Flow Bowie Interview 2

 GEORGE STONEY: Okay, yes. Okay.

FLOW BOWIE: I said the good Lord has been real good to be, just so many blessings. And I don't take anything, do have a beer every day and I think that's --

CREW: We really need her to start again.

STONEY: I'm sorry (inaudible). Rolling? Okay. Yeah.

BOWIE: I said the good Lord had been real good to me and I'm just a happy person. And He -- He always provides. I can always get a six--(laughs) six-pack and it'll do me for a whole week. So I'm just happy with that! (laughs) And I've enjoyed talking with you folks. I don't think I've contributed very much, but I'll remember y'all always and I want you to always remember me as just -- I'm just, ah – I am what I am. (laughs)

STONEY: Could you talk a little bit about women's lib and voting way back then?

BOWIE: Oh, you had to pay a dollar poll tax or a dollar-and-- the sheriff ran for gov-- sheriff here, and I had just -- we hadn't been married too long. And, ah, we started to vote and we did-- I didn't have the dollar-n-- we didn't have the dollar-and-a-half to pay for (laughs) -- for the poll tax. So the sheriff, ah -- some-- somebody paid our poll tax. A lot of us women didn't have it and they paid our poll tax when I started voting and I hadn't missed a year since. I'm going to vote for -- for my way and my husband and I, he was Republican and I was Democrat! (laughs) But he wasn't a Republican -- you don't want to hear this. He wasn't Republican till Goldwater run and that was the year he died. And I remember our daughter came home -- she lived in Florida -- and went in the hospital to see him. And she said, "I know Goldwater lost the election, but why 00:02:00let it put you in the bed," you know, "put you in the hospital?"

JUDITH HELFAND: I have a question. Could you -- I'm just wondering, thinking about when you had to leave the village --

BOWIE: When what?

HELFAND: When you and your husband had to leave the village after the strike -- not after the strike, before the strike.

BOWIE: Yeah. Uh hum. But he was back in there. He would come back and still work with them.

HELFAND: Okay. Well that'll be my second question, but. Could you describe to us how you actually left the village? I mean what you were feeling and the people watched when you left? Could you describe how you left and what that was like?

BOWIE: Well, oh, it was terrible to leave. And we knew they were people -- yeah, they would see us. You know, they -- we just got a truck. A friend of ours came and moved us, you know, and everybody was looking and -- and knew why we were going. But they knew I could've worked if I'd have wanted to, you know. 00:03:00And that wasn't much sympathy. You know, they thought, "Well," but it was -- it was terrible. And I was -- Jo Ann, our little daughter, she wasn't -- she was three and she didn't have -- had never gone to school or anything and she didn't have any -- had her friends, you know. And she'd want to know why, you know, "Where we going?" You know. And we told -- her dad told her, said, "We got -- just going to move down to Hogansville, down to" -- and live next to his uncle and aunt. And, ah, so, yeah, it was terrible. But I didn't -- they didn't faze me any. I hadn't done anything and he hadn't either. I was with him. If he'd have got out with a shotgun and started with them, you know -- but it was rough. But it all boils down to I think they're the losers because it didn't make me 00:04:00too unhappy to have to leave and I knew he was doing what he thought was right and trying to help them and they were so afraid -- they were just afraid that they'd -- they didn't have anywhere to go and some of them had big families. And where could they have gone? We had that one child and I felt like I could take care of her. And if they -- whatever happened. And I knew he would take care of both of us, but some of those people -- my daddy and mother-in-law -- my mother and daddy-in-law had -- they had about four children that was home, you know, when all this was going on. And some people -- the younger couples maybe, they had six or eight children. They couldn't -- they were just scared. They were so insecure and it -- it would have caused them -- why, no telling what 00:05:00would happen to them. They just didn't have a ch-- they didn't have much of a choice. But the ones that did fight so hard for it and get carried away -- but we moved. They fired my husband and we -- we knew we had to go or they'd set us out. They never did say they'd come down and evict us, but they would've, I guess.

HELFAND: You had friends in the spinning room that you worked with for years, right?

BOWIE: Uh hum. Thirty-something years.

HELFAND: Prior, before you --

BOWIE: All my life. My --

HELFAND: Okay, can you talk about your relationships with your friends and then your leaving and any explanations they wanted to you or you gave to them?

BOWIE: Uh hum. Well now, I worked all that time and when we'd move, you know, I really -- and I told you this before -- I don't -- they treated me good. I was -- I did a good job and they never mistreated me and I never had them to 00:06:00walk up and point their finger in my face. I have seen them do it talking to the women and they would be crying, you know, just hurt them so bad. Oh, they wasn't doing a job, they wasn't trying and everything. And me, I was working, but I wasn't -- they were -- they were just as good to me as they could be. I mean the help around, they just couldn't do the job, but somehow or another I could do mine with no -- (laughs) just -- I could just do it. I could spin, you know, and I -- I didn't -- and when we'd leave friends, we'd be moving, "Wish I could go," you know. "I believe we could do better somewhere else." I said, "No. You just stick to your job," you know. "Well, I'm just going because he is." My husband would move, you know, and he didn't think too much about it. 00:07:00But finally he moved -- when we moved back the third time to Newnan, East Newnan, I said, "Next time you get a wild hair to quit your job and move, we will be sitting here when you get back because I am not moving anymore. Now Jo Ann's in school and I'm not going to move. She's going to finish high school here and have some roots somewhere." Of course, his family was here and this was his home all those years, and he'd always come back home. And I'd go. Now I wasn't, I didn't feel abused. I saw a lot of people, met a lot of people, made a lot of friends. But we always came back to East Newnan after all them people. And they welcomed you back as if nothing had ever happened. He -- they -- his friends didn't turn against him. The= people didn't. They was just scared to do it. They were sociable with us. They didn't give us the horse laugh when we had to move. They were sorry for us, but they wasn't standing out 00:08:00pointing a finger -- naw, they wasn't doing that. Some of them were, you know, like some of them. But, no, not our old friends.

STONEY: That's beautiful. Beautiful stuff. That's lovely.

BOWIE: And uh --

STONEY: (inaudible)

BOWIE: And we never -- I never was ashamed to go back and I never had a job in my life that -- that I was fired on, you know, say, "Oh, you gotta go." (laughs) My husband had quit and -- and they had the strangest rules. Like if your husband quits out, you're going, too, you know. But he didn't. They -- they would let me work. They'd give me ample opportunity. They did it on those three occasions at East Newnan for me to stay on and work, if I wanted. I said, "No. If he's going, I'm going where he's going."

HELFAND: At the time of the strike, how did your foreman talk to you? I mean 00:09:00you must -- did you go to your foreman and say, "I'm leaving"? Or did he know already? Describe that to us.

BOWIE: I'd let them come to me. I'd work on, you know, let him -- as I said, he went to Hogansville and went to work. (clears throat) And I worked six weeks and, supposingly, if your husband quit, you were gone the next day. But they didn't me. They let me work. They thought that he -- and then they went down to Hogansville after him -- his boss went down and apologized and wanted him to come back to Hog-- back to East Newnan and go to work. And he refused to do it. He said, "No, I'm not going to do it." He knew the circumstances'd be the same and that's when they let me -- they just told me that, since he wouldn't come back, that they'd just have to let me go.

STONEY: Now back to your uncle -- (break in audio)

HELFAND: (inaudible) -- husband's organized. Do you mean you say you didn't leave with him? You stayed for another six weeks?

BOWIE: No. No. I left. We left together.

HELFAND: Okay, that was my question. My question was, you had to leave together, but you had been working up to that point?

BOWIE: Uh hum.

HELFAND: So I want to know, because you were such a good worker, what did your boss say to you?

BOWIE: He -- he -- he tried to --

HELFAND: Speak -- start (inaudible)

BOWIE: Well, he tried to talk to my husband.

HELFAND: Can you say "my boss"?

BOWIE: My boss tried to talk to my husband and told him, said, "Just -- if you will just" -- he didn't want him to start. He knew he was fooling around with the union. And he talked to him even before it happened, not to do it. He said, "You know what it's going to do to you." And said, "You know that they'll fire you the first thing." And Jess told him he was just going to do it. He was going on and he didn't care what they were going to do. He was going to try to help organize the union there and he kept going to the meetings. And the boss talked to me and he said, "If he just -- if you can just talk him out of it, you know, just tell him to stay home and not go to the meetings." I said, 00:11:00"I'm just not going do it. That's what he wants to do and if he thinks he's bettering us and you folks, too, whatever he does, I'm with him." And then they fired Jess and they never did -- I never did see them. I didn't even go back. (clears throat) When they fired him, I knew there wasn't no use in me going in. And we moved. But that's about it. They -- they was just --

STONEY: Could you tell what happened when you went down to your uncle's?

BOWIE: Oh, to his uncle's? (clears throat) My husband and I moved, went down to the uncle's and moved into that little farmhouse, you know. And, as I told you before, we moved there for -- we lived there for six or eight months, not a whole year. And then he had an aunt that lived in Montgomery and they was after us -- called us for him to come down and go to work -- or to go play ball and I 00:12:00could go to work. So we did that. But in the meantime, they were running -- he was bootlegger and he did it in a big way. Had about three cars going, you know. Now he didn't make it himself, but he must have -- I think he picked it up around Atlanta. I don't know where he got the liquor. But my husband did run liquor for him. He hauled it for him and delivered it to places. And that's the way we lived for a while, but I knew that wasn't for me. It was dangerous for him. He could have gotten killed. He could have gotten arrested and been put under the jail, you know. And I said, "Naw, that's not for us. You can do it, but I'll make other arrangements." So he said, "Well, we'll move to Montgomery" and we did. And he played ball there for six years we lived there.

STONEY: Okay. (break in audio).

BOWIE: So excited --

HELFAND: Start, say "the first night he came home from a meeting" --

STONEY: The first time -- your husband

BOWIE: Yeah. The first time my husband came home from the meeting, he was so excited and he told me who all was there. And they were a lot of responsible people, I mean people that -- that was our friends and everything, you know. And they just -- he just was so excited about it and "If we can get this over, things is going to be so different," you know, "if we can just organize this union." Yeah, he was so excited and -- and the friends he called off. I thought, "Well, that's all right. We'll wait." You know. Whatever he wanted to do. I felt like he was -- knowed what he was doing, and he did, but he knew, too, that if they knew, his name would be on the top of the list and why they did that to him, I'll never know because he was just such a -- he was a good man, a moral person. (coughs) Just kind of -- he was just -- he wanted to 00:14:00help everybody else just as much as us, you know, to make a better living, better environment. (coughs) And when he came home -- they met about twice a week or maybe more often. And so -- and I'd always ask him who was there and he'd always tell me, you know. And he told me this particular man and I said, "Oh, God, you know you going." He said, "Ah, maybe not." Said, "He was just so enthused" and he was so sure this guy was -- he said, "Oh, he wants to get in much as us," you know. I said, "You watch him." I said, "You know he's going to do that. He's going to report every name. I bet he's got it written down. And it wasn't a week later till he -- we were gone. That is before it all came to such a uproar. Now my husband was at the – when they had the -- locked the 00:15:00gate and all that, (coughs) excuse me, he was in that group.

HELFAND: Can you start that sentence again?

BOWIE: He was in that -- my husband was in that group, but I don't know why he kept from getting arrested.

STONEY: We're going to start again. "My husband was there when they locked the gates."

HELFAND: And which -- at what point was this happening?

BOWIE: At the East Newnan -- down at East Newnan Mill.

HELFAND: And this is the beginning of the strike?

BOWIE: Yeah, this was the beginning of the strike. My husband was there in the group.

HELFAND: Let's start one more time, because I cut you off, I'm sorry.

BOWIE: Well, we were -- we were there when they locked it. My husband was in this group when they locked the gate. They put chains and locks on there and he helped do all that. And he was already gone. He was already not working and -- and, ah, I didn't know what was going to happen to him. I thought, "Well, what in the world's going to happen?" He could get killed or anything. I didn't know, and they just -- and -- but he helped do that and then he came home that 00:16:00night after it was all -- but they were still over there all night long. But he didn't stay all night. He came home and evidently that's why he didn't get arrested, that he wasn't with them when they came and got them. They called out the National Guard and all that and it was frightening times for a lot of people. I was home. I didn't -- I didn't see any of it. I saw it in the papers, but he'd always tell me what was going on. And -- but it was -- why they didn't arrest him, I'll never know, because he -- he could have been right in that group on that truck like a bunch of cattle. They just treated them awful. And as much as I wanted it, I didn't -- I wouldn't have wanted to have been in that. I couldn't handle that, I don't think, the going and me with a 00:17:00fam-- my child. My child meant a lot to me and I didn't put myself in no position to get into that group. I wanted it as bad as anybody and I spoke up for it. And I knew wasn't no use of me going back to work after they'd let him go, because I knew I'd be gone, too.

HELFAND: Where did you speak up for it? Describe a situation.

BOWIE: Well, the other people, around, just with our friends and the people we worked with and around. Everybody was just so confusing. People were just going to and fro and they hardly knew. It was -- it was a sad situation.

STONEY: Had you heard about unions before this time?

BOWIE: Yes, I'd -- I have. I'd always heard about unions and I knew that they were organized in the -- in the cities and up in the Northern cities. I knew the Fords and all the motor companies and the textile and everything else was 00:18:00organized in the cities up North, but it didn't cross that Mason-Dixon Line. And it's ridiculous -- still is. It still is. I wished -- I wish they could, for the people's sake, black or white, that's working in these low-paying jobs and textile work. I -- I -- I'm sorry that they don't just see what's coming on and going on and just organize and -- and have some say-so.

HELFAND: You said that you were reading the newspapers about the strike?

BOWIE: Yeah.

HELFAND: Okay. Do you -- could you talk about reading these articles in the newspapers and I know it's a long stretch, but if you could remember the way the coverage was and the way they wrote about it.

BOWIE: Well, they were front page. It was on the front page and the people on 00:19:00the trucks and things were -- it showed them and then showed them when they put them -- they put them in a -- outside in a prison or something, just a wired-in place or something. And it showed all those pictures and that even frightened people more. They just like -- they just wouldn't take a chance. It made you feel insecure the way it was going, how they did. But now I -- I didn't -- I didn't participate in that. I wasn't at the gates or anything like that. I didn't -- now my husband didn't want me to do that. I wouldn't have if he'd have wanted me to. He just thought that that was out of place for me, but that was his feeling. I reckon he'd think I'd go over there and really start something! (laughs) But I wouldn't have. That was too much for me! But I was -- I really wish they could do it till this day.

HELFAND: Now did you know any women that did go down there and did get involved?

BOWIE: Oh, yes, I knew them.

HELFAND: Talk about some of those women. You don't have to name names, but.

BOWIE: Well, some of the women, they were just like -- housewives just like me, with families, and, ah, they -- it wasn't a group of people that didn't care. They were just, they were interested and they thought they could help themselves, and their husbands was involved. And, ah, now the Zimmermans in Hogansville, they wasn't any finer people than they were. And, ah, they were -- all of the people that were in that group were fine folks just like us, worked all their lives and just trying to better themselves. And that's about all I can say for them. They were friends of ours, and still friends till this day. Some of I know yet. Some of them are still living. Some of them are gone. The guy that was, that -- what do they call them people that tells everything, runs 00:21:00and tells?

HELFAND: Informers?

BOWIE: Huh?

HELFAND: Informers? Snitches?

BOWIE: Yeah, but they didn't say "informers".

STONEY: Snitches?

BOWIE: Huh? They had some kind of screwy name I can't remember.

STONEY: Stool pigeons?

BOWIE: That's more like it, stool pigeon.

STONEY: Start at the beginning and talk about the stool pigeons then.

BOWIE: Well, the stool pigeons, I still -- I didn't like them then and I don't like them till this day, and I never will like a stool pigeon. I don't care in what business you're in or what are you trying to do. I hate people that tell on each other. And when you working like we worked in textile, I hate people that ran to the boss and told him everything. It's just the worst -- to my honest opinion, it's the worst thing you can do. One of the worst things you can do is a stool pigeon. And they're in every business and I mean in every 00:22:00working people in textile. And they are in all places. There's always a -- there's always one in every -- and they are till this day. And I don't know anything I dislike any worse.

HELFAND: You somehow thought of stool --

STONEY: (inaudible)

HELFAND: You thought of stool pigeon and you thought of the Zimmerman sisters and you're thinking of people getting picked up, I think. Because we got into stool pigeons, we didn't make a connection. So I'm trying to bring you back. Somehow you thought of the Zimmerman sisters, and then you thought of the stool pigeons --

BOWIE: Oh, they were just working people, the Zimmermans, the people -- and I can't remember a lot of the names. You got a lot of the names, all of them, I guess, the women and a lot of them. But they are -- they were fine people, just hard-working people. And they wasn't somebody over there with, ah, no brassy 00:23:00women or anything like that. It was just a plain run-of-the-mill women that was working there to make a living.

STONEY: What gave them the courage to do this?

BOWIE: Just a few. I don't know. I don't know what gave them -- they were more -- I don't know what gave them the courage to go in there and stand up and be hauled off like that. I didn't have it, as independent as I am. I didn't -- I -- I would've if I'd have thought it'd have helped. But you could see what was going on and you knew what was going on and I didn't feel like going over there and joining. They had sticks. They had -- I think some of them had shotguns in their pants legs and all like that. It was rough for a while there. And I did not go into that. I -- I was -- I knew my husband wanted it, wanted a union organized, but I didn't think it ought to be done like that.

HELFAND: Have you and Etta Mae ever talked about her Participation in the strike?

BOWIE: Who?

HELFAND: You and Etta Mae Zimmerman.

BOWIE: Yeah, we've talked about it a lot.

HELFAND: Tell me about that.

BOWIE: Well, do you know, this has been years ago since I saw Etta Mae. I see her at the reunions like y'all attended. Were they there Sunday? It was fun to them. And they -- you know, it's a laughing. It's kind of a laughing matter when I was talking to her. And Annie Mae and Harry and all of them. But I can't remember just the conversation.

HELFAND: Well, I'll tell you. Have you ever told Etta Mae that you respected her for what she did?

BOWIE: I sure did. I -- I --

HELFAND: Tell Etta Mae now, but pretend I'm Etta Mae.

BOWIE: Well, Etta Mae knows that she was my friend and Annie Mae and her other -- what's the other girl's name?

HELFAND: Leona.

BOWIE: See-ona?

HELFAND: Leona.

BOWIE: Leona.

HELFAND: Okay, start again.

BOWIE: I said, yeah, Etta Mae and Leona and Annie Mae, I -- they were great. They were just -- I just love them and I admire them for doing what they did even if they were cut down and never got what they were working for. I admire them. I admire them till this day. And they might not -- well, they knew -- well, see, they were in Hogansville and they came here and -- and, ah, that's the reason I didn't -- see, I didn't even know they were there. But I wouldn't have gone. That just wasn't my type of cup of tea, is to get into that group. I was -- I knew my husband was working at it and I was happy that he was and I was with him a hundred percent, but I just wasn't -- I just wasn't going to get into something that would be hard off like that. And you might think, well, I 00:26:00wasn't very interested, but I was, but I didn't need that. And I don't -- I think it was so wrong for them to be treated like dirt.

HELFAND: Now -- oh, you were going to say something. You know, I've read a number of letters from people that wrote in protesting the use of the National Guard, people that were just up in arms at the way that the folks were treated and even evictions like yours. And I wonder if you might want to talk about if you ever saw any people in the community get so upset at the treatment that they saw of the union people or yourself. Did they ever do anything about it even though --

BOWIE: No, there was never nothing done about it.

HELFAND: Start from the top.

BOWIE: Well, I don't think there was anything ever done. They never showed no sign of -- they didn't go from house to house talking about it. And the National Guard was doing their job. They were called to do what they done, and 00:27:00they hated the National Guards, but I said, "They doing their job. They were sent there." And they didn't rough up anybody, but now people didn't run and hide in their house and close the doors and all that jazz. But they – they talked about it among themselves. They didn't talk to us about it because they knew how we stood, how we felt about it. And as far as the Zimmermans, I -- I just think a lot of them. But they were different. They were coming from down there. I didn't even know they were there. I didn't know the Zimmermans was there till I saw it in the paper. And I didn't know -- they didn't have the same organize-- they might have had the same group trying to organize, but they were doing it a different night. They did it at night, I believe a couple of 00:28:00nights a week in East Newnan. And I -- I don't think they met in the village in East Newnan. They went out someplace. And then in Hogansville, maybe he'd be down there the next two nights, you know, two nights a week. And I didn't know all that was going on about the women, but I knew they were in there, but I didn't know who. And I never -- my husband never asked me to go. I just -- I wouldn't have gone. As much as I'd like to have seen them organized, I just wasn't going to participate like that. I didn't think that was what they needed, but that was their only way they had to do it. They just had to come out and -- and, ah -- I look back now and say that was -- they just thought they'd be -- they were so outnumbered, you know. So I just don't -- I don't know. I -- I'm -- I wish it could be organized.

HELFAND: I have one more question.

STONEY: Two minutes left.

HELFAND: You're at two minutes? Okay. Do you have a message for young textile workers who are struggling to unionize now? And address them.

BOWIE: Uh hum. Yes. If I was a young textile worker -- I worked 35 years in textile -- and if I was a young one now, starting out, say, from 18 on, you know, I would organize a union. I would get it and I would just brazenly go in and and -- I'd call the organizer and tell them, "Let's get this thing on the road and organize a union to make a better place to work." Now there's better environments now than there were when I was coming on, and they're making a lot more money than I was then, than we were then, but I still think organized labor in textile would be just a great thing for them to do. And I would admire any of them that would just say, "Well, we want to" -- call in and say, "We want to 00:30:00organize a union. We want to get it on the road." I would right now if I was younger. And, ah, they just got better benefits. It'd be better for them when they get older and when they retire, they got -- they just have better benefits. They will, ah -- let's see, they will -- and -- and people that worked in a cotton mill for 35 years and doesn't get a retirement from them, that's terrible. And I did. And none of them draw -- none of them gets a retirement. (coughs) Excuse me. And they can -- they can just set themselves up and make that a career, because it's not all that bad to work in one, but just get it --