Arthur Duncan Interview 3

 GEORGE STONEY: So you're looking at me again. I want you to kind of walk around in your mind, walk around East Newnan and tell me what it was like.

ARTHUR DUNCAN: Okay. Walk around through the mill. Okay. I'll start walking around through the mill and talking about it in the cards. That's where they first started to -- they first -- the card room come -- laps come in and put it on the cards. Then they run into a little, small coil of cotton coming out the front side. And it went into a can, which can hold about 10 pound at that time. And then they taken them cans later on and went through what they called a drawing frame. And they run through that drawing frame. They run 6 cans through and it come out and go into a can just like that on the front of that 00:01:00drawing frame, same size -- the cotton'd be the same size, but it would be stretched, you know, six times what it was to start with. And then they'd take that and put it on another set of drawings and stretch it six times as long as it was, six in behind each one of 'em, six times longer and it still come out just like it was when it come away from the card. That's where it went on what they called a slubber and it went through that slubber and went on a ball -- big ball of yarn, what they called it. It had no top and bottom except it had a thing at the bottom that we could see itself, but the top was just a hole sits down on the spindle there and it wraps around what they call a flyer -- wrapped that thing around that spindle, around that bobbin. And then that went over then to what they called a first intermediate(?). And it come out on the bobbin just a little bit smaller, but they run two together and it come out on the bobbin and it was just a little bit smaller. Then it went into what they called a second intermediate(?) and it was a -- and it come out -- put two together and it come out on one bobbin a little bit smaller. And then they went to what they called a jack, the smallest frame, and it come in a little smaller package and 00:02:00two run together again. And from there, it could go to the spinning room and become the spinning. So it was a -- a process then that they thought had to be done. Of course, later years they done away with that. They come just from one set of drawing to the fly frames. They'd skipped all that other stuff and just, you know, run it into the fly frame in just one set of drawing.

GEORGE STONEY: You had a very famous supervisor. Tell us about him.

DUNCAN: Well, we had a -- you're talking about the regular sup-- overseer? Well, he was a man that was -- he had a heart on him. And, like I said to start with, he could hire you or he could fire you. And, ah, he would give you -- I mean he'd give you the benefit --

STONEY: Let's start again and give him his name.

DUNCAN: Evett Parks was our supervisor. He was the overseer and he was a pretty ni-- he was a nice man. He -- he'd give you justice in anything you wanted. 00:03:00And he had the authority of -- to raise your wages, lower your wages, or whatever it was. In other words, they -- he had the complete authority to run that section there. The company give him that authority. They didn't mess with him at all. He had that authority. So he could fire or hire you, whatever he wanted to do, and he could tell you what shift you'd work on and everything else. So -- but he was fair and he give us a -- he give us a pretty square deal. And, ah, I worked for him about 11 years, something around 11 years. So me and him never had any problems. So we got along fine. He had a man under him, what they called a "second hand", and most of the time that overseer worked through that second hand. He was the one that brought to you -- brought the message actually to you. But he was a gentle man. In other words, he was a commander, the overseer was. Evett Parks and the second hand was Harvey Cash.

STONEY: Now could you walk -- you went to school -- where did you go to school?

DUNCAN: Well, I went to school -- I started here in Carroll County, over at the little old Rutherwood School about 12 miles from here. A one-room school, one teacher. Everybody was in the same room and there would be from 1 to 5 in a class is all you'd ever have. And she'd -- you'as in there when all the classes recited, but you's setting back in your seat studying. You done all your studying. You stayed all day. You walked whatever distance you had to go from right at the schoolhouse to 3 or 4 miles, whatever distance you had to go, you walked both ways, rain or shine. And the teacher had authority over you from the time -- minute you left your house. Your parents didn't have no more authority over you. And they could whup you for things you went home -- you done on the way to and from school. And, ah -- but they -- most of 'em was fair. Most of 'em'd give you a fair shake. So -- but they'd send you to get you a switch to whup yourself with. (laughs)

STONEY: How much education did you have?

DUNCAN: Only went through the fifth grade. I graduated when I's going into the sixth grade. (laughs)

STONEY: Why did you go any further?

DUNCAN: Well, it was at that time -- it's like we was talking about -- that the boll weevils was running us out of the country and everything, and people just had to -- had to have the children work to have 'em make a living. We went to the cotton mill and they worked 'em. They didn't have no age limit. You could go in there and go to work for whatever they would have paid ye'. So they just had to have us to help make a living. And that's the reason why. And back then we didn't think -- you know, a kid, they don't think they need no education nohow, you know. If you can make pretty good money, what's the use of having an education? And -- but that learnt me that it was important. So I ground it into my children's head and I ground it into my grandchildren and all's head. Now I got two children went through college. One of 'em went through nurse's training, oldest daughter. And oldest boy, he went through college and he worked for Graybar for several years. But my baby girl didn't go through college, but she did take a business course. So I tried to fix them up in life to where they wouldn't have to slave like I did all the years.

STONEY: Good. Tell us about your wife now.

DUNCAN: Ah, well, she was raised as a poor person, too. Now her mother died when she was about 3 years old and she was raised with a stepmother. And her stepmother was --I understand, was pretty mean to her, pretty cruel to her in the sense of working -- like folks used to think all stepmothers was, but that's not so with all stepmothers. But, anyhow, her stepmother did give her a hard time and she got blamed for a lot of things she didn't do. Then she had fever when she was about 12-13 years old, typhoid fever, and lost all of her hair. When it come back, it come back curly. So she looked better after she had the fever than she did before. But, anyway, she had a hard life. She worked in a cotton mill like I did and she never knowed anything but hard work. And she had less of an education than I did. She didn't -- I don't think she went maybe to the second grade or something like that. So she just didn't have the education.

STONEY: But later on she got into some health troubles. Tell about that.

DUNCAN: Oh, yeah. Yeah. And that'as after we -- we went to -- in 193 --'41 when we went to Hogansville, they had what they called the asbestos section in the mill and she -- they gave her a job down there. And at that time nobody knowed anything about asbestosis being dangerous. And she worked down there about 4 years, I believe it was -- a little better -- a little over 4 years. And we heard it was dangerous and so I told her, I said, "You going to quit. You ain't going to work in that asbestos no more." And she quit and, ah, stayed out -- stayed out about 2 years. And then sent for her to come back one day and I said, "Now she can't come back and go into asbestosis. I'm not a-going to let her go in there." So they gave her a job up in the other part of the mill and then a short times come on up in that part of the mill and she let 'em transfer her back to asbestos. And they'd done built a plant out there then. And I said, "Well now, I got you out of it one time and I kept you from going back in. I'm going to let you go now if you want to do it that-away." And she developed 00:08:00that asbestosis, and which is a horrible disease. It's a form of cancer because that gets -- that asbestos gets in your lungs and it grows and just gets bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. It don't die when it gets in your lungs. It grows. And her lungs just growed till one of 'em collapsed before she ever died and then she just literally smothered to death. I said I saw her literally smother to death. And she never got any compensation or anything out of the mill, but later on we did hire a lawyer and I got a little bit money out of -- after she died, a little bit of money out the stuff. She got about $9,000, I think, out of all that suffering she got into from the companies that supplied the asbestosis.

STONEY: Now could you talk about the discrimination you felt after for being in the union?

DUNCAN: Well, it -- actually -- actually the only discrimination that I actually had, because they didn't let me come back in, was not letting me 00:09:00come back in. And then they didn't hold me out from going to another mill. In other words, I went to Bibb Manufacturing Company in Porterdale(?) and the general manager give me a recommendation that I was a satisfied -- satisfactory supply frame operator and they hired me up there on them grounds. So I actually wasn't -- didn't suffer other than just was refused to have a job in the plant that I was working in. Now they's lot of it was, but I wasn't. Just the only discrimination I had was just refusing to let me go back on my job that I had.

STONEY: Now do you -- after the strike, what do you think the union did?

DUNCAN: Well, I don't think they ever did anything much. I think that was such a --

STONEY: (inaudible) after the strike

DUNCAN: I think that was such a blow to 'em whenever they -- they --

STONEY: Now start it over and mention the union.

DUNCAN: Okay. In the union whenever they had the strike, they called it a lockout. In other words, the union put locks on the gates. And they got a (inaudible) injunction against 'em and they come back and sawed them locks off. 00:10:00Well, that sort of broke the spirit of a lot of people in the union and they didn't -- they didn't participate as strong as they had. And they never have, many of the mills, got able to be organized since then, not in this part of the country, because it was so -- it was so horrible on 'em at that time and they were discriminated and they just didn't want to participate anymore, you know. So most of 'em didn't.

STONEY: What we want to show you now—

JUDITH HELFAND: (inaudbile)

STONEY: (inaudible)

HELFAND: Some pieces maybe—

STONEY: What haven't we gotten?

[break in video]

STONEY: Before the organization and then when they started organizing, tell us sort of step by step how it happened.

DUNCAN: How the organization happened?

STONEY: Yeah.

DUNCAN: Well, okay.

STONEY: Hold it, wait a minute.

CREW: We're rolling

DUNCAN: We go back to where we -- when they first -- before ever having any organized labor in the mills. It was a -- you know, it was like I said, at one of them places you could even get out and go to town or anywhere you wanted to go. As long as your job was running, you could go home, get you something to 00:11:00eat and, ah, if you wanted to go home or something there, you get your next door neighbor in the job to watch your job and they'd watch your'n and their'n, too, and they'd let you go and you come back. But now after organized labor got in there, you see, all that was done away with. But one thing at that particular time, they wouldn't even allow you to drink a Coke-Cola in the mill. Our superintendent thought, well, that was -- because it was called "dope", he thought you'as getting -- coming around with dope, you know, and the superintendent didn't allow even a Coke-Cola to be brought in the mill. Later on they did put 'em in there. But, anyhow, it was just almost a picnic working in the mill. Then after organized labor come in and why they organized, like I said, just like I was, only reason why they organized because it was sort of a sweatshop and they didn't have -- and we thought the overseers and things had a little too much authority, where they would fire you and hire you and whatever they wanted to. And, ah, they was -- we saw a lot of people that was 00:12:00discriminated on. In other words, if a -- you had a child and he got off and got drunk, they'd fire everybody was kin to him in the whole family, run everybody off that was kin to him. And we didn't think that was fair, and that was one thing that brought the organized labor on. And then another thing was the sweatshop and the boss having too much authority and everything. That was the main thing that brought the organized labor, because we already had the 8 hours and we already had a fair -- what we thought was fair wages, because they was giving 30 cents an hour, which we thought was a wonderful -- $12 a week, that was something to be bragged about, you know. And, ah, so we -- that -- the labor and hours wasn't what caused organized labor. More of it was on account of they had some-- they'd do -- what they do to you -- how they could ban you, how they could run the whole family off for one person's mistake. And that was the main thing about the organized -- but after the organized labor come in, then they put clamps on things like that, but they had to do it gradually. In other words, we had a -- they fired -- had a trial on some people that they 00:13:00fired. And this is how they got away with it. There was a man there that'd say, "We didn't fire that man for joining the union. We fired him because he wore a mustache." And they turned around and looked at my daddy, said, "We didn't fire him because he joined the union. We fired him because he didn't wear a mustache." And they made it stick and got by with it. But the union -- I mean after the union got to having the laws and legislation passed, they got all kind of stuff done away with, where they couldn't discriminate. And that was the main purpose of the union, was to try to keep the discrimination and get 'che out of the sweatshops in the South. But it was a -- a lots harder work after organized labor come in. Even though the mills wasn't organized, they still sort of had to meet the standards of the wages they had agreed to pay, you know, and it made it lot harder on the folks that was working to meet the production and things that they -- then they could still let you go then for not making production. But then later years they'd put you on trial, what they 00:14:00called trial periods. And after you passed that trial period, they couldn't fire you for things like that. But up till that trial period, they could. But -- so that's -- that'as one of the things that organized labor brought in that we didn't have before here. And, ah, for that purpose, I say -- I told the lady out there before, it was a great thing and it served its purpose. It's outgrowed its purpose, I think, now. I think it's outgrowed itself. It's got too much power, got too much, ah, leadership in there that's not right, like we said to start with, not the right kind of leadership. And I think that's the main thing that's the matter with the union at this particular time.

CREW: Let's pause just a moment.

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JUDITH HELFAND: Arthur, I'm going to ask you a question but look at George when you answer. Okay?

DUNCAN: Okay.

HELFAND: Alright. Could you describe to me -- A number of people have told me that a lot of workers were afraid of their bosses.

DUNCAN: Well, they were, especially in the spinning room. They had a man up there, that I know you heard some of 'em mention, by the name of Claude Boggs. And he was terrible to work for. And he was -- he would cause people to quit 00:15:00and everything, but some of the other (inaudible) bosses got to where they wouldn't hire somebody that had -- somebody working in his department because they'd lose their good help -- if, you know, they left on account of him, then they'd lose their good help. But up till that time, they tried to split the families up, put one in different departments, so if a family moved, nobody wouldn't be hurt so much. But he was the cause of 'em -- that boss was the cause of 'em being where they had to sort of bunch 'em up and put 'em in the same family, because they didn't want to lose the family.

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DUNCAN: Well, yeah, I think so. I think that if we talking about people being afraid to join the union, I think that that was the biggest reason why that everybody didn't join, because they was a-scared of losing their job because they had let 'em know that they wasn't going to organize, they wasn't going to work under no -- nobody was going to tell them what they could do with their own -- with their property, which sounds reasonable to a lot of people, you know. 00:16:00But, still, that -- they were scared -- well -- remember, my family, like I was -- I was called a sympathizer. Any member of my family joined the union, they're going to get shut of all of us. And so they done it, a lot of it, secretly. A lot of 'em that joined it, joined it secretly because to keep the bossman from knowing it, because they didn't want their family -- and if they didn't mind losing their job theyself, they didn't want to cause their family to lose their job -- or members of their family to lose their job. So that's -- they were just scared to join the union on them purposes.

STONEY: How would the boss find out if they were a member of a union?

DUNCAN: Well, like I told -- said one time before, I don't -- how the bosses found out a member had joined, they had what we called spies that joined the union hisself and participated in everything they done, went to ever meeting and everything else, and then go back and tell the boss what went on and how it happened and everything. So the un-- no way you could keep anything from 'em. And, in the meantime, at that mill they organized them a company's union. And, ah, they got a good bit of members on it, but it never did go nowhere because 00:17:00people'd say, "Well, if I can't join the one I want, I won't join no one at all," you know. So that didn't participate either.

STONEY: Now the union was saying that Roosevelt said you had the right to join a union.

DUNCAN: Yeah.

STONEY: Could you repeat what I just said and then say whether you believed it or not.

DUNCAN: Well, you know, it was talked about and everybody knowed it that Roosevelt said you had a right to join the union. But what he actually said everybody's supposed to be equally treated and, ah, not be discriminated against for what they done. And that the main things of it and which they did -- when you think about the treatment before and after, that was -- joining the union would have come under them heads. So a lot of folks got to thinking, "Well, he just said it's all right to join the union." But he didn't. He said it was all right for you to band together, you know, to try to make better conditions and one thing and another, but he didn't actually participate with the union.

STONEY: Now when the strike was called off, Roosevelt asked Gorman to call it off.

DUNCAN: Yeah.

STONEY: He said that -- that the textile manufacturers had promised they wouldn't discriminate against people.

DUNCAN: Yeah. Yeah.

STONEY: Do you remember that and talk about that.

DUNCAN: Well, whenever the strike was called off, when Gorman called it off, it was on the strength of the word of the President saying that the companies could not, had agreed not to discriminate on wages or anything else and not try to hold anybody out of a job, but that was more words than it was deeds, more said it rather than a-done it, because they still kept holding people out of their jobs. And I don't know if the company as a whole done it or if they just had their representatives that done it. I wouldn't say. I wouldn't put the whole company (inaudible), but the representatives might have been the cause of it, which still had the power to tell people that they could work or not could work. So actually I think maybe that was the bottom line of it.

STONEY: Did you know that Roosevelt and the big textile "barons", as they called them, was hob-nobbing together?

DUNCAN: Well, no, I didn't know that Roosevelt and they were hob-nobbing together. I did know that they come to some agreement because they agreed on the 30 -- 30 cents an hour wages. He got 'em banded together and got 'em to talk on that, but I didn't know what, other than talks was, that he just got them to agree on certain things. Now how the other talks, rest of the talks with Roosevelt, went, I don't know.

STONEY: The reason I'm asking that is because Warm Springs wasn't very far from where you lived.

DUNCAN: No. (inaudible)

STONEY: And Donald Comer and the Callaways and all that had places there and they helped Roosevelt build the Little White House. I just wonder if you were aware of all that.

DUNCAN: Yeah, I knowed that when the Roosevelt first come to Warm Springs, ah, I think Roosevelt was done elected President before he ever bought that Warm 00:20:00Springs out down there. He went down there on a visit or something or other and bathed in them warm springs and it done him so much good till he bought and put it into a place, you know, where people could go and bathe. And they still -- it's still -- of course, they don't bathe in there, but they still have places where you can go and be, you know, and have rehabilitation and everything. And it's still a wonderful place. But now, as I said, that's another project was done with Roosevelt's personal money. It wasn't done with the government's money.

HELFAND: Arthur, could you describe the organizing process? You know, when the people decided to start the union. And could you tell if you remember when that happened? Was it a good many months before the strike?

DUNCAN: Oh, yeah, yeah. It was a good many months. Now let me see. That -- ah, right he was President, they begin to --

STONEY: Start over an say right after Roosevelt--

DUNCAN: Right after Roosevelt was inaugurated, which at that time was on March 00:21:00the 20th, and so he was elected in 19-and-32 and he taken office in 19-and-33, March of 1933. Well, time July come they was already -- the company was already a-getting scared about the union because it was being talked and everything, and they give a big barbecue at East Newnan and give a big speech down there warning people about joining the union, telling 'em they wasn't going to participate in it and like that. So all the organization had to be done mostly in secret. It had to be come to your house and like it was a visitor or something. And most of the organization was done in secret of the union, rather than just openly being -- asking for membership.

HELFAND: Could you describe -- did someone come to your house? Could you describe how you were approached and how you joined?

DUNCAN: Well, actually didn't anybody come to my house directly. I went on the friends of -- on the words of some of the people that were joining. And 00:22:00actually I didn't even go to the meeting. They just let me sign a card and I was all joined up with organized labor. And at that -- you know, they had to pay dues then, but they give us free dues till we got organized, which was -- I don't know -- two or three years. I don't remember how long we didn't have to pay any dues. But they would come from -- they'd come to the meetings from Atlanta and other places and give the speeches, but, as I said, I didn't pretend the meet -- didn't attend the meetings and so I couldn't tell you actually what went on.

STONEY: Then you never paid dues?

DUNCAN: Never paid dues, no.

STONEY: Could you talk about -- just start over and tell that whole story and say that you never paid dues.

DUNCAN: Okay. Now as far as -- you know, you had to pay dues back in them -- to belong to the union back in them days, but they give us free dues and for a certain length of time, and which I never had to pay any dues at all to be a member of the organized labor. So I went on for -- I was in there about -- I guess about two years, but I never did have to pay any dues.

STONEY: Did you pay the dollar to join?

DUNCAN: No, I didn't even have (inaudible). No fee to join the union at that time either, because it's sort of like a charter member. They was trying to get as many members as they could and they was -- they's scared money would hold members back and they let 'em join free and have a certain amount of time free dues.

STONEY: Now we've heard a lot of talk about the union coming into Hogansville or coming into a place and taking people's money and then leaving and they never heard from 'em again.

DUNCAN: I -- far as the union coming in and taking people's money and leaving again, I never heard -- I never saw anything of that. They never -- they never come around me, but now they generally, on the union, they went till they found they couldn't get a vote or found out that the folks wouldn't vote for it before they left. But now far as the money part and them taking money, I couldn't confirm that. (telephone) I thought I had that off'n the hook.

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DUNCAN: Okay. At the time that they was organizing the union in East Newnan Mill, they give us free dues and free membership to go into it to try to entice people to join, because it was hard times and everthing and peo-- what they was trying to do is get as many members as they could. And said, "We won't charge you any dues and we won't charge you any membership to join until you -- until we get organized. And then we'll go to charging dues after we get organized." But they never did get enough organized that they ever started paying dues, as I know of, not in East Newnan.

STONEY: Now when and how was the factory closed?

DUNCAN: Well, I don't remember. It'as sometime in early '35. I don't just remember when -- September '35, whenever the strike was coming, wasn't it?

STONEY: No. It was September '34.

DUNCAN: '34, '34.

HELFAND: I would like to know how they knew about the general strike, how that was told in the community?

STONEY: Okay. I see what you mean. What she wanted to know is when Gorman called the national strike, could you talk about how that news got to you and all of that?

DUNCAN: Well, whenever the Gorman called the national strike, they got in with the leadership and then they called a meeting and voted. Each local could vote to strike or not to strike, and that at East Newnan did vote to strike. And most of 'em here in the South did. So you had a say in it even then, that you could vote on it, but they'd come through the leadership and they just called a meeting and told 'em. And all that wasn't meeting, they got it by word of mouth, the grapevine, in other words, that they was going to call the strike.

STONEY: Now did you get it from the newspapers or on the radio, or what?

DUNCAN: You mean -- no. I think that come by -- probably by telephone to 'em. 00:26:00I think they called 'em from headquarters -- wherever the headquarters was at to each local, they called 'em on the telephone and let 'em know -- called the leaders of each one of 'em and let 'em know when and what time they was striking and everything about it.

HELFAND: How did the textile workers, the rank and file people -- how did they find out about the strike?

DUNCAN: Well, it's like I said. The ones that was belong to the union, they called that special meeting and had 'em to come and they voted on it, and they didn't know anything on what they was going to the meeting for and they got there and they voted to strike or not to strike.

HELFAND: Did you go to that meeting?

DUNCAN: No, I didn't.

STONEY: Now we know that the East Newnan Mills got closed early in September.

DUNCAN: Yeah.

STONEY: Could you talk about the closing of the mills, how they got closed and (inaudible)?

DUNCAN: That was what we called a wildcat strike. Wasn't it at East Newnan they had a wildcat strike? And what they done, the union -- some of the union 00:27:00head members and things went and put extra locks on the mill gate and refused to let anybody in. They put pickets at each gate and refused to let anybody in. And that was an illegal strike. And they called 'em and told 'em it was a illegal strike, but the man down here said, "Well, we done got 'em out here and got the campfires fired." Said, "Well, go ahead and do the best you can then." So actually it wasn't -- it was an authorized strike, but it was the one -- it broke the back of the union around Newnan. And so, you see, they done it theirself actually.

STONEY: Could you tell us now about the troops coming?

DUNCAN: Well, about the only thing I know about the troops a-coming is that they was having the flying squads, what we called "flying squads" then, and that was in whenever the main strike was on. And they would go from mill to mill and shut 'em down. In other words, if it wasn't enough a place in the mill, they'd come from another mill and shut 'em down. And that's where the -- the government got the -- I mean the State of Georgia got the idea that they could 00:28:00-- they wasn't allowed to go shut some of the mills down. That's how they got the authority to come and arrest 'em and, you know, carry 'em to Atlanta and things, because they was coming from other mills and shutting things down just like somebody coming to your house and tell you, you can't go in your house.

STONEY: Did you see those troops?

DUNCAN: No, I didn't see the troops whenever they come. In other words, I said I just stayed away from it. I didn't see it. Now my brother did. My brother was there whenever they arrested 'em, but they didn't arrest him because he was at his own mill, you know. So they didn't arrest him or carry him in, but he did see 'em. But I didn't see 'em.

HELFAND: So, Arthur, what were you doing those two weeks once the national strike started? Describe what was going on in the mill village.

DUNCAN: Well, it was just like I said. It'as more or a rumor and talk about people, talking one way or the other, talking about the strike. And whenever they rumors was going around, some of 'em would, say, be for it and some of 'em 00:29:00would be against it and somebody wants to come out and try to persuade you one way and somebody another one. And so just -- I don't know -- just a turmoil, what I would call it, before -- before the strike ever was called. And it was just people trying to get you to go one way or the other.

HELFAND: And once the strike was called, talk about the atmosphere in the mill village and what was happening day by day once the strike was called in September.

DUNCAN: Yeah. It was called -- well, when the strike was called in September, that really put it into turmoil. That put even people that lived in the same house against one another. So you did -- in other words, you were sort of scared to say anything to anybody because you didn't know -- you didn't want to cause no enemies and things. So just to -- I don't know -- just a turmoil. It was something that was just a time of unrest, time that people was one way and another and just unrest. That's all I can say -- about the biggest thing I can say about it.