Leander Zimmerman Interview 1

 GEORGE STONEY: I know how you feel. There's a -- I'm a teacher, and I know how you feel when you --

LEANDER ZIMMERMAN: You, you -- you're a teacher.

GEORGE STONEY: -- when --

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ZIMMERMAN: (inaudible)

GEORGE STONEY: Well, when -- Judy? OK. We wanted to ask you about some other people we, we read the papers about the, your father and, and uh, your sister getting carted off to Fort McPherson, and there were names of some other people from Hogansville who also got picked up. Do you know any, or remember any of them?

ZIMMERMAN: Oh, I can't recall the name, but I, I knew -- well, and (inaudible), like I was there, you just about know everybody's houses. And everybody's in the house. But there's a thing -- I was going to tell you, 00:01:00recall the names, since I, since I got older, I'm worse about it than I ever was. At recalling names.

GEORGE STONEY: Do you -- do you remember the Horton sisters?

ZIMMERMAN: Yeah. Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: They -- we found their names in the Atlanta Journal and we've seen them on our newsreels.

ZIMMERMAN: Yeah, yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: Could you talk about the Horton sisters?

ZIMMERMAN: Well, they're -- they was, they were good, good sisters. And I think they do the things, what they ought to do in life.

GEORGE STONEY: Did you realize that they were also, got taken to Fort McPherson?

ZIMMERMAN: Yeah. I do -- one of the state -- when I was there with (inaudible). Yeah, they (inaudible) going with us. And I think, [Luella?] I think she was with Etta Mae. Older sister. She was (inaudible) too, Luella. And it's 00:02:00large, large -- anyway, anyway, I knew everybody. Could right now, call their names down, but I can't do it anymore.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, who other -- who were the others?

JUDITH HELFLAND: There was a man named Travis Sweatman?

ZIMMERMAN: Huh?

HELFLAND: Travis Sweatman?

GEORGE STONEY: Travis Sweatman.

ZIMMERMAN: Yeah, yeah. Travis, yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: Do you remember him?

ZIMMERMAN: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: Tell us about him.

ZIMMERMAN: Well, I don't remember the job he had in the mill, but he -- he was a good, was a good citizen. Had to treat the people right who...

HELFLAND: Well, I actually have a couple of pictures from Fort Mac, if that would be helpful.

GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm, OK.

(pause)

HELFLAND: OK. That... That's a photograph at Fort McPherson. That's the men.

ZIMMERMAN: Oh, that's a good [problem?]. I was standing up there. Well, I can't call the names. Some of them, I know. Well, all of them, I guess. But as far as call the names, I... I can't, I can't call the names.

(pause)

HELFLAND: I think those are the Horton sisters.

ZIMMERMAN: I don't... I don't recognize -- I, I recognize, but I can't call the names.

(pause)

GEORGE STONEY: The fellow sitting on the trucks.

ZIMMERMAN: Huh?

GEORGE STONEY: The fellows on the trucks being carted off.

(pause)

ZIMMERMAN: I can't -- still can't call the names. But I recognize them. Some of them. But I, well, in fact I just about knew everybody there. But, yeah, (inaudible) hit me, and I don't call names anymore.

HELFLAND: Did you talk about how they were treated once they came back home?

GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, yeah. We did.

HELFLAND: Well, I have a couple of names of families that were evicted from their homes in East Newnan. And I think some of them might have come to 00:05:00Hogansville. But they could be families you knew.

ZIMMERMAN: They come to Hogansville? I seen somewhere, today, that they come to Hogansville from East Newnan. I recognize their faces. And, and it was... It's a little girl, who lived neighbor to me. And I seen her today. And I remember when she was about that high. And she'd always -- like Etta Mae -- she was always a talker. Did a lot of talking. And I seen her there every day. And she, she's getting on up in here, now.

HELFLAND: I'll just throw out a couple of names for you, OK? And these were 00:06:00families that were involved in the union, and who were forced to leave their homes from East Newnan, OK? The Bishop family.

ZIMMERMAN: Huh?

HELFLAND: Do you remember the Bishop family? Maddie and Margaret Bishop?

ZIMMERMAN: Yeah. They were, they were there, the Bishops.

HELFLAND: This was a...

GEORGE STONEY: Maddie and, and Martha?

HELFLAND: Margaret and [Luella?].

GEORGE STONEY: Maddie, Margaret, and Luella Bishop.

ZIMMERMAN: Yeah, yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: They had to leave East Newnan.

ZIMMERMAN: They had to le-- they, you mean, they had to leave East Newnan on account of that? And they went to Hogansville. They come to Hogansville for that. I don't -- I think they come to Hogansville from, from there. Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, did --

ZIMMERMAN: I have some of the people that locked it out there, and they -- 00:07:00didn't let them go back in the mill. But, most of them did go back in the mill. Some of them, they didn't let them go back.

GEORGE STONEY: Do you know why they picked some people and not others?

ZIMMERMAN: Well, because it took too much... Well, there, they was too strong against the, against the company. That's, that's the main reason. If they, if they was too strong against the mill company, they, they didn't let them come back. And let them go. But, of course, they couldn't let them all go, but they let as much off they could. In all, in all the mills, they had the same -- went right on up through the [north line?]. That same thing. When I was at Concord. That mill just shut down up there, on account of it. I, I 00:08:00lived in Concord. Moved there from here. And the mills were shut down (inaudible) on account of that. And my wife's father had his sister -- our sisters -- was at, (inaudible) the mill on that, at Concord.

GEORGE STONEY: So, it spread all over?

ZIMMERMAN: It spread all the way up. I don't know how far. And all the mills, mill companies. They just shut down all the mills. And I think it was a pretty rough thing to do. But they kept the union out. That was the main thing. They wanted to keep the union out. A union is a good thing, in the right time and the right place. I lived in Wylam, Alabama. And people -- I, I 00:09:00run a barbershop in Wylam, Alabama. And there's people working in a coal mine, wasn't making as much as someone working in the steel plant. Where, when they -- when they made that strike, they, they, they got -- they started throwing them money. Getting money. And I think the old -- they done a good thing, and they done a good thing starting it. But I think they overdone it afterwards, afterwards. There's all these mills, been overdone after they get them going. But that union is a good thing if it's used right. If the right people gets their head on, they do -- it's a (inaudible).

GEORGE STONEY: Now you've got, you've got relatives who are in management now, I believe.

ZIMMERMAN: Oh, yeah. Yeah, the mill, yeah. I have, sisters. Some is, and really, is a manager. In a mill.

GEORGE STONEY: How do you feel about that?

ZIMMERMAN: Well, I think it's a good thing. I really appreciate that she got up to that place.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, we've heard a lot of people talk about -- and I'm going to use an ugly term -- they talk about lint heads.

ZIMMERMAN: Lint heads, yeah. Some call people lint heads. That's a dirty name, yeah. Of course, I, I, when I worked in a mill, I didn't realize I was a lint head. (laughs) I felt like it was a horrible thing, working there. And I got to where I was making good, in a mill. The last job I got in the mill -- not the, not the last job I got in a mill, but one time on the job, I was -- I 00:11:00was reeling. Learned to reel, on reels. And I made more money at that than I do at anything in the mill. I, I've run twisters and doffed spinning and creeled twisters and run winders. I've done, I've done just about every job in the mill.

GEORGE STONEY: How many years did you spend in the mill?

ZIMMERMAN: Well... I spent altogether, maybe about eight or ten years in the mill. And of course, of course, I quit that with the (inaudible) later.

GEORGE STONEY: Did it affect your health in any way?

ZIMMERMAN: No. I never did feel it did. No, I, I never felt any -- a job I don't like in the mill, I did do it a while, is run cards. I didn't like 00:12:00that card room. There's too much dust in the card room. And some people can't take it in that dust in the card room. I had a friend up at Concord, who was a card grinder. But they had to let him go because he couldn't take that dust anymore. They set him down to the machine shop.

GEORGE STONEY: Well, when you were a barber, I believe you were also a doctor, weren't you?

ZIMMERMAN: (laughs) (inaudible) I, I learned a thing from my mother. And I, I used it for a while. When I got to the place, I couldn't make it. And I say, it cured cancers. I've cured a lot of cancers myself. So, I've got three right now. I'd be glad if I could use that thing, but I can't use it. I can't -- there's stuff, I make it, make it out of what they called sheep 00:13:00sorrel. You go out in the corn field, you gather the sheep sorrel, and take it and beat it up as far as you can get it. And it's (inaudible) all its use, you can get out of it. And put it in a glass. Take a -- break a -- take a (inaudible), corner off the top of that glass. And then put a cover over it, and set it on a flat rock. And, and in about three hour -- about three months, that'll make a brown salve. And that brown salve, you put that on, on, on cancer. And cancer is cured. And I've cured a many skin cancers myself, with that brown salve that I made. But the last two or three times I've attempted it, it didn't work. I don't know why.

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GEORGE STONEY: Thank you. OK?

HELFLAND: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

ZIMMERMAN: Well, I, I, I would be glad if I could go back to that. But the last three trips -- trips I made, hadn't worked. And I've taken lots myself, and lots on other people.

GEORGE STONEY: Hm, that's interesting.

HELFLAND: I have a question.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

HELFLAND: Mr. Zimmerman. I -- you could ask him. (inaudible) I just wonder if there are any folks who, after the strike, left the village and never came back and he's never seen them again.

GEORGE STONEY: When, after the strike, the people who got laid off, did any of them leave the village and you never saw them again?

ZIMMERMAN: Yes. That's all of them, in fact. Some of them left, and (inaudible). (laughs) I never seen them all. But, I, I, if, if I -- I was there, and if I could do them a favor, I'd be glad to do it anyway. Whether 00:15:00they pay me or not

GEORGE STONEY: Where did you think they went?

ZIMMERMAN: Well, they went to different mills. Two or three of them, I knew, come to Atlanta from down there. And so went, went back down in Alabama, and different places.

GEORGE STONEY: Did any of them go out of the South?

ZIMMERMAN: What?

GEORGE STONEY: Did any of them go out of the South? Go north?

ZIMMERMAN: I don't -- don't know. I don't know [where all they went?]. I don't know where all they went.

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

HELFLAND: I really want to ask that one more time, so he could answer it in a complete sentence.

GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm. Uh, just again... Could you tell me about what happened to the people who had to leave town?

ZIMMERMAN: Well, there -- they had, I imagine it was, that did had to leave, had to do -- has a pretty bad, pretty bad job, to go and replace it again, somewhere else. Because it's -- a man out of a job, and they have to get it -- where they go, anywhere possible to do it, to make it. And sometimes, it made pretty rough, where they have to do it.

GEORGE STONEY: Did they have trouble finding another job?

ZIMMERMAN: Well, I, I, don't -- uh, I don't know of any that really had a tough time finding another job. They, they could go and get another job at another mill. And had to come on out, come out on it. But it's awful rough on them, when it has to go out like that. Not have much to do it.

GEORGE STONEY: We've heard the term, that "I got blacklisted."

ZIMMERMAN: Well, they probably did.

GEORGE STONEY: Talk about that.

ZIMMERMAN: Well, I, I... I probably heard maybe three or four say that they did get blacklisted. Not, not many. Of course, that blacklist is another, another thing. I don't think -- if they felt like they was blacklisted, they couldn't get a job where they want -- at other mills.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. Mm-hmm.

HELFLAND: I'm just wondering how he felt about his father and his sisters --

GEORGE STONEY: I've talked to him -- we've talked, yeah. Mm-hmm. OK. Anything else?

HELFLAND: I have more names, but --

GEORGE STONEY: No, no. OK. OK. Thank you.

ZIMMERMAN: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, we can put on that, yeah. I'm sorry.

HELFLAND: Do you want room tone or anything?

GEORGE STONEY: You have, you have room tone?

JAMIE STONEY: Uh, (inaudible.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, OK.

CREW: (inaudible) Off, please.

ZIMMERMAN: I think that most of them people that really [beat?] down there today, as East Newnan and, and Hogansville people. A very few of us, other places in the mill. And I visited most places. I worked at East Newnan in 1914. Went to work at the mill. I've had a job (inaudible). I've done just about everything in the mill but, but I was turned to barber later, to go down (inaudible).

GEORGE STONEY: What were conditions like in the mill?

ZIMMERMAN: Well, of course, people could make an honest living. That's about it. Not, not -- not many people -- well, I've known people that worked in the mill and saved enough money to start something else. It's, it's turned out pretty good, with it. Turned out pretty good. Another business. It's partly, if he'd been working in the mill, he knows he's got everything he can get. After -- unless you can get to be an overseer. In the mill. You just do make a living, that's it. That's all there is to it. And that's the main, main reason I left the mill. I wanted to make more than just a living. 00:20:00Of course I, I raised four children, and I love all four children. And I think they all love me. And my son, he doesn't want to -- he wanted to be a machinist. He wasn't, he wasn't even in high school, I don't think, when he first told me. "When I get out of school, and I get to do anything, I want to be a machinist." And so, [state of affairs?] and when he finished high school, I sent him to a machinist school. That was right at the beginning of World War II. And I sent him, uh, to this machinist school, and when he graduated that machinist school, they sent him to Maryland. Give him a job, and put him on a job in Maryland. Well, I didn't much like that. Of course, 00:21:00it's a good job. And he stayed in Maryland until after the, the, he was getting the post, and hell, all the boys are being drafted into service. Well, he said, "It's not right for me --" now, they told him. Says, "Now, this job here, you're on, that's doing -- making stuff for the war." Stuff that they was making up there in Maryland, they was making it for Russia. For (inaudible). They said, "You stay right on here just as long as this war lasts, if you want to." He said, "I don't want to do it." He said, "I don't like the idea of me having a job like this, working, and making good money. And my friends all off serving in this war." He says, "I don't like it." He says, "I'm going -- I'm going back and I want to volunteer for a pilot." He wanted to be a pilot. Well, he come back and 00:22:00volunteer, volunteered for a pilot. He served all his colors. He couldn't make a great (inaudible). Well, he said, "Well, I want to -- I want to get right on in there." And he went right on back up there. Every week he go back and says, "I want to get on in there and get started." They says, "Well, you've got to be drafted." He said, "Well, I, I can't keep waiting here. I've got to get to do something." And he stayed there for two and a half weeks. Two and a half --

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CREW: This is room tone for interview with Mr. Zimmerman.