Joe Jacobs, Lucille Thornburgh and Union Organizer Interview 3

 JAMIE STONEY: OK, you take him, I'll take him.

JUDITH HELFAND: There's a train.

JAMIE STONEY: Rolling. Let's wait for the train.

M1: I can't tell, but (inaudible)

JAMIE STONEY: [Speak?].

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

JAMIE STONEY: Close enough.

GEORGE STONEY: (inaudible) OK? All right.

M2: I beg to differ, you mention about letting people know. You talked about, um, your shop steward came to you and said that, well, I can solve your problem. All too many times people use that as a reason to join a union or a reason for not joining a union that I can solve your problem. We hold too many high expectations toward joining a union. We can't solve all the problems. Joe touched on it earlier when he said that a large number of people when -- when they look at the union, and I'm going to reiterate what you said, apathy plays 00:01:00a large part in what we do, how we accomplish our, you know, objectives. But what I want to say is this, it's not -- the fault doesn't rest with the officers. Once a person say I knows everything there is to know about the union, you still get the same argument, well, why should I join a union? I get the same benefit you get. They know the inside and the outside, but it's that apathy that they have toward getting involved. As long as someone else can solve their problem they're satisfied.

LUCILLE THORNBURGH: Let me say here that the unions certainly do not have a monopoly on the apathy. I'm involved right now in some senior groups -- National Council of Senior Citizens. I'm a board member there. We have four million members. OK, it is very hard for us to get a group of people together 00:02:00that will really do some work unless there is something that particularly affects them.

M3: That's right.

THORNBURGH: When they think their social security is going to be affected, then they're going to come in and talk. But I don't know, maybe apathy is just a -- I think you had it there. They don't want to get involved until it starts affecting them directly. Then you can get them involved. And we do need -- you're right, too, I think there, Sheila, on letting the people know because a lot of times maybe they do not know. I know that's true in our senior groups. They don't know of all the benefits that are available to them. But that's because they don't attend meetings, it goes back to apathy again. Right, Joe?

M4: That's the thing about the problem with some of the unions is people are in the union, people come -- people look at the union as the president, the 00:03:00vice-president, the person that handles the grievances. They think this small group of people in their plant is the union. They don't know that that whole body on the plant -- on the shop floors -- they are the real union in that plant. It's not people pushing papers trying to make the big boss do something that they want. It's the people in the plants making a stand together and whether it be on the plant gates or in the break room, that's where the union's at.

THOM MALCOM: That's just like something that happened to me. I recently run for office but I had done something earlier that made people think I would put 'em out on strike if I got elected. And what they didn't realize was there was no way I could put 'em out on strike. I had one vote just like you. That's what they thought and that cost me an election.

F1: You know one of the things that I say when people tell me, you know, what are you going to do as an officer of the union. I say, hey, look in your mirror and ask what are you going to do?

THORNBURGH: I do the same thing.

MALCOM: They don't realize that they got -- you know, you got one vote just like they do. It's hard to get that across to 'em.

M5: But otherwise you were asking about, you know, how you stop the backsliding and [how's?] all that. But in a way I think the job that we have today is as tough as it may have been, although it's very different than '34, and that is -- I think the same thing's true of the Civil Rights Movement where you had kind of a big, huge demonstrations, right? And people just threw it to the wind. But they were risking getting fired and getting kicked out of their houses and all of the same stuff, but they just kind of made that big bold, you know, you know, play and got publicity and it was bigger than anybody imagined. Bigger than anyone leader or group and -- but then after that, the next phase, maybe that gets a law passed or whatever. And then the next phase trying to get the darned thing enforced. And Civil Rights with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission and those -- all the anti-discrimination laws -- and the same thing with (inaudible) the strike, you know, and the creation of more unions in the South that has happened since then, I mean, that's the tough, hard, relatively, comparatively boring, you know, work and getting the earlier 00:05:00gains kind of solidified.

GEORGE STONEY: Let's talk about history a moment. All of you should tell me, just briefly, what you knew of the history of the unionism in textiles before the last year, OK?

M3: That's a good question. I really didn't know a lot. I'll be honest with you. Even though I've been a union member 13,14 years ever since I've been at Fieldcrest Cannon I've been an officer with my local -- what, five years now. I've been a shop steward ten years. As far as history of my local even, I know very little and maybe I should be ashamed of that. I mean, because it's just -- it's not something you got to day-to-day fight. I mean, 00:06:00you're so busy handling what you gotta handle day-to-day that you don't think about the prior history. You just -- you just know that you've got your nose to the grind and you're doing it day-to-day. I mean, I know very little about it.

THORNBURGH: Let's not kid ourselves about that. The labor movement has not done a real good job of labor education. That's my personal opinion. Maybe some of you would have a different opinion. But I don't think they have done a real good job of labor education. If they had, you would have known more about it.

M6: Yeah, but it's hard -- the only way that unions got to educate people are asking them to come to a meeting, handing out a leaflet on the gate or a newsletter, and so we're very, very limited. So the only thing really that people see about unions, especially down South, is what's on TV or radio. And what do they show on TV and radio -- bad news. Nobody says a plane landed today, no accident, but if one crashes you hear all about it, right? And just like if somebody's on a strike, you'll see something about that strike every 00:07:00day. It might be 15 minutes or five minutes, but you'll see it if it goes on for a year. You'll see something about that strike every day. After the strike is over, no matter which union it is, no matter if they lost or if they won or if the people got fired illegally, got their jobs back -- you don't hear any of that good news. All you hear is that the strike was settled today, the workers went back to work, and the only thing that the people know is that these people were out of work for years -- or, you know, for months and months and the little bit they struck for, you know, they lost that forever. So it's hard for us to educate our people when, you know, like you said, it's hard to get 'em down to the meetings. And like in organizing drives, you're talking about you came and want to see what we're doing different now than you did in 1934, there's no shortcuts. I've worked on organizing drives, I've worked on two of the Cannon, two of the biggest ward elections held in the last 20 or 30 years, uh, industrial election anyway. I've worked on both of those, I've worked on other campaigns. I've worked on where there were like 90 00:08:00people in plant, where there were 300 people in the plant. In Cannon Mills at one time there was 10,500. Now it's down to 7,000. At one time it was 12,000 -- the very first election. But it all -- here's what they do. They don't change a thing at all. Before we can have an election we've got to have 30 percent of the people signed up on a union card, all right? So the first thing they [have me?] to do is come out and tell people you don't know what you're signing. You sign a union card you sign your wife away, you sign your house, your kids -- you sign everything away.

JACOBS: Signing the pay dues.

M6: Once we get that done, once we get those 30 percent of the cards or more, and like Joe said, a lot of times we get 80 percent of them signed or even higher. But when it comes down to an election they get these anti-union lawyers in there and their job is to do nothing to come in and to scare people, intimidate them, and they do it -- not like they did in the '30s where they actually physical violence. But if you think about it, it's not the actual violence. Once you get into a fight, once the first lick is passed, well, then it don't hurt as bad. But the fault of getting into that fight -- and 00:09:00that's what these lawyers do now, they don't actually physically threaten you. But they make you think about it, they make your family think about it, they make your -- you know, your kids think about it. You know, here's what's gonna happen, if you vote that union in, you gonna strike. The union is gonna make you strike. OK, if they can't make you think that the union's gonna strike, they gonna make you think that that plant's gonna shut down. So it's fear. It's what they do is they just scare the heck out of people. And it works now just like it did back then.

THORNBURGH: What I was thinking about is labor education. You know, there's been some very good books, few enough, but there have been some good books on the history and the struggles of the American labor movement, but those books have not been promoted. I had a hard time finding them. You know, people don't know about them, but there really -- really some very good histories. Is that right? Do you feel that way about it?

JACOBS: Well, when you start to talk about education in the trade union movement it depends on where you come from in the trade union movement because we're a big and diverse organization. 00:10:00It ranges all the way from the building trades who have one type of organizing to the industrial plant which has another type of organizing to the service industry which is the retail clerks and retail stores, and the government employees, all of whom have a different type of organizing. But there are some unions who as a basic principle say that we believe in education. There are some unions who say if you've got a trouble maker, send him over to the education courses and eventually we'll get rid of him in some fashion. Take the Ladies' Garment Workers' Union, they have an education department. There are other unions who have an education department. That is another thing, though. Historians, mark my word, historians up until recent time made history how? History of the kings, the wars, the big names, and that was history. 00:11:00History of the little people like us, never.

M3: That's right.

JACOBS: That is changing. Part of the reason that you are here right now. We are making the new history. The history of what? The little people, you and me. Not the ones whose names are going to be in the newspapers. Not the ones whose names are going to be on the radio and say, oh, today is the birthday of Joe Jacobs. He was born in 1861 or 1908 or whatever it was. He's going to be -- he's making history in a different fashion. You're making history in different fashion. Let me give you an example. The Ladies' Garment Workers' Union, and I've worked with them for a long time since the early '30s, too. When they first set up their education department they funded it. They had people like [Fanya?] Corn and Mark Star who wrote pamphlets, who wrote leaflets, who had education classes. When we organized local in Atlanta, local 00:12:00122, named after the New York local which was number 22 -- big dressmakers' local. This was a dressmakers' local. We were bringing history to Atlanta. What did we have? I was a member of the teachers' union. We had a class in how to run your union meeting. We had a class in the history of the union. We had a class in how to use your union contract. We had a tap dancing class. We had a girls' basketball team. I never played basketball in my life, but we got somebody to do it. We had all kinds of classes and the people when they first got organized were enthused about it. They wanted to do it. We had all kinds of enthusiasm. We were educating those people and out of those people we built a strong union. That's why when I said about the jackpot union -- you put your money in and you pull out a jackpot? That ain't the union. The [ILG?] says it's a way of life. Think about it. A way of life. If your 00:13:00union does for you what it ought to do, it should be a way of life. It should educate you. A man brings a book here. Now you tell me if I went down to what mill? Fieldcrest Cannon? --

M3: Yeah, Fieldcrest Cannon.

JACOBS: -- and said, "You know, we had a meeting with one of your employees and he brought a book down there to them." They say, "You better take a look at that guy. He's going to be a trouble maker. You mean that he can read?" (laughter) Part of the basis on which we have built the trade union movement, the Civil Rights Movement, too, is because those of us in trade unions believed in free education for everybody. We believe that people ought to be able to read and write. If you can read and write it'll open your eyes. And if you open your eyes you'll begin to see the world around you. And if you see the world around you, you'll want to improve yourself. That's why I'm 00:14:00against private schools. That's why I say that private schools are going to destroy our public schools and going to make it only for the rich like they have in some other countries. And that's the basis of education. That's the reason that the slavery movement was looking for destruction. Because when some of the slave owners taught some of their slaves to read and write, they opened their eyes. When they taught them to read and write and they opened their eyes, then they had -- when they had this what was the underground tunnel where they could become free men if they escaped to the North because they began to read and understand that they could do it. When they understood that people began to read and write they wouldn't be sweepers in a plant. They wouldn't be satisfied when their eyes were opened. They began to join unions. That's a way of life and that's the sort of thing that we miss in the trade union movement. Those of us who believe in real education -- real history, by the 00:15:00way, because real history's you and me. What we do to change the thing and we can change those things if we have coalitions and if we keep our eyes open. I'm preaching again.

F2: Well, we're enjoying it.

THORNBURGH: Reverend, you did all right.

HELFAND: All right, real quick. When your organizers or union comes to town or you're trying to organize, what do people say to you when they're hearing [we're?] union, what are all those anti-union myths and stories that they throw at you and you have to hear and what have you grown up with? You have five minutes. It's five 'til. OK? So, let's throw it around with each other because --

F3: I don't remember when it was but some decades ago some band of --

HELFAND: Wait, start again -- say that again. And talk to each other. You don't have to talk to me.

F3: I don't know, it was just some elusive past only it wasn't in the '30s. It was like maybe -- who knows? It was like the '40s or '50s. Some elusive time and a band of communists came and got us organized or caused 00:16:00trouble. There was trouble and there was violence and then they left in the middle of the night and (inaudible) treasury. They took all the money. That's what they said.

JACOBS: And they did what?

F4: Took all the money. They took all the money.

M4: That's what you heard about --

F4: Yeah, that's what they said.

M4: I've heard stories from a lot of the older people that I go house calling on no matter what kind of industry they're in. They'll give some story about a friend of theirs, father or mother decided to join a union and they lost the election and the union went and deserted them. They lost their house and the union didn't care once they didn't win the election.

JACOBS: It's all poppycock.

M4: It is.

JACOBS: The word "communist", though. Because of the word communist there's a case called the Hartsville Print and Dye. We had an election there of the United Textile Workers. It was a real hard fought one with all the things that take place in an election. We lost it by just a few votes and as we walked away from the plant, and I was there at the counting of the votes, we 00:17:00walked away and the superintendent walked over to me and said, "Well, that ought to teach you goddamned communists that you can't take over this mill." I said, you know why I was getting ready to leave and go back and let these folks stew in their own juice because they didn't vote for the union, but I said, "When you call me a communist, I said, we gonna have a collective bargaining agreement here." We stayed for the next three days. We got affidavits of what the company had done, and they'd done a lot of things to try and destroy the election. We had the election set aside. We proved a majority of cards. That was the first case in the National Labor Relations Board where we were certified as the collective bargaining agent for the people. We got a contract finally in the darn thing. We didn't have to strike. We finally were able to do it by cutting off their water because it was a print and 00:18:00dye place and we were able to control it through the help of the garment workers up in New York. And when we got the contract they signed it and I asked them to bring that superintendent in of the mill. They brought him in and I said, "You remember you called me a communist? Now whatcha gonna call me?" (laughter)

M2: And he was talking about history. Basically, I've always been a ferocious reader, but most of everything that I knew about the labor movement came about, I guess several years ago as Roosevelt's friend of mine had gotten involved with what it would be like to be a steward. I see this huge volume of books and it just struck my imagination, you know, what's inside these books and I began to read and the more I, you know, dove into the books the more fascinated I 00:19:00became and, you know, we've talked in and around about racism, we've talked about apathy, we've talked about fear. And the one thing that I did learn was that it took a coalition of the races referring to the labor movement, you have the AFL and you had the CIO later on to join, but, uh, there was a separation between blacks and whites and I began to read, um, A. Philip Randolph, you know, his speech and what he said about if we're to work together in the labor union, then the races must come together as one labor union. And once I read that, you know, it just gave me the incentive to keep digging. So, by and large, I was in Atlanta where I learned about the '34 textile strike and, you know, it hit me hard like a bomb had been dropped on me and I wanted to learn more and I even, you know, went out into the community trying to find people who 00:20:00could remember 1934 and if they remembered the year what could they tell me about it? I am sad to say that there was one gentleman that I was told had a memory like an elephant, but he -- I believe had passed on so I have not really gotten an opportunity to get him, but just knowing that this took place and the little bit that I read about it has really instilled in me the drive to go, you know, ever forward.

JACOBS: In 1969 in Atlanta, in George State University we established the Southern Labor Archives. In addition, there we established the Georgia Labor Studies program, still in existence now. At our last meeting of this group called Organized Labor and Workmen's Circle that supports it and they got the regents to OK it, we've got all kinds of papers and documents of labor unions there from all over the South. We started another program and what was the new 00:21:00program? What we're doing right here, an audio-visual program of history of leaders of the trade union movement. When I say leaders I'm not talking about Sydney Hillman and I'm not talking about [Lynne?] Kirkman and I'm not talking about the presidents of the international union. But I'm talking about local leaders, people in the trade unions and the local level stewards, how they came into the union, what they did in the union, and we're developing that program. That's going to be part of the history of what we've developed and we've published several of the histories and with labor unions in the Atlanta area and outside the Atlanta area and we're going to keep on doing it. And that's part of our belief that if you know history and you know what happened, then we may not make the same mistakes again.

THORNBURGH: That is why I mentioned reading the books that had been written -- the good books. Get the history of labor --

JACOBS: A lot of people won't read. That's the reason we're showing (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

THORNBURGH: I guess you're right.

M5: You were asking about what you hear when that's brought up. I mean, the two basic things are, you know, if you mess with the union, come out as '34 (inaudible), if you mess with the union you get fired and even if you're successful they'll shut the plant and you'll lose your job anyway.

F1: And [not?] have that stigmatism on you.

JACOBS: And we ain't gonna give you any more than we would give you without a union. And then as soon as the union's gone they forget.

THORNBURGH: But there's one very important one, too, that I think -- now this is -- remember, I'm talking 1934. I lived in what is termed the Bible Belt of Tennessee and the preachers at that time --

JACOBS: You're in the Bible belt here, too.

THORNBURGH: -- and all the preachers there were talking against unions. Well, they had everybody believing. No, they didn't have everybody, but they had a big majority of a very devout church people believing that if you join the union you're going down. And people don't want to -- generally, don't want to 00:23:00go to hell, so we had that obstacle. Now, do you have that one today?

M3: No, I've never heard that one. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

THORNBURGH: That's wonderful.

F4: But I have worked on large campaigns and small campaigns, but the two most feared things that I've run into on my house calling or talking with the people, is that strike. Number one (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

M3: Strike. That's the first thing.

F4: You all are going to put us on strike. You know, we have to explain it to them --

M3: I can't afford to go on strike.

F4: -- and plant closing. And then, you know, a lot of times they say, well, if my boss even knew you were here talking to me they would fire me. You know, it's just -- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

JACOBS: What is there that's not straight out fear.

M3: That's it.

F4: It's fear.

M1: Now, I have ran into people that was afraid of the union and pointed to the Bible. When I was in Martinsville working on the (inaudible) campaign, I ran into several people that tried to use the Bible to say that --

JACOBS: Mark of the beast.

M1: -- right and I listen to, you know, I listened anxiously to what they had to say and after they had finished I asked if they had a family Bible and of course they said yes. I said, well, let's sit down at the table and let's read together. So, I turned to the book of Ecclesiastes and I turned to the section on labor -- there is scripture on labor and talking about a worker should have good reward for his labor and their eyes lit up once they read that and then I go on down, I believe it was about -- I think it's the third chapter, fourth verse, I believe, I would have to check it, but it reads where there are two or more workers gathered together that if one falls he has the other ones to pick 00:25:00him up. But if he -- woe is he that stands alone for if he falls there's no one to help him up. I said, now, what is this whole chapter talking about? And they said labor. I said, now how is this different from what you're trying to achieve now that if you as employees stand together we can accomplish much, but if you go it alone then you can achieve nothing and that an overall effect. It just changed the whole (inaudible).

THORNBURGH: That's good. I think that's wonderful.

M5: (inaudible) I think there is -- there's still the same things you were talking about in the '30s. They're not saying you're going to hell, but I think there's economic retaliation. I know in my own case with my father being a United Methodist minister he was one of the few who supported the national, you know, boycott against [Jackie?] Stevens. The national Methodist church had endorsed ACTW position and endorsed the boycott. But he was one of the few local ministers in South Carolina who supported that. And in 00:26:00immediately we had some Steven's vice-presidents and managers in our church and immediately they started withholding money and, you know, tried to wreck the budget in retaliation for him taking that stance.

THORNBURGH: So it hasn't changed that much. It hasn't changed that much. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) The only churches that didn't fight us -- I hate to say this, but it's the truth -- the only churches that didn't fight us was the Catholics and the Jews.

JACOBS: That's right.

M4: I've seen a lot of campaigns where the preachers stand up -- stood at the pulpit and preached against the union and, you know, a few months down the road you're driving by and here they've got a new addition to their parking lot, a new barbecue (inaudible), you know. This last campaign in Kannapolis, the big Baptist church --

F5: Had computers and this whole (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) after school tutorial program and it was just like two days after the election in the newspaper. I said they could at least have waited a month. (overlapping 00:27:00dialogue; inaudible)

M4: (inaudible) lawyers to ride out this condemnation of the union and the preacher put his signature on it and I'm pretty sure he got a big fat addition to his bank account.

JACOBS: Now you see, that's a little different than it was in '34. Let me show you how. In '34 we had the mill villages and in the center of the mill village there was a Baptist church and the preacher of the Baptist church worked in the mill and was on the company's payroll. And the company donated the church and the company donated the pews and they donated the Bibles and their name was in each one of them. We belonged to the company and it was the company's church and that's the reason why when we struck, we knew that he wasn't going to come out with us. We knew he would talk against us. But when the change took place where the companies had to turn loose of those villages, 00:28:00then they still were subsidizing it but they weren't as closely controlled. That's when people like the Methodist ministers were able to escape. I know, for example, (inaudible) Bag company in Talladega, Alabama where we had some of our people killed, the church was right in the middle of the place facing the big company office where they could tell whether you went to church or not. The man who owned the thing at that time was real religious. When you didn't show up on Sunday, your foreman asked you why you weren't in church. Over here in Knoxville, Tennessee in the plants that we've been talking about, they stopped for two minutes to pray each day --

THORNBURGH: Absolutely.

JACOBS: -- without prayer --