JAMIE STONEY: Stopped to help a lady a couple of months ago, sitting by the
side of the road the wheel of her car is off--[break in video]
GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.
JAMIE STONEY: About there?
GEORGE STONEY: Mmm-hmm. Yeah that's good.
JAMIE STONEY: Okay, we have speed.
GEORGE STONEY: Okay, Arthur, tell me why you think--why did you join the union
and why did your parents join the union?ARTHUR DUNCAN: Well whenever –- before the union ever came in we really
didn't know what discrimination things was. In our young days cotton mill was, it was almost slave labor, to tell you the truth about it. So if they -- so we decided if they come in there and they say you being mistreated union come and told us --and, and not the union but representatives of the union come in and told us that we was being discriminated and we should have better rights than what we have. And we had meetings on it and talk about it, and so therefore they influenced us that we should have better than what we was having. Not so much 00:01:00the wages and hours cause we had already got eight hours and we'd already got minimum wages. That wasn't it, but the thing was better working conditions with better lighting, we had the poorest lighting in the world in there. And then they cut out what little they had at eight o'clock in the morning, as soon as the sun come up the cut out what little they had. And we had -- we was running dark stuff and we just couldn't see. And we was wanting better working conditions more than anything else we was after, and being treated more fairly.GEORGE STONEY: Could you think of any indecent of mistreatment that you observed
or that happened to you?DUNCAN: Well let me see now, I – anything that happened actually happened to
me induvially, I wouldn't say it was to me individually, more less a whole to the crowd as a general principle to the employees.GEORGE STONEY: Tell us about your father and your brother and how they joined
the union. 00:02:00DUNCAN: Well they had a meeting for the union, union representatives come down
and had meetings, and they was telling us, talking to us about more or less about the conditions or the working thing. And as I've said several times I had a sick child and I didn't go much to 'em. But they would come back and relay the message to me, and they said that they was telling them that they should have better working conditions, they should not be in a sweatshop, they should be -- have some say so about the attitude they was treated with and everything and we just didn't have it. In other words, back in them days whenever you went to work in the mill, they told you what to do. It was more or less as so a child and his father. And you had to do what they telled you to or either you just didn't have no job one, and they'd let you go. And if they let one person go in the family they let the whole family go.GEORGE STONEY: Okay, that's, that's very clear. Now talk about your father
00:03:00and brother and you, when you joined the union and when you got discharged?DUNCAN: Well in nineteen- in nineteen whenever they – when we joined the union
and the union come in there in nineteen and I don't know.GEORGE STONEY: Let's start again. It was the summer of 1933 when they first
started organizing.DUNCAN: Yeah right. In the summer of 1933 we have representatives of the unions
come to us and they talked to us. And they only told us about the actual facts because lots of representatives was working in the mill. The facts that we was inducted, we knew what was being done. So therefore that more or less enticed to realize that we were being discriminated because they had you know other places that wasn't doing that. And they would just tell us if you just join the union then we'll do something for your benefit. In other words you'll have somebody to stand up for you. And then therefore we decided we'd join, -- my father and brother joined first, and they come back and they was telling about 00:04:00what they said at the union meetings where the representative was at and thing, and it sounded good. Because it was something--we wasn't fighting our company, what we was trying to do was to get better working conditions.GEORGE STONEY: Now you remember where the meetings took place and who the people
were who came?DUNCAN: Well now I don't remember the people actually who they were, but we
had a [T.G. Farmer?] had in Newnan had a store a large store there in Newnan, in other words he kept up with the farmers you pay for him by the year. And he had a hall upstairs and so therefore he let us have that hall upstairs to have the union meetings in. Because you couldn't go in –- there were about four mills there--but you couldn't go on their property, because it was theirs individually owned. So he, he opened up that place overstairs that store, [T.G. Farmer?]and Son let us have a meetings there. 00:05:00GEORGE STONEY: I'm going to get you to do that again, because, hold it just a
minute Jamie.[break in video]
DUNCAN: (inaudible) Talking about the union like that. We had one local for all
the mills. And the reason why we had that, the mill company owned everything. They owned the house, and they owned everything, so we had to get on neutral ground somewhere to have the meetings. So we rented an upstairs apartment of [T.G. Farmer?] and Son's store and that's where they held the meetings at up over that store. And all the mills that was in that county participated in that one place because the company own all the houses and everything and all the mills and therefore you wouldn't, couldn't meet on their property.GEORGE STONEY: Weren't people afraid to come to those meetings?
DUNCAN: Well they was assured--
GEORGE STONEY: (inaudible)
DUNCAN: When the people were scared to come to the meetings they was assured
that they would have somebody to stand up for them and if they fired them that they'd have somebody to go to court for them and win the case for 'em. And 00:06:00they, they didn't get organized enough to get that set up really. And it was sort of a hit and miss thing to start with. So therefore the companies, the mill companies taking the change--they didn't tell us that, but we gonna get shot of the agitators the ones that are giving us the most trouble. And that's the ones that they first went to laying off. Agitators is what they said, was giving them the most trouble, the organizers.GEORGE STONEY: Now there was a hearing here in the fall, do you remember that
hearing and tell what Mr. Freeman said about--DUNCAN: About the (inaudible) well yeah we had a meeting there in the Newnan
Cotton Mill, calling a meeting, well I don't know if they called it but anyhow, they was being put on the carpet about firing people, you know.GEORGE STONEY: (inaudible) I'm sorry. It was a government hearing--
DUNCAN: Yeah a government hearing.
GEORGE STONEY: --and when you talk about Mr. Freeman, say he was a
superintendent at the mills.DUNCAN: Okay.
GEORGE STONEY: Okay?
DUNCAN: Okay.
GEORGE STONEY: Okay now.
DUNCAN: Okay. Well they was coming up to the point where there was a government
00:07:00hearing on the (inaudible) the people that was laid off. Whether it was legal or not to lay them off. And a representative of the mill Mr. Freeman. Of course they was fighting for their side which was natural for them to do. And they would ask the question, on particular question, say, "Well how come you fire Arthur [Ayres?] after joining the union?" And they'd said, "I come here to fire [L.P. Dunn?] for joining the union." They say, "We didn't fire [L.P. Dunn?] for joining the union, we fired him because he didn't wear a moustache. And we fired Arthur [Ayres?] because he did wear a moustache."GEORGE STONEY: That's great! Okay now, you talked about the 400.
DUNCAN: Yeah.
GEORGE STONEY: Talk about that and all of that. Okay.
DUNCAN: Well the 400 that was, that was the people in charge and the owners of
mills and one thing or another, so we called them the 400. Like the upper class, the highest representatives of the mill and the owners of the mill. And they 00:08:00was the 400 bunch. And we, I don't, we just didn't, never was, meeting with the 400 (inaudible). We always met with the representative somebody they told them what they could do. And they give they're bosses, the ones that was over them in the mills, they give them the authority to fire anybody they want to. You can fire anybody you want to. And nothing nobody can do about it. And there wasn't up till then cause we had no representatives or nothing. So they, if somebody didn't like them they'd just fire them just like you said for wearing a moustache. They could fire 'em for any reason you wanted to, and nobody fought for them.GEORGE STONEY: Okay now, that hearing didn't put those people back to work?
DUNCAN: No.
GEROGE STONEY: And so describe say the hearing didn't put people back to work,
so right after Christmas there was a wildcat strike describe that.DUNCAN: Yeah. Well after they had the hearing over there they fired some of the
employees. And they and they didn't put 'em back, they didn't put the 00:09:00employees that they fired back to work. They, they uh first used one excuse and then another to try to legalize theirself. They'd say, "Well they didn't meet us at a certain time in a certain place." And they didn't get the notice of meeting at a certain time at a certain place, so they just didn't put them back to work. And then they called a meeting of the union at the lodge and they voted not to strike. But some of the ones that was hurt the worst, stayed on after the meeting was dismissed, and called back in and had another hearing and voted to strike. But the general principle of it when the first meeting was called is vote not to strike, because they figured it was illegal.GEORGE STONEY: Now tell about that strike.
DUNCAN: Well it was a, it was a wildcat strike. And instead of just saying
striking they employees went down there and put locks on the gates. Locked everybody out, the employees did. And of course when the representatives of the mill, bosses and things begin to come in, they just meet 'em at the gate and say you can't go 00:10:00in. Well there was no violence I reckon they take them at their word and just turn back, you know. And some of 'em, one fellow said, walked up and said, "No you can't go in there." And they said, "We'll see about that." And he had a key to the gate. (inaudible) the gate men and they fell in front of the gate (inaudible) And he said, "Well you boys gonna be sorry about this.", and walked off. So there was not violence in it at all, they would just turn back you know without violence.GEORGE STONEY: And how was that strike settled, what happened?
DUNCAN: Well that strike never was settled. They went on and got a bill of
injunction against the people because it was illegal to put locks on somebody else's property. And they got an injunction against them and the sheriff had to come down and saw the locks off. And then some of representatives of the union, especially the repre--I, I mean the people especially the ones what we would call working for the union decided to (inaudible) . They, they left and 00:11:00went, went right on off left there then you know right immediately. And of course as soon as everybody left they come back and told their part of it and they wasn't fired some of them was made overseers and that.GEORGE STONEY: I want to do that again. Because it's a lot too much
information right at once.DUNCAN: Okay.
GEORGE STONEY: I want you to say -- tell me about what happened after, that they
got an injunction, and so we all had to go back. And then what happened to the leaders of the strike, okay?DUNCAN: Okay. The got a mill injunction because the way they'd done it,
putting licks on somebody else's property was illegal. So they got a injunction against the union for that, and the sheriff and them had to come in and saw the locks off. So and then the leaders of it, I mean the ones, the one--some of the leaders of it walked on off and had an excuse not to never work 00:12:00them no more, but some of 'em that was on both sides walked off. And the ones on the other side they come back and told about and they was reinstated, and some of them even made bosses later on.GEORGE STONEY: Was there a lot of snitching around or?
DUNCAN: Well they was some. But it was--
GEORGE STONEY: Uh, uh, uh some what?
DUNCAN: They was some snitching around, but most of it was undercover. They,
they, would in other words they--you, you, you wouldn't know who you was talking to. And they would go talk to the boss if you said anything. In other words I would say (inaudible)and they was trying to be familiar on both sides, friendly on both sides.GEORGE STONEY: Now what happened to your family, your brother, your father and
you, did you have to leave mill village just what happened?DUNCAN: Well yes, no I didn't have to leave the mill village at the same time
they did. They--GEORGE STONEY: No, no, no, sorry.
DUNCAN: Okay, whenever the strike was over, whenever they sawed the locks off
00:13:00and went in, uh they didn't call me a striker because like I said I wasn't participating in cause I had sick children. But they did call me a sympathizer. But they told me they'd give me a certain length of time to come back to the job. Well whenever I went back to the job, after my child got sick, they still decided they wouldn't use because they, they might- bring on bring some of my family back in or something or other. Well my daddy and brother, they moved out of the mill village right then. I stayed on until after--until March of the next year before I left and they never did tell me I had to leave.GEORGE STONEY: What happened to you?
DUNCAN: In, in what?
GEORGE STONEY: After you left in March what happened to you?
DUNCAN: Well after I left I went, I went to Porterdale for when I left from
there. But whenever they I mean I, I went back and they just told me, "Well 00:14:00we cannot hire you back. You wasn't a striker and you didn't strike, you didn't participate in that but you was a sympathizer. So therefore we can't hire you back. It's better to get a job somewhere else." And I went and talked to a superintendent about and he said, "well it's better to--- we going to forget that one of these days.", he says. "I'll just give you a recommendation and you can go somewhere else and get you a job." And therefore he give me a recommendation and I went somewhere else and got a job. So I can't say that the mill company actually drove me off. But it did some of the other ones.GEORGE STONEY: But it did make you have to leave the village where you'd grown
up and the family, -- so could you talk about how it felt to be driven out the place where (phone rings) –-[break in video] GEORGE STONEY: -- when--
DUNCAN: Oh yeah.
GEORGE STONEY: -- had to leave the--and you don't have to talk so fast.
DUNCAN: Yeah. Okay. Well--
GEORGE STONEY: Yeah?
JUDITH HELFAND: Could you tell--
[break in video]
DUNCAN: Well I'll tell you they, they didn't give no specified, the mill
company did not give me a specified time to get out. But they did refuse me 00:15:00work. So therefore there was nothing else I could do but get out. But anyway I went onto live in the mill village until April of '35. And in April '35 I went, I finally went – I hunted all over the place hunting jobs and finally found a job at Porterdale, if I would get a recommendation and they give me a recommendation. And they didn't give me anything except on my work you see. So therefore the Bibb Manufacturing Company at Porterdale hired me. But anyway I felt pretty bad for all those years walked and did everything else hunting jobs. And had two small children and one of them sickly. And I just, it was, it was pretty – I felt pretty bad about it. But I don't think I ever really had any resentment against my company. I had resentments some of their representatives maybe. 00:16:00GEORGE STONEY: That's it. Uh now, could you tell about what you saw when the
flying squadron came in and why you thought that flying squadron had to come in , why the local union couldn't have handled it all by themselves?DUNCAN: Well in 19--in the time that they called the general strike the Newnan
Mills did not go out on strike because they did not have enough (inaudible), enough union , I mean enough members to go out on strike. They was I don't know what percentage but it wasn't enough percentage that they could go out. And they know they had gotten in trouble by locking people out, so they knowed they couldn't do that. So these flying squads come from other mills and shut 'em down. And shut the mills down. Now they went to Newnan Cotton Mill Number One and they shut them down. And then (inaudible) number two got on the phone, I mean number one, and called number two and they shut it down before the squad got there. So they didn't shut the number two mill down. When they go there, 00:17:00when the squad got there and saw that it was already shut down, they just went on didn't do anything to number two. And that's where I was at was number two.GEORGE STONEY: Now stop it just a moment--
[break in video]
JAMIE STONEY: Speed.
GEORGE STONEY: Alright sir.
DUNCAN: Okay, in the time we are talking about, in the time of general strike
the mill companies, the company I worked for, did not have enough--was not strong enough to shut a mill down. Were not strong enough to strike and cause any effect. So we had to have outside help to done it. The flying squads from other places was gonna come in and help 'em shut it down. And us, so they did. They come to number one and they shut it down. And whenever they shut it down they called number two and said "Get your folks out of there just as quick as you can." And I was working at the time I hadn't been laid off at that time. I was working. They said, "Get your folks out of the mill as quick as you can before they get down there." And we had--they had got them out and the mill was cleared before the squad got there. So they didn't do anything there at 00:18:00that particular mill. But I felt awful bad seeing, you know I -- seeing people that was one against another. Cause all of them was my friends and I felt bad seeing one against another there you know.GEOGRE STONEY: Uh, just go back a little bit, why did you feel you needed the
flying squadrons to come out? What had happened beforehand that led up to that?DUNCAN: What had happened before the flying squad come about? Well they –
they was on the account of them (inaudible). Different ones that participated in the union--GEORGE STONEY: No, no, sorry. I want you to go back, way back before Christimas
they'd fired--[break in video]
DUNCAN: Okay.
GEORGE STONEY: Alright sir.
DUNCAN: Whenever they--back whenever they was first organizing, begin to fire
some of the main organizers, was the main ones in it. And uh so that was before the wildcat strike. And after the wildcat strike come in, they still begin to find excuses to fire other people. So the union was getting weaker and weaker all the time. And that's the reason why we had to have help, flying squadrons, 00:19:00to come in and shut them down from other places. And Hogansville was the main mill that participated in it, cause where they sent most of them from and they come up and shut the mill down in front of the gates. They didn't use any violence, they didn't have to cause the mill company went on knuckle to them when the squads got there. And that's whenever they of course called the troops out. But on that (inaudible)--there had just been an election you know, Herman Talmagde was elected governor. Just had been election. And he had come out and made the talk that he had to the union people had a friend in the governor's chair as long as they'd stay cool. And they stayed cool for about five minutes after he was sworn in and they wasn't cool anymore. He come and shot 'em down. Said to let the squads come in and shot them down I mean the National Guard. And what was so sad about it was some of the union people was 00:20:00in the National Guards and they had to come and help against their own family and friends.GEORGE STONEY: Why do you think Talmadge did that?
DUNCAN: Well I don't have no idea.
GEORGE STONEY: I don't have no idea of why Talmadge – okay?
DUNCAN: Yeah. I don't have no idea why Talmadge did that. Now it was all
rumors about different things. I don't know why or nothing about it. Why he done it. Course we all participated he was bought out. Now for that or so I couldn't swear that to be so. But we thought he was bought out because he had so violently told the union that if they would stay cool they had a friend in the governor's chair. So he turned out he wasn't a very good friend after they go through to that organization is what I'm talking about.GEORGE STONEY: Stop it just a minute. We've--
[break in video]
GEORGE STONEY: Okay. Go
JAMIE STONEY: Rolling.
DUNCAN: In the flying squadron at that time they was going around, they come to
Newnan, the come to mill number one. That was the mill up inside of the city limits of Newnan. And of course East Newnan we was working at number two. And 00:21:00whenever they got up there and made them come out of, walk out under the sticks and things and clubs and things, and then they got on the phone and called number two and told them to shut down. Shut that thing down before the flying squad got there. So number two was shut down at the request of the company. Not at the force of union. But number two was shut down at the request of the company.GEORGE STONEY: Okay, I don't--I think we'll have to get that from Ms.
Parham. Uh we were talking with you the other day and you were explaining to us or maybe we were suggesting is why do you think it's important to record all this history?DUNCAN: Well I think to record what we need to record history, I know there is a
lot of times that I would have loved to have known what went on among my ancestors and things, and I think it was very important that generations on both sides of the issue to know what actually went on. And just to find out exactly 00:22:00what their people was involved or whether their people caused violence or what it was all about. I think it was really just a big misunderstanding in between real friends. Most the people there was real friends. Had lived together years and was real friends. And it was a tragic and hurtful thing to have to go against your friends and your family and everything. But that's why I said I never felt any ill will towards any of them. I felt like each individual ought to have a right to his own opinion and his own way of life and own way of living. I've always felt thata way.GEORGE STONEY: Do you feel that the mill management had an unfair advantage in this?
DUNCAN: I think that the mill management did have an unfair advantage because at
that time each individual even the overseer could fire you without any excuse what so ever. If they didn't like you they could just walk up and fire you. 00:23:00Like they said over here they fired my daddy because he--they fired him because he didn't wear a moustache. And another man he fired him cause he did wear--in other words you could make your own excuse then cause the law did not protect, the United States law did not protect employees at that time. And that's one thing that the union accomplished. Even though we lost in that strike and everything it accomplished the government – employers cannot just, you know bulldoze people without any reason for it what so ever. Which why I think is a great thing accomplished if nothing else was.GEORGE STONEY: Good. Okay. Now we've been looking at the local newspaper.
DUNCAN: Yeah.
GEORGE STONEY: And they were so strongly for the manufactures.
DUNCAN: Yeah.
GEORGE STONEY: could you talk about the, the local newspapers? Whether you read
them or not? The effect they had? Should we believe the local newspapers, talk about that. 00:24:00DUNCAN: Well now the local newspapers I think the whole time that they was –
that they was probably some the officials had stocks probably in the mills. And probably was officials of mills some of them. So therefore they, I don't think, I don't think they give anybody a fair shake except employers. Cause they were on their side, in other words they was on the money's side. Probably was owned by most of the money men.GEORGE STONEY: Okay let's do that again a little shorter.
DUNCAN: A little shorter?
GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.
DUNCAN: Okay I think whenever we had that strike, the local newspapers and
things, I think they printed their side of the story and nobody else's side of the story. And I think that's one of the reason why the general public was in favor of the mill companies instead of the people cause they didn't get the true facts.GEORGE STONEY: No did you feel that as a person walking around the streets?
00:25:00DUNCAN: Well yes in a way. Walking around the streets I did feel that way, but
I still didn't feel like they was my enemies nobody. I felt like that I was still among friends even though we disagreed. I didn't feel like I was gonna have any bodily harm or such done to me.GEORGE STONEY: Good. Okay I think that's important --
[break in video]
GEORGE STONEY: -- Hogansville. Do we have any facts on that Judy?
HELFAND: When Uniroyal came into Hogansville?
GEORGE STONEY: Mmm-hmm.
HELFAND: Uniroyal was the Stark Mills, it was there.
DUNCAN: 1933, I think. I'm not sure.
GEORGE STONEY: Uhhh, mm-hmm.
HELFAND: (inaudible)
[break in video]
DUNCAN: Well they would.
GEORGE STONEY: Just let (inaudible). Alright sir.
DUNCAN: How the Uniroyal kept out at Hogansville after I went down there was
they would give you almost the same value as the union was giving. Because they had mills that was organized. And they give us that value and say "Well you don't have to pay no dues and belong to the union, cause we gonna give you the same thing we give up there." And would pretty near do it, they wouldn't 00:26:00quite do it but pretty near do it. But if you considered what you'd have to pay union dues and everything they was probably giving us as much as the union getting. So therefore it wasn't no use having a union and folks just didn't do it.GEORGE STONEY: Do you feel that that was right?
DUNCAN: Well I don't really think so. I think they were getting something
under false pretense at the time of it because they because, there wasn't telling you we're giving you so and so, we're giving you, we're, we're giving you what we got to give you. To keep you from going against us.GEORGE STONEY: Now you told us a story about getting fired.
DUCNAN: Yeah.
GEORGE STONEY: Just say, "Well when I got fired this is what happened." Alright?
DUNCAN: At East Newnan?
GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.
DUNCAN: Well this is, this is about getting fired now. They told me they was
gonna forget you know, some of the union and work them people right on just the same. I talked to the superintendent and so this is what actually happened to me. I had to stay out three or four days on account of a sick child and then 00:27:00whenever I come back in they say "Well its best we not have you in there. I think its better cause we're not you participated but you was a sympathizer. So therefore we're letting you off on account of being a sympathizer. But we will help you get a job somewhere else."GEORGE STONEY: Okay.
HELFAND: Um.
GEORGE STONEY: Yeah?
HELFAND: What point was that?
DUNCAN: That was number two. At number two.
HELFAND: Was that in '34 after the general strike--
DUNCAN: Yeah after the general strike.
HELFAND: So George maybe we need to – so Mr. Duncan was working there during
the general strike.DUNCAN: I was there until the general strike until it come out and they
wouldn't work me no more on account they said I was a union sympathizer.GEORGE STONEY: Okay, we got to the fact that you got a recommendation. Mr.
Nixon was the fellow that gave you--DUNCAN: Yeah. (inaudible)
GEORGE STONEY: Would you mind doing that once again. I went back and talked
00:28:00to--you couldn't get a job without--start off, you couldn't get a job in any textile mill without a recommendation--DUNCAN: Okay.
GEORGE STONEY: So I went back okay.
DUNCAN: Okay, in 1934 after the –- well actually early '35 because the
strike was so late in '34, I tried everywhere to get a job. Walked all over the country. You could not get a job without a recommendation, and that's the first thing they asked you. So I go back to Mr. Carl Nixon, and asked if he would give me a recommendation. And he said, "Yes, I'll give you one your labor, your work, and I won't give you one on your character." I don't want one on my character I can prove my own character. So he give me a recommendation it was on--you know that I was a satisfactory fly frame operator. And I got a job on the strength of that -- Bibb Manufacturing Company at Porterdale Georgia.GEORGE STONEY: But what do they do over there at Porterdale?
DUNCAN: Well they, they, they, they had had a worse time in the strike than we
did you know. But they was so desperate for help. They figured nobody would 00:29:00ever do that again. In other words they didn't think that strike would ever come out again because the union was so soundly beaten till they felt like it would never organize again. And they wanted good help and if you had recommend for good help, they'd hire them regardless of what they've done at other places. But they wouldn't hire their own back. Ones that participated in their particular mill.