Bill Irby and Clyde Deitz Interviews

 JAMIE STONEY: Rolling.

GEORGE STONEY: I think. Hey, Mr. Irby.

BILL IRBY: Yes, sir.

GEORGE STONEY: I've got some pictures here from Kannapolis. I wonder if you look at them and tell them what they -- what they remind you of.

IRBY: Oh.

GEORGE STONEY: They are all from 1934.

IRBY: I see guards.

GEORGE STONEY: Remind you of anything that you saw?

IRBY: This first picture reminds of a [bunch of -- first time around, around up 00:01:00there, yeah?]. I was trying to go to work, but the guards there and the ladies coming in the mill. They let ladies coming in the mill, got police standing at the door. There's some more going to work. The guards still. The people going to work with the guard standing there. That's probably guards just 00:02:00sitting around there, just waiting to see what's going on.

GEORGE STONEY: None of that reminds you of what you saw?

IRBY: No. I just -- because I was working up at the YMCA, at the YMCA right up there behind there.

GEORGE STONEY: That was right, the YMCA was right behind all that.

IRBY: Yeah. Uh, this was -- it looks more like the mayoral hall. I don't know what that is.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. OK. Thank you.

IRBY: I don't know what those are.

GEORGE STONEY: Thank you very much.

IRBY: You're welcome.

GEORGE STONEY: That worked fine.

IRBY: That didn't work real fine.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. OK. How long have you had this shop?

IRBY: Here?

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

IRBY: Ever since I retired in '74.

GEORGE STONEY: Tell us about your shop.

IRBY: Oh, I sit around here, I lose money sitting around here. I lose money, have something to do with income in here. Well, most of our friends have died, but they'd come in here. My friends come in here, people looking for stuff. I know all the different things in here, but I don't know what y'all want. Just have something to do. That's all I got going. That's the only thing I got.

GEORGE STONEY: It's a great -- great looking place.

IRBY: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah. I just have a feeling that if you come in here, you have a feeling somewhere in this place is exactly what I need.

IRBY: Yeah, that's right. A lot of people say -- a lot of store. They say, it's empty. But a lot of people send them up here, they go, we know we can find it in here. (laughter) They find things I didn't know I had.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

IRBY: Well, I guess, I was supposed to retire in '77, but I say, I'm going to stop working? I got to keep doing it. You got to keep going to have something to do all the time, I think. You need something.

GEORGE STONEY: What about your family?

IRBY: My mother and pa both passed away and my oldest brother, three of my brothers is dead, and I have a sister still. I have one sister. I have one brother in Concord, he never comes to see me though. He's tied up in Concord. 00:05:00And I have one sister in Kannapolis, and one in [Saluda?]. That's all I have.

GEORGE STONEY: Any children?

IRBY: I'm not married. Got nobody but myself. Nobody to tell me what to do. (laughter)

GEORGE STONEY: OK, Jamie, that's fine. OK, let's get a shot of the –

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GEORGE STONEY: All right sir, just tell me who you are where you live so we'll have it on the tape.

DEITZ: I am Clyde Deitz, I live in Belmont, North Carolina.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, Mr. Deitz, could you tell me where you were born and how you get into textiles?

DEITZ: Well, I was not born in Belmont, but my family moved to Belmont from western North Carolina when I was a very small child. Of course, my first years in Belmont were spent in school. My work in textiles began with summer work when I was in school and hoping to go to college. I spent two summers working at a textile mill, working at night from --

JAMIE STONEY: Excuse me, we're going to have stop for a second --

GEORGE STONEY: How's that?

JAMIE STONEY: That's much better.

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

JAMIE STONEY: Rolling.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, now just tell me how you got into textile.

DEITZ: Well, I grew up in, in this textile town. And, uh, as a high school student --

GEORGE STONEY: I'm sorry, let's do it again and name Belmont, all right?

DEITZ: I grew up in this textile town of Belmont, North Carolina. And as a high school student hoping to attend the university, a friendly overseer gave me a job at a cotton-spinning mill in the summer of 1929. And again after my freshman year at college in the summer of 1930. I felt fortunate to be able to work because jobs weren't easy to come by in those days. I really don't remember how much I earned, but it was probably five or six dollars a week. But five or six dollars a week could buy quite a bit in those days.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, what -- tell us about the next time you worked in textiles.

DEITZ: After going to school for two years -- going to college for two years -- I dropped out to recoup my finances and again, a friend gave me a job in a hosiery mill, which was a fairly new enterprise in Belmont. And, uh, I remember quite well what I earned then. I was paid $12 a week. It was a very attractive wage because most of the people who were working then probably made less than 10. So --

GEORGE STONEY: Do you remember when the NRA came in?

DEITZ: Well, I went to work in March of 1932. NRA came into the picture about a year and a half later, I believe. I don't remember exactly, but --

GEORGE STONEY: I'm sorry, that's -- because I can tell you that and then you can incorporate it. It came in in June of '33.

DEITZ: June of '33.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah, let's start again, all right, sir?

DEITZ: All right. I went to work in the hosiery mill in March of 1932 and, uh, worked continuous there after. The NRA came into the picture in June of 1933, after I had been working for almost a year and a half. I don't remember how that affected me personally, but I know most of my fellow workers got an increase in pay because the minimum wage was somewhat higher than the wage they had been earning.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, could you tell us about the codes and how they -- you were in management by that time, and could you tell us about how the codes affected management?

DEITZ: Well, I really, really wasn't in management in the strictest sense, though I might have been called a management trainee. So I was interested in 00:12:00the effect of the NRA from the management point of view, even though I was a relatively low-paid worker myself and still only about 20 years old. As I recall, there was some degree of stimulation in business when the NRA came into the picture. Probably because of the anticipated increase in prices of goods. So we had somewhat more to do for a while. Unfortunately, this stimulation to business didn't follow indefinitely and after two or three years, I began to wonder whether small businesses like that I was engaged in had really benefitted from the changes that had come about.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, you were -- I believe you were connected with the chamber of commerce there at the same time, weren't you?

DEITZ: Well, we didn't have a chamber of commerce at that particular time. We did later, but we did have civic organizations and, and I did some of the usual things that are requested of one about heading this drive or heading that drive. So -- and I was also interested in what was going on in the town, as was my employer. So we, uh, we were not uninterested in the economic status of citizens of the town, generally. Most of the cotton mills in the town had villages where their employees could live. The hosiery mills did not and they were dependent on people, sometimes who lived in mill villages or sometimes lived elsewhere. One of our concerns was housing for our employees because there wasn't any excess of housing in the town for industries other than cotton yarn spinning.

GEORGE STONEY: Now at that time -- and certainly right through the '30s -- a lot of the chamber of commerce type thinking, people were doing things to get more industry to come to the town. Do you recall any efforts like that to try to get more industry into Belmont or make the atmosphere more conducive to business?

DEITZ: There'd been an interest on part of Belmont's textile leaders to diversify somewhat. One of their endeavors was to -- was to bring a plant that would mercerize cotton yarn. Uh, they attempted to run it themselves but weren't too successful and then leased the plant to a northern company called Aberfoyle Manufacturing Company, which ran it successfully for many years thereafter. Another attempt was to build a weaving plant, South Fort Manufacturing Company grew out of that effort. But their endeavor to operate a weaving plant in Belmont again was unsuccessful and it was converted to a yard 00:15:00spinning plant, which seemed to be Belmont's particular forte.

GEORGE STONEY: Did they do anything about, saying, increasing the supply water, or lowering tax breaks, or did they give people a tax -- or holidays for a while? Or anything like that to get industry to come in?

DEITZ: To get the mercerizing operation going in Belmont, the people who banded together to finance this undertaking also built a water plant, which a company owns even to this day and supplies water to the entire community. The plant has been expanded many times, but it's still privately owned and supplies water to the community of Belmont and to other enterprises that have followed. Perhaps 00:16:00one of the principal things that took place in this connection was the building of a dyeing plant. It followed in about 1930 and then another one in more recent times.

GEORGE STONEY: Well, now, do you recall any special concessions that were given --

M1: Excuse me --

GEORGE STONEY: Oh, so his level is all right, right?

M1: Yeah, if I can just have his speak once so I can hear him?

GEORGE STONEY: All right, just cite your name again.

DEITZ: Clyde Deitz.

M1: Perfect.

GEORGE STONEY: Good, all right.

JAMIE STONEY: We're rolling.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, back to the efforts of people in the town to get industry to come in.

DEITZ: The people in Belmont who had their fortunes invested in the cotton textile industry, I think in those days were aware that the cotton textile industry might fall on hard times and they looked for other things to do that would diversify the risk, so to speak. One of those things was, uh, seeking things that were connected with textiles. Like finishing the yarn, dyeing the 00:17:00yarn, even weaving it. Some of those things were successful, some were not. Another endeavor that began in the late '20s was the building of hosiery mills. And two or three were started in Belmont in those days and two of them continued successfully even until today. One of them is a lady's hosiery manufacturer, well known in the market as the manufacturer of Vision Hosiery, and the other is a manufacturer of men's and children's hosiery known as Belmont Hosiery Mills, Incorporated. That was the company with which I was affiliated in in its beginnings in the 1930s.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, you mentioned there was concern --

M1: Pause for a second, I'm getting some -- a little bit of clothes rustling now because it's on there. It's stuck in there. Should take care of it. 00:18:00Just a little bit, shift your weight.

F1: Yeah, that was nice when you gestured with your hands a little bit.

M1: A good mic now, it won't -- won't have any problems now.

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

JAMIE STONEY: Do you want to redo the thing about Belmont?

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah, maybe we better do that. All right sir, let's talk about Belmont's efforts to get other industries in.

DEITZ: Many of the men who had their fortunes invested in cotton spinning in Belmont, I think felt that the future was uncertain there and they sought to -- other types of investments that might spread the risk, so to speak. So they, first of all, built a plant -- the purpose of which was to finish cotton yarn, make it more marketable -- that was a process called mercerizing, another 00:19:00plant was devoted to dyeing cotton yarns. They even built a plant, which would be for weaving cotton yarns. Some of those endeavors succeeded, some of those didn't. But another effort was toward entering the hosiery industry. This took place in the late 1920s and uh, ladies' hosiery manufacturing concern was started and also a sock manufacturing concern for men's and children's socks was begun in the late '20s.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, so many people in the South seem to think that all of this happened only because Yankee money was coming in. Could you talk about that?

DEITZ: Well, the efforts of this nature that took place in, in the town of Belmont were all with local capital. I think that was the unique thing about the city of Belmont because it had begun in the cotton textile industry with the 00:20:00leadership of men who had grown up on farms in this vicinity and were engaged in the mercantile business at the time they entered the cotton textile business. And, and as the cotton textile business progress -- and it did make rapid strides during the teen years -- it accumulated capital for these other endeavors. Years between the two wars -- World War I and World War II -- were far more difficult, and the accumulation of capital then was not so easy. But some did take place.

GEORGE STONEY: And your local banks then, were able to carry that along as well?

DEITZ: The bank in Belmont, in fact it was called the Bank of Belmont, was also a local enterprise capitalized by the same men who were leading the textile industry.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, let's talk about those local men. You don't have to name them, but again, there's a misconception that these fellas in textiles 00:21:00always depended on people from the North when you and I know that a lot of them went to NC State and to Clemson and to Georgia Tech. Could you talk about where those young men got their training and got their ideas?

DEITZ: Well, one of these young men who started with the mills in Belmont about early in this century, had worked in other mills outside of Belmont. And he came here to join the two men who were in -- who were in the mercantile business. And one provided the cotton mill expertise and the other provided the business know-how to start these mills. And the mills started one by one, one in 1904, one in 1907, another in 1911, and so on. Until by the late '20s, we 00:22:00had about 15 of them.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, how many of those fellows are second-generation in textiles -- had gone to the textile schools of NC State, or Clemson, or Georgia Tech?

DEITZ: The men who started the industry, the early generation, were not technically trained. But their sons generally did go to the university and also many of them went to schools like UNC or Davidson and then took a year or two at North Carolina State in textiles. So they and others they brought in to work with them in the '30s and '40s began to change the character of the management of the industry somewhat.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, in the management of the industry, they got to be more efficient and there was a lot of dispute about that. Some people call it the 00:23:00stretch out, some people call it bee-do system, some people call it efficiency. Could you talk about all that?

DEITZ: Not having actually spent much time in the cotton spinning industry itself, what I say about the working conditions and the management practices might not be exact, but, uh, it is true that greater efforts were made to, to go along the line of industrial engineering as time went along. Now, of course this also came from the machinery manufacturers who were improving machinery and pointing out the opportunities for more efficient management. And these things came into play along with changes in the governmental influences too. Sometimes 00:24:00the NRA is thought of having brought in the stretch out system, so to speak, but I -- my impression is that this was really just attended upon a trend that was taking place anyway in the industry.

GEORGE STONEY: That's a statement I've been trying to get for six months from somebody. (laughter) It's very precise and unique, that's -- that's very good. OK, now, what about the attitude towards the working people in Belmont? I know that you said in the First World War they had to go out and find them and bring them in. You might start by saying, well, at first, they were pretty well local people, and then they had to go out and get them from the mountains, the way you said. And so there was a -- there began to be a kind of separation, I believe, in the town. But don't let me put words in your mouth. Uh.

DEITZ: I think most of the people who first worked in the textile mills came 00:25:00from the rural areas close by, but during World War I, when business was very good and uh, oh, the war was making other demands for labor, the manufacturers here did have to look further afield to find workers. And they went to western North Carolina, eastern North Carolina, and even South Carolina. And people came in from more remote areas to live and work in the textile mills in Belmont. In the 1920s, the problem was not a shortage of labor, but rather a -- I would say an excess of it. And this continued true into the '30s. The people who worked in the mills were not only concerned about, oh, the earnings, but they were concern -- the rate of the earnings, but they were also concerned about how much time they would be able to work. The difficulty is the competitive nature of business at that time for short-time operations quite often. So one of the 00:26:00concerns of the people who worked in the mills was that I might not get a full weeks work or, uh, and uh, of course that meant a little more difficulty in getting your bread bask--bread basket filled.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. That's all good stuff, I wonder if you'd go again, all right, sir?

DEITZ: Well, during World War I, there was a great demand for the products of the mills. When the war was over, that picture changed quite a bit and the demand for cotton yarn was not always as great as the supply. More often than not, the reverse was true and prices, uh, became deflated and, and there was a great deal of severe competition between the mills. Even within the town of 00:27:00Belmont, they competed with each other. And of course they competed with mills in other towns. It was very hard to, to maintain full operations if you didn't have the lowest price and having lowest price also depended upon having the lowest cost. The situation was very competitive throughout the '20s and '30s, there were just very brief periods when business would flow fairly freely.

GEORGE STONEY: Could you -- do you remember how many quarters, roughly how many quarters your, the factory you worked for -- the plant you worked for -- did not make its dividend?

DEITZ: Well, I -- the plant I worked for was in knitting and we were not a part of the cotton spinning industry, but we were closely related to it. We used the product of the cotton spinning industry in our product, and of course, we lived 00:28:00in the same community and the wage and living conditions were similar in both industries. The business I was with was new, it began in 1929, and it struggled for a decade before it ever earned a profit. It was that hard to get a business going in those years under competitive conditions.

GEORGE STONEY: Good. All right, now, one of the big items in the cost of textiles, much more then than now even, was the price of labor. Could you talk about the price of labor and, uh, how that --