Clyde Ware and Doyle Johns Interviews

JUDITH HELFAND: Are we ready?

GEORGE STONEY: No.

HELFAND: Jamie? Well, we'll be ready in a sec. (beeping)

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CLYDE WARE: Uh, did [you?] ever work in a cotton mill? They -- they was treated like [slum?]. And, uh -- they was treated awful. That's why I thought they needed a union. And, uh, I still say union helped 'em. And, uh, uh, in a lot of ways. Because, uh, all textile -- that used to run over all of the [help?]. You -- you take -- it's awful the way some of them garment workers' condition they worked up in them -- down in the basements, in New York, New Jersey, uh, be a little hole down there in the wall, be 10 to 12 of 'em down there smothering to death in the little [hot place?]. But the...

GEORGE STONEY: What about conditions in the mills here?

WARE: They was air-conditioned. And it's kept cool.

HELFAND: No...

GEORGE STONEY: But that was afterwards, later.

WARE: Yeah.

HELFAND: In the '30s.

WARE: Uh, see, uh, see, in the '40s, built that new addition on the --

GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

WARE: -- [very end?]. They built...

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HELFAND: OK.

GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.

HELFAND: So, I want to...

GEORGE STONEY: (inaudible)

HELFAND: Yeah?

GEORGE STONEY: The business about his being a bodyguard.

HELFAND: Yeah. Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

HELFAND: You told me that people said you were Albert Cox's bodyguard. OK?

WARE: Oh, which people --

HELFAND: Now I want --

WARE: -- tell -- said that?

M1: Just wait a second here.

HELFAND: OK. I'm just gonna ask...

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HELFAND: ...folks.

WARE: Uh, reason I didn't join the union, I didn't work in the mill. But I believed the employees needed a union. I know what the union stood for, because (inaudible) pipe shops around here, [that?] belonged to the union. And i-- it had better working conditions. And, uh...

HELFAND: Can we stop for a second?

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WARE: (inaudible). Mollie Down. Uh, (creaking chair) [Cox?]. And, uh, Alice Berry. Old Cardinal Hall. [Put out pampas?]. They filled that Cardinal Hall full. And I got up, John Dean (clears throat) wanting the people to vote to strike. I got up and objected. [They?] said, "What's your objection?" I said, "Has anybody been up to management, ask 'em if they'd accept the union? And ask 'em if they would comply with our contract [if?] we'd present them?" "You set down, you don't know what you're talking about." [They?] wanted to stay out 13 weeks. Roosevelt was the president the United States, issued a ultimatum that all textile worker employees call off the 00:03:00strike and go back on your job like you come out. But Dwight wouldn't accept it that way. They wanted people to come through the employment office and ask for a job. And I refused to do it, because I had a job, when [I was told my?] come out, 13 weeks before that. And they want me to go back and ask for a job? I -- I don't believe in that, and I still don't believe in it. If, uh -- if -- if -- if you're working for me, and for some reason or another, you quit and want to come back, uh, and I got room for ya, uh, you -- you won't have to go back through a employment office. 'Cause I already got your record there. But, uh, Dwight didn't see it that way. 'Cause they -- they didn't want 00:04:00it that way. They -- they'd make you flip -- if you's on the blackball list, and, uh, they hired you, you signed the sheet of paper, you'd never join a union. There ain't? no organization that would interfere with their operation. And, uh, if you didn't sign that, you wouldn't last two more weeks. [It was?] Addison in that blackball now, that -- uh, they asked him if he belonged to that damn union, he told 'em yeah. They fired him right then. I think his name S.N. -- F.M. Addison, I believe.

HELFAND: So, we...

GEORGE STONEY: Beautiful.

HELFAND: OK. So...

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HELFAND: OK.

WARE: [Well, she lives?] in Birmingham. She...

HELFAND: Can you say "Eula McGill lives in Birmingham"?

WARE: Yup. And, uh...

HELFAND: No, I need -- I need -- like, from...

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WARE: On the International's payroll. At that time she lived in Birmingham. She was working on employees, old Vander-- uh, out on Vanderbilt Road -- and 00:05:00Avondale Mills. [There was?] old (inaudible) [Hawkem?] out on Vanderbilt Road, and Avondale Mills on 1st Avenue and 43rd Street.

GEORGE STONEY: Tell us something about her.

WARE: Eula McGill? I didn't know her too much. I went to school with her, and that's about all I know about her. And, uh, she was pretty well outspoken herself. And, uh, I presume she still lives down there somewhere.

HELFAND: Can we stop for a sec?

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

HELFAND: I wonder -- I mean, you must've kn--

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WARE: (pause) I believe it was taken around there at that back gate. Looks like it might've been taken around there at that back gate.

GEORGE STONEY: During the strike?

WARE: Yeah -- yeah. (engine revving) When she -- she'd come over [here?], for some reason, she visited over here several times, uh, while I was onsite.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. OK, just hold it for a...

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WARE: Uh, Charles [Encan's?] wife, and myself, we got ever piece imported goods out of all the store -- Kresge's, Walmart, Kmart, uh, Woolworth -- they didn't have another piece but they'd go to Birmingham and buy. We got every bit --

GEORGE STONEY: Hmm.

WARE: -- took out.

GEORGE STONEY: [Right?].

WARE: We had a time of getting it out. Some of the managers had to get in touch with New York and get authority to take it out. But, uh...

GEORGE STONEY: That was later, though?

WARE: Yeah.

HELFAND: Clyde. Let's go back to 1934, and you're on this car, with Al-- you're in a car with Albert Cox, and you're traveling from one community to another, trying to get people to come out, giving organizing speeches --

WARE: Uh, Albert Cox --

HELFAND: (inaudible; overlapping dialogue) people [up?]...

WARE: -- was the one trying to get 'em to come out.

HELFAND: OK. (throat clearing) Tell us what you were doing. And just describe what it was like.

WARE: Uh, I'd just going around with him. Uh, most, though, just, uh, help him, if he needed help. And, uh, help him drive. 'Cause, uh, sometimes, uh, he'd drive from here to Columbus, his home, and then he'd turn around and come right back to Birmingham. And all -- in half a day.

HELFAND: Was it dangerous out there, driving as an organizer --

WARE: No, no.

HELFAND: -- going from town to town?

WARE: We never was threatened.

HELFAND: Were you prepared?

WARE: Well, I had a pistol. And he had a pistol. Uh, I got one now. Keep it in the car. And you better keep one in the car. You don't, somebody's 00:08:00liable to stop you one day, and you wish you had one.

GEORGE STONEY: Why did they call -- why did they call you, uh, Albert Cox's bodyguard?

WARE: Uh, (laughs) I don't know where that come from. (laughs)

GEORGE STONEY: Uh, why did he need a bodyguard?

WARE: He didn't need no bodyguard. He had a pistol and I had a pistol, for pro-- self-protection. Uh, you -- you take, uh, these popsicles -- they'd wayl-- waylay you at night and shoot your car. But, uh, I had it for protection.

GEORGE STONEY: Who were the popsicles?

WARE: Company union. That's what we called 'em, popsicles. Company union. The ones that went over the picket line, and the ones that -- that -- company union. And, uh, everybody down there -- but the popsicles called it the popsicle union. That's what union people called it, popsicle union. Here 00:09:00come another car.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, I think...

HELFAND: OK. And...

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WARE: What you don't know about that convention. Uh, the South left out every -- and to start with, uh, Gorman, he was against the strike to start with. And he was forced to call that convention. And textiles didn't win one thing by going to that convention. That's including the garment workers out in New Jersey and out in New York and out of Pennsylvania and out of Massachusetts. But most garment workers come out of New Jersey and New York City.

HELFAND: And why did these Alabama delegates go to that convention, and what was their mission?

WARE: Well, uh-- our mission, we thought, was go up 'ere and get something. But we didn't. I-- it wasn't -- it wasn't the Gorman's idea to have a 00:10:00convention to start with. He was executive vice president of the United Textile Workers of America.

HELFAND: Could you start the --

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WARE: -- afternoon.

HELFAND: That's true.

WARE: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. One more time [on base?], convention.

HELFAND: OK. I want to understand what the Alabama delegates went there for and how they presented themselves and what they told about the strike that was going on here already.

WARE: Well, uh...

GEORGE STONEY: Start with how you got there.

WARE: Uh, Albert Cox was a United Textile Workers organizer. And, uh, I was with him. We drove here to New York City. And, uh, I forget what John Dean talked about, but we didn't accomplish anything. Uh, textile didn't gain 00:11:00one thing for spending all that money of going to that convention, which, uh, Gorman didn't want to call to start with. See, he was executive vice president of the international union. And, uh, uh, the textile never did accomplish anything out of that convention, except expense. Expense of going up there.

HELFAND: OK.

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

JAMIE STONEY: All right. Let's do two things. Um, number one...

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WARE: Well, let's see, I come out of -- my name's Clyde Ware. I live 2417 Lookout --

JAMIE STONEY: Let's -- let's --

WARE: -- Street.

JAMIE STONEY: -- let's hold up a sec.

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JAMIE STONEY: Rolling.

HELFAND: So when did you start working in the mill, Clyde?

WARE: I come out of high school in 19 and 26, in May 1926. I went to work in the cotch-- cotton mill in September 1926. I went to work, 55 hours for $7.40. 00:12:00And, uh, I was sweeping and just laying it, filling flunky. And, uh, went to learning to weave, and I got to weaving, and I make about 13, 14 dollars a week. Then I got to learning to fix looms, and made $16.26 -- 20 cents -- for 55 hours. And then, uh, I worked for that, till Roosevelt got elected. And it started the NRA. And, uh, everybody went on minimum wage. And, uh, we went 00:13:00from 55 hours to 40 hours, and from $16.20 to $20. We lost 15 hours in work and gained $3.80 a week in wages.

JAMIE STONEY: OK.

GEORGE STONEY: [You?]...

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JAMIE STONEY: (inaudible)

WARE: (pause) I'm gonna get me a job helping Judy.

JAMIE STONEY: Shhh. (pause)

WARE: Uh, I'm'a write and tell them (inaudible) doing a good job. (throat clearing)

M1: Ca-- can -- can I get you to be quiet --

HELFAND: Yeah.

JAMIE STONEY: -- for about 30 seconds?

WARE: (inaudible)

HELFAND: We -- we can't talk for 30 seconds.

JAMIE STONEY: No talking right now, OK? Everybody be quiet, please.

WARE: OK.

HELFAND: We'll -- we'll stare at each other. We'll have a contest. (pause)

JAMIE STONEY: OK...

GEORGE STONEY: [admittedly?] doing. (laughter) I mean -- I mean...

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DOYLE JOHNS: My ancestors ran [it?].

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GEORGE STONEY: (inaudible)

JAMIE STONEY: You [have speak?].

GEORGE STONEY: All right, sir, why do you keep all this stuff?

JOHNS: Well, you might say we just packrats. (laughter) My wife and I, either one (inaudible) give anything away, and this came down through our family. In other words, my wife has always been interested in genealogy, and I have always been interested in genealogy. When I was in school, well, history and 00:15:00geography, you might say, was my favorite subjects.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, do you think that, uh, the history of the working people is important to local history?

JOHNS: Oh, I sure do. Uh, the working people are very important to local history. If -- if we don't leave this history to our younger people, well, uh, who's going to leave it to 'em?

GEORGE STONEY: The surprising thing to me -- and I grew up, remember, in the Reynolds Tobacco Company time -- is that you go through local history and you almost never see anything about the working people. (pause)

JOHNS: What is it you want to know about the working people? (laughs)

GEORGE STONEY: Is that -- is that true here?

JOHNS: Uh, more or less, uh, it's true.

GEORGE STONEY: Is there -- what do you think we could do to -- to change that?

JOHNS: Just, um, have more activities for the working people. Just let it be known. More -- more, uh, PR for the working people, that we would understand this -- how the working people, uh, really, uh -- what's going on, everything. I know when I was working, well, I had no problem, because my thing was, uh, coaching baseball. So I'd leave work and go coach baseball in the youth program, and -- and -- and I had a full, uh -- full life, so to speak. (laughs) If I had it to go over, I'd -- I'd coach baseball youth and -- and I'd work at the steel plant, as well as -- I early worked at Dwight Manufacturing Company in my early years.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, you've done a lot of, uh, looking at local history. Could you tell us how and why Dwight Manufacturing Company came to this town? Where did it come from and how did it get here?

JOHNS: Well, to the best of my, uh, studying and -- and -- and understanding what I learned just growing up, well, uh, it originated in -- in Massachusetts.

GEORGE STONEY: Sorry. I want you to start over. And say "Dwight 00:17:00Manufacturing Company originated..." Let's start again, OK?

JOHNS: Dwight Manufacturing Company originated here in, uh, Alabama City, through their, uh, home office in Massachusetts. And I understand that the supervising of the beginning of it had to come from Massachusetts. But then they put on a public relation, uh, program, and went out to -- up on Sand Mountain and Lookout Mountain and -- and everywhere -- to get the workers for the local, uh -- Dwight Manufacturing Company. And some of 'em did come from other southern mills that had a little experience, such as, uh, Cordova and Carbon Hill and the Avondale Mills out on Jefferson County. And they had a pretty good, uh, working crew, in my opinion.

GEORGE STONEY: Could you tell us, uh, how the land got selected and so forth?

JOHNS: Well, in my -- my study, to me, uh, they were several well-known, uh, pioneer families of Gadsden. And one of 'em was J.M. Elliott, Jr. And he had 00:18:00a great deal to do with, uh, organizing the Alabama City in 18 and 80. And in the 1881, well, the general senate of Alabama, uh, gave Alabama City a charter. And the reason, uh, J.M. Elliott did this, well, he owned the Elliott Car Works not three miles away. And he -- he was a -- had a big, uh -- he was a big landowner, and a pretty wealthy man at the time, along with other pioneer families of Gadsden, such as A.L. Woodliff and, uh, Turrentine and R.B. Kyle and, uh, Forney Hughes and, um -- and the Ewings.

GEORGE STONEY: How did the land get put together?

JOHNS: Well, the land -- in my opinion, see, (laughs) in 18 and 80, was -- was [they'd?] only 50 people living in Alabama City at that time, and it was just farmland. And it was, uh, generally located in -- in a good, uh, place for uh, 00:19:00uh, a mill to be built. Because, uh, it had, uh, good drainage. It had, uh, Wills Creek on the west and it had Black Creek on the east. And they surveyed the -- the gutters and the streets until they -- with -- and [not?] -- as well as putting down chert -- and they were not ever, uh, mud and everything. And it just drained off good, drained off into the -- to the creeks -- and went right on into Black Creek, and it was just, uh -- it was sanitary place for people. As well as having, uh, Lookout Mountain on the north, knocking out the north wind. And it just made a good climate for people to work, and made it very sanitary.

GEORGE STONEY: Do you know how the land got to be what's -- how was Dright -- Dwight -- attracted to this place?

JOHNS: Well, it was attractive -- in -- in the beginning, this whole district, there was a lot of coal and ore. And -- and they was -- at one time, it was known as the coal and ore, uh, deposits of, uh -- of the South. But, uh, I have 00:20:00been in the old coal mines myself. But they dug so much of the coal out and got such bad grade that it wasn't feasible to mine it anymore. And the same with iron ore, they -- they -- they had iron ore, uh, mined right over here on Tuscaloosa Avenue, that -- that, uh -- in fact, they sold the Japs a lot of the ore out of those mines before World War II. (laughs) And -- and they just had the -- had a good water supply. I mean -- and, uh, the water supply was good and pure. They -- back then, they was springs all over the place. They was [Cleavage Springs?], on Black Creek, that had -- had terrific water. And, uh -- and the water that Dwight -- in my understanding, when they first build the houses, well, they drilled wells between each two houses, and they put pumps in these wells. And it was that way for a few years. And then later, of course, they put pumps and -- and pumped water into the houses. But they had to keep their water buckets on their back porch, and they had warm water heaters to heat 00:21:00their hot water, and they had to bathe in number two tubs. And, uh, they -- they had, uh -- the houses was all built by Dwight. And they had, uh, three-, four-, and five-, and six-room houses for $1 a room. If you had a three-room house you paid $3 a month rent. If you had a six-room house, you paid $6 a month rent. And they were nice houses. They were -- they -- Dwight painted 'em every year. And they all was individual houses, as if they was separate houses. And underneath 'em -- they didn't underpin 'em, but they did put latticework where they would look nice. And they were on, uh, lots large enough that they -- they could have flowers and a vegetable garden, as well as each house -- they had a alley, and then that's -- in the back alley they had a -- a outhouse. And that's where they kept their coal and wood as well as their outhouse. A two-holer, so to speak. And every -- every day -- well, they had 00:22:00what we call the honey wagon. They would come down this back alley and take care of the outhouses and carry it to a pump house, uh, in -- in the Dwight, uh, sanitary field, and pump it off, and -- and it would go off. So they had no problem there. Later they did install, uh, sewage and -- and put bathrooms in each of the houses.

GEORGE STONEY: What about cows?

JOHNS: They had -- they kept their cows -- the mill -- Dwight Manufacturing Company did have a -- a nice pasture, uh, where everybody that worked in the mill, or even if they just lived nearby, could keep their cow in that pasture and go get it every night and bring it home and feed it and milk it and then carry it back every day the next day. And this, uh, pasture that I'm speaking of is right where the (inaudible) practice football field's located right now, right off of the old Southern Railroad.

GEORGE STONEY: You mentioned the -- something about a dollar.

JOHNS: If the cow got strayed and was caught out in the streets of Alabama City and everything, well, if the Alabama City sanitary department had to pick it up, they would take it and put it in a pen right behind the city jail, on Sansom Avenue, and they would keep that cow there until it was claimed. And if it was your cow, and when you claim it, you had to pay $1 a day for the time that they -- they had kept the cow.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, back to the -- there was -- there were two reasons why, uh, the Nichols brought the mill here prominently. One was they got the land for nothing, and the other was a very cheap, (coughing) uh, tax rate. Could you tell us about that?

JOHNS: Yeah, I think that is a big thing to do with it. Because my understanding...

GEORGE STONEY: Just start it, say, "Well, there are two things."

JOHNS: They's two things that -- the -- the tax rate at that time was just three quarters of one percent for taxes on interest...

GEORGE STONEY: Let's start again, and say, "There were two things that attracted, uh, [Dright?] to come here," OK?

JOHNS: There were two things that attracted Dwight to come here. And first was that the tax structure was real reasonable. It was three fourths of one percent 00:24:00for all industries, and that drew a lot of industries to Alabama City.

GEORGE STONEY: And the land?

JOHNS: And the land was just, uh -- was just the right kind of land for it. It was former, uh, farmland and everything. It was just located to where they could, uh, survey it. And incidentally, [Lom Jackson?] surveyed as many of the streets of Gadsden in the '20s and '30s as any one construction company I know of, and he did a terrific job.

GEORGE STONEY: And, uh, would you like to mention that this land was donated, or do you feel uncertain about that?

JOHNS: Oh, I'm -- I'm sure the land was donated, but, uh, I think, uh, all of those pioneer families were very anxious to get the mill to Alabama City, even though it was what was called the greater Gadsden area at that time. Because it was just soon after that, until the -- the Southern Steel Company located in Alabama City --

GEORGE STONEY: Let's --

JOHNS: -- (inaudible; overlapping dialogue)

GEORGE STONEY: -- sorry, let's go back. If you're comfortable saying that land was donated, could you say that (coughing) the 168 acres were donated by 00:25:00these prominent families to -- to the mills?

JOHNS: I feel like the prominent families of Gadsden donated this land, R.B. Kyle, J.M. Elliott, and -- and the Turrentines and the -- and the Woodliffs and -- and, uh, Hughes families of Gadsden.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. Why do you think they donated it?

JOHNS: Well, I think they felt that the possibility of this -- this location -- was great for the whole area, for the whole -- it -- it was called the Gadsden area. And, uh -- and it just meant more to their businesses too. 'Cause they all had businesses. They all were in the -- in the lumber business, or the stove (inaudible) business, or the pipe shop business. Or the steel plant business. And of course later the Goodyear Tire and Rubber Company, which at one time was the largest rubber company in -- in -- in the Uni-- in the world. And it's -- it's still the leading industry for Gadsden. And the steel plant is still the leading in-- industry for -- but of course, Dwight is gone 00:26:00now, because you just don't need as much, uh -- you might say polyester and silk mill thing is taking over from cotton. But they still some big cotton, uh, uh, plantations here in Alabama. You go up in Limestone County and everything, you'll find some large -- some huge clyton -- cotton plantations to-- today.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, I just read your autobiography, which I think is beautifully written. And you mention the mills and the church. Could you talk about that connection between the mills and the church?

JOHNS: Right where the Nichols Library's located now, which was the first library in -- in the state of Alabama -- public library -- they was two churches. They was the union church. And in that church -- so all denominations met there. And, uh, the later was Dwight -- they built a -- a -- a nice church on Somersworth and, uh, Waters 00:27:00Street. And, uh, the Methodists, they built on 28th Street, on Sansom Avenue. And before the Methodists built there, it was a tabernacle on that corner. And what I mean by the tabernacle, it was, uh, what was called the [chitago?] shows.

GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.

JOHNS: And they had medicine shows and -- and, uh -- and concerts and everything there. And...

GEORGE STONEY: But what I'm trying to get at is the mills that -- that the -- Dwight actually, uh, paid for building the churches and helped the churches out. Could you talk about that? As though I --

JOHNS: OK.

GEORGE STONEY: -- the audience doesn't know that.

JOHNS: Let me start from the beginning.

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

JOHNS: Uh, the first church that I went to at age three was, uh, up over the Masonic building on, uh, 4th Street. Ninety-six North 4th Street -- 4th Street. It was a nondenominational street. But when I reached five years of age, well, I started to Dwight Baptist Church on -- on the corner of, uh, Somersworth and Waters. And, um, Dwight built that church, and their pastor was, 00:28:00uh, Robert Locke. And, uh, they paid for the -- the church completely. Everything -- they paid the preacher and -- and -- and paid everything that -- that -- Dwight was good to the -- to their church, to the Dwight Baptist Church. Now, the Methodists, they were on their own, and the Church of God, one block down Sansom Avenue, they were a church. And then right on Sansom Avenue, uh, was the Church of Christ. And then right on down below that was a Nazareth church. And they were all on their own.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, in some places, where -- and we're mentioning East Newnan, Georgia, for example -- the superintendent of the mill was also the superintendent of the Sunday school. And he was very much interested in getting people to go to church. Was there anything like that at -- here, at Dwight?

JOHNS: Here, at Dwight, one of the most, uh -- ladies that had the biggest influence on me was head nurse at Dwight Manufacturing Company. Her name was [Mary Hampton?]. And she had as much influence on the youth of Alabama City in 00:29:00the '20s and '30s as anybody I know of. And -- and the -- the doctors of, uh -- that Dwight had, uh, was Dr. [Cantrell?] and Dr., uh, Acton Mitchell [sic], and, uh, Dr. [Esfel?]. And they were all, uh, church-going doctors. They all was very active in their church -- (inaudible)