Neil Joroloman and Highland Reunion Interview

 NEIL JOROLOMAN: I can't see that far away. As I recall, there were very few quarters, three or four maybe, maybe less than three.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, then I think a good way to start is that my father owned a part of the -- my widowed mother -- (inaudible) Okay sir.

JOROLOMAN: My father died and left mother a widow in 1920. Her only income -- means of income were the standard knitting mills, stock which father had owned and went to her of course. So she was very dependent upon that to raise her five children, get them all through school and college. And it was very seldom that 00:01:00the mill failed to pay that quarterly dividend. Very occasionally they would have a miss in the payment of that dividend. I think possibly three quarters are the only ones I can definitely recall as having been absent in mother's income.

GEORGE STONEY: Would you have any idea what percent of the payment -- how much would it pay?

JOROLOMAN: I can't answer that. I don't know.

GEORGE STONEY: Thank you. I know it's hard. We can get that. We're working with an industry historian named --

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JOROLOMAN: Mill gave stock dividends quite often in the early years of its 00:02:00existence. And rather than paying money, they would send another sheaf of certificates to increase from the original 50,000 up to -- I think they had a stock holding of over 2,000,000 not too many years after the beginning of the mill. It increased leaps and bounds. But I can't give you definite figures on that.

GEORGE STONEY: Could you talk about the competition with other places in terms of style and quality of goods? People so often think the southern mills didn't do quality work. Talk about that.

JOROLOMAN: I couldn't. I don't know. I don't know -- I just couldn't answer that. Very seldom it amounted to more than 2% of our production had to be 00:03:00thrown out and sold as irregulars. As to what the other people did, I have no way of knowing their quality.

GEORGE STONEY: Reagan over in Charlotte was saying --

JOROLOMAN: Cherokee Mills is their biggest employer, rather user was Arrow Shirts. They made only shirtings. That was their product, shirtings and handkerchiefs. And the Arrow took a big majority of their production because we had Cherokee stock also as I told you. Same men started that that started the Standard.

GEORGE STONEY: Could you talk about your brands and where they went?

JOROLOMAN: The production of Standard Knitting Mills primarily went to large 00:04:00retail outlets. Their principal business was with Sears and Ward, the catalogue companies. A third largest employer or rather user of our goods was JC Penny though we did also produce goods for the various other companies like Kresge and -- I don't know, you name it. We sent them goods to a certain extent and of course we put their labels in them, not our own brand names of Health Knit or Three Seasons.

GEORGE STONEY: So your brand names were Health Knit and Three Seasons.

JOROLOMAN: Yes.

GEORGE STONEY: Could you say that?

JOROLOMAN: Our brand names were Three Seasons which meant fall, winter, and 00:05:00spring because we didn't make lightweight goods at the beginning of the plant. And later when we did add lightweights, we added the label of Health Knit because we had furnished the goods for the year round use.

GEORGE STONEY: Now a few minutes ago you referred to replacing old machinery with new machinery. Could you talk about that and tell us, if you know, where that old machinery went to?

JOROLOMAN: I mentioned a moment ago that we did occasionally replace outworn machinery and replace it with newer, more speedy, more efficient equipment. And generally speaking, that equipment as far as I know went down to Latin American countries south of us, Mexico or even down further south than that. And of course how they were used there or if they were used there or shipped further to 00:06:00Europe or where, I have no way of knowing. But I do think a lot of our equipment went south of the border.

GEORGE STONEY: Do you think that they were undermining our market when they went down there?

JOROLOMAN: I of course don't know how the new purchases of our old equipment handled their sales or whether they competed with us or not. It's quite possible they tried to. But I just don't have any idea of where their goods went when they made them or even if they used the machinery. They could have sent them to a third party.

GEORGE STONEY: Now how do you feel about the change in the textile industry in the last -- the gradual disappearance of the textile industry? Hold it just a minute. All right sir.

JOROLOMAN: I don't know really whether the textile industry is holding its own with the rest of the world currently or not because I've been out of the business for a good many years and I just don't know how many of the old companies are still in business or whether the trade has now gone to Europe or wherever. It's just something I can't comment on because I don't keep up with it.

GEORGE STONEY: Are you involved in any with preserving the history of the industry?

JOROLOMAN: I have no records of my own where I have attempted to keep up with the industry historically or otherwise. And in fact, I've been out of it so long I just have washed my hands completely. We've had no stock in the 00:08:00industry for a good many years.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, hold it just a minute.

JUDITH HELFAND: And spinners and droppers and people that didn't go to university and had no connection to management or stock or high level decisions of any sort. And one of the things that they've been talking about, just like yourself --

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JOROLOMAN: -- many years and Jim Gaddis was general manager, vice president under Hal. Mister Mebane married Mr. McMillan's sister, one of his -- well I guess his only sister. That's how he happened to come into the mill. And he came in as the director of Cherokee, Mr. Mebane's father, Hal's father was the operator of Cherokee for his first years in Knoxville.

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HELFAND: -- Cherokee was going to do for them the standard couldn't be really helpful.

JOROLOMAN: Well you want to start again?

GEORGE STONEY: Ready? OK, yes sir.

JOROLOMAN: A few years after the Standard Knitting Mill started, it was expanding and growing and making money. And the same group of men who had started it were still the owners figured that possibly a weaving mill in the south would also be appropriate for Knoxville. And so they got together and started up the Cherokee Textile Mills which made woven goods, primarily shirtings and handkerchiefs, multicolored yarns which they dyed themselves. And the large consumer of those goods at Cherokee from the beginning right on 00:10:00through was the Arrow Shirt Company. Most of their goods came from Cherokee for quite a number of years. I can't give you the exact date that Cherokee started up, but it was several years after the Standard, but by the same gentleman.

GEORGE STONEY: Stop just for a minute. We haven't talked to an employee of Cherokee -- oh yes, yes, one, one who had a high school education. All the others were --

HELFAND: All the others went in fifth grade, most of them left at --

JOROLOMAN: Oh really?

GEORGE STONEY: Yes.

JOROLOMAN: I didn't realize that.

GEORGE STONEY: That was very interesting. By the way, you'd be interested to know that almost everyone we talk with who's worked at Cherokee has bragged about the fact that Arrow Shirts used their products and the fact that they felt they were making quality goods too. And they talked about the colors and how it was woven and all that kind of thing. I've been impressed here with their 00:11:00enthusiasm for the craft. One couple called it that. So it reminded me of the time I was, many years ago, I was making --

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JOROLOMAN: I've got half of dozen Cherokee handkerchiefs in my drawer in here if you'd like one, I'll give it to you. I never use them. They're too colorful.

HELFAND: I was going to ask you something. Can you talk about -- a lot of the employees at Cherokee said that they got the highest wages in town and one of the reasons for that was because that Cherokee didn't want to have a union in there, so they kept up the standards in terms of pay.

JOROLOMAN: Well of course I can't talk of that. I'm not in management. I just can't discuss that. I don't know.

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HELFAND: -- for it in Knoxville, Tennessee. This was --

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JOROLOMAN: -- yeah that's my brother. I didn't realize he had that position. He was, as I say, a Public Utilities Commissioner for the state of Tennessee, railroad and public utilities they called it in those days. Railroad doesn't have much to do with it today. But anyway, I had no idea that he was commissioner on the Labor Relations Board, but apparently so.

GEORGE STONEY: So it's interesting that they would choose a lawyer than who was in management to handle this.

JOROLOMAN: Well my brother Leon was not in management. My father, Leon, was. My 00:13:00brother Leon was just a lawyer. My father was the lawyer for both the Standard the Cherokee Mills. He handled all their legal work. And therefore -- and he was one of the principal owners, and therefore you might say as management, but not my brother. I'm surprised to see Leon's name there, junior, yes. Yes, he died in 1970 I believe.

HELFAND: Well this was dated December 10, 1934 and it was a hearing at which a union representative and the mills had a discussion. It was basically they had grievances against each other because the union felt that there was discrimination against them and about 117 of them weren't reemployed after the strike was called off. So your brother was called in to listen to both sides and make a decision.

JOROLOMAN: I'm surprised.

F1: Are you still shooting?

JOROLOMAN: No, not at the moment.

F1: Well now you mustn't wear him out.

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

HELFAND: We're all done.

F1: He's an old man. (laughter)

GEORGE STONEY: He hasn't given any suggestion of that on camera.

F1: Well how on earth has Leon come into this?

JOROLOMAN: Well I was most surprised to see his signature here on a hearing, public --

F1: Utilities?

JOROLOMAN: Utilities -- no, no, public hearing on the Cherokee Mill versus I don't know who. Anyway, Leon was -- he was also apparently on the Labor Relations board in '34.

F1: Well how does that come into the mill and all of this?

JOROLOMAN: Well just said it was Cherokee Standard -- I mean Cherokee's Textile Mills that he was hearing.

F1: Are you almost finished?

GEORGE STONEY: Yes we are. OK, I think we --

JAMIE STONEY: OK, everybody be real quiet and very still for about 30 seconds. I'll wait until she goes back and closes the door. You rolling?

M1: Yep.

JAMIE STONEY: This is room tone for the interview that was before this.

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JAMIE STONEY: (inaudible) Yeah, I know. I'm rolling. (inaudible) (crosstalk)

HOMER COLEMAN: Well I know that guy. It's been a long, long time. How are you?

FOOTS WEAVER: Been about 59 or 60 years. How you doing?

COLEMAN: Fine, fine. You?

WEAVER: Man, old enough. I was born ugly. I'm having trouble on my moving, staggering.

COLEMAN: Well that happens as we get a little older, you know.

WEAVER: Well it does come on gradually.

COLEMAN: Yeah, that's right.

WEAVER: I got old too quick. Me and my boys was born about 40 years too quick.

COLEMAN: Yeah, that's what I tell George.

WEAVER: Yeah, about 40 years too quick.

COLEMAN: Yeah, he asked me, "Did you tell me you were 60 or 65?" I said, "No, I told you I was 77."

WEAVER: Fifty seven, yeah, well --

COLEMAN: Seventy seven.

WEAVER: Seventy seven. You're 77 years old?

COLEMAN: I sure am.

WEAVER: Well you certainly ought to know, it's your kid. I was born back there with the olden times. I'm 84 years old.

GEORGE STONEY: What do you remember? You haven't seen each other for how long?

WEAVER: Fifty eight years, 58 years.

COLEMAN: It's been many years.

GEORGE STONEY: When was the last time you saw each other?

COLEMAN: I guess it's in the strike.

WEAVER: In '34.

COLEMAN: I guess if you can remember.

WEAVER: You remember when my mother died, she died in '34. She died just right after the strike, right after the nationwide strike. I guess it's still running Bill Bates crazy.

COLEMAN: Yeah, they're still after him I guess.

WEAVER: A big catfish. Austin Jones said Bill caught a fish that long down there and he says the fish is about that long, but the Bill on there is that long.

COLEMAN: That's a shovel bill, wasn't it.

WEAVER: Shovel bill, yeah.

COLEMAN: I guess we got to go up that way, up this one.

WEAVER: Oh. You stay up here, do you?

COLEMAN: You what?

WEAVER: You stay up here do you?

COLEMAN: No, no, I live up off Ridge Highway.

WEAVER: You do?

COLEMAN: Yeah.

WEAVER: Out there close to --

COLEMAN: Ridgedale community.

WEAVER: Ridgedale, yeah. Did you know -- I used to go out there at Ridgedale and put in pumps around there and work on that pump in Ridgedale school. I was trying to do plumbing work back then.

COLEMAN: Like Peasoup Mathis. Do you remember Peasoup?

WEAVER: Yeah, last time I saw Peasoup (inaudible).

COLEMAN: Yeah, he had a shop over there.

WEAVER: Yeah, and Bill did. Bill died with [inaudible].

COLEMAN: Bill Ballard.

WEAVER: Bill Mathis.

JAMIE STONEY: Good morning to you.

F2: Good morning.

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WEAVER: Get it out exactly right, yeah.

F1: Nobody can. All the members have a hard time. Amalgamated.

GEORGE STONEY: Ask him about when the last time they saw -- talk about the last time you saw Lucille.

F1: When was the last time you saw Lucille?

WEAVER: Last time we saw each other? Walking out the gate together on that nationwide strike. Was that the last time?

COLEMAN: Well I really don't know because it seems that I run into her a time or two when her and -- it seemed like the man's name was Cook, was a union man. I forgot what his name was, but he was a tall slim man. It seemed like I'd seen her back then. But I've kept up with her a whole lot because I said her--

GEORGE STONEY: Mention her name.

WEAVER: Well she was out at the labor union and she had that little paper with the labor union, paper, Lucille did. She had that for years and then she travelled a whole lot. And she'd always have something or another good in the 00:21:00paper about the union because she knew the union was down at our category. That's what we was working on at that point in time, job bound in the union. That was a part time job there, but we made it a major outfit there for a good long while.

GEORGE STONEY: Do you remember what she looked like?

WEAVER: Yeah, she was -- she was a beautiful woman. Lucille was a beautiful -- see I'd call her a Burant, and the first time I'd seen her was in the office in the spinning room there. She was a timekeeper there in the spinning room. And I believe it was Cap Arthur -- you've heard of Cap Arthur haven't you?

COLEMAN: He's -- Cap Arthur's from Standard Knitting Mill.

WEAVER: Well Cap went from Cherokee to Standard Knitting Mill.

COLEMAN: Oh that's Bill Oliver.

WEAVER: Well I mean Arthur, Arthur like the president Arthur. You remember -- well you don't remember that far back but you've read about him or know President Arthur. So we called him Cap Arthur. He was Cherokee down there over the spinning outfit there for a good, long while. And then he went up to 00:22:00Standard, Cap Arthur did. And I went out there and worked a couple of weeks and I got sick on that week so I had to quit.

COLEMAN: Well I always called him Bill Oliver because I worked with his daughter, Hellen.

WEAVER: Well this was Arthur.

COLEMAN: Arthur, yep, Bill Arthur.

WEAVER: Yeah, it wasn't Oliver, it was Arthur.

COLEMAN: Bill Arthur, that's right. But I didn't know they ever called him Cap.

WEAVER: Yeah, he was Cap. They called him Cap. I don't know where he picked that name up at, but that's what we all called him. And I went out there at Standard Knitting Mill to get me a job out there. I worked there two weeks and I couldn't stand the bleach.

GEORGE STONEY: Homer, tell him more about what you remember about Lucille?

WEAVER: About Lucille. Well first big contact we come with Lucille was on that nationwide strike there because the first time we come out on a strike was in 1933 on that walk out there, when we walked out there without a union and then 00:23:00we started organizing. We met over on Western Avenue there where there's a furniture store down there on the corner of Western and Arthur Street or some street, something with Western Avenue.

GEORGE STONEY: Arthur, do you remember that?

WEAVER: Well we rented that building there on that hill. Now that first strike, that's when we pulled the first one. That much to pull weaver's strike right there. That's the problem with that strike. That's the one I started, me and Bob Williams. I started him one way and I went the other. And at ten o'clock we had that thing tied tight in the weave room. Do you remember that?

COLEMAN: Bob Williams was the first one to go back in.

WEAVER: Well Bob was the first to go back in on that nationwide strike. Now he didn't go back in on that first strike we pulled, on that twenty cents on the dollar. They'd give us ten cents there and then two weeks they give us another ten cents.

COLEMAN: I remember when they cut 40.

WEAVER: I know I can remember that too. That's what made me mad because I was making fourteen to eighteen dollars a week there at that time.

COLEMAN: Yeah, but that cut me out of a job. They cut 40%, cut the second shift off.

WEAVER: Yeah, well that was a little rough time back there. Everybody has a lot of time built up on them. I stopped there up on the Commerce Avenue and have a pretty good little card game there playing setback with them farmers there. You have a lot of time to do them things, I don't know what we was eating.

COLEMAN: I --

WEAVER: It'd be a little rough. One person said you can't go around at night. Go around and mow my yard for me, could you, I'd go in there and get a stalling and go around on pick it, just put a little salt in it and he said no way.

F1: The last time you two saw each other was on the picket line? What do you remember? What do you remember each other look like?

WEAVER: What?

F1: What did Homer look like? What do you remember about him?

WEAVER: What am I doing what?

F1: What did Homer look like the last time you saw him on the picket line?

WEAVER: Oh down there on the picket line, well they mostly -- everybody was happy down there. It started I cannot be moved. I didn't try to move them either because we was going around and around that mill there and had a pretty good start there on marching around there. And Sally Craw -- did you know her?

COLEMAN: Sally who?

WEAVER: Sally Craw. She's a pretty good singer. They worked down there in the weave room. Sally did and Beacher worked down there, Becher Craw. Did you know Becher?

COLEMAN: Mm-hmm.

WEAVER: Well that was Chad Walker. Now that catawampus sisters.

COLEMAN: Brother-in-law. He was Cass's brother-in-law.

WEAVER: Yeah, it's his brother-in-law, but that was his sister that Becher Craw married. And they worked on Brookside, they started Brookside over there going that way.

F1: Homer, what do you remember about Foots? What did he look like back then?

COLEMAN: I don't.

F1: You can't remember.

COLEMAN: Nu-uh.

F1: Do you remember Lucille?

COLEMAN: I remember -- yeah because I always remember the pretty girls. But back then I was -- I don't know. The best I could remember, I'd go on the picket line when everybody was there then I'd go about my business, try to make some money or whatever I was supposed to do to make a living. But then when the injunction come along, I guess we all decided -- as I was telling Foots, I don't remember going and asking for my job back.

WEAVER: I never did ask for my job back now.

COLEMAN: And they asked me to come back later because I was working for a 00:27:00building contractor and one of the company men asked me if -- they said, "We're going to start up the third and shift and do you want to work." And I said, "Yes." Or did I want my job back. And I said yeah. He said, "Well you and your wife come in Monday night and you'll have your looms back." I said, "OK." So we did. And as far as me and knowing that they didn't have me marked on the list, I didn't know it because as I said, I went on --

F1: You didn't know you were blacklisted?

WEAVER: Well you're reading the paper there and you find out the reason why I was on it that they told you just about the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth right there at that time.

COLEMAN: Do you remember the guy that carried the flag down the sidewalk, the big guy?

WEAVER: Yeah.

COLEMAN: Where was he the next morning?

WEAVER: He wasn't much to look at the next morning. He wasn't very much to look at.

COLEMAN: He went back on his job the next morning.

WEAVER: Well I know that. He went back on the job.

COLEMAN: And as far as I know, he died working there.

WEAVER: Well a lot of them went back and the story of it was old. We just had two more weeks down there, just two more weeks, and everybody come out of there and stay out of there is what they should've done. They wouldn't stick together. They'd just say well they going back. Well one of them is going in and then in the morning it had been two going in. And I got disgusted with that kind of stuff. And I guess -- I didn't want to go back.

COLEMAN: Foots, we had too many farmers working there and we didn't raise our food.

WEAVER: Well I know we had a lot of farmers there.

COLEMAN: And they went back.

WEAVER: Yeah. Well that's exactly --

COLEMAN: Tell me one that didn't go back.

WEAVER: That's what moved in there. You take 2,500 people down there at the Brookside Cotton Mill, they had to come from some place. They had to come off of the farms. And that was the backbone. A guy had five or six kids back then. And he had to make a living and you couldn't sell no farm products so they brought them to town, put the kids in the mill, and they got a job someplace else. They was too old to work anyway. And that's exactly what happened with the people on the farm.

COLEMAN: Well you remember -- do you remember where all those Brookside people got into Cherokee? Was that during our strike?

WEAVER: No, they want experienced people down there at Cherokee and I was one of them that went down there and did work in 19 and 22.

F1: Excuse me a minute Homer. Do you --