JUDITH HELFAND: So your son Harold called.
(inaudible background conversation)
M1: That's a wonderful idea.
JAMIE STONEY: (inaudible) take a look at this shot.
GEORGE STONEY: What?
M1: (inaudible) Yeah it's nice.
(inaudible background conversation)
[break in video]
M1: Yeah you're ready to roll.
JAMIE STONEY: Rolling.
GEORGE STONEY: Alright just tell us when you started working in the cotton mill
and why.F1: Well I was (inaudible) and I went to work when I was 12 years old. The
school superintendent give me a letter to go to work and I worked in the mill then from the time I was 12 to 52. At the Eagle and Phenix Mill, I quit, after I 00:01:00had a stroke. I had a stroke in '55 and I went back to work and then I quit the work.GEORGE STONEY: Well back to--back when you were 12, tell us the year that was
and then what it was like.F1: Well I can't remember so much about it. But they might we had good times,
better than we do now. Course they were hard, but they were--you know just used to them and it was better.GEORGE STONEY: What did you do?
F1: Spin. (inaudible) And that's where I went to work at.
GEORGE STONEY: How much did you make?
00:02:00F1: Oh about $5.00 a week. We didn't make much then to start with. I think the
head ones made about $9.00. We were just learning we made about $5.00.GEORGE STONEY: How many hours did you work?
F1: Uh we worked--
GEORGE STONEY: Just tell us when you stated--when did you go in during the day
and when did you go home.F1: We went to work about 5 o'clock and worked till 5. For that much a week.
GEORGE STONEY: And could you tell us if you have any memories of that time?
F1: Oh yeah, I have lots of memories. We just played as much as we worked and I
00:03:00would have a good time.GEORGE STONEY: You were saying and I want you to repeat this, you were saying
that the children played as much as worked in the mills.F1: Yeah, they did, they played about as much as they worked. I reckon that's
the reason we didn't make much.GEORGE STONEY: Did any of the children get hurt in the mills?
F1: No, not that I know of. Not where I worked at.
GEORGE STONEY: Tell us about the food at the time.
F1: Oh we had plenty to eat. (Inaudible), biscuits and cornbread, and all kind
of vegetables, and eggs and all like that.GEORGE STONEY: Where did you buy your stuff?
00:04:00F1: From the grocery store. I don't remember the name of the grocery store we
traded at. I think it was the Snyder's at Griffin, Snyder's Grocery.GEORGE STONEY: Did you have a company store?
F1: Uh, no, no, we traded with this man and he was (inaudible) there at the
mill, but he wasn't with the company.GEORGE STONEY: How did you happen to get to Columbus?
F1: Oh from uh I was it (inaudible) Georgia and the mill shut down there and my
sister and my aunt, and uh she had a boy, my sister had a boyfriend and he walked to Griffin, and got a job. And they brought a truck back after us. And we was living up there in the mills that shut down and nobody was working. And 00:05:00that's the way we got to Columbus.GEORGE STONEY: Tell us about then--did you marry here?
F1: Oh yeah. Me and Reuben married here and we live, I think we lived about six
years after we married. We had two boys and two girls. Of course the last girl wasn't born then. And uh he worked over at Swift, you know, a long time. And he was a doffer. And that's about all I can remember. 00:06:00GEORGE STONEY: Do you remember, was he a member of the union?
F1: Yeah he was a member of the union.
GEORGE STONEY: Tell us about that, when did he join the union?
F1: I don't know about that. He must have been in the union before me and him
married. Cause I don't know about that.GEORGE STONEY: Did you ever join the union?
F1: No never did, I never was asked to join no union.
GEORGE STONEY: Do you know why not?
F1: No, sure don't. They never had it at the Bradley Mill or the Eagle and
Pheneix, when I was there. Never asked to join no union.M1: Now Rex, George?
GEORGE STONEY: Yeah
M1: Uh, don't play with your collar right there it's where the microphone is.
GEORGE STONEY: Thank you.
M1: Thank you.
GEORGE STONEY: Uh Rex, do you want to tell us about your father?
00:07:00REX SANDERS: Well, I was only 2 years old when he was killed. Like I've told
you before I can almost remember him. And my grandmother told me after he was shot, that I would see a crowd I'd look for him. And I guess the reason for that was that I was a baby and he probably took up more time with me than he did with the others, that the natural, you know. And I've always I can just about remember him but not quite.GEORGE STONEY: Okay, now I want to as though the audience knows nothing about
this at all, just tell the whole incident that happened.REX SANDERS: Well he was at home, they was having--
GEORGE STONEY: Say my father was at home.
REX: My father was at--
GEORGE STONEY: Give his name.
REX SANDERS: My father Reuben Sanders was at home, they were having a labor
dispute in the cotton mill, which was in the same neighborhood that he lived in. But he was not employed at that particular mill, he was employed at Swift Mill, 00:08:00which was several blocks away. And I think the custom there was--F1: I (inaudible).
REX SANDERS: I think the custom was you picketed a mill that you wasn't
employed at, so they couldn't identify you too easy. Because I've talked to people since then that were identified and they lost their jobs. People that had vehicles that hauled pickets around to different mills and when they found out who they were, they lost their jobs. But he was at home and this fellow came by, one of his best friends and told him, said "Let's go down and picket the mill." And he said, "Well I really don't care anything about it." And he said, "Well if you don't you're taking food out of your family's mouth.", or something similar. So he said, "Well I'll go with you." So he went down and joined the pickets. And my mother, she was I guess 8 months pregnant and she got worried about him and I think she was gonna use me as a pretense to get me out of the picket lines. So she grabbed me and started down there towards him, and she seen him in the picket line, and he seen her, and he 00:09:00threw up his hand to wave at her, and he turned the corner. She heard 3 shots and everybody, the crowd panicked, I guess there was screaming and hollering. And a friend of hers, well an acquaintance of hers said that "They shot [Boog?] and Sanders." That was my Dad's nickname. And my mother said, "Where are they taking him?" And this woman said, "They're taking him home." But in fact they were taking him to the old medical center. So she started home and they took him to the hospital and he lived about 6 hours after he was shot. And uh, the paper, the police, there was no police there until after the indecent and the police really came to protect the mill. Because the crowd was really getting ready to you know destroy something. Then after- you know they had a real big funeral. 00:10:00GEORGE STONEY: Tell us about the funeral.
REX SANDERS: Well, uh it was probably the biggest funeral Columbus has ever had.
It wasn't reported that I know of but the people left the old union hall, textile hall, and they were already at Riverdale Cemetery when a lot of them were still leaving getting in line to go. And they had everyone from Ku Klux to Woodman of the World in it. It was just labor was using that to try and reinforce their position. And but when they made the police report was that he jumped on the running board of a vehicle to prevent from going into the mill yard. As far as I can remember there was never a fence around that mill. No gate. And I think that they just fabricated that story because he was shot on public property from a person who was on private property. And but back then the mills had all the money they got by with it. And I think the guy that shot my 00:11:00dad, since there were three shots fired. It's never clear to me if he fired all three or somebody else. But I think the man was shooting in the air because he showed--when I was growing up he tried to establish a meeting with my grandmother, I don't know if he ever tried to contact my mother or not. But they tried to set up a meeting and my grandmother could not even stand to look at the man. But he was trying to tell her he was sorry, but he couldn't undo what he had did. But she wouldn't, she wouldn't even talk to him about it.GEORGE STONEY: Now what was that man's name and what connection did he have
with the mill?REX SANDERS: I don't, I don't --
F1: (inaudible) Beasley was the name.
REX SANDERS: That's right Beasley that what my grandmother, I remember now. I
guess he was hired as security maybe, was he security with the mill or did he work?F1: No I (inaudible) worked there.
REX SANDERS: Well I always thought he was security hired, but I guess he was working--
F1: No
00:12:00REX SANDERS: inside there. But the woman that came by to pick up my grandmother
to take her to meet this Beasley, her name was Waller. But she was working at the mill at that time. And they was I think that he, I really don't think he intended to shoot anybody, just to make the crowd disperse. You know it's hard to say.GEORGE STONEY: Well now you remember the funeral, don't you?
F1: A little bit of it.
GEORGE STONEY: Could you describe the funeral?
F1: Well all I can remember, see I had them kids to look after, and there was Ku
Klux stood right up beside of me, and that's all I can remember. Cause I wasn't you know, real at myself.REX SANDERS: Well I think you ought to make it plain that Reuben wasn't a
member of the Ku Klux.F1: No, no, he wasn't.
REX SANDERS: I think that hey just tried to move in to you know--
F1: They looked like they was protecting me and the kids is what they were doing.
00:13:00REX SANDERS: If they'd been men they didn't need a sheet over their head to
protect anybody.F1: Well, but they was alright. I'll always believe in them.
REX SANDERS: Pfft.
GEORGE STONEY: Um, do you remember anything about this?
F2: No I don't remember anything about it.
GEORGE STONEY: How old were you at the time?
F2: I was 3. I just remember him in his coffin and trying to get up and play
with me, and that's all I remember.REX SANDERS: Well now see you remember.
F2: That's all I remember.
GEORGE STONEY: Do you remember--how did you feel growing up with that?
F2: Well, I just missed him a lot and that's about all.
GEORGE STONEY: Did people around regard you differently because of your
father's, because everybody must have known this story.REX SANDERS: Well, well in the neighborhood, they uh, they did. It was always
somebody coming up and saying, well actually they were shooting at me instead of 00:14:00your dad. Now I got to where, you know. "I wished they would have hit you. You since you felt like they were shooting at you they should've of hit you."GEORGE STONEY: Now did you feel proud of your father? Or how did the atmosphere
make you feel?REX SANDERS: I didn't--- What I was always proud of my father, but I felt uh,
you know it's just an empty feeling you didn't have, you really didn't have no one to back you up. When you was growing up you had to more or less take care of yourself because you didn't have that authority figure there to really crack down. See my grandmother mostly raised me and I almost did what I wanted. I didn't really have nobody to crack down so, uh, it's just an empty feeling really.GEORGE STONEY: What I was wondering about is some children of war heroes for
example, they were kind of bolstered up by the fact that everyone was proud of 00:15:00their father. Was there anything like that around here?REX SANDERS: No. It was just people that knew him that was sorry that he got
shot. That liked him, but nobody considered him a hero of the labor movement. Cause as far as I could tell the labor movement never really got off the ground. But I think in way it might have helped because the cotton mills had to improve conditions for the fear of the union. They have break rooms where you can actually sit down. Back when he was working they pushed a cart they called the dope wagon through the mills and they called it dope cause Coca-Cola at that time actually had coke in it. And you took a break at your machine and you went to the bathroom when your machine allowed you to. And now you can go sit down in the mills you still have to operate you equipment, you don't cut anything off 00:16:00to take a break, it runs for the shift.GEORGE STONEY: Well now you have some pretty strong feelings about this town and
unions could you talk about that?REX SANDERS: Well at one time it was a pretty good union town, but I think he
chamber of commerce infiltrated the unions and was able to keep the men out of work that were wrong union men and were able to bust the unions in the '70s.GEORGE STONEY: Jamie go down on the newspaper, and I want you to say that this
is a newspaper that came out about a week after your father was --REX SANDERS: Yeah --
GEORGE STONEY: Okay, run across that and you start saying that and then open it
up and show us the other side. Okay?REX SANDERS: What?
GEORGE STONEY: Okay let's try this.
JAMIE STONEY: (Inaudible) okay.
REX SANDERS: What do want to -- open it up to the picture section?
GEORGE STONEY: That's right. Yeah.
00:17:00REX SANDERS: Alright. This is a newspaper that came out about a week after my
father was shot, it tell you about how many people --GEORGE STONEY: Let's do that again. Cause you moved it a little too fast.
I'm sorry this is a ticklish thing.REX SANDERS: Okay.
GEORGE STONEY: If you don't mind.
JAMIE STONEY: Turn it a bit clockwise.
F2: Turn it back.
GEORGE STONEY: Sorry to do this to you. But its gonna work, it gonna work very
well if we get it right.JAMIE STONEY: Okay dad, why don't you watch the monitor and tell him.
GEORGE STONEY: When I do this you can lean forward and turn it. Okay? Start
talking now.REX SANDERS: This is a newspaper that came out about a week after my father was
shot, it tells how many members were in the textile union, and it lists all the officers of the textile union. And this is a picture of my mother and me and my sister, my other sister wasn't born yet. This is my grandparents here and the article goes on to state that he was the sole supporter for all these people. 00:18:00And, uh they tried to raise money for the family. But it wasn't too successful. And they had several memorial services, but after that it just more or less dissipated. But he was the sole support, but as you can see by these ads there was a lot of union support from a lot of different merchants in Columbus, especially around the mill for people. Even Coca-Cola was for the union then. And Hardaway Contracting Company, which is a worldwide company, until they broke up here recently. And then Nehi which is the parent company of RC Cola which is nationwide, this is a sympathy to family of William Rueben Sanders. So at one 00:19:00time I guess they was trying to get something going but it, but I think, as I was talking to you a while ago, I think the war kinda of took the edge off of that. There wasn't no pressure then. The contractors had, the textile contractors had to more or less go with the union then. The after the war conditions got better. Because other jobs opened up after the – and they don't have the built in labor supply they once had. But since everything is going foreign they don't need them. This past week I read in the paper where West Point Pepperell laid off 1600 people that day. Just came out on the floor and said you're terminated now and no notice. That might make them stop and think they might unionize a little bit. But see I thought they had a law when you was a, had so many employees you had to give a 30 day notice. But the paper said it was effective immediately. 00:20:00JAMIE STONEY: That's only if they close the entire plant.
REX SANDERS: Oh well --
JAMIE STONEY: They have to give you two weeks.
REX SANDERS: Well they got rid of I don't know how many. See what they call
the valley up here, it's just one cotton mill right after another, and those people up there worship the cotton mill owners. When Farley was the guy I was trying to think of when I was talking to Judy, when he tried -- when he took over West Point Pepperell, those people up there actually had a pep rally for Mr. Joe and the owners just like they were some kind of local hero. And when Joe got the money he wanted, he got a golden parachute, he just bailed out, you know. And now Farley can't even complete his deal. Don't have enough money, just sort of like Donald Trump, he over extend himself.JAMIE STONEY: Do you think it made a difference when people were drafted in
World War II, saw there was something other than the mill?REX SANDERS: Well uh --
JAMIE STONEY: Cause we've heard a lot of people say, well after the war I
didn't want to go back to the mill. 00:21:00REX SANDERS: Well they wanted a better life, they seen that well they seen that
they went off and fought the war for the rich man, the owners, you know they owners sons didn't go to war. They got deferments, in fact there is a local millionaire, his sons went to work as plumbers. That was priority job. Alright the other guy's son went over there and got killed. Got blown away, and those people just simply when they came back were just tired of that and that's really when to automoblie workers got their big boost right after the war, because they, they really beat the hell out of them. Henry Ford would invite them to his plant and then have the thugs beat 'em up, the organizers. They still got a propaganda machine going that said the reason our cars are worthless is on account of the workers. But the workers do not design anything, they merely put together what they are handed, and they, they can't stop it. 00:22:00GEORGE STONEY: Let's talk a little bit about Columbus. This is pretty much an
anti-union town. Could you describe it as that and why?REX SANDERS: Well there is no major, until recently-
GEORGE STONEY: Start with this is Columbus.
REX SANDERS: Columbus until recently had no major manufactures outside the
textile our biggest employers were the civil service at Fort Benning and the textile mills. Now when these other manufactures move in here like Pratt Whitney or somebody else, they had had they had already dealt with the union. They knew what it took to keep people satisfied and happy and treat them decent and therefore they didn't want a union. There's no point in having a union if you're getting everything you want. Cause a lot of unions have a tendency if someone gets in like Jimmy Hoffa, then you need to get him out. But when they move in they've already had experience, that's the reason they come south. 00:23:00They say, "We're not gonna make this mistake, we're not gonna mistreat these people we're gonna treat them decent. They gonna have all the benefits they want.", and they did. They, they have no reason to have a union. Unless it slips back to like it was in those days there. And like it was in Newnan, when they put those women and girls and men behind barbed wire because they objected to conditions.GEORGE STONEY: Now back to you ma'am. When -- talk
about the union and your husband. Did, uh, did you know anything about what he was doing at --F1: No I really didn't save when he'd go to the union meetings. I knew
he'd gone but he never said what happened while he was there. He just never talk about it. 00:24:00GEORGE STONEY: Do you think that he was afraid to? Or was it secret?
F1: Well he didn't say much about it, he didn't know about it. I mean he
(inaudible) it was secret, he just didn't advertise it, you know just kept to himself.GEORGE STONEY: Do you think that that was out of fear?
F1: No I don't think so. He wasn't that kind to be afraid of anything.
GEORGE STONEY: What was his background?
F1: Well he was a mighty quiet person, and he come from somewhere down in
Alabama. But he had been there a long time, he was born down there. I never asked much about, you know --GEORGE STONEY: Did he come out of a cotton mill family?
00:25:00F1: Oh no he was, his daddy I think had a farm down there and his mother, but
they come up here and went to work. And, uh, yeah that's all I know about him.GEORGE STONEY: You sir.
M1: Yes?
GEORGE STONEY: What do you remember about your father?
M1: I don't remember too much about him, I remember little things about him.
But I, I remember going down the road with her and she was toting my brother, and I remember hearing the gun shots and that's about all I remember about it.GEORGE STONEY: And afterwards did you go to the funeral?
M1: Yes.
GEORGE STONEY: Could you describe the funeral?
F1: No he was too small.
REX SANDERS: Let him see if he remembers.
M1: I saw a lot of people there but I can't remember too much about it.
00:26:00GEORGE STONEY: How old were you then?
F1: I think about 5.
M1: 5.
GEORGE STONEY: Well my mother died when I was not quite 5 and I can remember the
funeral fairly clearly, so perhaps you could, just think, describe it.M1: I just remember there was a lot of people there and somebody was marching,
there was a whole lot of cars going real slow. And that's about all I can remember.GEORGE STONEY: Afterwards, did people talk to you about?
M1: No.
GEORGE STONEY: Okay, uh, Rex is there anything else that we should know about
your father and the incident? 00:27:00REX SANDERS: That's the only thing I know. He was just shot and they covered
it up. It was just --GEORGE STONEY: Why do you think they covered it up?
REX SANDERS: Well I guess it would have put the mill in a bad position, uh as
far as anybody suing them but, back in those days people really didn't know their legal rights on anything. So that's the only thing that I can think of.GEORGE STONEY: Well now in the accounts I've read they didn't identify the
man who was accused of the shooting, of being a security guard.REX SANDERS: Well, that was, that was just my thought. That he was hired as
security. Sort of like the sheriff in Macon deputizing citizens, that the mill just hired him to be security there which in fact they may have. Its hard to imagine a man taking it on his self to start shooting people to protect somebody else's property. I think that one way or the other he was hired or paid off or 00:28:00given a life time job at the mill or something like that. But I'd always thought he was hired by the mill as security.GEORGE STONEY: Is it possible that he and you father had any falling out?
Because that was hinted at in one of the accounts.REX SANDERS: Uh, I was given the impression the only time I ever seen him, that
he was possibly acquainted with my father, but he showed so much remorse that I don't think there was any hard feelings there. I don't think actually he was shooting. I've had so many people tell me that he wasn't--that they was the one being shot at, they was apparently doing something, and he was just walking along. See it wasn't even planned for him to go there, in his mind you know. It was just a spur of the moment thing, so I don't --I've never heard anyone 00:29:00say it was anything personal. But I just had an impression that he showed so much remorse that he knew my dad personally. Or if he was an enemy he wouldn't have showed that kind of remorse. As far as I know I never had anybody say my dad had hard words with anybody really. That everybody down there was real friendly.GEORGE STONEY: Okay.