Bob Freeman and Ray Milton Interview 2

 M1: Thing about him being from South Carolina?

GEORGE STONEY: Uh, I -- she didn't say much about that. She --

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RAYMOND MILTON: And you tell the mills and this and that -- I don't see how the people is going to afford it. It's --

JUDITH HELFAND: The name of the street that the Hendricks family lived on was Central Avenue.

MILTON: Oh, Central -- now you've got it.

HELFAND: Red Hendricks. Well, Raymond Hendricks.

MILTON: Raymond Hendricks or Red Hendricks?

HELFAND: Red Hendricks was the brother.

MILTON: Well, you'd have to get into the Hendricks family to find out some of that. I just can't tell you --

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

MILTON: -- any more about it -- but I guarantee you he's from South Carolina.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah, OK.

ROBERT FREEMAN: There's one thing that Raymond started to touch on a while ago -- he did briefly. When Raymond was on the police force -- and up till now -- 00:01:00they may not be doing it now, but up till Murdock -- when you arrested anybody, you had to make out three reports. You had to make out a report for the daily independent, the Kannapolis Police Department, and for the sheriff's department -- three, they had to write out three. The Kann-- the Independent knew everything. And only polices -- they were hired by Cannon Mills, and then the sheriffs swore them in -- but they were controlled completely by Cannon Mills, they --

MILTON: Right.

FREEMAN: They told them what to do.

MILTON: They didn't— the Sheriff to have no say in it whatsoever.

HELFAND: Maybe mister -- mister -- Milton wants to read this himself. (inaudible)

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

HELFAND: This is, uh, the only document that I have found that proves that there was an organized local here in Kannapolis, and it was written right after the strike in 1934. Could you read it out loud, sir?

MILTON: Ms. Frances J. [Gorman?]. I am writing in regard to Local 4265 -- we have not had any -- what is it? Body? Anybody -- what is that? "Anybody here" -- yeah – "to try to do anything for us. There is still a number that have not got back to work and them that have gone back -- the company is making it so hard for them, they can't hardly stand it. Our Local -- our Local have gone just as far as they can -- came out --or came out in good faith, and are still out -- but there has not been anything done about it, so it looks 00:03:00like now our Local is gone and it don't seem there is any use to try now as they have lost faith in the union." Yeah? They likely starved to death too. "We have had so many promises and nothing done, I myself am almost ready to give up unless there is some action given -- I am going to get out myself what is wrong, have the whole work sold out? What is the matter? We as a poor, hungry people cannot live with something to eat and something to wear and to keep us warm. How do you people in Washington think we can go on and live on air and promises? What we need to is help -- and if you cannot get that for 00:04:00us, then say so and we will not depend on promises any longer. The whole thing is in a mess. Cannon Mills company have barred the union workers out, and it looks like Cannon Mills are running the whole thing. We want to know if they run the whole country -- it looks like it. Mr. Gorman, there are three families here in Kannapolis -- Fortners, and J.A. -- J.A. Carilyes? Fortners" -- I believe he's the man that looked after the mules and farm, stuff over there back then. "And J.A. C-A-R-I-L-Y-E-S -- all of Kannapolis, North Carolina -- 00:05:00please do something about it, if there is anything to what people say in Washington, do something. What we may be able to still have faith in our government. D.W. MacElroy, secretary."

HELFAND: Do you know the names of those people?

MILTON: I know him. MacElroy -- is that the one that I'm thinking about? Austin Mitchell's friend?

FREEMAN: I don't know.

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MILTON: Wrote a long time ago.

HELFAND: This was written in 1934 right after the strike.

MILTON: I know probably his -- some of his people. No, I'm thinking about McIntyre.

FREEMAN: Yeah, McIntyre.

HELFAND: I just -- since you said your uncle had lost job --

MILTON: (inaudible) date 1934. What'd you say?

HELFAND: Since your uncle had lost his job, and these people lost their jobs too for joining the union -- I thought you just might know who they were.

MILTON: I just don't recall if my uncle ever got to go back to work in Cannon Mill or not -- I don't recall. It seems to me -- I believe he did. I believe they put my uncle back to sweeping up in the spinning room -- number five spinning room. I believe they put him back to spinning up, I'm pretty sure they did -- sweeping, give him a sweeping job -- $1.80 a day. Yeah, I think that's right.

FREEMAN: But in '34 -- they did not strike. The only time they ever had a strike was in '21 -- there was no strike her in '34. Chances are that -- like in any organization -- you had cells in there, and set up a local union 00:07:00structure, and elected officers -- but there was no strike here by Cannon Workers.

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

HELFAND: Thank you.

GEORGE STONEY: Thank you very much.

FREEMAN: Yeah, now this -- this thing here -- there's no way in the world that Cannon -- that the company get ahold of this, is there?

GEORGE STONEY: Get a hold of that?

FREEMAN: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: It's in the national archives.

FREEMAN: This is in the national archives, yeah -- but I mean on this thing here, they can't pick it up anywhere, can they?

GEORGE STONEY: Well, if we use it in the final film -- yes.

FREEMAN: OK. Don't use that in the final film. It's -- if they pick that up, they'll destroy you with that. You never would have a campaign anywhere. You know, they'd give --

HELFAND: Could you talk -- maybe you could talk --

MILTON: Well I'll tell you --

STONEY: Well I -- you've done extremely well, if --

MILTON: What I said -- this is true.

FREEMAN: Yeah.

MILTON: I don't care if them knowing it or nobody else --

FREEMAN: Oh no, well we don't care who knows it --

MILTON: That's right.

FREEMAN: But don't anything like that -- it's lived for 60 years, so you can 00:08:00imagine if that come out now, how much longer it would live.

MILTON: I just wondering myself. I'll be frank with you -- this -- we're not on right now, are we?

GEORGE STONEY: No.

MILTON: I don't -- my own personal opinion -- I don't know what Robert's is -- I don't think it's going to be long that there'll be union in Cannon Mill, you know.

FREEMAN: Oh yeah.

MILTON: They like the one at this time. The next time, I believe they'll win. But I don't know -- it all depends.

FREEMAN: But don't -- but don't use that, Judy, on the film.

MILTON: No, no.

FREEMAN: Under no circumstances.

MILTON: (inaudible) I said we're off of the record.

FREEMAN: Yeah, we'd be --

MILTON: I don't want to say --

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HELFAND: Back in the hot seat.

GEORGE STONEY: It's clear to me than in '34 -- there was a strike in '21, a little bit about that -- there was no strike in '34. There was a nationwide strike with the people here -- a local here, but it didn't strike -- why and 00:09:00the fact that they brought in the National Guard.

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FREEMAN: Mm-hmm.

GEORGE STONEY: All right, sir.

FREEMAN: In 1921 they had a union here, they had --

GEORGE STONEY: Sorry, let's start again. (inaudible) Kannapolis, or Concord OK?

FREEMAN: All right, in 1921 they had a union in Kannapolis, and they had officers -- and Cannon, as I understand, recognized the union and was dealing with them. They called a national wide strike in 1921 and the people walked out, and Cannon washed his hands of it -- he never did have anything else to do with them. In 1934 there was no strike here -- but to my knowledge there was no union here, other than maybe they had a local group of people here that called themselves union officers -- but they never did -- was no strike, and the number of pe-- the majority, or 90% of the people worked -- they never came out. They 00:10:00were some that stayed out and tried to get others to come out with them, but they never had no success whatsoever. And they brought in the National Guard -- Cannon brought in the National Guard -- to see if they didn't come out. That was the purpose -- the National Guards being here -- because there was no trouble here at all, not any type of trouble. So the only reason he brought them in here was to intimidate the people to stay in Cannon Mills and not come out -- and that's the reason that he brought in his guards, and his machine guns, and his bayonets, and them patrolling and deputized everybody who wanted to be a deputy to shoot these people even if they act like they wanted to come out and cause any type of disturbance.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, what about subsequent attempts to organize here?

FREEMAN: They've been trying to organize Cannon since the AF of L -- I mean, 00:11:00since the CIO came down here in 1946.

GEORGE STONEY: Start again, they've been since --

FREEMAN: They've been trying to organize Cannon since 1946 when the CIO came down -- and they never had any -- have never had any luck in organizing. As a matter of fact, they never brought it to an election until 1974. And in 1974 they -- I thought -- stood a real good chance of winning it. If you recall, in 1974 is when the industry dropped way down -- millions of people were out of work in all the industries -- steel, textile, auto -- you name it, they were out. Any we were running about in '76 -- '74, we were running about 60% favorable -- union favorable -- about 40% against. We didn't have any strong opposition in the people that were anti-union, they did not do any demonstration 00:12:00because it was a local thing -- we were using local people. And at that time I was the only organizer here, so there wasn't anything that could come up with outsiders coming here, trying to get their money and take it. But after the bottom fell out of the economy, then it reversed itself -- it went from 60% pro-union to 60% anti-union and we carried about 40% of the vote in '74. In 1985 I wasn't involved in it. They did bring in a group of organizers, and they were able to use that outsiders on them because they did have outsiders in here, and the results of that that is they took a licking -- the union did -- about two to one in '85. And now this campaign -- I wasn't involved in it -- so I really don't know -- I know they had a group of organizers in here, but they also had -- they put their local union -- local people up front, so the 00:13:00local people knocked that off on the number of organizers they had, and, uh, they -- they done a wonderful job -- and have the local people upfront on everything. You're on the television, calling up Sanford, talking to Sanford -- was conducted by the local people.

GEORGE STONEY: And with the -- what do you think the future is for organization here?

FREEMAN: Now, at this -- at this point in time -- if they could have an election immediately, they could win an election. But Fieldcrest Cannon will go now as a company that's going to be patting backs, loving workers, doing everything they can to appease them until there's any threat of another election being held. So, in a time -- point of 12 months if it goes -- if they let it go 12 00:14:00months, and then when the board sets to decide and they have it -- you're going to have the same thing to go through that they want through now.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, could you talk about the, uh, the factor of the past and history as a way of effecting labor attempts to organize here? In general and then here?

FREEMAN: Yeah, the people in the south don't -- and particularly in North Carolina, and particularly in this district, don't know anything about unions. They -- they look upon a union as being a group of people that they don't see, that they can't trust, that is in here for one reason and one reason only -- and that's to get what they can out of them and never give them anything in return. And that hasn't changed since 1921 -- they used those same tactics in '21 up until 1991 -- and they'll continue using them until the laboring 00:15:00class of people are org-- or educated to what unions are. They have to understand that they are the union -- that they can control it. Once they can get that across to them, and once they can point out to the people who their true enemies are -- and the true enemies are the associations of big business -- they're the ones that control the worker's life -- they determine what they're going to eat, what type of education they're going to have, what kind of shelter they're going to have, by the charges they put on them for medical care, insurance, utilities, food, housing -- and the people have to realize that they themselves are going to have to organize and band together to overcome the unions that's controlling their lives -- and that's big business. Once you get that, once you destroy this state politically and turn 00:16:00it over to the people -- then you have no -- the people will come to you for organization.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, it seems to me that in the last 20 years with the civil rights movement, that has removed one of the big barriers to unionism earlier -- which was the threat if you form unions, we'll bring in the blacks. Now blacks are in the mills and in the union -- could you talk about that? Maybe my perception is wrong?

FREEMAN: No, they don't use the racial issue anymore. I haven't heard it used in a number of years -- they don't use it as black anymore, they talk about welfare -- which is referring to the black people. But it was the unions themselves that made it possible for black people to have jobs in these plants. Julius Chamber and myself worked to get Cannon Mills integrated -- and we did get it integrated, and we collected around $3 million for them in back pay that they should've been getting because they didn't have a job such as we 00:17:00originally (inaudible). The worst enemy now that labor has -- and that the black people has -- are the black leaders. They've sold out their own people, and this last campaign they had black people in here destroying the very organization that gave them the right to vote, the right to hold jobs in the plant -- and until the black people themselves wake up and recognize that just because he's black doesn't mean he's their friend, they're going to be just like -- they'll be worst because everything that we fought and paid millions of dollars out for to get civil rights legislation passed is going to be destroyed by the very people that we tried to help.

GEORGE STONEY: Good, OK. Hold it for a second.

HELFAND: Back in 1934 when the general textile strike -- I know they didn't strike here, but when the general textile strike happened all over and the 00:18:00National Guardsmen came -- so if you could tell us, you know, "I was ten years old and I lived --" if you lived in a mill village, or your granddaddy worked there and that's how you knew about it -- what your granddaddy did back then, that kind of thing.

FREEMAN: In 1934 I lived in the Cannon Mill village at Cannon Mill house. We've lived in Cannon Mill houses -- the Freemans have -- for the last, uh, 68 years -- that's how old I am. And the house that we lived in is still lived in by my older sister -- Juanita Freeman -- on Southeast Avenue. But when the strike too place in 19-- I mean, when the union effort took place in 1934, we lived in the Cannon Mill house over on -- it's now Forest Avenue -- at that time they called it Grove Street, which was just a short distance from the plant. You could observe the plant and everything that went on at the plant 00:19:00outside the plant from where we lived. So we were -- had a top seat on the guards, and the machine guns, and the activity that was carried on by the national guards, and by the deputies that Cannon Mills deputized to go against these people. My granddaddy -- who was Jake Freeman -- and I were very close. Grandpa was begging people at that time to come out because at that time -- just like it is now in the textile industry -- the people had nothing. They had no security whatsoever -- so he was trying point out to the people that they were no better off than animals -- that they were completely in the control of Cannon mills and that they should come out and put a price on their labor and try to get dignity and respect for themselves. He didn't -- naturally didn't have any success, but he tried. And shortly after 1934 -- Grandpa died 1935, so I 00:20:00don't recall where granddaddy went back in there or not -- I don't much believe he did. I think that he just stayed out.

HELFAND: Wait, I'll tell you when. You ready?

FREEMAN: You know, grandad knew that a worker without a union was just like a beast of burden -- he said that a man that didn't have a union was like a mule; he had to go to work when the boss said, "Go to work." Had to eat what the boss told him to eat, he had to work as long as the boss told him he had to work, and he had to sleep where the boss told him he had to sleep, and under the conditions he told him he had to sleep under. So grandad said that's the way a working man was that didn't have a union. If you didn't have a union, you had no control whatsoever over your life -- and that's what he believed in, that's what he preached.

GEORGE STONEY: Great.

HELFAND: Great.

FREEMAN: It's involved in if the extent he was trying to get a union in Cannon Mills.

HELFAND: OK, that's in '34 your granddad -- or '33, '34 your grandad --

FREEMAN: Thirty-four, yeah.

HELFAND: OK. Could you start that again and tell us that -- and if you saw him actually going out or trying organize or that kind of thing, explain that to us.

FREEMAN: Well --

GEORGE STONEY: Did he make speeches, did he -- did you see the charter, did you -- was it around the house? That kind of --

FREEMAN: No --

HELFAND: Did he hold meetings?

FREEMAN: No, grandad wasn't no speaker. He -- what he was is just a worker. He was -- he would go to their houses and talk to them. There -- as far as I know, I've never been to a union meeting with my grandad and I don't even know where they had a union hall to go to a union meeting at -- they probably did, I don't know. But grandad and I went to people's houses -- and my father did. And he'd go to those houses and talk to those people one on one to try to build up the structure to where they could have a union and come out.

HELFAND: OK. But you just -- so --

FREEMAN: He was out, he was on strike.

HEFLAND: He was on strike. OK. Was it a fragment -- was it a small group of people, a big group of people? Did you remember seeing them standing outside across from the guards? We don't know anything about this.

FREEMAN: No, I never seen a big group of people standing across from the guards. The only people I saw was people like grandad who were pro-union and who would huddle together themselves and try to figure out how they could get him out -- where they could raise their standard of union. But there were no meetings that I ever -- I never attended any meetings -- other than just neighborhood meetings.

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JAMIE STONEY: It's a combination of thunder, rain, roosters, and dogs.

[Silence]

M: I think we need to get 15 more seconds.

[Silence]