Fred Fussel, Doris Shavers, and Clara Haywood Interview

00:00:00

M1: Rolling.

M2: Wait, if we could wait for sound.

M1: Oh, okay I'm sorry.

GEORGE STONEY: It is a sound movie.

FRED FUSSEL: Now Ms. Haywood there's some photographs here that were made back about 1913 by a photographer who came here named Louis Hines. See anybody you recognize here?

CLARA HAYWOOD: No sir, I don't.

FUSSEL: You don't see anybody you recognize?

HAYWOOD: Nobody but them two.

FUSSEL: Who are they?

HAYWOOD: Harvey Haywood and, and uh Guy Haywood.

FUSSEL: Are they relatives of yours?

HAYWOOD: My husband and brother-in-law.

FUSSEL: Which ones your husband?

HAYWOOD: That tallest one.

FUSSEL: Uh-huh. What was he doing in the mill at the time?

HAYWOOD: He was doffer.

00:01:00

FUSSEL: He was a doffer. And what about his brother?

HAYWOOD: He was a doffer, too.

FUSSEL: Uh-huh. Where were you when they were, when this picture was made?

HAYWOOD: I didn't know 'em then.

FUSSEL: Oh you didn't?

HAYWOOD: No, sir.

FUSSEL: So, how long did uh, the Haywood boys hang around the mills? Did they work there all their lives?

HAYWOOD: Practically, yeah.

FUSSEL: Uh-huh. This is uh, pretty remarkable to find a high end photograph and uh, somebody who is kin to the people who are in it who could tell us about it. You remember any particular things that happened that would be interesting for people to know about?

HAYWOOD: No sir I don't. They just worked in the mill.

FUSSEL: Just uh, day in and day out.

HAYWOOD: Day in, day out. Or night. They worked sometimes at night.

FUSSEL: What kind of hours would they be working, during this time?

HAYWOOD: They'd work from 6-6.

FUSSEL: And uh, they had a dinner break?

HAYWOOD: Yeah, they had a half hour.

FUSSEL: How'd they get their dinner?

HAYWOOD: Well, people carried it to 'em or they went home.

00:02:00

FUSSEL: There's some pictures here of uh, young girls who have lunch baskets. Would that be the, kind of the way they got their dinner?

HAYWOOD: That would be it. That would be the way they got their lunch, dinnertime.

FUSSEL: All these, all these children are barefooted but they've all got hats on.

HAYWOOD: Yeah, they wore hats back then.

FUSSEL: Yeah, I guess it was pretty hot, too.

HAYWOOD: Yeah.

FUSSEL: And I see some of the, the boys down here in this picture got bandages on their feet. Uh, what do you reckon happened to them?

HAYWOOD: I imagine they cut 'em, stuck 'em. Stepped on nails or something another. Cut 'em on a piece of glass or --

FUSSEL: They looked like a --

HAYWOOD: Stepped on nails.

FUSSEL: They look like a pretty tough bunch of kids there. (laughs)

HAYWOOD: Yeah, they were.

FUSSEL: Well I've heard about a special school they had here in Columbus for the dinner toters do you know anything about that?

HAYWOOD: No sir.

00:03:00

FUSSEL: Or ever heard about that? They would let them out of school about 11:00 so I understand and they could carry dinners to their, uh relatives who were working in the mill and then go back to school, what around 2:00? Do you know anything about the dinner [inaudible] school?

DORIS SHAVERS: I've heard people tell about it. That they'd let them out -- my mother-in-law was one that carried dinners across -- and uh, she married the man that she carried the dinners to.

FUSSEL: Oh!

SHAVERS: But uh, she got out of school in the school months and she was going to uh, Gerard School.

FUSSEL: Mm hmm -- So she went across the river to --

SHAVERS: She went across the river, she picked up the lunch and carried it over to the mill and then went back across the bridge. And there -- she said there would be 7 or 8 of them --

FUSSEL: Uh huh

SHAVERS: -- in a group.

FUSSEL: Could be one of these people. (laughs)

SHAVERS: Could be.

FUSSEL: Who, who made the lunches?

SHAVERS: Uh, the wives and the mothers and uh, the sisters. Everybody pitched 00:04:00in, they made the lunches and packed them and all they had to do was pick up the lunches and take 'em over and come back. She said it'd take about 30-45 minutes for her to take the lunch over and come back.

FUSSEL: Well, what's in one of those baskets?

SHAVERS: Vegetables and white meat (laughs) I imagine. And uh, bread and uh, whatever they had. Potatoes, I'm sure. Whatever was in season was what they'd fix the lunches with and they actually cooked 'em and put 'em in and they would uh, put uh, fruit jars --

FUSSEL: Uh huh.

SHAVERS: -- with coffee.

FUSSEL: Oh, with coffee.

SHAVERS: With coffee.

FUSSEL: (Clears throat) White meat is uh…pork?

SHAVERS: Pork. And a lot of 'em carried white meat, I've heard them talk about what --

FUSSEL: It's fried?

SHAVERS: Fried white meat and biscuits and uh, whatever, whatever was available they'd just carry their lunches from the kitchen was.

00:05:00

FUSSEL: So the men would bring the baskets home with them in the afternoon when they, or night when they came off work.

SHAVERS: They would

FUSSEL: And uh, I guess, they, would uh, the same thing would happen the next day. They were working 6 days a week then?

SHAVERS: Yes, they worked 6 days a week. They usually didn't work on Sunday back then. They was uh more aware of the Sabbath.

FUSSEL: Uh huh.

SHAVERS: And they didn't work on Sundays.

STONEY: Ask, ask the old lady here if she ever fixed the lunches.

FUSSEL: Uh, huh. Uh, Ms. Haywood, did you, did you make uh, lunches for the men that were working in the mill? And were they --

HAYWOOD: I made it for my husband.

FUSSEL: Uh huh

HAYWOOD: Carried it to him.

FUSSEL: You carried his lunch to him?

HAYWOOD: Yeah.

FUSSEL: Well that's uh -- was that about what you'd fix uh, to for, for his lunch would be

HAYWOOD: Vegetables and they ate a lot of cornbread back then.

SHAVERS: Yes, they did

HAYWOOD: Cornbread, vegetables --

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FUSSEL: What about in the winter when there weren't many fresh vegetables around what would you do then?

HAYWOOD: I would cook dry peas and beans

FRED FUSSEL: Uh hmm -- Sweet potatoes?

HAYWOOD: Yeah, collards, turnips

FUSSEL: Yeah

STONEY: Did you ever work in the mill?

HAYWOOD: I worked in there about 3 years.

STONEY: Tell us about it, your experience.

HAYWOOD: Well, it wasn't no easy job. I was a spinner. My husband was a doffer. I don't know whether you know what a spinner is or not. (laughs)

SHAVERS: I do. (laughs) You can believe I know what a spinner is. (laughs)I think --

STONEY: Tell us about it.

SHAVERS: -- still put up an end -- if I went in there I believe I could still just take one and throw it up and it'd pick up and go on. And, I know I could…they said they're not having the lap sticks. You know, you had to be careful how you got your lap stick out. If you didn't you knocked all of your 00:07:00ends down. And you pull the cotton off and put it out and then you had to pick roll --

[break in video]

STONEY: Doris, tell us about -- what, tell uh, the visitors what it's about.

SHAVERS: Ms. Haywood, I can remember having to be real careful about your lap sticks when you took 'em out or you'd knock the ends down. And if you got behind they'd uh, what, you know they'd call it a ball-up of cotton would come out there. And then uh, you'd have to pick rollers about twice a week or three times a week that you had to -- but the lap sticks had to be done several times a day and you had to try to keep all those ends up. And it was hot and dusty and -- a lot of cotton flying around. You remember that don't you?

HAYWOOD: Yup. Get stuck up and had to cut 'em off.

SHAVERS: Yes, and if it didn't it'd uh, kinda start a fire sometimes, you know?

00:08:00

FUSSEL: What about fires in the, in the room? Were there times when you had fires get out of control?

SHAVERS: I can't recall a fire ever getting out of control. There was always somebody that would uh, see or they cut it off. And, uh fires are worse, I think now that with the nylon and uh, the threads and things that are not cotton. Than it was with the cotton. But cotton did catch on fire sometime.

STONEY: Good so, what happened when the mill wasn't working? How did you make a living?

HAYWOOD: Well it worked all the time -- just I can remember --

SHAVERS: They ran all the time unless there was a strike that I can remember. They uh, were never um, off that I can recall.

HAYWOOD: Back during the depression then, they went on a short time (clears throat)

SHAVERS: But they still had 2 and 3 days a week

HAYWOOD: Yeah, they had 2 and 3 days a week --

00:09:00

SHAVERS: -- for they would change around and let one family -- you know --

HAYWOOD: Yeah --

STONEY: Did you wo -- uh, live in the mill village?

HAYWOOD: No, they just had houses that you rented like they do now. Course there's more of them then they are now. They tore so many of them down.

SHAVERS: I can remember people telling me that when they lived in the house the rent was something like uh, uh, $1.25 a month.

HAYWOOD: Yeah, it's cheap.

SHAVERS: And it was real cheap rent. And it was, well it was cheap rent everywhere then but until WWII you know but uh --

HAYWOOD: I know --

SHAVERS: $1.25 was a good rent for a 4 room house.

FUSSEL: Would there be uh, there, would that just be for the family or would there be boarders in there, too?

SHAVERS: Um, they had some in Bibb City that could take care of boarders. But 00:10:00uh, for the main part it was just for the family, the immediate family. And the bathrooms were always on the back porch and uh, in those houses then, I think.

HAYWOOD: Or out in the back yard.

SHAVERS: Yes, or in the back yard, one.

FUSSEL: Mm, hmm. What kind of kitchen did you have in them?

SHAVERS: They didn't have built-in kitchens like they have now. They just had kitchens when you had a stove and uh -- I can remember when you didn't have a refrigerator. You just had a ice box and the ice man came around. And you bought ice, for uh enough to do for a day or two days.

HAYWOOD: Yeah --

SHAVERS: But uh, they certainly weren't built in the sink was just up there -- on the wall and you could see underneath the sink and it was uh, was not, nothing like what they are now.

FUSSEL: But you had indoor plumbing? Or did you?

SHAVERS: Yes, they had indoor plumbing in Bibb City. Always -- they had that because uh, had no wells there.

00:11:00

FUSSEL: Mm, hmm. What about the other rooms of the house? What, was there -- were they all bedrooms?

SHAVERS: They were all used for bedrooms because people had families that didn't have living rooms and dens like they do now. They would have what they called a front room. And the company would go into the front room and sit uh, there would usually would be a bed in there if I recall.

HAYWOOD: Yeah --

STONEY: Well now, Mr. Fussel you might describe the house that you've got over here and ask them uh, how similar it is to the one where they lived.

FUSSEL: Yeah, we've, we've built uh, part of a shotgun house here. And it's not necessarily a mill village house but it's kind of a typical Columbus house. Uh, we took parts from here and there from different buildings around town, sort of put 'em together. Uh, how is this different from the ones that you're talking about?

00:12:00

SHAVERS: Well now, the shotgun houses uh, the reason they'd call them shotgun houses is you stand at the front and see all the way to the back when the doors was open and uh, the ones in Bibb City were not built like that but there are some, in town still that uh, were built that way and you had this uh, long hall down the side. And that was for no purpose other than walking down because the walls took up room and you could see where that weren't expedient for the family because they'd had the hall taking up part of the living area. And a lot of people have gotten them now and taken out the hall and it makes a big difference.

FUSSEL: Uh,hmm…uh,hmmm, (clears throat) And uh, what about the front porch? Did people uh, use the porch a lot? Do you remember that?

SHAVERS: Yes, uh, they waited out there for the vegetable man to come along and the ice man to come along. And they would take their work out there -- their peas and sit it on the front or whatever they have to prepare they'd take it on the front if they had to wait for somebody to come by. And, you uh -- I've 00:13:00got several pictures uh, depicting that. People working on the porch, waiting for the vegetable wagon. They had the horse drawn wagons that would come through with vegetables -- scales on the back

FUSSEL: When uh, when the two of you were working uh, did they uh, have a little uh, cart they'd bring around uh, with uh, oh snack food and so forth?

SHAVERS: Called a dope wagon, yes.

FUSSEL: They called it what?

SHAVERS: The dope wagon.

HAYWOOD: The dope wagon.

FUSSEL: Why'd they call it the dope wagon?

HAYWOOD: Cause they had (inaudible) drinks on there…

SHAVERS: Coca Cola

HAYWOOD: and sandwiches.

FUSSEL: So Coca Colas were called dopes?

SHAVERS and HAYWOOD: Yes.

FUSSEL: Do you know why they called them dopes?

SHAVERS: Uh, I don't know why they called them dope. But uh, I guess they, they had the co-- uh, the uh, what is it? Caffeine in it and they uh, use them 00:14:00uh, to kind of pip them up.

FUSSEL: And uh, do they still call those uh, carts the dope wagon now? Do you know?

SHAVERS: Uh, I don't know? I don't know

FUSSEL: If they still have them or not?

SHAVERS: -- if they still have them or not. They don't have them.

FUSSEL: Uh, huh.

SHAVERS: They don't have them uh, what do they have now? Uh --

FUSSEL: Vending machines?

SHAVERS: Vending machines and snack bars.

FUSSEL: Uh, huh.

STONEY: Do either one of you remember uh, were there uh, black people in the mills, uh?

HAYWOOD: I don't remember any.

SHAVERS: Uh --

HAYWOOD: Yeah, they was -- worked in the slasher room.

SHAVERS: Yes --

HAYWOOD: Black ones did --

SHAVERS: Yes and there, they worked [and they?] did real heavy lifting and sweepers. They had some sweepers. But uh, they didn't have anybody that working on uh, the looms and the uh, the spinners -- they uh, didn't have them.

STONEY: How old were you when you uh, first started working in the mills?

00:15:00

HAYWOOD: Oh, that was 45 years ago since I worked in one. It's been a long time.

STONEY: How old were you then?

HAYWOOD: Oh, I was about 30 -- in my 30's. I don't remember just how old.

STONEY: So you didn't start as a child.

HAYWOOD: No sir. I worked in the Second World War.

STONEY: How old were your children when they worked in the mills?

HAYWOOD: They never did work in it.

STONEY: Any reason why?

HAYWOOD: They just didn't like it. Didn't like the mill.

STONEY: Well now, we've heard a lot of people talk about the lint head. Would you talk about that?

HAYWOOD: Well your head just got full of cotton. Lint -- and look like a cotton patch almost when you come out of there. Lot of lint flying, you know around.

SHAVERS: And the homes had it in them and you couldn't hardly get it out. We didn't have dryers then like we have now. And there'd be cotton flying all over the house if you had many workers in there.

00:16:00

STONEY: Did you resent being called uh, that?

HAYWOOD: Well I don't remember them ever calling me, calling that when I worked. I don't know, they might of did and I just didn't pay it no mind. Didn't pay no attention to it.

SHAVERS: I resented it. I thought that it was -- they meant that, you know -- and sometimes I think well I didn't have good sense or I would not have been in there. (laughs) But uh, they – or -- mostly for uneducated people and I had finished high school and I wondered why in the world I was in there (laughs) but I was in there for a while.

STONEY: Could you talk about your education?

HAYWOOD: My education? I didn't get any. I didn't -- I haven't got any education. Back then they didn't have to go to school and my parents didn't make me -- when I was growing up.

STONEY: So you didn't uh, didn't learn to read and write?

00:17:00

HAYWOOD: Well I just didn't like school. I didn't like school and they didn't make me go. My father was a rambler, he went everywhere. I never was in a place long enough to go to school much. In the country where there wasn't any schools --

SHAVERS: There didn't a compulsory school law until I was uh, 10 or 11 years old.

STONEY: Okay, is there anything else, Mr. Fussell that you would like to know from these ladies while they're here?

FUSSEL: Well I, I'd like to know if you've ever seen this photograph before you saw it here?

HAYWOOD: No I didn't. I --

FUSSEL: Do you remember anything about the, this person? Or have you ever heard about them talk about him coming in and making photographs?

HAYWOOD: No I haven't.

FUSSEL: So the family doesn't have any of these as far as you know?

HAYWOOD: Uh, uh. No. They don't have it.

FUSSEL: Yeah uh, hmm --

HAYWOOD: All the family's dead now.

FUSSEL: So who uh, who first saw this when the -- who came in here and saw that 00:18:00this was somebody that was kin to you?

HAYWOOD: My oldest son.