Burns Cox, Grady Kilgo, Eula McGill, and James Interviews



JAMIE STONEY: Rolling.

JANET IRONS: Back in '34, Gadsden wasn't the only place un-- Let's do it again. Back in '34, Gadsden wasn't the only place that had a union. Uh, there were other places in Alabama unionized and there was a state council of textile workers, and they had meetings, and you went to them. Burns, didn't you go? Something like that.

JAMIE STONEY: Don't react so quick at the end. Give us a few bit -- a bit of that Dan Rather look at the end. Seriously.

IRONS: Do I have to do it again?

JAMIE STONEY: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: Don't look away quite so fast.

IRONS: OK. Back in '34, Gadsden wasn't the only place that had a union. Uh, there were unions, uh, organized in mills across northern Alabama, and they formed a state council of textile workers, and they had meetings back in '34, and you went to one of those meetings, Burns, didn't you? What was it like? 00:01:00Describe the feeling that you had when you met people from the other mills.

GEORGE STONEY: OK now. Uh, you're listening to them. You're nodding. You're amused.

JAMIE STONEY: Not -- not as animated. More like -- there you go.

GEORGE STONEY: Just still for a while.

JAMIE STONEY: Switch hands. Lean on the other hand. Now, track your eyes back and forth across -- yeah. Back towards camera. Good. Good. And now, nice...over there -- effervescent kinda crack up.

IRONS: Oh, god. (laughs) I don't know if I can do that.

JAMIE STONEY: You did it perfectly. You just did it.

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JAMIE STONEY: -is for the past stuff you've just seen. This is [Whirltone?]. 00:02:00Or as the English say, [Atmose?]. (long pause) OK. Where are the cicadas when you want them? You want them, you cannot --

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GEORGE STONEY: The problem is --

JAMIE STONEY: Do it like -- (inaudible)

BURNS COX: I would have worked them -- I mean, third (inaudible) I've been working on the truck (inaudible) -- this is getting on my nerves -- really on my nerves. (laughter)

GRADY KILGO: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let her see old Ricky and doctor her up. Can't do that. (laughs) She still got her car?

GEORGE STONEY: Sorry, gentlemen. I wanted you to stop there and talk about --

COX: Well, why didn't you tell us to stop?

GRADY: We couldn't stop. We had --

COX: You didn't say stop, you said walk.

GEORGE STONEY: I'm sorry. Could you do it again?

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M1: Y'all be quiet, Judy.

(pause)

JAMIE STONEY: So, you lived in this house how long?

GRADY: Been living -- I moved in that house in '41. Left there in '58.

GEOGRE STONEY: (inaudible)

JAMIE STONEY: What did it end up selling for?

GRADY: That house there sold for twenty-seven hundred dollars.

M1: Ask him again.

JAMIE STONEY: How much -- how much did the house sell for?

GRADY: Twenty-seven hundred dollars.

JAMIE STONEY: Twenty-seven hundred?

GRADY: Yeah.

JAMIE STONEY: But you didn't buy it.

GRADY: No, I didn't buy it.

JAMIE STONEY: How much did you pay for the house that you ended up buying?

GRADY: Twenty-eight hundred. Four-room house.

JAMIE STONEY: So, you fellas -- how long since you lived -- from '44 to '58 as neighbors?

GRADY: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: And you're still friends?

COX: Yeah.

GRADY: Yeah.

M1: Has the house changed much since you lived in it?

GRADY: Yeah, they built that on the back, back there. I just had a little three-room there's all I had when I let go of it.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. Thank you. Thank you, gentlemen.

COX: You don't -- you don't want me to tell how long I been living here.

GEORGE STONEY: You told us that. Remember, when you were inside?

JAMIE STONEY: Go ahead. I'm here.

GRADY: (laughs)

COX: I moved over here in nineteen and forty-four, and been in the house 'til now. But I'm up to sixty -- I mean, ninety-one. I been living in that house ever since nineteen and forty-four.

JAMIE STONEY: How much did you build onto it?

COX: I built one additional room, carports and improved it on the inside and all. Myself. And I bought the house.

JAMIE STONEY: So, it had running water and electric?

COX: It had running water and everything already in the house when I bought it. All.

JAMIE STONEY: Inside toilet and the whole bit?

COX: Yep. Inside toilet and the whole... and I give a total of probably thirty-four fifty for it when I bought it. Four-room house, but now that's five-room with additional big bath.

(pause)

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M1: Well, that's a bobcat. No tail.

JAMIE STONEY: Has it been rejected by a cat?

M1: No. Look at the cat. No tail. Bobcat. Those originated from Louisiana. (pause) (speaking to cat) Hi. Hi. How you doing?

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GEORGE STONEY: Come on.

COX: Me and Grady are site-seers on this trip.

GEORGE STONEY: Come on. (laughs)

GEORGE STONEY: Action.

GRADY: He can't hear you.

COX: I ain't no telling where he's going. (laughter)

JAMIE STONEY: Rolling.

GEORGE STONEY: Action! All right, sir.

EULA MCGILL: What in the tarnation is that?

JAMES: That's a hose nozzle.

MCGILL: Oh, I see. Yes.

JAMES: Fire hose nozzle, out of one of the outside units that they use when the mail -- if you had a real bad fire they could run in there and get these -- they were hooked to the hose already -- and all they had to do was train it on the fire, and turn on the valve, and it's ready to go.

MCGILL: That ain't copper is it?

JAMES: It's brass.

MCGILL: Brass.

GRADY: That's the one they didn't use -- they used way back counting now.

JAMES: Oh, yeah.

MCGILL: Somebody -- Briar's? company, ain't it? Stewart Briar's company, I believe. Stewart Briar's company?

JAMES: Elkhart.

MCGILL: Elkhart.

JAMES: Elkhart Brass and Manufacturing Company. Elkhart, Indiana.

MCGILL: Yeah.

GRADY: Why did you get that and where?

JAMES: Well, a friend of mine that worked for that Gadsden Water Department -- 00:08:00he's passed away now -- Curtis Johnson. Uh, had access to these and they were just gonna junk 'em, so he got two or three of 'em-

MCGILL: Lord, would junk 'em?

JAMES: He mounted that one, and brought it down here to me.

MCGILL: Well, wasn't that good?

JAMES: Said I just wanted to give you a -- something-

MCGILL: I wish I had a lawn full of junk of 'em. That's brass! You don't throw brass away.

JAMES: Said I've always thought about 'em, and I just wanted to give you something from the cotton mill.

GEORGE STONEY: Uh, what connection did you have with the cotton mill?

JAMES: Well, I started at the bottom. I run slubbers in the card room, and I learn to run cards and drawing. Then I learned later after the war to fix all the machinery and got to be a supervisor. Five years.

GEORGE STONEY: And your family?

JAMES: We're real close. All of my family worked in the mill. My wife, my father, my mother, and some of my brothers. Not all of them, but my grandfather and my grandmother worked until she got disabled. She was a Smith.

GEORGE STONEY: Do you have anything else, uh, rest left over from the mill?

JAMES: Uh, that's all that I have expect some papers that I have in there that -- the recommendation they gave me when they close and, uh, have a letter that when they merged was combing mills. Uh, Herman Cone wrote to the -- back to the people here. He was from Germany, and I have that letter in there.

GEORGE STONEY: Why are you saving it?

JAMES: Well, just something to keep from the -- it's historical value to me, and it's a -- well, I guess it's just something I like to keep. Just for remembrance from the old days.

GEORGE STONEY: Are there other people keeping things like this?

JAMES: Oh, yes, I'm sure. I don't know any particular right now except Mr. [Cox?], uh, Grady [Kilgo?], my friend here. I don't know how -- I've known Grady about as long as I've known anybody, I guess.

GRADY: (laughter) Yeah, we went back.

COX: Well, we was all born and raised -- the whole Kuduk family was born and raised right in (inaudible) here.

JAMES: Hold on.

GEORGE STONEY: What do you remember about the Kuduk family?

COX: Oh, I remember the Kuduk's used to have -- all of 'em were singers, and they'd go different places and sing. Uh, grandpa, he sang didn't he?

JAMES: Then he played the violin.

COX: Violin, and then his daddy and the rest of 'em -- the Kuduk family -- oh, what's goin'? And they was -- so they woulda -- Church of God down here.

JAMES: We had two quartets. My dad -- my dad, and two brothers, and one sister had what they call the older quarnet -- and, uh, quarnut -- quartet. And then two sisters and one brother, [Emmet?], [Tiffany?], Lucille, myself, had the junior quarnut -- quartet, and I played the guitar, and we all sang. We'd go out in the country here and before television got popular, and put on concert some Saturday night and then go back and sing all day on Sunday and have dinner on the ground. That's where the old saying, all-day dinner -- all-day singing 00:11:00and dinner on the ground -- we changed it to all-day dinner and singing-- (laughs)

MCGILL: Yeah, singing on the ground. (laughter)

JAMIE STONEY: Uh, you sang some for the union. Could you tell us about that?

JAMES: Well, we sang for, uh -- for all of our friends, Eric. I was in a, uh -- just a worker, and even though, uh, I was a got to be a supervisor, I never lost my friendship with the-

MCGILL: You's just still a worker, wasn't you?

JAMES: -the union people. That's right. I was just a -- just a worker. So I love Burns Cox and all the other boys just like I love the other people in the, in the, uh, management of the mill.

GEORGE STONEY: You were telling us about singing, uh, for the strike. Could you tell us about that?

JAMES: Yes, sir. I don't know how many times, but we sang once or twice a week for -- after we got started. Took a little while to get started. The strike was kind of a shock to start with, and then we got to having a good time down there. Some of 'em-

MCGILL: Is none -- all y'all singing any?

JAMES: Oh, yes. I sang at, uh -- I sang in the choir at Dwight Baptist Church, and I sang solos occasionally. I sang for the community center, senior citizens 00:12:00here in Gadsden, and I've sang for, uh, Masons over in Gadsden. Put on little short programs.

GEORGE STONEY: Just one more time. Could you tell us about, uh, singing at the strike?

JAMES: Yes. OK.

GEORGE STONEY: How old were you-

JAMES: We'd -- We'd -- We'd go to a gate and sing, and of course, that's been a long time ago. I don't remember the -- all the things we did. We did some gospel music, and we did some Jimmie Rodgers tune. "Life is Like a Mountain Railroad" I remember, and, uh, and "The Freight Train Blues" and, uh, some other Jimmie Rodgers number that I can't recall right now. It's been too long.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. Thank you very much.

JAMES: We'd go -- we'd go to three different -- they had three different gates there, and we'd go to this gate and sing a while, and then down to another one, sing a while, and then over to the third one and sing a while. So, we had a good time.

GEORGE STONEY: Thank you.

JAMES: You're welcome.

MCGILL: Let me ask you. Did you ever know [Roscoe Cochran?]

JAMES: Cochran? I knew some Cochrans, but I don't remember that name.

MCGILL: He was worked in the mill, uh, when I worked there about a year.

JAMES: I'm trying to think.

MCGILL: My girlfriend's uncle and, uh -- he was a boss in a spinning room. One spinning-- had two spinning rooms. I worked there. You know, I hated that jo-- Oh, god. I was a lousy spinner.

GRADY: James, we'll see you, boy.

MCGILL: I'll tell you what's the truth-

GEORGE STONEY: OK, gang

MCGILL: I'll tell you what's the truth. I begged him to get me work somewhere else, you know? And after that, I went to Birmingham and went to work at an awful mill. Oh, god. I worked there about six years, and -- well, wasn't nothing else to do.

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MCGILL: Summer vacation once our men got to (inaudible) and got us a job working over the summer. Was fourteen.

JAMES: Yeah?

MCGILL: She told us.

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GEORGE STONEY: And how old were you?

JAMES: 16-years old in 1936, and I worked until 1959 when it closed.

MCGILL: He's a young one. He's a spring chicken.

JAMES: I'm 71 now, but I spent 23 years in the -- in a machine shop after that. Then 23 years there. Two years in the Navy.

M1: Appreciate it.

JAMES: Thank you.

JAMIE STONEY: Did they at least put you in the machinists-mate position?

JAMES: Well, I -- I studied for that. After World War II, I went to trade school here in Gadsden and studied.

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GEORGE STONEY: All right. So, tell us what was hit in different places.

COX: Well, right now, we're heading back towards the side of the mill. The old mill running around -- over here. Down this way. Long ways this way. About twenty-five yards more this was a mill place. The biggest part of the mill was back over here, where the car lot is parked now. Where the cars are left. The lake was on the other side, but this mill had buildings all down 00:15:00through here. All the way through. We had the big -- big mill, and the other mill here.

GEORGE STONEY: Where was the -- the gate to the different gates?

COX: The gates was up here on the square. You see, that's what I was trying to tell you. We had one gate -- down here at Oak Street Gate. We had the Lake Bank Gate. We had the Coal Gate. We had the, uh, mail -- I mean, uh, the railroad gates, and then we had the main gate is square. There's probably five or six gates so people went in. We had a gate right here on the side of this road. This was Kyle Avenue then, and it come right outta there and go into the mill here. The mill was sitting in this -- this biggest spot in here. It was all took over by the whole cotton mill.

GEORGE STONEY: And what did they use the lakes for?

COX: They used the lakes for pumping water. This mill here used to be run on 00:16:00steam. Two big steam engines pulled this mill. They pumped the water out of Black Creek and put it up in the bell tower, and it was transferred from the bell tower down to the boiler room, and fired to make steam to run the plants with.

GEORGE STONEY: And when you were here, they weren't running by steam, so what did they use the lakes for?

COX: They just -- they left -- the lakes just went down. Now, they wanted to use steam when I went to come to work here. We had two big steam engines up there, pulling the number one mill and the number two mill. Run by cables. Rope cables. So...

GEORGE STONEY: Did they ever use the lakes for swimming or fishing?

COX: Well, yeah. We -- we swum in the lake down here. Now, this is part of the old lake over here. We're getting down towards it now, but it was part of the old lake down here. Down there you -- down there. All this has been filled. When this was a mill, up -- the biggest part of the mill was right straight up 00:17:00and down here. Now-

GEORGE STONEY: Is there any part of the mill left?

COX: No part of the mill is left here at all. Now, this gate here, we come right outta them there, went through this gate here, closer to Lake Bank, and went into the mill over here. This is what they called Lake Bank Gate. Oh, come right in here. And the next gate up there was where the, uh, what do you call it -- what -- Wagon Gate up here.

GEORGE STONEY: Where was the railroad tracks?

COX: Railroad tracks run down on the other side of this building, and on the other side of the building. The mill set in the middle, divided. Down on the...

GEORGE STONEY: So, the railroad track ran right between the -- in the middle of the mill?

COX: One down one side and one up the other, and if you go back around the corner, I'll give it to you again.

M1: OK. We'll turn on the air for just a second.

COX: On this side. And this down through here is what they called the Lake Bank. We had a gate right here. It went in up there. The railroad gates -- one of 'em come in from up there at that side of the building, and the other come in from the other side of the building. It come down that street up there. Then we had another track across -- come from L & N up here and they'd do the switching in here when it happened. Here we've what we call the Coal Gate. (pause) Come right in here into the old Coal Gate, and all this here was -- was the mill property in here. All of it.

GEORGE STONEY: Was there a fence around it?

COX: It was a complete wire fence all around except the lakes.

GEORGE STONEY: Can you remember when that fence went up?

COX: Uh, I don't remember just exactly when the fence went up, but it was put up from the (inaudible) to the square, down here, back around to the Lake Bank, and they didn't fence in the Lake Bank until this kid got drownded, then they fenced it in, and it was fenced in -- the lake was fenced in then. But now the railroad tracks come right down where that building's at up here, and went in here. The other railroad track come down, parted up there -- right up somewhere there -- parted, and come down onto the other side of the mill over here. But the shopping center don't take you in -- much as a biggest part of this vacant space you see in here, was originally the mill. 'Cause you come right out of the mill office over here, and you come into what the -- Wall Street here. Yeah, right across the street from the mill was Wall Street, and part of the 00:20:00mill was set -- all of the mill was set right in this vacant space in here. The whole thing.

GEORGE STONEY: How do you feel when you see this parking lot replacing the mill?

COX: Well, it makes me feel bad for it being down, but in -- way it turned out, it's better for everybody. Way I look at it.

GEORGE STONEY: Why?

COX: Now, this -- this place up here was a sidewalk down here, and the mill run about forty-foot from the sidewalk over there. This was part of the mill territory here. All this down here was mill, and we had another gate down here -- right where that stop sign is -- it went out and the people from that side of town went there. And then we got another gate down here where Oak Street -- they call it the Oak Street Gate. You just have to go back out, get on, and come back around. Or you can go down this way and come up, if you wanted. But 00:21:00this is what they called the [Front Dummy?] in one of the side gates over here on the -- on, uh, Kyle Avenue. That side.

GEORGE STONEY: Why did you say it was better for everybody for the mill to go down?

COX: The younger generations got out and got better jobs. Our old people suffered some. No doubt about it, some of our people suffered, but if a young generation stayed on in there, they'd been in the same condition they are in now. Course, they'd been a little better off. It'd been more money for 'em. Hell. And, oh, that van you see turned up there? That was a (inaudible) lake, piled over into that pile. There's a ditch behind that lake. It come down there -- this street -- and the old Oak Street Gate was right down here in this clump of bushes -- the houses right down there.

M1: OK. We're gonna cool it off again.

COX: But the mill -- this mill sits on this property. The biggest part of this property here is where the mill used to sit. Some of it just -- just is farther over.

M1: Anything down here?

COX: Nothing going -- just -- If you wanna do it, I'll show you (inaudible) down there and then you can do it.

M1: George?

GEORGE STONEY: Yes, son. Kill it.

COX: Now, this is still- This is -- this is -- the lake's up here. Up here, and down here, was the lake. You see that trim of trees around here? That was the old lake. The old Lake Bank used to be right here. Turn direct right.

M1: I'm sorry.

GEORGE STONEY: Could you tell us about the library before we go?

M1: Let me -- hold -- hold on a second. I can't hear anything, and George, I can't hear you when you're speaking to me when I have my headphones on.

GEORGE STONEY: I'm sorry. Uh, remember the library down here?

M1: There we go.

COX: Yes, I remember the library.

GEORGE STONEY: Uh, tell us about it.

COX: I played at that library when I was a kid. It was a library, and we'd go up there and get books and read 'em. It was an old constructed building -- it 00:23:00was built by Nichols in the 18, uh, nineteen-hundred and something. I forget that -- go through this thing up here -- but it was built by one of the founders of the mill, Nichols. They called it the Nichols Library.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, good.

M1: OK.

GEORGE STONEY: Now we can go.

M1: All right, just a second. Let's cool it off here. I don't know about anybody else, but I -- I'm t-

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COX: And this is what they call the old Lake Bank there. Built up. Big ditch there, rolled around and it looped around, and comes out down here. See, that ditch down behind there? That was the old mill lake ditch, but it was still the mill lake because I used to live right over in that corner house. And I go up here and go in swimming -- it's the lake -- when I was living there.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, uh-

M1: You gonna tell us that again?

GEORGE STONEY: That should-

M1: About you swimming in the lake over here?

COX: When I was living over here on Comnock -- that big house right there on the 00:24:00green one -- I was, oh, about eight or nine-years old, used to come up here and swim up here in the old bath house. We called it the Cold Lake. We had the lakes, uh, adjoining, but the hot lake and the cold lake was separated. They had a walk cross there. That's where they called the Lake Bank Gate. Where we went in. The Cold Lake was down here where we went swimming. We had the women's bathhouse, and the men's bathhouse. It's wooden-bottomed, and everything, and that's where I learned how to swim. Back in the nineteen-eighty some odd. Nineteen.

GEORGE STONEY: 'Kay. You can turn on the conditioning.

M1: 'Kay.

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COX: Still part of the old Lake Bank there.

M1: Turn right.

COX : Now, you gotta picture of the [Colburn's?] vanity house, where she 00:25:00bought her house and all. And it's all up here, and if you can stop up here, I'll sorta give you an estimation about where it was at. The store, the hamburger joint, the military shop, and the, uh, news table, and everything.

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M1: Are you ready?

JAMIE STONEY: Rolling.

COX: Down on the corner over here, used to be a store there. The next building was a store. The next building was a military shop where it is, and the building down there where the cleaner's at used to be the old (inaudible) table, and then we had an old garage down below there. And the left-hand side over here, we had PC Smith Studio and everything. Course, all that burnt down all, but the old (inaudible) table, hamburger joints, and the grocery store, sat 00:26:00right up in here. This is what was known as Canterbury Station.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, these two, uh -- two-story building to your right. What is that?

COX: The what?

GEORGE STONEY: The building over on your right.

COX: Oh, yeah. That's the old Martin Drugstore building. It was originally -- it was built at the -- at the far down here. When they built back, he built it up here on this corner.

M1: Which way should I take? A right or left?

COX: Right.

M1: Right.

COX: Go on around. (pause) I turn in here, and this would be on Oak Street. This is where I done my picketing down here. I don't know where, uh, what kinda shape it's in now. Very few houses on here, but the mill fence run right around the corner of that there. We done out picketing right down here in 00:27:00that thicket there. The mill fence used to come by here -- come down here -- and we did our picketing along right in this spot here. What we called the Oak Street Gate. This was it right here. (pause) But here, used to be Kyle Avenue. It was named after old Colonel Kyle, and it was sidewalk from Canterbury to the square, right up the side of the mill fence. Turn back to right.

JAMIE STONEY: 'Kay.

(pause)

GEORGE STONEY: Could you say that again about Kyle Avenue?

COX: This is old Kyle Avenue. It's Meighan Boulevard now, but it used to be the Kyle. We had the sidewalk. The sidewalk's still there. It run right straight from here to the corner up yonder, and that's where they turned in to go out to the mill.

GEORGE STONEY: Why was it called Kyle Avenue?

COX: It named after Colonel Kyle. The man that donated the property to Dwight Manufacturing Company to build their building on. He's a big real estate man. Colonel Kyle, the one that donated the land for that mill to be bought -- big build on. But it (inaudible) is the biggest part of the mill, you see. It been took over now. This -- the mill used to come closer over up here to this walk -- this sidewalk in there -- here. You can go back to the right here. The Wall Street is still where it's at. The mill office used to sit right across the street over there. Not far from this corner. Right over there. You went in there and then you went into the mill. Railroad Gate come down, about where Big B's at, this way. The other railroad track come in on the other side of the, uh, church -- I mean, that, uh, medical place down there -- and went into the far side of the mill. Well, they had to pull the train in there, then unload 00:29:00their coal on a shoot to fire the bores -- the coal burn. And they had a railroad track that went around to this side of the mill, and went around on the back side of the mill.

GEORGE STONEY: Why did those fellas sit down on the tracks?

COX: It's right along in here. Somewhere in here. The track is right straight up this other street. It went right straight up this street. They switched up there. One building come down, but it's a health building here. They went in, and the other one went on the other side of the mill on this side. But that's up there -- they building there -- they're building just about where the old bowling alley was built. Right there in the corner. Go up here and I'll show you. Maybe you can get a little better direction.