Flow Bowie Interview 1

GEORGE STONEY: Talk about what happened when people drank in the village, and also you told me about when your relatives came from Montgomery --

FLOW BOWIE: From New York.

STONEY: -- and you were worried about the party.

BOWIE: Oh, yeah. I'll tell you, it was -- if -- if -- ah, they just didn't have any drinking. If you had a little drink at work, you know -- I mean on weekends they'd have to sneak around, and my husband's -- my brothers came from New York. I had two that lived in New York -- well, one still does -- and, ah, they'd, you know, "Oh, I got to look at George." (laughs) And they'd --

STONEY: Let's start all over again.

BOWIE: All righty. They said when, ah, they would come to visit, and they'd bring their bottles, you know, and --

STONEY: No, start again. Start -- way, way back.

BOWIE: Way, way back.

STONEY: Way, way back about drinking in the village.

BOWIE: Well now, my husband's daddy, my daddy-in-law, he -- when they -- if anybody in the village had a drink and somebody reported it, they were gone the next day on Mondays. Somebody would tell them. And how they knew, I'll never know. And if you had any folks that came in or a get-together, if they was one drink there, some snooper-out'd find it and they'd report it. And I know my daddy-in-law had a -- he was 19 years old. And somebody reported -- he was just out with the boys and they didn't stay out late, maybe 9:00, you know. And, ah, he would, ah, ah -- they -- somebody reported that they'd drink -- was drinking and he had rheumatic fever and he had a bad heart anyway and he wouldn't have 00:02:00dared touch it and didn't know what -- I don't guess, even what it tasted like. But they reported that he was drinking and they fired the whole family, you know, the Bowie Family -- not my husband, but they fired them. And they moved them. They had to move off of the village and they moved into a little (clears throat) -- excuse me -- house down on Goin Road. And that boy died down there with rhematic fever and -- and just from that. And it was a hardship, I'm telling you, and I guess till their dying day, they -- my father-in-law didn't want no part of Monroe Wood and he was just a -- he was just -- I don't know how to put it. He was just head of the place and, strangely enough, I don't -- I never see him out of the house, but he knew everything that was going on. And if 00:03:00our brothers -- anybody came to visit us, and they'd always bring a drink, you know. And they were scared to death because they knew dang well somebody was going to tell them that -- that they'd had a drink. And I remember my, ah, brother and a friend of his came from New York and stayed a week -- week with us and everybody just went and had the best time. And when we went back -- when they went back -- I wore overalls to work because it was more convenient. Of course, they didn't look like Lonesome Liz, but we wore them, you know, and made them to fit. And so he said, "I'm sending you some overalls that's -- that's going to be real snazzy." And I said, "Okay." Well, and a week later we got those overalls. He sent me four pair. And they had big legs and they had flowers, you know, and just, ah, they were sharp. And, ah, my twin sister 00:04:00wouldn't wear them. Her husband didn't want her to wear them. And I said, "I'm going to wear them." So I put them on. My mama didn't care. She said, "Wear them if you want to." We put -- I put those things and I run down to my neighbor and I said -- I asked her, I said, "Are you game to wear these?" She said, "Yeah, if you are." I said, "I got mine on" and we went back from lunch. And I knew they were going to get us and we wasn't working 15 minutes till here come Mr. Wood, wobbling along, you know, fat and red-faced. And he walked up to me and he said, looked at them and they had pockets in the front and suspenders, you know. And he said, "Those are not pajamas. They're overalls!" I said, "What was you expecting?" I said, "What? Am I, got to go home?" He said, "No. Wear them and enjoy them." That's the truth, so help me. And, ah -- but if he'd have told me go home, I wouldn't have come back.

STONEY: Another time when he told you to go home, tell about it -- before your husband was married.

BOWIE: Yeah. Well, if you -- if you was (clears throat) -- had a boyfriend, you know, and -- and you spoke to them at work, And if they caught you, you was just out of there for the day, you know. They wouldn't send you out for (inaudible). And, ah, so he was going to Montgomery then. And this was before -- he had been to Montgomery before. He had an aunt down there and played ball before we were married. And, ah, so he came by just to say bye, you know. And Bob Brown, he saw us. He said, "All right. You know what that means?" I said, "Yeah, I know. 'Bye." And so I got to the door -- I got to the door and I said, "I'll see you next week." He said, "You get yourself back in here and go to work. You're too happy about the whole thing." I said, "I'm not coming back. You sent me home for the day and I'm gone." And I went home for the day and I thought the next morning, "Well, he'll send me out really because Jess is gone," you know. But he 00:06:00didn't. He said he just wasn't gonna -- "That's what you wanted." I said, "Yeah." But I was -- I -- I cannot say that I was ever mistreated, because I didn't -- I just took it day by day. I felt like I was full-grown and I would give -- I could stand up to the President if he came along. I was just that way. And I wasn't smart about it. I didn't think it was -- maybe not ladylike sometimes, but I'd tell them.

STONEY: Could you talk about what the union could have meant, do you think?

BOWIE: What the union could have meant? It could have been -- it could have worked wonders. You see what they're doing here at this? I don't know if they --

STONEY: Start about and say "The union could have worked."

BOWIE: By what?

STONEY: Start again and say "The union could have worked."

BOWIE: The union? It would just mean so much to the Southern people, which there's a lot of it now and I thank God for it. It didn't happen in my day, but 00:07:00it -- it was just a great thing for them. And the only people around here that was -- that really went into the union -- and that was years later -- but some of those fellas got in there and worked and organized that place out here and they making a real good living and -- and I got a real good friend that's just retired from 20 years out there and just making it real good. And that's what it would have meant to us in those days. And that's what my husband saw in it, that it'd just be better environments and make a better living. Now we wasn't hungry and we wasn't -- had good clothes as anybody else and things like that, but it certainly would have been a good thing for the South.

STONEY: Why didn't you think it worked?

BOWIE: People were just frightened, George. They were insecure, so insecure. Now they're not. I think if they started organizing now, that it'd go over. And -- but they were insecure and had never known anything only just working in textile, farming. They were born there and they were brought up there and their parents never knew anything else. Most of them moved in from a farm and started and it was just that farms failed or something and they just -- everybody in -- in the mills and everywhere else was born in Carroll County, just like we were. And they just came over and went to work in the mills and -- and, ah, and a lot of them did real good. But we moved around a lot and -- and the only -- I look back and see it would have just been so good for everybody, for everybody concerned, if they'd have organized a union in the South. And I don't know a lot 00:09:00of places that is till this day hardly. They still -- there's some of them still just afraid. And what they're afraid of, I don't know. You're going to live so long and if you -- if, ah -- if they fire you, find you another job where they are organized and join them. That's what they ought to do. I still believe that. And I think it was a great -- it'd have been a wonderful thing if it had happened in East Newnan and Sargent and Arnco and around these places. It would have been a great thing for them, for the people. And a lot of them done real well for themselves, their children did, you know. Like the Woods, and the McMichaels. But they wanted the union. They were just, wasn't brazen enough to come out and say it. They were sympathizers and their daddies just old, dyed in 00:10:00the wool -- Southerners, I guess -- no, it's just not Southerners. They were just insecure.

STONEY: Why do you think that we're finding a lot of people who are afraid to talk about it?

BOWIE: Well, I -- I guess it still lingers on with them from -- from that, you know. And it's so foolish for them to feel like that. But they still won't talk about it. They still whisper about it (laughs). And I think it's terrible not to be outspoken. And, ah, I don't know, George, why they wouldn't join. They wouldn't now. Some of them my age wouldn't do it right now. Such as -- I won't say the names, but they -- they just -- they would tell on you. Right now if I were to go and say I was joining the union, somebody'd -- they can't report it to nobody but Social Security people. (laughs) And to heck with -- I don't -- 00:11:00they didn't -- I wanted it real, real bad, but I didn't participate. I wasn't out there with them slinging sticks and things. Too rough on [old clothes?](laughs). I don't know. They're afraid of it till this day. Why? And some of them are still just that -- just that -- I don't know what's wrong with them, but they could organize now.

STONEY: Judy, I want you to sit where I am, and I want you to tell Judy (break in audio)

BOWIE: At the -- now where do I start? About --

STONEY: You, you're in Hogansville, no you're in East Newnan, aren't you? Where your husband got fired?

BOWIE: Yeah, and they --

JUDITH HELFAND: Start with a full sentence, because we've got to start from the top.

BOWIE: Okay. They, ah -- he got fired and they --

STONEY: No, you start talking about the -- husband -- when the union people came to town he got to know them and so forth.

HELFAND: Maybe you could start with why your husband, why your husband -- (break in audio)

BOWIE: He -- when they came in -- the union people came in, and I couldn't name you a one of them because I never met them, and -- but he -- you know, he -- they just came in and just how he got with them. Of course, there was -- I -- I can't remember how it really got started, how he -- but they came to him first, one of the first ones they came to, you know, the union people. And he just started working with them --

STONEY: We're going to have to start all over again because you say "him" when you should say "my husband."

HELFAND: "My husband" and then use his name, whatever you called him by.

BOWIE: Oh, oh. Well, (clears throat) my husband, I don't know how he got -- how he met the guys. I know they came in and they were going to organize a union. It was whispered around. And they got together some way and set up a meeting place. And my husband would go to those meetings. He went to all of them, you know. And 00:13:00so I'd always ask who was there. And he'd list off a few. And I knew who they were, and he did, too. So one particular night he came in and I said, "Well, who, did any new ones come in?" And he said, "Yeah" and he told me the guy's name -- my husband told me the guy's name. I said, "He -- you will be gone in two days." He said, "What makes you think that?" I said, "Well, you know him" and I said, "You watch it." And I had tears in my eyes because I knew they were going to just cut him down, you know. And he was so working at it and trying to tell the people. He would talk to the people in their homes. He'd go to their house, that he thought was their friends, you know -- his friend, and -- but this -- I know he did it just as good as if I'd have been right there when he told them. And they -- my husband was the very first one to get it and then they 00:14:00told us we had to move, and they would have thrown us right out of there if we hadn't have moved and our daughter was three years old. And we moved. Was this story all right? We moved to Hogansville. We moved down to his uncle's and, ah, just to get away. Wasn't going to sit there and be evicted. Now that would have been a terrible thing, if they'd have set us right out on the street, and they would have, I think. And, ah, so my husband went -- his uncle came up and he said, "You can just move down there." They had a place for us to move down there, a little house. And we moved down there. And he started -- they were running (laughs) liquor. Do you want me to say that? They started -- that's what he started a-doing. And we stayed there I don't know if it was hardly a year, and I said, "I'm just not going through this," you know, that he would -- but all of it started from just being -- trying to organize and to help the people. 00:15:00And that's what would make me do damn mad when I'd think about how they done, you know. And, ah, so we moved to Montgomery then and less than a year later, and he started playing ball and we lived there for six years. And then we finally moved back here, and the union and everything had just quieted down, you know. You didn't hear anything about it. And it was just -- they kindly -- they'd kind of pick on you, you know, say, "You didn't get very far with it" or something. And it was embarrassing in a lot of ways. But then they -- it's just -- just one of those things that they wouldn't have it and they was just getting rid of the people. But my husband was, Jess, was the very first one to go and anybody can tell you that that was around in them days. And I'm sorry -- I was 00:16:00sorry for them then, and I still am, that they didn't better themselves, you know, with the union and organize this textile and, ah, and get it to a decent wage. It's much better now than it was then, but it'd have been much, much better if they'd have organized a union years ago when that was trying to -- when they was trying to help them. I don't know where the union people came from. I don't know if they came from Atlanta. They -- I believe they were people from the North, you know. I don't know. I don't know. I never heard names or anything. I heard them, I guess, but I just can't remember any of them. And so that's about the story of our life, that we just came right up -- it caused us a lot of heartaches and hardsh-- hard times, you know.

STONEY: Could you ask her about Harry Barton?

BOWIE: Excuse me. Who?

HELFAND: Did you ever hear the names of -- did you ever hear of an organizer named Harry Barton?

BOWIE: Harry Barton. I know Harry and Frank, his brother.

HELFAND: Did they come down to organize here?

BOWIE: I think they were in -- they were in Hogansville. They came to the meetings. That's the reason all the Zimmermans and Harry Barton was -- married a Zimmerman. His wife was a Zimmerman. And, ah -- and he -- they were all in that. They were all in the union. I think they were picked up in Newnan, weren't -- weren't they, and took to Atlanta to the hoosegow, or whatever.

HELFAND: Did you hear about a man named Homer Welsh?

BOWIE: Homer who?

HELFAND: Homer Welsh.

BOWIE: Homer Wells -- no.

HELFAND: Well, how did Jess, that's your husband's name, right, Jess, was your husband -- what happened to Jess' self-esteem when he started to organize?

BOWIE: Oh, he was just all happy-go-lucky. You know, he was just -- oh, thought he had it -- he thought sure that they were -- had it going, you know. He was happy and just worked at it. He was brazen about it. Of course, he -- he wasn't real sneaky like a lot of them, or afraid, but I don't know why he wasn't. He just wanted to -- well, he just wanted the union. And it did-- he didn't seem to worry. He said, "Well, if I'm going, there's going to be a lot of the other fellas." I said, "You're not looking out for the other fella." He said, "Yeah, that's what I'm doing, trying to hep them, too." And but --

STONEY: What was it like being the wife of a ballplayer?

BOWIE: It was kind of hectic. I went to all the games and yelled like a -- and, ah, we -- he was a fairly good ballplayer. He sure was. I like baseball till 00:19:00this day. My husband was a good fella. His morals were high. He -- he just never -- he never got in any trouble and he'd take a little drink on the weekends, but sneaking. He'd have to sneak it. He didn't sneak from me, but he'd -- you didn't dare let anybody see you or hear you. (laughs) And all the fellas -- I guess -- I know they were. And my husband and his dad and two brothers would get together on Saturday night. You may not want to hear this. But they'd get together on Saturday night and penny poker and they'd have a drink and you could hear them laughing a country block, you know. And I'd say, "Lordy," I said, "we'll be going Monday!" But they did it. They didn't -- they didn't know they had something to drink. They'd just be playing penny poker. If their money gave out, 00:20:00they'd play with matches! Oh, it was -- I've had a -- I've had a good life, you know? Till this day, I'm just about as happy if I had good sense and -- but I wish the union -- I wish the South would organize a union this -- now. But they won't -- I don't know why. I don't know why they won't, that they can't see. They've lived long enough. The younger generation, looks like to me that they would now. The kids might, ah -- some of the kids that's grown up, the middle-aged men, you know. But there's not that many people working in the mills. I think it's mostly they pay them better wages now and I think a lot of them are black now and they work and -- and, ah, I don't know why -- it's a wonder they don't -- can't organize. They'd be easier to organ-- they'd be 00:21:00easier to talk into it now than they would when our group -- the white people in those days.

STONEY: Why do you think that?

BOWIE: Well, I just think they're, ah -- they -- they realize they're working and they making a pretty good salary and I think -- I think they would be easier to, ah, organize, because you can get some of them together and talk to them and they stick together. And they're not going to tell on each other and just keep things going, you know, like run and tell who and who and who's going and who came last night and all that. I believe they would be -- I believe it'd -- organizing the textile places now would be able to organize.

STONEY: Did you know any of the black people who worked in the mill?

BOWIE: Well, there wasn't many working in it when I was. They wasn't many. I think they was a few around that they did, ah, ah, yard work, like maintenance 00:22:00and something around the plant. But now working right with us, they didn't. They were out working for the people in the kitchen and I would have a black girl in my house when I was, ah, working to take care of my child and fix her her meals. And I had one. Paid her two dollars-and-a-half a week and they were happy with that. And you could take -- them days you could take five dollars and go out and buy groceries for a week almost, you know. That's the way it was then.

STONEY: Do you remember with the NRA came in and you got hours cut and wages went up?

BOWIE: Do I remember? Yes. We lived in Montgomery when they -- what year did they, ah, get the Social Security?

STONEY: Social Security started in '36.

BOWIE: Well, we were in Montgomery then, but we were -- we moved back and was at East Newnan when they started the 8-hour -- 40-hour week and raised your wages to 40 cents an hour, I believe.

STONEY: How did that feel?

BOWIE: Oh, it felt great that you'd go in and work for -- go to work at 6 in the morning and off at 2. It was great. It was like a bird out of a cage and people was just thrilled to death with it. I can remember that real well. And you'd have time to go home and -- and be more with your family and we always managed that my husband would work on one shift like the, and I'd work on the other one so one of us'd be there most of the time, you know, with our daughter.

STONEY: How did the mothers nurse their babies when they were working in the mill?

BOWIE: Well now, that, I guess they had them on a bottle. I did. I didn't -- uh hum. I don't know. You know, I believe years ago some of them would go home in the mornings at 10:00 and feed their babies and come back. Yeah, I remember that. I didn't do that. And, ah, they'd go home in the afternoon when they'd working 12 hours a day. And they'd give us an hour for lunch, you know, and then you'd come back. But, boy, when the eight hours came in, we just thought we was -- it was great. And I don't know. I can't remember, but I remember now about those women. They'd go out and feed their babies. When they'd had several children, you know, they'd work and they'd go home. They'd let them go home and feed their babies and come back. I can remember a few that did that. I didn't go 00:25:00to work till mine was old enough to be fed. I stayed home with her for about 18 months.

STONEY: Could you talk about your own education?

BOWIE: Well, I tell you, I didn't -- I went to the seventh grade in school and I did that in Hogansville. And then we, ah -- in Eatonton, I went -- we moved to Eatonton, Georgia, and I finished the seventh grade and that's as far in school as I ever got. (laughs) But I read a lot and -- and watched other people. You can be -- you can learn a lot just watching and listening. You wouldn't think I'd ever listened, but I did. (laughs) And, ah -- but very few textile workers that their children ever graduated from high school. Now that's the truth. 00:26:00They'd go to work when they got old enough. They went to work at 14 and then they passed the child -- believe, I can't remember the year the child's -- now that was in my young days that they passed the Child Labor Law. And, ah, they, ah -- you couldn't work. I -- you had to be fourt-- you had to be sixteen, I believe. And I have worked when they had the Child Labor Law. You didn't work all day. They'd work so many hours and go home, or something to that effect. How did they do that? But it was a -- we've seen some real -- I don't know -- there was scary times. You know, you'd have a lot of worry about what was going to become of you or where would -- where the next meal was coming from. We never 00:27:00was hungry, but you'd have -- you'd worry about it. At that time when the strike and everything was going on, if it hadn't -- you know, and everybody was during the Depression. It was tough and if there'd have been a union, that would have never happened. I mean the textile, I don't believe would have.

STONEY: What about Roosevelt? Talk about Roosevelt.

BOWIE: Oh, I like Roosevelt. I think he saved the people -- a lot of people don't like him. I've heard a lot of people say he was a communist, but I liked him. I think he saved -- when he started the -- now at one time when that was started, my husband, Jess, was not working. And he went to work on the WPA. You remember that? I know you don't, but they did and he worked some there. And, ah -- but it was a livelihood. I wasn't working at that time. And, ah, so I just 00:28:00can't remember. I can remember a lot of things that --

STONEY: Do you remember when you first heard Roosevelt on the radio?

BOWIE: Lord, yeah. But I can't remember the speech, but I remember he was such a strong -- I just --

STONEY: Start about the -- well about Roosevelt.

BOWIE: Me start about Roosevelt? Well now, I don't know how to start about Roosevelt. I just think he was godsend, you know, to the working people. I really do. And I think he was -- I just think he was one great President. And I think it was a great loss to the -- when he went away, you know. I'd seen him. You know, he'd come, go down to Warm Springs. But Roosevelt, to me, was just a lifesaver for the working people. He started the eight hours and raised the 00:29:00wages. I believe it was 40 cents an hour. I can't remember. It was very little. I can't remember what they paid an hour. I don't believe they paid you by the hour. They paid you by the day, so much a week, you know. And you look back and see, and my husband would always say about this -- he'd say, "They're paying you by the day. And some people -- you work hard. You do your job good and do more than the other person, but they getting the same amount of money you are. And that's not right." He said, "And if you organize a union, that's not going to be," you know. He just thought for the working people, if they could just get organized. But I think after Roosevelt started the eight hour, that just -- I don't know whether it stopped people from thinking about being organized -- getting organized in labor or I don't know what started -- I don't know what 00:30:00they thought, you know. But they just --

STONEY: Did you ever hear your husband say that Roosevelt said you should join a union?

BOWIE: Yes, I'm sure -- yeah, I've heard him say that, you know. I know he did say that people ought to join the union. They ought to -- you know, the working people ought to be in a union.

STONEY: Now uh, (inaudible)