Claude Hundley Jr. Interview 4



CLAUDE HUNDLEY JR.: Can I turn it this away to you? This is the handwriting on the letter and this is the -- the signature on the Bible. Well --

HELFAND: Do you know your daddy did it?

HUNDLEY: I know he did it. That's his handwriting. Sure is. Just look at it.

HELFAND: You know, that was really something we were really wondering about his handwriting. Not -- it's not -- his handwriting's different on that affidavit.

HUNDLEY: I don't know, but on the Bible here, on this letter here -- get a look at it -- but on this affidavit, it's -- I was looking at that -- see, 00:01:00it's a little -- I don't know -- that's what I was looking at on there. His -- see it's Claude, but H-U-N-D-L-A, look like [Hundalor?] or something, there, that's what I'm looking at there, different than right there. But this is -- I know this is Dallas [Moore?]. I know him and both of 'em come together.

HELFAND: It's something finding a Bible, knowing that it's --

HUNDLEY: Handwriting to get an old -- old Bible like this. I didn't even know they had one like it. She got it. I don't know how -- I guess, you know, back years ago that's how people kept records; in old Bibles, like this back then, and the South especially. So they probably put all the birthdates and everything down in 'em.

HELFAND: Can you just hold it like that? Does it -- did you almost need -- did you need to know that there was a Bible? Did you need to authenticate your daddy's handwriting?

HUNDLEY: I would have liked to. I'm glad we got the Bible so we can make sure it's his handwriting, authenticate it, you know. He -- he was -- he was ter- he could write but he was left-handed. You know, daddy -- my dad was left-handed. Mm-hm

HELFAND: Can you imagine your daddy -- you can put it down. Um, you can -- yeah. You can put it --

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HELFAND: -- community and the Mill Village here, and your relationship to the mill.

HUNDLEY: Well -- well the things is -- when the -- when the mill was there, they built that village just for the employees, but they ain't no black families done live down there. They don't let them live in the village at that time. We lived up what we called The Hill. Then it didn't have a street name, we -- just Hill, so, it just -- it just wasn't customary for a black family to live 00:04:00down there in the mill village. They had to work there, but they didn't take to them living in those little apartments they built down there. In later years, you know, I think they sold them to the employees after it was over.

HELFAND: And the jobs that you could all do or couldn't do?

HUNDLEY: They would like to say that -- I used it as a cotton trucker, is what we called it, but they was just yard hands. That's about all the -- I don't think no people -- no blacks back then work in the bobbin rooms and where they made the cloth. They just worked out in the yard. They trucked cotton, was about the size of it. They -- like I say, they -- Dallas and Dad, I know they -- I know they trucked cotton 'cause they used to tell about how stout Dallas was. He was a pretty good man, Dallas Moore.

HELFAND: And what was the relationship with the other, white workers? Do you 00:05:00know? Can you imagine?

HUNDLEY: I know they had a pretty good relationship with some. I can't -- can't -- I couldn't say, but I know some of the employees that worked with them, they had a pretty good relationship with 'em. But like I say, all of 'em, I wouldn't -- I wouldn't know.

HELFAND: So is this the first time -- I mean, the fact that, you know, that your daddy and Claude, we don't know what -- I haven't been able to find out if they were members of the union or they weren't.

HUNDLEY: (inaudible)

HELFAND: I don't know, but maybe you could -- I don't know. I mean, maybe you could just even help me. Maybe you could just say, look, I don't know -- does this mean that they were members of the union? I don't know, but it means that they were part -- that they had a relationship to the union in some ways.

HUNDLEY: I'm sure they -- from what I can gather they did, but I don't know whether they actually got a union or not.

HELFAND: They had a local union.

HUNDLEY: They had a local union, so -- I never did hear him talk about him being part of the union. I never have heard him say that. I really didn't. But if they had a union, he worked there in later years, I'm pretty sure he'd had to be part of it.

HELFAND: But it seems like at that time they were part of -- they -- they had some connection to the union just because they signed this affidavit.

HUNDLEY: Affidavit, mm-hm.

HELFAND: Could -- you know, is there -- could you -- could you say that for me?

HUNDLEY: (laughs) Say that?

HELFAND: I mean -- I guess -- I just -- I -- I only have questions. I don't have any answers. But those affidavits are very interesting because it means that they had some kind of --

HUNDLEY: Connection with the union.

HELFAND: Right. Maybe you could -- why don't you pick up those and you could read them out loud, and you could tell me that. I'm gonna sit down.

HUNDLEY: Read them?

HELFAND: Yes. You could -- you could even say, "So you're telling me that this -- this is what they filled out when the strike was over," and you could read it out loud.

HUNDLEY: So this is what they filled out when the strike was over. I'm reading the National Recovery Administration, Complaints or Violations of Code or Fair Competition, for the Cotton Textile Trade Industry. Tenth -- this is 10th and 13th of '34. Guntersville, Alabama. Let's see -- "(inaudible) complaints from respondents to Saratoga Victory Mills, Guntersville, Alabama. Textile workers. Principal product produced, processed or sold: cotton cloth. 00:08:00Principal sales was from yard hand. Name of complainant: Claude Hundley. Town, Guntersville, Alabama. Nature of Complaint, state (inaudible) to indicate a clear violation of some definition, provision of the code to which respondent is subject. I often distract but over we went back to our job, but they wouldn't let us near the mill. Held us off with machine guns. Colored men." So what I'm saying is, if they wasn't -- if they was part of it, and then after it was over -- after it was over and they went back to their job, they wouldn't hire 'em back. They held 'em off with machine guns and they -- he was -- he's making a statement of colored mens.

HELFAND: I guess they wanted to identify that these two --

HUNDLEY: These two men are just colored men that wrote this letter. But they -- it seemed to me that they was part of it though, that's what I'm saying. I guess they had to be part of it. Just those two, 'cause these were the only two full-time colored employees that they had at the mill at that time, so they had to be part of it. And I guess they just -- I don't know.

HELFAND: I don't know either.

HUNDLEY: You got me there.

HELFAND: But it's really --

HUNDLEY: In interesting.

HELFAND: - it's interesting.

HUNDLEY: Mm-hm.

HELFAND: So, does it -- it seems like your father and Dallas, they were having -- with some kind of a different kind of a relationship with the white workers.

HUNDLEY: Workers at the mill at that time.

HELFAND: Could you -- could you say that or talk about that? Take my words and put them in your own language?

HUNDLEY: You have to enlighten me there a little bit now.

HELFAND: I'm -- based on that letter, the first letter that he wrote about -- he wrote about the black workers and the white workers.

HUNDLEY: White workers.

HELFAND: In a sense. And here, he must be working with the white union -- with the union, in some way, if he signed that affidavit. So it -- so all -- what I'm saying is, it seems like this is a moment of time where your father is having a different kind of --

HUNDLEY: A good -- a good -- a good really a good relationship with 'em then, I'm thinking. With some of the workers. I don't know about all of them, but you know if he -- if him and Dallas was part of that union and then they wrote this letter, this grievance -- I'm saying it a grievance or letter -- and then they go back and they won't let 'em have their job back, then they 00:11:00had to be part of it and they had to be working with the white workers to get 'em -- to -- to, you know to do something like that. Course, over a period of time, I -- like I said, I don't -- I really wish I knew the answer, but I don't -- on what happened after that. But I do know that he went back to work at the mill a year or two later. I know he worked there some more. Him and Dallas both, 'cause Dallas was working there when he passed. And my dad left -- I was ten years old when he left, and then after that he left here.

HELFAND: What do you think caused the changed? Do you think it was Roosevelt? Do you think it was --

HUNDLEY: I think Roosevelt was the change. President Roosevelt. But in '32 when he took office, we was -- everybody was on what, WPA? And I think he made a big change in this country.

HELFAND: And what about this -- this change in attitude?

HUNDLEY: You know, change time -- change comes with time. I think people, as time went on, they seemed to get -- work- you know, get close in relation you work better with people. I don't know how to -- how to state it, but I'm just stating that out there at that mill especially, they had -- they had pretty good relationships out there in a sense, that I know of, 'cause I was out there a whole lot. I don't know. I don't know how to work that thing, I'll be honest with you.

JAMIE STONEY: Judy?

HELFAND: Yeah?

JAMIE STONEY: I think a microphone fell.

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HELFAND: You were talking about being shocked?

HUNDLEY: Yeah. When you called about that letter it shocked me, it sure did. I didn't realize that he had anything -- wrote a letter like that. And after talking with ya, and getting back together -- and I talked to people, two or three people that I did -- that I knew, the younger people out in the village, and they enlightened me on some of it. And then you came down and then we went out and talked to some of 'em, and it just was amazing that he wrote a letter back in -- and what's amazing is about him writing back in '33 on the civil rights -- for his rights. Well you can say it'd be a civil right, the same thing back in that period of time, 'cause in the south, for a man to write a letter and sign his name, especially a black man for a union was something unheard of, really unthought-of.

HELFAND: What could happen to 'em?

HUNDLEY: Find out -- you know, they had what you call Ku Klux Klan, they'd hang you, black people, back then for stuff like that. They would.

HELFAND: So what do you think gave your father -- and here's my question. What do you think gave your father the courage at that time to do it?

HUNDLEY: What I think that gave him the courage? Prove his self, he's a man and he has any right in this country as any other man. That's what I think, and that's what I feel. No matter if he's green, gray or what, you're a man in this country, say everybody have the same rights, so he wrote the letter. I find I -- I really respect him for doing that.

HELFAND: In that period of time -- I mean I know you were just a little boy, but that NRA, what do you think that NRA and President Roosevelt was saying to him?

HUNDLEY: Saying to him?

HELFAND: That's what I mean by, what else was going on at that time?

HUNDLEY: I -- I think that the President was telling not only -- was telling all free men that they have a right for fair wages as they -- as any other person did, is what I'm saying. And when they put it in effect and they wasn't using it, so he -- to make sure he wrote 'em a letter to find out. But the President was telling him that you have a right for eight hours of work just like -- and the same pay as any other man in this country.

HELFAND: You know he got a -- a response?

HUNDLEY: Yeah? What?

HELFAND: It's there.

HUNDLEY: Excuse me. Let me get the -- get the response behind you.

HELFAND: Yeah.

HUNDLEY: There, OK. Yeah, this is the response from -- this is from the -- huh? I don't know the -- the response (inaudible) Claude E. Hundley, Guntersville, Alabama. "Dear Mr. Hundley, to acknowledge receipt -- receipt of your letter attached hereto are two mimeographed sheets which we ask you to read carefully." " -- of the textile code, the article -- all is set for proceeding (inaudible) for all complaints arising from the stretch out for (inaudible) any other word and condition." "Two and three of the code, definition of exemption from the code, agreed upon and published by Cotton 00:17:00Textiles Advisory Committee. After reading the enclosed extract from the code, you are in doubt. As to [receiving?], the Committee would be glad to have you write again. Yours very truly, the Textile (inaudible) Industrial Relation Board, Robert E. [Barry?], Chairman, Joy D. Barry, and B.F. [Greer?]." So they get -- they -- they responded to him about so he had a right to -- undoubtedly he must have got a little -- must have got some -- somebody felt some -- shook somebody's mind up right there, 'cause they wrote him a letter back.

HELFAND: He got some mimeographed sheets.

HUNDLEY: He got some mimeographed sheets from -- from -- he got them from the -- from the committee, from the textile committee, yeah. So -- undoubtedly they 00:18:00must have been kind of impressed with the letter themselves, I would say, for doing that.

HELFAND: I don't know if they did any more than that.

HUNDLEY: No, undoubtedly -- (inaudible)

HELFAND: What?

HUNDLEY: I say, you never know. I don't know. I never did -- I never know where it got him, but probably did, 'course he was -- they had kept his (inaudible) old records, but I -- you know, small -- I didn't know, but if he got a respond he kept 'em somewhere.

HELFAND: Now, you never heard about the strike. You never heard about this letter. I know, between you and me, that Daddy was away for a very long time.

HUNDLEY: That's right.

HELFAND: But do you have anything to say about, you know, maybe this is something he never told you, why do you think that, what it means?

HUNDLEY: Well, I would like to say this: I would like to show my appreciation to 00:19:00you for enlightening me on some things that my father did. See, I never would have knowed that. I never woulda knowed about the letter or anything if it hadn't been for you. So, I'm appreciative of you for that. And after you enlightened me on it, that makes me respect him more, the write -- letting me know that he wrote a letter and you going -- I don't know how much trouble it is to dig -- go to the archives and dig up stuff like that, but I'm pretty -- but a pretty tiresome job. I don't think I would like it, but I appreciate you for doing that, and I appreciate you for coming and talking with me and letting me know that my dad did something like that.

HELFAND: What do you think happens to the South or the area when people don't know that their forefathers and foremothers did stuff like that?

HUNDLEY: Not knowing something like that, you -- I'm saying, you just have to 00:20:00go -- you're either on the (inaudible) or you're going backward. 'Cause see, if nobody ever enlightened you on nothing like that, you think your forefathers or fathers never did anything for you, so you just say well, he just was in the world and he never contributed anything to society. So to come up with something like that, to let you know that back then, during the '30s, that we had black people with nerve enough to write a letter and put their name on it in the South for something like that, is -- it's wonderful to me. I just respect them a lot. Not only my father; I respect any black man that did that.

HELFAND: What about the white men?

HUNDLEY: I respect them that -- them on it, too. I really do. I just -- I'm not a fellow to look at color. I respect anybody that that would speak out for his rights, but you know, in later years this come to me. But to make me respect my father more, was to you enlighten me on what he had did back in the 00:21:00'30s, and that made me respect him more in that sense. And then the white workers that stood up for their rights, I respect them the same way -- of course, I -- I don't know all of 'em, but I still respect 'em.

HELFAND: What is so intriguing about your father's letter is that, at the time he was looking out for the white workers.

HUNDLEY: Well he was looking out for white and black workers, I say, 'cause he didn't -- he didn't just specify a color, he said white -- colored and white on that last paragraph down there. So, they -- the ones that were working the yard, I'm saying that the white workers that was working in the yard with them was getting the same (inaudible) treatment as the black workers was. So, he was looking out for both of 'em when he wrote that letter there.

HELFAND: Is that something -- I mean, the fact that all of a sudden they were concerned more about class and they were concerned about economics than they were about race?

HUNDLEY: I would say, the ones that were working out there, they wasn't concerned too much about race. They was concerned about economics. Back in them times, you know, the textile workers -- and especially in Guntersville, that was about the only place that people had to work to make a living. So, something like that -- if you wasn't farming. So you had to put race aside, especially if you're working out in the yard, and then look for the econ- the economy. But then, they might put it aside, but they still keep it in the back of their minds. They ain't gonna never throw that race out of them completely, I'll just tell you straight up. They're not gonna do that.

HELFAND: But race was part of it.

HUNDLEY: It had to be. Sure was.

HELFAND: Because some people could do some jobs --

HUNDLEY: And some -- and they -- they --

HELFAND: Could you describe that to me?

HUNDLEY: They -- well see, back then there, all of your -- I call it backbreaking jobs, your colored workers got it. You know, they had certain jobs the white men would not do, and so they had the colored workers for it. And so, that's what I'm saying on -- especially on those kind of -- that kind of work. They just had their special jobs for them. There wasn't no white people gonna do it. 'Cause I remember -- I can remember this, right here -- I don't guess there's that much to it, but I remember in Guntersville years ago when a white man wouldn't work on a garbage truck. He wouldn't pick up garbage back in the '30s, but they do now. They work -- they work everywhere.

HELFAND: So in the mill, how did race break down in the mill? You know what I mean?

HUNDLEY: They -- you didn't have any -- what I'm saying, you didn't have any black people in no office work. You didn't have 'em up in the mill 00:24:00working in bobbin or nothing like that. All you had, them working in the yard trucking cotton. I call it backbreaking work. That's all they did. And maybe you might have had some to clean -- sweep up, once or twice. That would be about all. They didn't work up in those -- up in the inside that mill, period. There -- well, even later years I don't remember any working up in there. All they ever knowed after they left, they worked in the back, back at trucking cotton. That's what the black people always did out there at that mill.

HELFAND: So if they were -- so -- so -- and why was it? Why was it like that? What did it mean for the white workers? Because being a textile worker wasn't --

HUNDLEY: Well, he'd just say -- if he didn't truck cotton, he was just a step above the man that trucked cotton. That's all it was. He was just a little bit above him. That's all it was, and that's what they kept 'em up 00:25:00that way, just -- 'cause he gonna be a step above the black man period. And so, that made him a step above it if he didn't have to get out there and get on the same level he did and truck cotton. So, he kept him down there and he worked in the mill or whatever, whatever the case may be.

HELFAND: But, doing mill work, I mean, that wasn't like a real high class job in Guntersville, was it?

HUNDLEY: Back then it had to be. Sure it was hot. That was -- a millworker then, they was -- 'cause that was the only work in this town. That only -- the only mills here was that old cotton mill, those (inaudible) cotton mill, see? And people worked there, that worked in the mill, they was -- we'll say middle class. If you worked in the office you was a little step higher.

HELFAND: I've heard this term, "lint-head."

HUNDLEY: You got me. Lint-head. That's -- that -- those are the ones that come out of those bobbin rooms where all that cotton flies, you know. But see now, I don't even know of any that worked in there or -- all I know of they worked out there on the truck -- like I say. See, back then they didn't have no lift to pick cotton up. You had to use hand trucks to truck it, and (inaudible). And so, that's what they did mostly back then.

HELFAND: So that's what your daddy used to be when worked at (inaudible)?

HUNDLEY: Trucking cotton and working on the yard.

HELFAND: Could you --

HUNDLEY: They say yard work. That's -- that's all it is to yard work, just trucking cotton, you know. If you're ever familiar with the old mill, they -- they unload it on the lower side at the railroad track, and then you had to bring it through the wire house up into the bobbin room, you know, for the people to push it out and put it on the bobbins (inaudible).

HELFAND: Do you think your father told anybody that he wrote this letter?

HUNDLEY: I believe he would have told some people, sure. I sure do. Like, I had a uncle, he might -- worked out there, they was pretty close. He coulda talked to him. [Joel?], and had Uncle [Earlyhue?] that worked out there. They was awful close, too.

HELFAND: But I -- I -- I spoke to Joel and he never --

HUNDLEY: He never heard of it? Well nobody else that I know that he would have told then, unless it was -- 'cause I talked to my Auntie when she lived on (inaudible). She didn't remember anything of it. She didn't even remember the strike. But see, they lived out -- way out in the country back then and people couldn't -- no transportation. You couldn't get to town --