Don McKee and Sol Stetin Interview 2

 (beep)

GEORGE STONEY: (laughter) He's getting a close-up on your tie with the -- the ACTWU.

SOL STETIN: Oh. (laughter)

JUDITH HELFAND: Actually, if you -- you might want to say that you -- do you always wear an ACTWU tie?

STETIN: No. Not always.

JAMIE STONEY: Do you always wear a union-made tie?

STETIN: Yes. I have a fight with my wife about that because some -- there are some ties that don't have the label only because the label fell off.

JAMIE STONEY: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. Tell us about what's it's like working on a factory where you don't have control and you --

STETIN: Well, we have very little to say about whatever the employer says. We have to do whatever he says. But things weren't quite as bad in my shop as they were in some of the other shops. But the conditions of work were always bad -- the heat, the fog that you had to work in, the water, the dirt that you 00:01:00had to work in. But there was quite a difference once we formed the union and I became the shop chairman. I used to get a kick out of sitting down with the employer and submitting my grievances to him. But we got along pretty well. Of course, we had some arguments with some of the workers that didn't want to join the first year. And I used to have some real violent arguments with people. I remember one guy said he's gonna hit me. I said, "You hit me, boy, you're gonna hit the union. You can't do that!" And -- but there was quite a difference in the way we were treated by the employer once the union became the collective bargaining agency.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, Judy, who is having to get all of this stuff in a short period of time, says that she wants you to tell us again why you came to that convention in '34 and how you got there.

STETIN: Uh, I was a -- an -- I came to the -- my first convention in August of 1934 having been an activist person in the dyer union. I was a volunteer organizer. When we formed the union, um, I became the shop chairman in my plant and I remember attending classes with [Mark Star?] and, uh -- and, uh -- [Joel Sideman?] from the University of Chicago. They taught us, uh, how to run a meeting. They taught us something about the history of unions. They taught us something about how you put a contract together, how you have a shop steward system, and, so, I became an activist person. I learned how to type with two fingers. I learned how to cut a stencil, how to put a newsletter together. In those days, we used to get 10 cents out of every dollar that we collected in 00:03:00dues for the shop chairman. Well, I would take my 10 cents -- we had around 280 members -- I would get 28 dollars. I would buy mimeograph paper and I would put out a newsletter in my shop. So, I became very active in the union. And, so, when the union was selecting delegates, I was elected as a delegate to -- to go to this convention. In fact, at that '34 convention, I roomed with [George Baldansy?], the then-president of the Dyers Federation, which had been formed just that April. That April, the six local unions that formed a dyers union in a strike in '33, formed a federation and I w-- I was very active in that federation. I was very -- in fact, I was involved in some local strikes in New 00:04:00Jersey. We had a strike in North Bergen, New Jersey so that I was an activist type of a person. And, so, I was elected as a delegate. And we went to this convention. We stayed at the Hotel Woodstock. I roomed with George Baldansy. We had two beds. And, um, it was a big room -- we -- if I recall correctly, I -- I -- I make mention of this because of my experience with [Jack Rubenstein?] who woke us up around eleven o'cloc-- eleven thirty at night. We had already gone to bed. And we had quite a conversation. But, um, I don't know whether that answers your question about my -- how I got to be a delegate to the convention.

HELFAND: Um, I guess it does. It does. I'd like -- let me just ask you one other thing. Did you spend any -- any time -- you know -- was it -- was it all formal meetings or was there ever a caucus where the seven delegations sat down 00:05:00with a group of people and --

STETIN: Oh, yes.

HELFAND: Could you describe that to us?

STETIN: Well, I don't recall, but I'm sure that we met with a lot of different delegates in a lot of different rooms at night, but I don't have specific in my mind who we met with.

GEORGE STONEY: Talk about the music at the convention.

STETIN: Music? God, you know, I don't remember. I just don't remember whether we had any music. You know, it's a funny -- I would remember it if there was music because I loved to sing. I don't remember that we had any music at that convention as we did -- once we formed a CIO, we always had music at convention.

GEORGE STONEY: Could you talk about the role of Norman Thomas at that convention.

STETIN: Well, I think he spoke at that convention.

GEORGE STONEY: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) start.

STETIN: Norman Thomas, I believe, spoke at that convention and he was very, very 00:06:00impressive. In fact, it's interesting that we were a more militant union. As I recall, at that '34 convention, we were talking about the importance of political action, we were talking about the need for more -- more of a labor party idea at that convention.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, that was held against the union in the south by a lot of newspapers.

STETIN: I don't recall that. I -- George, I don't recall that because, if you're talking about the fact that we come out that we were interested in a labor party and that we had Norman Thomas -- God, we certainly appreciated the support of Norman Thomas. And we liked the idea that we needed a labor party. I felt that way -- felt strongly that we needed a labor party in those days. We need it now!

GEORGE STONEY: OK. (laughs)

HELFAND: I'd like to add one more question.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah. Yeah.

HELFAND: Sol, having attended the convention and meeting the seven workers, and, in your answer maybe you can mention that, did it change your attitude? Did it change your idea, your image, of the southern worker? Or what happened?

STETIN: It did. It made me --

HELFAND: Start with a full sentence.

STETIN: The impression that I got from the strikers in the south was that we needed a strong union. They -- they impressed me in being genuinely interested in a better life for their families, for themselves, and for the union movement. Yes. They affected me spiritually and idealistically -- ideologically -- that we needed a strong labor movement to counteract the viciousness of the employers power structure against the working people.

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

STETIN: And, by the way, when I talked about a labor party, I said, "I think 00:08:00we need -- I think we need the kind of a political organization that they have in the western European countries and that they have in Canada -- like the socialist New Democratic Party. I'm for that strongly. We ought to do something like that in this country."

JAMIE STONEY: OK.

GEORGE STONEY: Good. Hey, Jamie, we're gonna break from this setup, then.

JAMIE STONEY: OK. Let me just grab a (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) here.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. I guess I'll take this. Just a moment.

HELFAND: Let me (inaudible) um, I guess -- I guess I have this image -- I'm just cu-- I just have this image of, you know, a sou-- one of the southern workers standing up there and explaining to the whole group, you know, in detail what was going on back home and asking them to call a strike. They did -- you had to vote for a general strike, yes?

STETIN: Oh, sure. There was a vote.

HELFAND: Oh.

STETIN: Of course there was a vote for a general strike. That was a decision 00:09:00made by the convention. There was a resolution. There was --

GEORGE STONEY: I just -- hold on. Roll that out again.

JAMIE STONEY: Go ahead.

STETIN: There was a resolution introduced.

GEORGE STONEY: You're -- once -- stick --

STETIN: There was a resolution that was introduced after a report was made on what's happening in the south by the leadership of the union at the time, by the rank-and-file people, by the officers of the different local unions. And it was a result of all that discussion that this resolution was introduced. And it was passed. I don't think anybody was against it.

GEORGE STONEY: And tell -- describe Gorman as a person.

STETIN: I like Gorman. He was a good person. He was an able guy -- so was Tom McMahon. They were good people, but they were ineffective. They didn't have -- they just didn't have the support of the AFL in those days and that's -- 00:10:00you know, people are affected as they come across to others on the basis of the support they're given. And they weren't given any support. But I think that they were both good men.

GEORGE STONEY: Why do you think that the AFL, in general, did not support the textile strike?

STETIN: Well, in those days, the AF of L was more concerned with craft unionism. And, here, the textile industry was an industrial society. It was made up of industrial workers and we believed that all the workers should belong to one union. But there wasn't any genuine interest on the part of the leadership of the AF of L at that time in organizing industrial workers.

GEORGE STONEY: Good.

HELFAND: One more question. The southern -- the southern strikers that -- that 00:11:00you met at the convention -- and I imagine -- how to -- was this the first time, for them you think, that they were out on strike?

STETIN: I would --

HELFAND: Talk about their activism. Was it a new activism or was it --

STETIN: I would say that over the years, in the 20's, there were sporadic strikes in '28 and '29 and '30 and '31 there were constant strikes that were beaten. They were always beaten. And when the NRA came out and you had that section 7A that said the workers have the right to organize, it gave them a new lift. But they had been out on strike before. They were sporadic strikes, but they were never strongly organized as they were in Alabama. And it was in Alabama that the first strike took place before the general strike.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, [Udigar?], you had a question?

UDIGAR: Well, I was wondering just how -- if he -- if now, 50, 60 years later, it seems the labor movement has succeeded in saving a better life for -- for -- for the laborer or not? Or was defeated?

STETIN: I would say, today -- to the question have -- what has been the effect of unionism all through these years, I would say that the standard of living of the workers in the textile industry, union and non-union, is much better because of the sacrifices that were made by those people back in 1934. Yes. The workers conditions are much better. And they're better because there was a strong union movement that brought about these standards. To that extent, the northern workers were very helpful to the southern workers, including those that never joined a union, but especially were helped by the workers that formed 00:13:00unions in the south and are still in existence. There are many, many local unions still in existence today from that strike in 1934.

GEORGE STONEY: Good. That's fine. OK. We'll break. Excellent.

STETIN: OK.

(break in video)

DON MCKEE: That is dorm room. And guess what we had for breakfast? Toast. And, then, we stayed for lunch and guess what we had for lunch? Toast. (laughter) George with a self-help worker -- he worked his way through Carolina scrubbing windows --

STETIN: Beautiful?

MCKEE: -- and that's what he lived on. Toast.

GEORGE STONEY: Means I was cheap. (laughter)

STETIN: You told me that he helped. You told me he helped form a union.

MCKEE: He did. He sure did.

HELFAND: Tell us about that.

MCKEE: Well, George was a window washer and he was a self-help student. So, he organized all the self-help students. And the fascinating thing is guess who 00:14:00came to the first meeting? The president of the university against whom he was organizing. And that was [Frank Porter Graham?] and Graham said, "I really am very happy that you people have organized and I think it's a good thing because you're going to let me know what your grievances are and you're going to, uh, have, uh -- give me some information that I don't ordinarily get. Congratulations and I'll do everything I can to work with you.

STETIN: That's beautiful.

MCKEE: And George was the organizer on that.

GEORGE STONEY: And Don was -- you're reporting that for the Tarheel?

MCKEE: Sure.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

MCKEE: Yeah. Front-page news.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, Don --

MCKEE: Sure. I got all the copies of the Daily Tarheel.

GEORGE STONEY: Don was a -- Don was a -- the editor of the paper.

MCKEE: Yeah.

STETIN: That's remarkable to tell us that you've got all these materials from your history with the Textile Workers Union of America. I think we ought to have that in our archives.

MCKEE: Well, archives where? Here?

STETIN: In Wisconsin.

MCKEE: Wisconsin.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, gentlemen. We're ready to go.

JAMIE STONEY: I might (inaudible) rolling.

GEORGE STONEY: You and -- you are ask -- ask Don what effect he thought -- thinks the '34 strike had on -- (inaudible) is when you came down to be an organizer and, Don, then, you said, well, that was in x -- what -- the year it was when you did and the attitudes that were left -- left with. And, then, you tell him what you think. OK? Ready to go?

JAMIE STONEY: We're rolling.

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

STETIN: Uh, Don, what was your impression when you worked for our union -- the Textile Workers Union of America between '39 and '49. What was the impact of the '34 strike -- that very famous strike of 400,000 textile workers?

MCKEE: Well, I began working with the Textile Workers Union CIO in the summer of 00:16:001939. My place of work was, first, in Spartanburg, South Carolina and in Greenville. I think the '34 strike has two main impacts. First of all, it did furnish some of the leadership for the Textile Workers Union CIO. The state director under -- with whom I work -- Paul Christopher has gotten his training at a union leader, really, in that strike and, uh, HD Red Lisk had also been very prominent in that episode. Moreover, when it came to organizing people in communities like Gaffney, some of the most prominent leaders of the union in 00:17:00that town had really, uh, gotten insights on the importance of labor organization by being in that '34 strike, which, incidentally, was only five years, uh, before I started trying to organize for the Textile Workers Union. So, sometimes, the experiences of the '34 strike had helped build local leadership, too, for the union movement. But, on the whole, the 1934 strike had a very disastrous impact on efforts to organize in Spartanburg and Greenville, South Carolina and in other towns where I was making an effort. Oh, even in 00:18:00Gaffney, South Carolina. Typically, what a worker would say is they had gone out on the '34 strike (church bells) and they, "Didn't get nothing," as they said. Many of them --

GEORGE STONEY: Just a moment. (inaudible)

HELFAND: We'll wait 'til 11:01.

GEORGE STONEY: Start with the bad things, OK?

MCKEE: OK. But, on the whole, the result of the '34 strike was disastrous for our efforts to organize workers in Spartanburg, South Carolina, Greenville, and Gaffney. The -- typically, what a worker would say is, oh, they had gone out in 1934, they had participated in the '34 strike, but they, "Didn't get nothing," as they would say, and that the union had let 'em down and that, 00:19:00therefore, they didn't want to have anything to do with joining a union again. I would, of course, mention that that was UTW – AF of L -- and this is a Textile Workers Union CIO and it's a new and powerful union that had made all kinds of success in the mass-production industries. But that didn't make much difference --

STETIN: You didn't do --

MCKEE: I think on the whole --

STETIN: Didn't the employers also propagandize the workers to get them to believe the rumors they were spreading that unions ran away with your dues money, etc., etc. Didn't they put the unions in a bad light? What was the role of the employers when you were trying to organize --

MCKEE: Oh.

STETIN: -- when they refer to the '34 strike?

MCKEE: Well, I -- well, I didn't run into any particular references by employers to the '34 strike. Here was a main problem that, as a result of 00:20:00that strike, a lot of textile workers had lost their jobs. Textile workers who had participated in the strike had been blacklisted. And what I really think -- for story was -- is that the textile workers in unorganized mills who were really afraid of losing their jobs used the 1934 strike as an excuse for not joining the union. But, in Greenville and in Spartanburg, South Carolina, the strike didn't help us at all. It was very adverse to trying to get new organization. They felt that they had joined the union, had participated in a strike, and that nothing had come of it. Incidentally, even the workers who 00:21:00would say that they didn't get anything out of the '34 strike, they would go into raptures on their activity during the strike. They were -- that was a big occasion for them -- an occasion when they had asserted their independence and their dignity and they would tell you all the courageous and exciting things that they, individually, had done during the strike. But don't ask them to join again.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, could either or both of you talk about the effect of -- how -- why was it different with the New Deal and Roosevelt and so forth -- their reaction in '34 and in '38, '39? What did you have that you didn't have in '34?

MCKEE: Well --

GEORGE STONEY: This is leading up to the --

MCKEE: Yes.

GEORGE STONEY: -- National Agri-- labors and board and so forth.

MCKEE: Yes. Well, I think one of the big things that made a difference with 00:22:00Roosevelt was the organization of the CIO. Because, when the CIO organized in 1935 and in just a matter of a few years had brought all the mass-production industries except for Ford under effective bargaining contract and when the CIO had established political action committees -- that Roosevelt recognized a tremendous power, which potentially organized labor could play in election in the country. And I think that had something to do with his more friendly attitude because, actually -- if you exaggerate a little bit -- what Roosevelt did was he made a winning combination of workers, farmers -- who he took away from the Republican Party -- and the few black people in the country which were 00:23:00voting at that time. And organized labor was one of the crucial elements in that coalition, which was successful in electing him four times.

STETIN: I can add to that that the impact of the formation of the political movement of labor by forming laborers non-partisanly where they set up state-wide organization and county-organizations all over the country and it made a major role in helping reelect Roosevelt in 1936.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, could you talk about your -- what happened (clock chime) to you. I want -- can you describe -- I want to show that the violence in '34 was not isolated, that it continued. So, maybe you want to say that that there was a lot of violence in '34 -- 15 killed and so forth -- and didn't stop 00:24:00with just '34 and, then, Don will tell about what happened to him in '39.

STETIN: In that strike in '34 there was a lot of violence provoked by management -- provok-- provoked by the use of detective agencies and spies and even used by the police, like Governor Talmadge in Georgia and the viciousness of the administration in attacking the rights of the workers. But that continued. It didn't just go on in the '34 strike. That continued right through the 30's and right through the 40's because the southern employers just didn't want to see their workers organize. They didn't believe in workplace democracy. They didn't feel that workers needed a labor organization to protect that, that individuals were free to come in and talk to 00:25:00the employer. And they knew how ridiculous that was.

MCKEE: Well, Sol, I would say, you know, I was the victim of violence about eight times. But since you asked about 1939 in Gaffney, South Carolina where we were trying to organize and did, finally, get under collective-bargaining contract -- the four Hamrick mills -- well, I was beat up at the Hamrick Mill gate when I was distributing literature. I accompanied a member of the United States Labor Department to the Alma Mills to make an investigation when a car drove up in front of us and another car drove up behind us and, then, the car in front of us stopped and the car behind us stopped. A huge mob of anti-union 00:26:00workers at the Alma Mill surrounded us. We were stopped right in front of the porch of one of the company houses. A person came out with a shotgun and leveled it at my head. Uh, this type of episode took place for other people, too. For instance, [William Spencer?] who is with the National Labor Relations Board was molested when he went into Gaffney to make an investigation for workers who had been discharged for union activity. And when we were trying to contact workers in the Alma Mill, there was a machine gun (laughs) right up over the front door of the factory, comparable to the kind of machine guns that had 00:27:00been mounted on the roof of mills during the '34 strike in the south.

STETIN: Let me just add, since I was in a strike -- conducting a strike in '36 in Derby, Connecticut -- we had gangster elements come in and break up out picket lines. In fact, there was a bombing of a car. They tried to blame the union for it. And fortunately, they -- their charges didn't get them anywhere. But I -- I still recall vividly. And, one example, in 1937 when the President of our union Amol Reevy and the Director of the Synthetic Yarn Division in our union, went and met with the President of the American Viscose Corporation that employed 15,000 workers. And when Herb Levy -- Herb Paine and Amol Reevy -- learn that the company was employing spies, the two of them went 00:28:00to Philadelphia to meet with the owner who happens to be a Quaker. He was a member of the American Friends Service Committee. He was a man of peace. And he said to them, "I don't believe it." He said, "Yes, you are employing spies and strike-breaking agencies in all of your mills." He says, "Let me look into it." And he said, "You come back and see me in a week." Within that one week, in every one of the local unions in the American Viscose Company in Reedville and Marcus Hooke in Lewistown and Front Royal and Parkersburg. And in all the locations there was either a president missing -- in one location a business agent was missing. In one other location, another officer was missing. But in every single, local union, within that one week, these people were gone. They were missing. We got recognition from the American Viscose Company, we 00:29:00worked out a collective-bargaining agreement affecting 15,000 workers. And do you know, until that company sold its operation to [FMC Corporation?], we never had a strike. It's a record that was dramatized by Herb Paine in the National Planning Assoc--