Etta Mae Zimmerman and Leona Parham Interview 1

GEORGE STONEY: If you'll repeat that again. We didn't get that. Talking about [Sullet?], who went to North Carolina.

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: He left North Carolina because they organized. Years later, he came down there to talk to me about the union. They was going to vote whether they wanted one or didn't want one. I said, "Now, Mr. [Laurent?]. I know you left North Carolina on account of being organized." Or, they were organized. And I know that his daddy worked at the mills, and his daddy was dead at the time. But I said, "We do need a union." And if we hadn't -- if they hadn't had one in west, and south Carolina, and these other mills, we 00:01:00wouldn't have got the raises that we got since then. Since they organized.

STONEY: OK. Now, we're going to keep running this tape. See if you recognize anybody else.

ZIMMERMAN: That's somebody, with a stick.

LEONA PARHAM: Well, that's the -- that's (inaudible).

ZIMMERMAN: I told you that looked like Olivia.

STONEY: See if you recognize your sister in this group that's coming up here, now.

PARHAM: She'd probably be right out right.

ZIMMERMAN: No, I was on the back. They brought us there, right, then. They brought us back to --

STONEY: Point it out.

PARHAM: No, it's on the other side of this one.

JUDTIH HELFLAND: Do we need to go back?

PARHAM: Mm-hmm.

(pause)

PARHAM: All right. The dark [kid?], right there. On the end. On the right. That's Etta Mae.

HELFLAND: The second one?

PARHAM: Mm-hmm. See here, first, second, third. Now, this way.

ZIMMERMAN: You see [Malt?] or [Minnie?]? Malt, Minnie, the one --

STONEY: OK, that one, right there.

PARHAM: That's Etta Mae.

STONEY: Right there.

ZIMMERMAN: Do you see Malt or Minnie?

STONEY: I wonder if you could -- (inaudible), would you mind going through and pointing with your finger, your sister?

PARHAM: That's her, right here.

HELFLAND: Do it, do it again, and point it out. Show, show Etta Mae where she is.

PARHAM: I think she won't see it. It's right here, Etta Mae. You're first on the left.

ZIMMERMAN: Who's on the other side?

ZIMMERMAN: Minnie and Malt.

PARHAM (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) I'm not sure, who just. Who the other three are, really. That could be a Horton, but I'm not positive.

ZIMMERMAN: Asked to move about three or four trucks.

STONEY: Do you remember the -- let's go back. Remember the big woman -- the older woman who was with you, here?

ZIMMERMAN: No, was that name listed?

HELFLAND: Maude Granger.

PARHAM: Maude? That could -- not the second one --

ZIMMERMAN: Minnie. Her sister was larger than Maude. But now, there's a woman from --

PARHAM: Are you talking about the one second from left, there?

STONEY: Yes.

ZIMMERMAN: From my left.

STONEY: Yes.

ZIMMERMAN: These are just --

PARHAM: Now, that is Etta Mae, again, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah.

HELFLAND: How's she look, to you?

ZIMMERMAN: About as ugly as I am, now.

PARHAM: She hasn't changed that much.

ZIMMERMAN: I told you, I never did make a good picture. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)(break in video) My brother -- I had a brother that worked down here but he --

STONEY: You said a Horton. I'm not sure which one -- which Horton it is.

ZIMMERMAN: Believe it's Tod.

(overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

STONEY: Could you tell us about your sister again? Tell us how she looks to you, please?

PARHAM: She looks good, on there, to me.

ZIMMERMAN: Captain Bill wanted to shut me up. I said, "Well, I read the newspaper every morning, and they are not telling the whole story." Said, "What do you mean by that?" I said, "Well --"

PARHAM: You know, I don't believe she's on this first line. That's her head, between these two women, right here. Can you see? It looks like she was with them, a while ago. In line. But she looks like she's just a step behind them. You see what I mean?

ZIMMERMAN: Well...

PARHAM: Now, she looks in line with them.

ZIMMERMAN: See, they -- they, put barb wire around the building.

STONEY: We're going to another scene.

ZIMMERMAN: But now, the, the woman they sent out there to be with us was a fat woman.

PARHAM: That's probably her. I don't remember any fat women getting into that truck.

ZIMMERMAN: But she was supposed to be with us, but her name's supposed to be in that(inaudible).

STONEY: One of the things that surprised me is that all the women we see look so slim. Young women.

PARHAM: Mm-hmm. Well, most of them.

STONEY: See if you recognize any of these men, now.

ZIMMERMAN: Charlie (inaudible). They slept on the ground, the first night. On blankets. And I forgot how many men had to be in one tent. But that's what [my cousin said?].

PARHAM: That's a guard. Yeah, I know that's a guard. But I don't -- I didn't see anybody who looked like Papa on these.

ZIMMERMAN: They said you could see Papa getting on that truck.

PARHAM: Well...

ZIMMERMAN: But the [others?] hasn't got on it. Has National Guard on this side. And they called, they called Papa Grandpa. "You don't have to get on there." But he did.

STONEY: Now, show -- they're showing the soldiers waiting on you. Did that happen?

ZIMMERMAN: We had our tin -- little cantines, is that what you call them? They cooked in garbage cans. (inaudible)

PARHAM: They asked if they waited on you, though.

ZIMMERMAN: I wish. (inaudible)

PARHAM: They're serving them their.

STONEY: Do you know any of those people?

ZIMMERMAN: Well, that might be the first night that we was in there. They cooked in garbage cans. And they was soup and beans.

STONEY: Do you recognize any of the people in the picture, there? Girls?

PARHAM: Not really. That right there... (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

ZIMMERMAN: There's the little Galloway girl with us, from Hogansville. I tried to look after her. She was just old enough to go to work. She's 00:09:00[Delma?] Galloway's daughter. But she had... I don't see her (inaudible).

STONEY: Oh, the rest of this is with the men, so we're going to go -- go back to the girls.

PARHAM: Our daddies would -- our daddy would have been wearing a hat. Some of those men have on hats, but I haven't seen him.

ZIMMERMAN: Well, that's going back -- looking like, we went on -- maybe we was coming home. We come home on the --

PARHAM: (inaudible) Must have been right after you got there. My daddy was (inaudible). Hamburgers, hot dogs, that kind of thing.

STONEY: Tell about what it was like when you got back home.

ZIMMERMAN: It was heaven.

PARHAM: They got a good welcome. We.

STONEY: Could you talk about what kind of a welcome you got, when you got back?

ZIMMERMAN: Well, we was glad to get back. And everybody was glad to see us.

PARHAM: Everybody went crazy.

ZIMMERMAN: But now --

PARHAM: They just sat at home. They didn't know what -- what was going on. We didn't have any communications. We didn't have telephones. No televisions, and things, back then. So we just sat home and worried about them.

ZIMMERMAN: I wonder who made this picture.

STONEY: A newsreel company.

HELFLAND: Do you remember a person with a movie camera there, taking pictures while you were there?

ZIMMERMAN: Mm-hmm. Probably wouldn't have noticed him.

STONEY: Did they show this --

ZIMMERMAN: Got about all of it.

STONEY: Did they show this in the movie house, here?

ZIMMERMAN: Mm-mm. No. But we had friction in the church, in town. And the mill.

STONEY: Could you talk about that friction?

ZIMMERMAN: Well, was it --

PARHAM: There were just disagreements.

ZIMMERMAN: The man next door watched our house like, the man next door watched us.

PARHAM: To see what went on up there.

ZIMMERMAN: And we called them Grandpa and Grandma. Johnson. And... They was 00:12:00running night line. Now, wait a minute.

PARHAM: You see how close these houses are? Well, you can almost hear what goes on in the next house. And the people below sat up -- well, we've always sat up. But this girl, she was probably up all night last night about it. And they reported everybody that came in and out of that house. During this time, they would report to the officials, because the officials were, were fighting the union. They didn't want this. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Hell, I can't think of (inaudible).

ZIMMERMAN: Verna. Verna wasn't with [union?], was she?

PARHAM: I think she was. That looks like her.

ZIMMERMAN: And this one down here...

STONEY: Could you tell me a little bit more about the neighbors listening in on you and recording?

ZIMMERMAN: Well, Grandpa Johnson, sitting there with his arms folded, looking out the window. And well, who was Nadine, before (inaudible)?

PARHAM: [Sure it was an?] Andrews.

ZIMMERMAN: Mr. Andrews comes to (inaudible). Coming from work that night, and he said, "You know what? Zimmerman's out there, is having union meetings at the house." He said, "My God, I guess. It's their business. Not supposed to be yours."

PARHAM: But that was a different neighbor to the one that recorded so much. You're talking about the neighbor across the street --

ZIMMERMAN: (inaudible) is the one that reported everything.

PARHAM: But I think they just stayed up late to find out who --

ZIMMERMAN: There were two men, (inaudible) that got an office job. One of them was Harry Barton. Another of them was Ed Lester. Ed Lester was a secretary. And he got an office job.

STONEY: He was the secretary of the union?

ZIMMERMAN: Mm-hmm.

STONEY: Could you say that again?

ZIMMERMAN: Ed Lester was the secretary of the union, but he quit them. He got an office job. So did Harry Barton. Frank wouldn't appreciate, when he did that.

PARHAM: Well true…

STONEY: Well, after you got back, and after there was all this change, how were you treated in the town?

PARHAM: It wasn't differently, that I could see.

ZIMMERMAN: They started sending [Ruby McGreer?] out to rest, one day. She said, "You mean, I got to go back and rest? You going to let Etta Mae Zimmerman 00:16:00work?" Well, (inaudible) belonged to the union, too.

PARHAM: I really couldn't -- Oh, well, naturally there were some things. Didn't, didn't do you any good to try to organize, or you know, first one another would try to argue about, but I said, "I think, really, the union did help." Because we got better pay and better hours.

ZIMMERMAN: Yeah, because it's organized at the other mills.

PARHAM: It wasn't -- it was not because we were organized. We never got that far. We did have a lot of members. I mean, a good percentage of them were members.

ZIMMERMAN: Those men would come to any of the organize (inaudible).

PARHAM: But we found out later that the men who were the, at the head of it, who's trying to organize this one, didn't, didn't know that much about the 00:17:00union. Plus, he took the funds that was paid to him and skipped with it. So, it really was not on the up-and-up.

ZIMMERMAN: Homer Welch.

STONEY: Tell me about Homer Welch.

ZIMMERMAN: Well, when we were in Newnan, they claimed he had a pistol. But he did not. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

PARHAM: Homer Welch was a good Christian man that believed in, in what he was fighting for. So, that's the best, uh, recommendation I could give Homer.

ZIMMERMAN: Well, he, he was arrested for having a pistol. He had to go to court.

PARHAM: Oh, yeah. But it -- he didn't have (inaudible) on the pistol.

STONEY: Tell about, tell about your experience in court.

ZIMMERMAN: Well, all we had to say was he didn't have a pistol. Because he didn't. And we knew he didn't.

STONEY: Could you describe that day, when you went to court?

ZIMMERMAN: Nothing except being up there. But [a lot else?] on the stand. All of them. He come clear. Because he did not have a pistol.

STONEY: This was in -- where was this? Where did this happen?

PARHAM: The courthouse in --

ZIMMERMAN: No, it's in Newnan.

STONEY: But the, the trial was in LaGrange, wasn't it?

ZIMMERMAN: No, it was in Newnan. We went to court in Newnan. All, all we had to say was, he did not have a pistol. I don't know as he ever owned a pistol.

STONEY: Now, when did that happen?

ZIMMERMAN: About a year later, wasn't it.

PARHAM: No, it -- well, there was a -- the last of '34, and the beginning of '35. Between, I'm not sure. I mean, month.

STONEY: Well now, after all this happened, what effect did this have on attempts to get a union here?

PARHAM: We never got a union here.

ZIMMERMAN: But they did vote on it, years later.

HELFLAND: Did you take part in that vote?

ZIMMERMAN: I don't know how -- (inaudible) turned out.

STONEY: (inaudible)

ZIMMERMAN: Please don't take my picture on there.

STONEY: Could you -- could you say, tell us that -- what happened after the, 00:20:00after the, all of this happened? What effect did that have on the union?

ZIMMERMAN: Well, after the men left, I mean, all those men had left [the year?] before, before we quit meeting.

PARHAM: They just died, then. We never, we never really got a working union.

ZIMMERMAN: But they attempted to organize in Calloway Mills, and uh --

PARHAM: I think we need on the air conditioner.

ZIMMERMAN: They put those people out, the ones that joined it.

STONEY: We're going to take a rest in just a moment, so we'll get it cooled down. It'll make too much noise for us.

PARHAM: OK.

STONEY: So, they made an attempt to organize.

ZIMMERMAN: But they didn't. They didn't get organized.

STONEY: Tell me about Talmadge.

ZIMMERMAN: Well…

PARHAM: Well, he just -- this was Herman Talmadge's daddy.

ZIMMERMAN: Eugene Talmadge.

PARHAM: He was sent up there, at that, at that time. And he made a speech in Newnan, and our father was there. And he brought out the union, you know, and he said he would not send out troops. But --

ZIMMERMAN: Roosevelt was our president.

PARHAM: That's the first time, I guess -- well, in fact, I know it was the first time our father had ever voted for Eugene Talmadge. But he took him at his word, you see, and went ahead and voted for him. And he somehow -- he sent the troops!

ZIMMERMAN: But now, most of the --

PARHAM: As, as soon as he was announced, you know. Governor. He sent the troops out. Now, (laughs) our father was, he was a pretty frank person. He 00:22:00didn't like Gene Talmadge, and after that he sat down and wrote him a letter, and he even got the dictionary to, to find the vilest, most contemptible things that he could say to him, and send it to him.

ZIMMERMAN: I told Papa he wouldn't never read that letter. But he did. He responded to it. But he, he just said he was glad to hear from him. He wrote him a nice letter back! But he really told him off from A to Z.

STONEY: Do you have a copy of that letter?

PARHAM: I wish sometimes that we had saved things like that. But we didn't think about ever getting old, and all. And what these things would mean to us in the future, at that time. Young people don't look to the future, too much. 00:23:00And it, it's sad when you get to this age and you have so many memories, and no memorabilias that you know, anything that is written or recorded.

ZIMMERMAN: Leona has two sons. That went to textile, after the -- well, Roger didn't finish college. Charles did. And uh, when I heard they selected textile, I said, I'd be ashamed to tell it. But you see, now --

PARHAM: Everybody done well.

ZIMMERMAN: -- top of their class.

STONEY: What's happened to them?

ZIMMERMAN: Well, she has a son in Columbus that is president --

PARHAM: President of Columbus Mill. If you know anything about Columbus.

ZIMMERMAN: And instead of putting in money in the bank, putting it into the mill.

PARHAM: Well, he's -- he's bought in, you know. He's an [officer?] in the company. He's done well, I'm proud of him. But he -- he really had to work (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). And then the second son came along. He -- I would never have dreamed that he'd have go into textile. I didn't -- I didn't dream that of Charles, either. I was a little surprised. But he's done well.

ZIMMER: But if you didn't get a picture of that (inaudible) --He's a boss from Hogansville, who signed it. And it's all four wars. Everybody that was 00:25:00killed in Hogansville, in the four wars, their names on it.

STONEY: Have you ever talked to your son about what happened to your sister?

PARHAM: He knows all about -- he knows this girl, from A to Z. We do reminisce a lot, and he loves -- I don't know. Maybe there's a little different, there, but he loves almost as much as he loves me, I think. And he loves me a lot. (laughs) He would have to, to put up with me. Now, well, Roger went to Vietnam. You know, he was in Vietnam War. And when he came back, I don't know why he decided to go into textile, but that's what he did, and he's done well.

ZIMMERMAN: He never went to college. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

PARHAM: He was a good football player, but -- it was all for a scholarship at Auburn, but he was in love. And he used the excuse that his daddy needed him at the store, so he wouldn't leave his daddy, you know, to go to college. But I told [Boots?] all the time, I said, "He's not fooling me. He's in love, and he's not going that far away."

STONEY: Well, let's go back to the camp a moment. You -- did you do any singing when you were there?

ZIMMERMAN: Singing, talking. A little bit of praying.

STONEY: Could you tell me about what you did?

ZIMMERMAN: Well, they -- they had those guards around the clock. I told you that. And some of them were Sargent. Two of them from Hogansville. I liked to 00:27:00talk to the guards. But they weren't allowed to talk back to us too much.

STONEY: Well, tell me about the singing and praying.

ZIMMERMAN: (laughs) Well, I don't know as anybody heard me pray, but I was raised in a Christian home. I didn't have to pray out. But I prayed that I'd get home safely, because I didn't know what was going to happen up there. I didn't have no idea how long they was going to keep up. I thought maybe they'd keep us until they broke the union in Hogansville, anyway. But I wish I could remember the two -- the two men that come down here to organize.

STONEY: How old were you then?

ZIMMERMAN: Count back from '34 to now. I'm 84.

STONEY: Now, do you remember any of the songs you sang?

ZIMMERMAN: Well, "Don't Fence Me In" was one of them.(laughs) And, uh... Some, a few of them was religious songs, but most of them, just "Don't Fence Me In."

PARHAM (inaudible) And ballads.

ZIMMERMAN: "I Want To Go Home." "Can't [End?] Tonight on No Campground." That's the first war song. "There's a Rose That Grows on No-man's Land." The ones that knew them. Some of them didn't know them. But now, they were -- one older woman from Sargents, and two younger women. That I remember. I don't even remember how many there were of us. See, they 00:29:00just counted that as a whole -- because that many women and that many men. But they wasn't just from Hogan-- they's from LaGrange and Sargent.

STONEY: Was there a lot of joking around?

ZIMMERMAN: Well, when we got to ourselves but the -- I told you, the, the girls always talked to the guards. They wasn't supposed to talk back. Some of them did and of them didn't.

PARHAM: He said there wasn't much joking going on.

ZIMMERMAN: Yeah, about having to be guarded, goes to the [little Johnny?].

STONEY: We've got to change the tape in just a moment, and I'm -- then I'm 00:30:00going to ask your, maybe your sister could play some of those songs, and your sister could sing them.

PARHAM: My sister can't play anything anymore. How about Judy?

HELFLAND: (inaudible)

STONEY: But I bet you can play (overlapping dialogue; inaudible), "Night on the old campground."

PARHAM: I came in here the other night, and, and um, I don't know why I'd ever sit down to this --

ZIMMERMAN: I don't have the same voice I used to.

PARHAM: My hands are stiff. I used to enjoy playing, but my hands are stiff.