Fred Turner Interview 1

 TONE

GEORGE STONEY: I bet you are.

JAMIE STONEY: Speed.

GEORGE STONEY Okay. I'm reading from "The Knoxville Journal". Do you remember "The Knoxville Journal"? How did it regard labor?

FRED TURNER: Well, I don't remember just exactly how they did regard the "New Sentinel", but the Journal put out a lot of writing on it. They would be for the strikers and then they'd be for the company. They had to work both ways 'cause they (inaudible) and that's the way they got -- sold their papers.

GEORGE STONEY: Now here's a line saying, "Brookside, Cherokee Ignore Strike. Unions vote to walk out here today, but both plants say they will be open as usual this morning." What does that remind you of?

TURNER: Well, that reminds me that they did open for people. Just like if you was working, they opened their doors and their gates for people to go in there. 00:01:00And they's some went in and they's a lot stayed out. And as the strike went on, they would go at different times -- one here and one there would go in and go in and a lot of 'em would go in we didn't think would go. And it caused hard feelings among the people, because your friends and things -- of course, that was their privilege. You got to use your own judgment. One person couldn't tell everybody what they should do. If they did, they wouldn't need but one person.

GEORGE STONEY: Did you ever shut it down completely?

TURNER: Never did. They finally shut down. At the time they shut it down on account of they didn't have enough help to run it. They'd do that in the early -- and then they'd come to our meetings and that's when they'd get everybody kindly desperate and everything, no payday or nothing, and they'd ask to come to 00:02:00their meeting. And they'd, ah, let 'em come. They'd make a big -- it was a con job. And some of us was -- could see through it and some couldn't see. Some people can't see nothing. When you come for a con job, it's too thick.

GEORGE STONEY: Okay. Here's another one. "Cherokee Mills Closed by Strike. No Violence Reported by Officers."

TURNER: Well, I don't know of anybody that got hurt. They had a few fights and things like 'at, but, I mean violence, nobody never did get hurt seriously.

GEORGE STONEY: I'm going to read you the caption on this picture. "Crowds of good-natured pickets are shown patrolling the front of the Cherokee Spinning Mills in the above picture. Policeman Bill Whalen is shown at the extreme left 00:03:00of the picture calmly watching the crowds to see that no violence occurs."

TURNER: Well, Bill Whalen was the policeman. I knowed him very well. And he carried out his duty, what he was supposed to do. And he didn't take sides with neither one. In other words, the law was the law.

GEORGE STONEY: Now it says, "Insert is Foots Weaver and pretty Miss Lucille Thornburgh."

TURNER: Foots Weaver, I know him very well, but Lucille Thornburgh, I remember her name, but that's about all. It's been right close to 60 years since all that happened. And that way, why -- no. It's been 57 years, to be exact, to tell you the truth about it.

GEORGE STONEY: Okay. This up to the September the 15th. "FDR Ready to Go to 00:04:00the Scene of Strikes Riots, if Necessary. Union Asks Support."

TURNER: The union did ask Roosevelt to support, like it said there, and he come out later and made a plea for people to call off the strike and everybody go back to work, that he would settle it January the 1st, 19-and-35, which he never did from that day till this.

GEORGE STONEY: Okay. Now this is the September the 17th. "Two Strikers Die in Alabama War where Leaders Seek in Vain to Find Peace in Textile Strike's Deadline."

TURNER: Well, that kindly upset the whole -- both sides. In Alabama they had it and in South Carolina they had several things like that, but at Cherokee nobody never got hurt seriously that I know of.

GEORGE STONEY: Okay. Now this is September the 23rd on Sunday. "Union Chiefs Claim Great Triumph as Giant Textile Strike Comes to an End." Did you feel it was a triumph?

TURNER: No, I didn't, 'cause it come to an end. That's when Roosevelt was a-pleading to people and them to go back to work. The people went back to work that they wanted to let in the gate.

GEORGE STONEY: Now let me tell you what they claimed. And I'm going to stop after each one and tell what it said. They claimed, the Strike Committee in a later statement asserted, "We have secured these definite things. One, an end to the stretch out."

TURNER: Yeah, that's right. That's one thing we was striking for, a stretch out, 'cause they was stretching out. All the mills, the looms you were running, they were stretching out and add more onto you. And over the period of time, I 00:06:00can go from there up to when I retired what they stretched out to. When I was working, they run 4 to 6 looms. And when I retired in 19--

GEORGE STONEY: Okay hold it, hold.

[break in video]

GEORGE STONEY: The end of the stretch out.

TURNER: All right. The stretch out. When I was working, they ran from 4 to 6 looms. And when I retired in -- when I retired in '76, they was running 50 and 60 looms and they'as running -- well, the C&K loom, they was running from 20 to 30 looms. Then they come out with a shedless loom and they was running anywhere from 30-40. Some of 'em had as many as 60 looms.

GEORGE STONEY: Well now, back in '34 when the strike was called off, did they end the stretch out?

TURNER: Did they end the stretch out? No, they didn't end the stretch out.

GEORGE STONEY: Okay. Next. "An effort to determine hours on the basis of fact."

TURNER: The number of hours based on fact? What do you mean by that now?

GEORGE STONEY: I don't know.

TURNER: Well, I don't know whether a stretch out -- when they stretched you out, see. They cut your wages, but you -- they could work more hours. Before the NRA went in, you could all the hours you wanted to.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, ah --

TURNER: Fifty-five hours was what you supposed to work, but you could work more hours than that. You could work another shift or work Saturday afternoon or anything, run your looms, you got paid by the pick.

GEORGE STONEY: Now the final thing they promised was that people could go back in without danger of losing their jobs if they had been out on strike.

TURNER: That's right. That's right. They promised -- like Roosevelt come out and said everybody go back to work and they promised to put everybody back to work, according to what his statement was. I didn't hear any of 'em say that, but that was his statement. If they'd agree to put everybody back to work, that he would settle it January the 1st, 1935, which he never did. But the people put back to work the ones they wanted to put back to work and the ones that they thought would be -- cause another stir-up of a union or anything like that, they blackballed 'em.

GEORGE STONEY: Okay, uh, okay just hold just a moment.

[break in video]

GEORGE STONEY: This is one final thing. "The Knoxville Journal" seems to have been very anti-communist. They keep talking about, "Knoxville, with even high-class labor, is a bed of communism." Here's another story where they said, "Red Poison Found in City." Were there lots of communists in your union or 00:09:00around during the '34 --

TURNER: Not as I know of. I didn't know of any of 'em.

GEORGE STONEY: Just say "I didn't know of any communists."

TURNER: They was no communists in there and as far as I know about the rat poison, they were a little bit set about that at one time, about people, ah, had their garbage cans and things out, alleys and things like that, about rat poison. They put it out. Now that's the only kind of poison I ever knowed anything about, but various rat poisons, but as far as the communists a-trying to run -- we didn't have none a-trying to get in no union or nothing else, 'cause that's one thing we fought against, was foreigners communism, all that stuff. We didn't want to hire no foreigners, let no foreigners go to work at the mill at all.

GEORGE STONEY: Well, why would the paper be having all the headlines about communists here in Knoxville?

TURNER: Well, ah, I'll tell you this much about it. The one that wrote these things during that, done that thing for their job to get a big something to write about. They didn't do it truthfully and publish it like the truth ought to have been published. They didn't publish it right, 'cause they tried to get in the with strikers and everything and do everything they could against the strikers and say they's going to be ruled by that and why did our government let companies put mills in the foreign countries and the next place. They got mills all over everywhere, 'cause I can tell you how many Burlington's got when I was working. In fact, they tried to get me to go to one of 'em, but I wouldn't do, but to show 'em how to operate machinery and stuff. I said, "They ain't no way you're getting me over there. If you don't want me, they's other mills that's wanting me," 'cause back then I had -- I come here in Knoxville, me and my 00:11:00spouse, offered me $500 a week to come out there and teach -- have a class to teach the people how to operate the machinery, set 'em up and everything. I didn't want to fool with it 'cause I drawed my property sharing out of Burlington and I sold my property, all my property over there and what little money we saved and brought everything to Knoxville and I didn't want the government -- to get into it with the government no way for that much money.

GEORGE STONEY: Well just back then one more time on this business of Knoxville Journal and communism. I just can't figure out why they kept having these headlines about communism in here.

TURNER: Well, they thought they could -- they thought they could publish that and get the poor class of people --

GEORGES TONEY: Uh, uh start -- say publish what?

TURNER: They published this in the paper to get people --

GEORGE STONEY: Sorry we got to say communism cause we don't know what you're talking about.

TURNER: Well, they published this to get the people to think about the 00:12:00communists was coming into this country, which they were coming in in some places, but the textiles, that is, where I was, I didn't know of any. And I knowed a lot of -- Mr. Banar was a German, but the German people is the most mechanical brained people there are in the world, if you'll study the history on that. I can tell you that much, but -- and they can, ah -- and things like that. And we had a man could come in here and operate a -- a plant like he operated it and he kept it on good production and everything, but it'as just like his job prevented to having anything with the union organized. He had to work against it. And he -- he built one of the nicest little German houses right up here right off of Kingston Pike up here.

GEORGE STONEY: Are you saying any offical in the union -- Are you saying that any official in the company had to work against the union?

TURNER: The officials has to work against -- yes, indeed. I'd say that.

GEORGE STONEY: Just say that.

TURNER: I can say that, and say it truthfully, that they worked against it. And if they knowed you had anything to do with a union, they would try to get you job, if they could get it. If you'd go so far, but when you get a group organizing you can't go -- I mean fire ever one of 'em. But one or two start something -- they have fired as much as one or two at a time. I know some officials and they know me. None of 'em are living now. John Keyhole(?) and Frank Keyhole, Mr. Fullmander was all the foremans over the weave room. I worked for Mr. Foreman and John Keyhole and Frank both, and I went to -- Frank 00:14:00left. Lester Deaver -- you don't have his name in there, do you -- he was one of the big officials. He went to, ah -- oh, I can't think of that -- he owned a mill.

GEORGE STONEY: I want you to say, I want you to repeat, just very clearly that there were a lot of supervisors I knew but they had to be against the union to hold their jobs. If that's what you believe.

TURNER: now you want me to start out, you want me to start out how?

GEORGE STONEY: Just saying " Well, uh supervisors"--

TURNER: Well ok. Well, the supervisors in the mill had people over them would talk them in against the union and if anybody tried to organize, if they could pick 'em -- I'm telling you this is the way they operated. If they could pick 'em one at a time and maybe get rid of 'em. But if it come too many of 'em, better not get too many of 'em, they'd get the company involved. But if you let 00:15:00one go, not for union, but for some other reason made up. I'll say it that way. Not if it wasn't truthful what he made up to discharge this person for.

GEORGE STONEY: Were there lots of spies around?

TURNER: Not as I know of, any spies. Not as I know of. They didn't -- I don't think there was any spies on either side.

GEORGE STONEY: Now one final thing. Down in Gadsden, we found that some of the second hands were accused of being very nasty to the women and taking advantage of 'em. Have you ever heard about that in this mill?

TURNER: No, I never heard of this in the Cherokee Mill or the mills that I worked for, other mills. I never did, because in the mill I worked for when I retired, they had the -- the best rules and everything, and was carried out. And if you mistreated anybody or talked nasty, supervisors -- I say 00:16:00"supervisors." Well, they called 'em second hands, but they called theyself supervisors and district managers and this and that and the other, but we used to call 'em just plain old second hands. If they mistreated anybody and it was found out, they were discharged. And Burlington had a rule -- I loved their rules and everything that they had, 'cause you went step by step and you didn't jump the ladder. You went from step to step to get a grievance solved. And somebody -- if you had to go all the way to the top, somebody down the line that didn't give you an answer was gone.

GEORGE STONEY: Good.

TURNER: Now that's the rules and I worked for Burlington in the sample division and I had to carry those rules out and everything. And a lot of rules that 00:17:00Burlington had me to do, I didn't like. Now let me explain this, if you will.

[break in video]

GEORGE STONEY: The blacks, the colored people in the mills way back in the '30s.

TURNER: Well now, I tell you, up here at Cherokee they didn't work too many blacks, but in North Carolina, Kramerton, where I worked, they had a black crew there, they had a black neighborhood that they had especially for the black people. They worked in the mill and they was treated -- everybody was treated alike. They done their jobs and if they went out of the way and got out of line or anything, they was treated just like me or anybody that got out of line. They were discharged, too. We had rules and regulations. They's no fighting. 00:18:00If you ever got in a fight, you lost your job and lost your house, everything.

GEORGE STONEY: Okay good.

TURNER: They didn't ask you no questions if you had a fight. They'd tell ye' they was rules. That's when Kramer owned it. But Burlington was stricter than that.

GEORGE STONEY: Ok.

JUDITH HELFAND: I want to—

[break in the video]

HELFAND: We've been to a lot of other mill villages --in Newnan, Georgia, other places like that -- and we have found that a lot of people have been frightened and are ashamed to talk about the union experience in '34.

TURNER: I ain't ashamed.

HELFAND: To the point where they won't even come out and talk to us.

TURNER: I ain't ashamed of nothing. I talked about it then just like -- I'll give them the credit, the companies. I'll give them the credit the same as I would the union as for as talking to the union. Other words, there's two sides there. You can't go 'cause you want to go the union and listen to everything. They've got rules and regulations and the union is supposed to get together with them and iron those things out, not cause -- and talk against the union and all 00:19:00such as that. If you have a disagreement, you've got leaders for the union that's supposed to iron that out for you. You're not supposed to go to violence or anything like that. I was taught all my life they's two things to never argue about. The first thing is never argue the Bible and the second thing is to never argue politics, and the rest of the things you can argue whatever you want to. The two rules my father had, and he said, "You can get out here and fuss and fight and kill one another, but still the man that's gonna get elected, if he's elected, what can you do about it?" He said, "That violence," said, "you go to the polls and show right there. You can go to the polls and vote for whoever you want to. That's the only thing that you can do that nobody else can't tell you something about. You go behind that curtain and you vote the way you want to."

HELFAND: Are you proud of what you did in 1934?

TURNER: I certainly am. I certainly am. I'm proud -- proud of it and I'm proud of the way I got along in life. I got a wife over there I've had 53 years and I wouldn't give her for anything I've ever seen. She's been a good one. She's stuck here. If it wasn't for her, I wouldn't have nothing. She's a good saver and --

GEORGE STONEY: Could you go back there and say I was proud of what I did in the union in '34.

TURNER: Yeah, I was proud of what I done in the union in '34. I was proud of it, 'cause it meant the poor people would have a chance as long as the union did. And you see how they's still poor people in textiles. They don't make the wages like the other people. The textile company don't pay wages like the other people. The job that I run over there -- I fixed looms for $4.45 an hour back in the -- in the '70s. And I was classed as a skilled laborer. All right. A 00:21:00skilled laborer was making $6.50 to $8.50 an hour, but they wouldn't -- they wouldn't dare -- $4.45 was all the -- I mean that was the head, the main loom fixer. I was among -- I was among as good as it was. A lot of 'em didn't think so, but I was rated. If I didn't, I couldn't have fixed looms as long as I did and run jobs that I run. And I invented a lot of things for Burlington they got the patent. Of course, I was on salary and I couldn't -- I tried to patent one for a lot of thousands of dollars on the(inaudible), the full box loom, but I couldn't do it 'cause I'd done it on their time and everything and they paid me. And John McQueen was head of the (inaudible) people out of Massachusetts, where they make them, (inaudible) people, that's the factory. And he was out of there 00:22:00about and I asked him one day he'd give me a little time talking about the Crump & (inaudible) people and different things. And I asked him one day and showed him this patent I had. I had it on the loom, like in operation. I'd put it on a loom at a certain time and take it off. I wouldn't leave it, 'cause --

[break in video]

M1: Ok this will be room tone for the preceding interview.

M2: Its my turn to say that.

M1: No its my turn.

M2: Ok.

[Silence]

[break in video]

GEORGE STONEY: Ok just clip away.

[Silence]

[Silence]