Eula McGill Interview 2

EULA MCGILL: Bring that up, that ain't the way it was.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, well we want you to sit tall up.

JUDITH HELFAND: And keep that energy up Eula, it's great.

GEORGE STONEY: Ok. Tell us about when the group came from somewhere else to invade your hull.

MCGILL: Well we were having a meeting. It was an organizational meeting. This was before the strike, the group, our local firm, the Selma Manufacturing Company. And, uh, we were going to have like a little social affair. We brought food and we had, uh, a man there with some -- one of the members had knew this guy had these little trained dogs and he was going to put on a show for us. And everything went fine until we started our meeting part talking about organizing. And Jim Robertson of our local -- he was a loom fixer in the 00:01:00weave shop and he was up talking. He was one of our oral and organized committee and he was up talking. And they started heckling him. And a group from the Avondale mill had come over there and I imagine we had invited some workers from the Avondale mill there to the meeting. I assume that is why they came because we was trying to have an organization meeting and there was times when we try to get the Avondale workers to come over and meet with us because we was a militant group because we didn't have nothing to lose. And, uh, they got so bad that some of our people jumped up and jumped on them. We all got in a fight. I think everybody in there was fighting. Who wasn't fighting was trying to get out of the way. We fought in the wall and down the -- it was upstairs over a drugstore in the Masonic hall and was trying to get away and we fought them plum down the steps, out on the street, and the streetcar turns the corner going there up to [Terrence City?] comes up Twelfth Avenue there in East 00:02:00Birmingham and turns the corner by the Masonic Temple. And we was on the street fighting. The street car couldn't get by. He was standing there ringing his -- ringing his bell. He couldn't go. We was all fighting down there in the street. And I was wondering why were the cops -- no cops ever come and nobody got arrested. However later somebody took a warrant out for Jim Robertson and we had a case in court. Somebody took a warrant for him. I don't know who brought the charge against him for jumping on him.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. Uh, uh, tell about the -- a woman who said to Donald [Comer?], pay what you can. Tell that story.

MCGILL: Uh, during the, uh, uh, campaign and, uh, when the bill was up before 00:03:00Congress for the wage and hour law, NRA --

GEORGE STONEY: Just start again. During the discussion and the --

MCGILL: Roosevelt was elected and the bills came up which for the NRA which covered wages, hours, and the right to organize, setting the standard of 25 cents an hour and 40 hours a week. All of the manufacturers of course said they'd have to close, they couldn't pay it. And a lot of people believed it. But the woman who worked -- one of the women who was part of the union over at Avondale mill told me that one of the workers that worked in the shop with her told, Mr. Comer -- back then they'd visit the mills. In fact the Comers had a paternal attitude. They had a camp down the coast that they'd let the workers go down there and spend, uh, let them go -- could go out once, but they 00:04:00-- they pretended, you know, that they was -- cared for the people and had a paternal aspect. She told me that he came within the bill and she said he heard this woman say, "Mr. Comer, uh, if you can't afford to pay me 25 cents an hour, you pay me whatever you can and keep the rest." And she was astonished that the woman really believed it. She thought she was sincere.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, now we want to do that again and just cut out all that business about the camp and so forth. We need it very tight.

MCGILL: Oh, you don't want that byproduct stuff.

GEORGE STONEY: That's right.

M1: And don't flip that paper there. I'm sorry, it's making noise.

MCGILL: Yeah, well I tell you, uh --

JAMIE STONEY: Just a bit -- a little bit more your way.

MCGILL: Those people, the Comers, really had the people believing that they, you 00:05:00know -- well when the NRA right after Roosevelt was elected and started his program, uh, when the bill was up for NRA, 40 hour a week, 25 cents an hour, all of the manufacturers far and wide everywhere, uh, spoke against it and said they couldn't afford to pay it, they'd have to go out of business. A lot of people was convinced. And this woman that I knew that worked in the Avondale mills here in Birmingham told me that one of the women that worked in the department there with her when Mr. Comer come through the plant one day and she told him that if he couldn't afford to pay her 25 cents an hour that -- pay her whatever he could afford and keep the rest. I'd like to say -- can I tell about --

GEORGE STONEY: Sure, yeah go ahead.

MCGILL: I went down to the mill village one day in Avondale mills. Of course I was pretty well known as a volunteer organizer. And Ruth [Sitem?] had a sister and brother-in-law that worked in the Avondale mills there because they were union -- favorable to the union. Uh, they had a guard to go in the mill village you had to stop at the guard gate and tell him who you was visiting. And, uh, we were going -- she wanted to go down and see her brother and sister and law. We weren't down there about the union or anything else, she just wanted to go down there to see her sister and brother-in-law. And we hadn't been in the house very long until someone knocked on the door and when her brother-in-law came back he was just white as a sheet and said he was the mill guard and came down to tell him to get me out of their house. And he said, "Now you don't 00:07:00have to leave." He said, "I told him it's my house and blah, blah, blah." I don't know what he told the man, but he seemed so -- and I said, "No, we'll leave because we don't want to jeopardize you." "No," he said, "You don't have to leave. I pay the rent on this house." And I said, "No." I had no idea they knew who I was, but evidently -- I found out later they had a pretty good resume on everybody that was active in the union.

GEORGE STONEY: Now that's such a good story. We want you to tell it again with a lot more energy. You're kind of feeling after lunch right now. I know you do, but make it very clear that there were guards -- not the mill, you want to say the mill village you see, much more clearly then. OK, now try it again.

MCGILL: Well one day, uh, Ruth Sitem who was a good friend of mine, we went down to, uh -- we went down to visit her sister and brother-in-law who lived in the 00:08:00mill village at Avondale mills there in Birmingham. And I know a lot of -- there's been a lot of wild tales told about how company villages, both mines and other villages. But I can believe it because I know firsthand some things have happened to me. And this is one of them. Uh, we were in -- went down there -- we weren't down there about the union. She wanted to go down there to see her sister and brother-in-law. And we had to stop at the guard shack and tell where we were going. You had to stop to tell who you was visiting. And we went in the guard shack to tell. We didn't tell who we were but Ruth said she was going to visit her sister and brother-in-law and told them the name. And we went down and we were sitting in the kitchen talking around the table. And someone knocked at the door. And we hadn't been in there very long. And -- 00:09:00and her brother-in-law came back -- he went to the door, he came back, and he was white as a sheet and said, "Uh, it was the guard from the mill." And it -- he said that the -- he told him to get us out of his house. And he said, "Now this is my house. I told him this is my house that I'm paying rent and I have in it who I want." And I said, "No we'll leave because I don't want to jeopardize you in no way." And he said, "No, it's my house." He insisted you know, but I really knew that he -- it was all false courage because he was shamed I think to admit that he was afraid. And but we left because -- and that was my last time ever in that mill village after that.

GEORGE STONEY: Good, thank you. [Monroe Abcott?].

MCGILL: You want me to tell them about telling there and never did speak about -- actually I didn't tell everybody about getting shot. We like to joke, but I guess I was still in that manner.

GEORGE STONEY: First tell -- no tell about what happened to him.

MCGILL: Well it was dangerous to go around Decatur then because of the background since back in the --

GEORGE STONEY: OK, sorry. It's dangerous to go around if you're organizing a union.

MCGILL: Yeah, if you was talking anything about the union.

GEORGE STONEY: Start over again. Sorry, start again.

MCGILL: If you were, uh –

(crosstalk)

HELFAND : Eula, we just need full sentences, that's why --

MCGILL: Yes I understand. It was dangerous to go around Decatur, Alabama if you were known to be a union organizer or sympathizer and was going in there to talk about the union. Well, uh, during the days -- and the early days of trying to organize the textile workers as a union, is organize is pretty well left up to the rank and file. And we would get groups to go into different areas where we 00:11:00was trying to get other mills to organize. So the group of Huntsville was working the Decatur Goodyear Fabric, made fabric for automobile tires. And they pinpointed that there which always has been known as an anti-union area. And, uh, they'd have their Tennessee river runs through there and they'd have their meetings down on the riverbank. And they were down there one day having a meeting and the group down there and bust them up. And they shot -- was fitting to fight and then of course -- we didn't run, we fought back. Some places we win, some places we lose. But we fought back, we didn't run. But in the fight Homer got shot in the leg.

GEORGE STONEY: Sorry I've got to start all over because you said Homer and it wasn't Homer. I was --

MCGILL: Monroe.

GEORGE STONEY: Monroe.

MCGILL: I was thinking about Homer Welch. Aw hell.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, so let's start over again.

MCGILL: Ah hell.

GEORGE STONEY: But your energy is great and you got it all right.

MCGILL: Well, well so I think --

GEORGE STONEY: I knew Homer Welch, I know.

MCGILL: Homer was --

GEORGE STONEY: Sure, I know. Yeah.

MCGILL: I don't know why I said Homer instead of Monroe. Uh, Decatur was a very anti-union place and it was known if you went into Decatur that you was going to run into trouble if you was in there talking union or trying to organize sympathy. But during the time we was trying to organize the textile workers, it was pretty much left up to the rank and file people to organize themselves. And we would go -- one group of us, we'd feel like we was going pretty strong -- we'd pick out another mill and the group would go and try to organize there. So the group in Huntsville picked out Decatur. And they'd 00:13:00have meetings down on the riverbank. Of course now, you had a pretty good amount of good support in Decatur. And years later on when I went in there, there was some support. It wasn't all together, but the sentiment against the union was greater than it was for it. And you run into trouble and they'd fight you. Some of the people really thought that it was -- they didn't have to have the company inspire them, they'd do it on their own because they thought from past experience or bad -- that they really thought the union would shut the mill down. So they came down and this fight ensued. And like I said, we always fought back. We didn't turn tail and run, we fought back. And some of them had guns and they was shooting in the anti people and they shot Homer -- Uh -- hot damn. [break in video] All right, I'll say it again damn it. I 00:14:00don't know why I say Homer.

GEORGE STONEY: Let's try it again. And just keep it as short as you can.

MCGILL: All right.

GEORGE STONEY: But the energy is great.

MCGILL: In Decatur, it was anti -- it was known to be anti-union and you was going to run into trouble if you went into Decatur talking union or trying to organize. Well during the days that we had to organize ourselves, groups and mills where they was doing pretty good would pick out another mill, they'd try to organize. So the group in Huntsville picked out Decatur, the Goodyear Mill there in Decatur made fabric for automobile tires. And they had the meetings down on the -- they'd advertise the meetings, come and everybody public and everybody. And they had a meeting down by the river. And of course the group come to break it up and they got into a fight. And that other group had guns. And they got to shooting. They shot Monroe Abcott in the leg. And, uh, oh, 00:15:00Monroe never let us forget that he got shot. He seemed to be very proud that fighting for the union that he irritated them enough to get shot in the leg over it. He felt like it was a good battle scar.

GEORGE STONEY: Did you know that Monroe was, uh, represented Alabama at the national meeting in New York and he told that story at the national meeting?

MCGILL: Yes. You never saw him after that anyway that he didn't tell it because he seemed to be proud of it.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, uh --

HELFAND: Maybe she could tell us that story about the national meeting?

GEORGE STONEY: OK, now you know about the national meeting in August when they decided to have the general strike.

MCGILL: I wasn't there. I only know -- I don't even remember if we were able to send a delegate. You see we had back then -- you had to, uh, pay your own way. The local had to pay so we paid a dollar a week -- dollar month -- a dollar to join initiation fee and then 25 cents a week dues. I don't remember 00:16:00if we had a delegate go. We probably couldn't afford it because it costs even then to send somebody to New York costs money. And, uh, I don't know if we had anybody. The only thing I know is that -- I do know that Homer -- because the people in Huntsville were -- it's a bigger group and they were well organized in Huntsville.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, could you describe the end of the strike? We know that it called off in, uh -- called off by Gorman. Just tell us why you think Gorman called off the strike. Now this is going to be kind of difficult but tight, why you thought Gorman called off the strike, how you felt when it got called off, and do you think it was necessary? Do you think you could've carried on? 00:17:00Just start off by saying well now when the strike --

MCGILL: Many people -- many people has faulted Francis Gorman for calling the strike off. I have mixed feelings about it. I was able to talk personally with Gorman during this time. He happened to come to Birmingham during this time and, uh, he and his aide was in here and I happened to have dinner with them and was able to talk about the situation personally with him. And that may color how I feel about it to a certain degree. But looking at it as we were faced then with no money and you have to have some money, the local -- the international union was flat broke without money, without manpower. And I do 00:18:00not see, uh, any alternative because, uh, just only in spots was it really affected. The first uh -- More people I think came out than he had anticipated because the people thought -- had so much confidence in the government that when Gorman -- he got pull off of the national strike, he didn't think they'd come pouring out of these non-union places where we had no union organizing going on. Well that happened. And it was much bigger than it was anticipated. And being the biggest industry in the country, it was just almost war. And the people who were working in the plant and with the small money they were making and local -- local unions had no one. By the time they paid their rent on their meeting places, paid their 25 cents a week, it didn't go very far. And the 00:19:00national union was going broke and did go broke, I mean spent all the money they had. And it was practically default. I feel that there was no alternative but to call it off. I do think there might have been places that while I'm not in favor of defying the national union, if places like Gadsden that felt so strong about it with that one mill there being an individual mill. They wouldn't have a whole big chain to fight. They might have stayed on in there and toughed it out and then won. I don't know. We'll never see. But I say that if they was going to defy the -- the international union that I would -- if they had to defy them to the point that they say, "Well we're not going back. We're going to stick it out on our own and try to win." They might've won there. I think it's a possibility they could've won there knowing the history of Gadsden from back in World War I and the old people who was there 00:20:00during that strike with the determination they had. I think they possibly could have won and done it on their own. But they would've had to have done it on their own anyhow because the national union -- if the strike had been carried on, there would have been very little the national organization could do anything for them because there was no money.

GEORGE STONEY: Now could you talk about Roosevelt and the strike?

MCGILL: To me Roosevelt, uh, uh, I think that, uh -- and this is all later on, looking back and viewing it and knowing things that I know now that I didn't know then and had no way of knowing then. I think Roosevelt has his popularity among some of the business groups was wearing out. And they just accepted him because the country was in such a terrible place, it was the situation when he took office, that businesses needed him just about as bad as the working class 00:21:00of people did. And I feel like the fact that they got on their feet to a certain extent -- because he started up some industries to give people work, to put some buying power in the pockets of the workers. And even before the WPA, there was several workplaces around Birmingham here that people went and worked. And I forget what they called them, but they was sponsored some way through the local government and the federal government. And after the businesses felt that they could go on their own and they got out of all they could, I think they began to turn against him and want to go back to their old ways of doing things and didn't want no more government interference. And, uh, I think that to a certain extent, it had a political effect of Roosevelt. And he felt that nobody hurt him politically. And you have to look at the whole picture. When you're playing politics, you can't look at this and say this is well -- you got to 00:22:00stick with us, you started with us, you got to stick with us. Let's face it, politics is politics. And I think that I -- I, uh -- I think with or without him sticking behind us, we would've failed anyway because there was no resources and it was bigger than we could handle.

GEORGE STONEY: Good, now we got to jump a lot. But you have told us about staying at the White House. As soon as that come out how different it was that a man as big as Roosevelt could be there. This is very important. This is not just for this film.

MCGILL: I think that was one time he wasn't playing politics because he had us anyone. We had nowhere else to go.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. Now tell about going into the White House and all that.

MCGILL: I'm going to give you something about the background of the trade union league and what come to be there.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, fine. OK that's good. And the fact that Mrs. Roosevelt was very prominent in it.

MCGILL: Uh-huh.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, good.

MCGILL: Uh, during the time -- about the time that we were organizing the textile here in the south and, uh, after the, uh, 1934 strike and when we lost 00:23:00and we had to go back to work without a contract and our union fell apart. During this time, Molly Dowd who was on the national board of the woman's trade union league had organized a chapter here in Birmingham and one in Huntsville. And I was a member of the, uh, Birmingham group, the woman's trade union league. And our purpose was to try to better the lot of working women. And this organization was predominantly union but 10% of the member under our constitution could be women who weren't members of the union but who had sympathies and was for the trying to improve the working conditions of the 00:24:00women. And, uh, I, uh, was active in this, uh, league of women voters --

GEORGE STONEY: No.

MCGILL: Oh, woman's trade union league. I'm sorry, I always say.

GEORGE STONEY: It's OK, go ahead.

MCGILL: Uh, women's trade union league and they had a convention in May of 1936 in Washington.

GEORGE STONEY: Now since we had to stop, I want you to say. I was active in this and it was an organization that had some prominent women like Mrs. Roosevelt to name some others.

MCGILL: Uh-huh, OK. Well the organization of the women's trade union league, it was formed I think around the early -- before the turn of the century. In fact it was instrumental in helping to form the Amalgamated Clothing Workers in 1914. It was started by a group of women, Miss Raymond Robbins and Mary Dewire 00:25:00and Elizabeth Christman and Miss Raymond Robbins and Mary Dewire were sisters. And they were not -- they were society people and very good friends of the Roosevelts. Mary Dewire was a member of the New York league which Miss Roosevelt was a member of. And, uh, so when they had this convention in May of 1936, they offered me what they called a scholarship to come to -- attend the convention. Uh, and part of my training as an organizer, that was really the purpose of offering me the scholarship. So, uh, I was working in the mill and, um, I certainly wanted to go. I never had been anywhere. And I asked the -- my boss if I could be off this certain week in May and he said, "Well I don't know. Later on, nearer time that you want off, if you will remind me, if I can 00:26:00possibly let you off I will." So a week before I reminded him and he said, "OK, you can be off." Well we were going to leave on this Friday. And that was my last day to work. I was going to leave that afternoon. So I didn't work that Friday. And that afternoon Miss Dowd had told us that Eleanor Roosevelt had invited the delegates from Alabama, Huntsville and Birmingham, to be her guest in the White House that week along with the delegates from her own league in New York City. So, uh, our pictures -- it probably never been said anything about me going to Washington had it not been for being invited to be at the White House that week. So our pictures broke in the paper. And that 00:27:00afternoon that we left, so we went up onto Washington. And it was quite amusing. Of course, we had never been anywhere. We drove through and spent one night on the road. We got in -- we wanted to get in there in the afternoon, into Washington. So we left our car downtown and to take a taxi to the White House. And when we got in the car, in the taxi, and we told the driver we wanted to go to the White House, he didn't seem to faze him but on the way up there he said, "Which entrance?" And we said, "The main entrance." He turned around and gave us a look, you know. But he went ahead. He seemed surprised when the head usher come out and welcomed us, was expecting us. He didn't know who he had in the taxi here that was going to the White House and being received there in the main entrance. And he wasn't much more surprised 00:28:00than I was to tell you the truth. So we went in and we had an usher told us that Miss Roosevelt was out in Washington State. That's where her daughter Anna was living at her birthday. It was her birthday. But President Roosevelt wanted to welcome us. And when we got settled in to meet down in the east room I believe it was at six o'clock. So we was lucky enough to have Miss Mary Dewire and this other woman who knew their way around to fill us in and they understood what the protocol was. And we all went on down to the east room and sat down which that's when we met the delegation from New York. And I remember I never will forget one of the ladies looking around and said, "Fat 00:29:00chance we would've had sitting in the White House with Calvin Coolidge here, huh." So when Roosevelt -- President Roosevelt came in, I was shocked because I didn't know he was crippled. I had heard him on the radio. But I never saw him much on news reels because I never went to movies, didn't have the money and I worked. And I was so surprised when they wheeled him off their in the wheelchair. But I never saw a man that radiated personality like that man. He just beamed when he got up. And I'm not exaggerating, I just -- I'm not a person that -- I know politicians and I know when it's put on and when it's real. And, uh, he sat and chatted with us. First they asked us had we had anything to eat. And back then it was --

GEORGE STONEY: Hold it. OK. We got to pick it up here to save it. The first thing you said --