Cynthia Chattis and Charlie Jordan Interview



UNKNOWN MALE: We're rolling.

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

CYNTHIA CHATTIS: Uh, dad, when you were little did you have to, did you have to work?

CHARLIE JORDAN: Uh, if I wanted any money for myself I had to work cause, uh, my father only made around twelve dollars and fifty cents a week for a fifty-hour week.

CHATTIS: (inaudible)

JORDAN: And uh, they'd take a –- we were living in a four room house so they took a dollar rent out on that and there was two of us boys then. And he gave my mother ten dollars. He kept a dollar and a half. He gave us a nickel a piece. And if we got any more money outside of that we had to work. And the –- one 00:01:00way we'd –- when he had always had a big garden. We would pick his tomatoes and sell a bucketful for a dime enough to get us two Pepsis. Then --

CHATTIS: Did he know you were doing it?

JORDAN: Yeah, I guess he did. He didn't say anything.

CHATTIS: OK

JORDAN: And when I started school to -- they had a schoolhouse had stoves in it. And I would go up every morning at 7 o'clock and build fires for the rooms. Another person -- another boy with me -- would build fires for the upstairs rooms. I don't remember what we made. We made a little money. Then, when I was about twelve I got a job in a grocery store working after school and all day on Saturday. I made fifty cents a week for that. And when I started to work in 00:02:001940, I started twenty-five cents an hour. I made ten dollars a week.

CHATTIS: That was at the mill?

JORDAN: Mmhmm.

CHATTIS: What job did you start as?

JORDAN: I started out in a weave room.

CHATTIS: (coughs)

JORDAN: And I was really a trainee. I actually had to run the jobs and the spare hands what I was. That's what they called us. And one day we might be doing [backers?], or the next day end up filling. Just whatever job they needed where somebody would probably be out and they'd use us to fill in their jobs.

CHATTIS: Yeah, I've done that.

JORDAN: And uh I worked there until 41 I went into the service in 41. And when I 00:03:00came back in late 45, they were on strike. And they still gave us our 90 days after the strike was over to report back to work. So I went back to work and they gave me a job about the same type of job that I had when I left and um I went from the weave room. One of the assistant overseers recommended me to go in to the industrial engineering department. And I went into -- stayed in there five or 6 years and then they wanted me to go into the planning department.

CHATTIS: What was that?

JORDAN: That was, uh, in the finishing -- finishing and dyeing plant part of it. Uh, we did outside work for other people finished and dyed their cloth. And I 00:04:00worked with the outside people.

CHATTIS: Hmmm.

STONEY: Ok asking just one very direct question. Uh, if you were asked what they was striking for in 1934, what would you answer?

JORDAN: Probably better living conditions.

GEORGE STONEY: Just say I think the strike in '34 --

JORDAN: I think the strike in '34 was to improve living conditions plus getting them out of controlling people's lives.

CHATTIS: Well, you had some things you want to say about politics.

GEORGE STONEY: You can talk to me about this

JORDAN: OK, well, you wouldn't think that people were real strong 00:05:00political-wise back then but they were. The overseer of the spinning room was a Republican. The overseer in the weave room was a Democrat. So when I went to work I was put on in the weave room. And back, uh, way back when I was young and in the Boy Scouts, my father and his brother were born Republicans. They both switched and he –- my daddy worked in the spinning room were the overseer was Republican. So he fired my daddy cause he switched to Democrat party. And they, uh, overseer in the weave room who was Democrat told him that if he didn't put 00:06:00him back to work he would hire him in the weave room. So they put him back to work.

CHATTIS: (laughs) That's crazy.

GEORGE STONEY: This had nothing to do with the owner.

JORDAN: No, nuh-uh. No.

GEORGE STONEY: Just say this had nothing to do --

JORDAN: Nothing -- this had nothing to do with the owner or the manager. It was the overseers –- like the overseer of spinning, now he'd run the spinning room. Course he'd always had to answer to the superintendent but he was like the king of the spinning room.

JAMIE STONEY: He could hire and fire and

JORDAN: Yes. Mmhmm.

JAMIE STONEY: Unless he got specific orders from upstairs to hire somebody or keep them.

JORDAN: Right. He could hire and fire.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, could you talk about religion in the mills?

JORDAN: Well, the company owned all the land that the churches were on -- I believe there's seven churches in this town of around 2000 people -- the 00:07:00original churches, the land, and the house that the parsonage is on, the land was owned by the company with the church and the parsonage [self?] was owned by the churches. They did not push religion that I know of in the plant.

GEORGE STONEY: Did they ever use religion to against the union?

JORDAN: No, not that I know of.

GEORGE STONEY: Could you say they never used religion against the union --

JORDAN: They did not use religion against the union.

GEORGE STONEY: I'm sorry. Could you say I don't ever recall them using religion against the union in Cooleemee.

JORDAN: I don't recall that they ever used religion against the union in Cooleemee.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. Uh, Judy?

JUDITH HELFAND: Yes?

GEORGE STONEY: Are you happy?

HELFAND: Oh, yeah. Um, maybe we can talk a little bit about um your union activity in relation to Cindy's.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah, good. OK?

HELFAND: But it's really helpful for me to see your face so you can direct yourself towards George.

JORDAN: OK. When the, uh, when I came back in service the uh union was (inaudible) just getting going good then. And I joined the union and stayed in it til I went into industrial engineering. All supervisors and clerks could not belong to the union. And my daddy was a supervisor. He also didn't belong in the union. But my mother -- even though he was a supervisor -- still belong to 00:09:00the union and my wife belonged to the union. It was almost a closed shop. Probably 80 something percent of people, but you didn't have to go the union to get a job.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, why -- that was much -- union was much stronger here in Cooleemee than almost anywhere else in North Carolina. Why do you think that was?

JORDAN: Well, its cause I think this union in Cooleeme was stronger because everybody knew everybody. It wasn't a person in this town that I didn't know how many children they had and nothing else. And the other reason is because how people felt that they were just white slaves. I think that's the biggest thing 00:10:00they help the union here.

GEORGE STONEY: Let me suggest something and it may not be, if not true and if it is don't(inaudible), but it seems to me that you have a better quality in leadership in the union here than in a lot of other places. Could you talk about the people who took responsibility for the union here.

JORDAN: In our union we had a business agent. My cousin, to start with, he's the one who threw the engineer out the window. He was he got he was a business agent and he's real hard worker at it. And he was fairly smart -- he had no college, but he'd been in the Navy for about 8 years. And he was I reckoned he got a lot of education out of the Navy. And then when he left, another boy took to business agent and he also put a lot of time into it. And we had a they had 00:11:00we had a -- before we could arbitrate, this union had the money that if they had to if an arbitration come up they had the money to pay the arbitrators to come in and take care of it. And the company, the company got more lenient after the union was formed, too.

GEORGE STONEY: OK anything else?

HELFAND: Cindy, is this news to you?

CHATTIS: Yeah, uh, you know I'd never really knew that the uh my family was even involved in the union. Matter of fact I always thought they were antis how they look down on me for my union activities. But, you know, this is real big news for me [laughs] I found out my grandfather helped organized uh my father was in the union. My mother. [laughs]

JORDAN: I was only in the union so long but I seen what it did for this town. And I did not I will not kick my union. I never have. I think maybe some of them maybe got a little out of hand I don't know but they really they really helped this town. They pull out of the backwoods you might say.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, when you were going to school did you get any education about unions?

CHATTIS: No.

GEORGE STONEY: say that

CHATTIS: You know I didn't even know a union existed. I didn't have any education about a union. But, you know, I could see -- I could tell the difference between when I was growing up and when daddy was growing up, you know. And it looks like the union made that difference because it was none of 00:13:00this superintendent running the town or anything like that. I think that's great.

GEORGE STONEY: Cut. Ok I think we've got it. (inaudible) You got one minute, you say? Why don't you get (inaudible) on that.

HELFAND: Oh, George?

STONEY: Yeah?

HELFAND: Did they have. Did you tell us some of where the union office was?

STONEY: No, we'll get that when we go.

CHATTIS: OK.

GEORGE STONEY: Could you [be looking at?]

JAMIE STONEY: Just look at her sort of as if you're listening. Look at her as if you're deeply engrossed.

JORDAN: Ok

CHATTIS: Like that or? Can you nod at me?

JORDAN: Yeah

JAMIE STONEY: This lady's done this before.

CHATTIS: [LAUGHS] I'm an experienced [noddy?]

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GEORGE STONEY: Did they blow a whistle?

CHATTIS: It blows inside the plant.

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M1: You might get hit.

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(indistinct conversation)

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M1: Rolling?

M2: Yeah.

[Silence]

[Silence]

[Silence]

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F1: What time is that (inaudible)?

F2: 2 o'clock.

F1: What time are we gonna get together?

(laughter) F3: That was me hopping on the (inaudible).

[Silence]

JAMIE STONEY: (inaudible)

(indistinct conversation)

(crosstalk inaudible)

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CHATTIS: Doing some stuff at my grandma's house. I was talking to my daddy and my grandma. And they were telling us what it was like before the unions came in 00:24:00uh what it was like to work for the company. Said that the plant's superintendent more or less ran the company, ran the town. You know if you wanted a place to live you had to go to him and ask him. And if he wanted you to have a house you could have a house and if he didn't then you didn't get one. And, uh, he put you in whatever part of town he wanted to put you in. If he liked Brenda, he would put her in a good section of town. If he didn't like you then he'd put you in a bad section of town. Everything depended on –

BRENDA: Well, I'm glad he liked me.

CHATTIS: They said that when my grandfather was made a supervisor, my grandmother said one day men from the company came to the door one day, knocking on the door. Said we're here to remodel your house because he had been made supervisor. So they didn't have any choice of the matter. They came in, 00:25:00remodeled their house and the rent went up, automatically. You know I just wondered, you know, if it was like that around here too.

F3: Was you working here before the union?

M3: Yes.

F3: Well, tell us some things.

M3: Well, what do you want to know? (inaudible)

(inaudible)

M3: I came to work here in 1946.

F4: Was it like that here?

M3: Some. Some of the things was still like that here, but, but uh, when I came to work here, Claude Morris owned the mill and it was not Cone mill. It was Salisbury mill. And they had a company store right here in this building. And I'd come to this building and got two gallons, cans of kerosene and carry 'em back in the plant to wash and clean the machinery with.

F4: When did it turn to Cone mills?

M3: Well, Cone bought it out. They had stock in it but they took over main stock in it when Mr. Claude Morris got real old right before he died. And his 00:26:00(inaudible) worked in Greensboro and the other worked here for years.

F4: What did it take to get a mill house?

M3: I don't know. My mother lived in the millhouse when I was born. I was born in a millhouse.

F4: You live in one don't you?

M3: I bought one.

CHATTIS: Yeah? Did you always live around here? Right around this hill?

M3: I was born right here.

CHATTIS: You remember what it was like when you were little?

M3: Yeah. When I was little –- when I was young before the depression and when the depression come it was hard. It was hard.

M4: How would you compare the pay now versus what you made then as far as -- I know it's different but --

M3: Times are different. Pay back then would just about what it is now but it's a little harder now, I think.

M4: So you would say back then it was tough but it seem harder now.

M3: Yeah, but back then you couldn't afford nothing but pinto beans and fat back.

M4: OK (laughs)

M3: That's a fact.

CHATTIS: Did you have to buy that in the company store?

M3: Uh, well, yeah we did. (inaudible) office store over here across the railroad.

CHATTIS: Really?

M3: Yeah

CHATTIS: How were the prices? Were they, uh --

M3: Well, I could buy a slab of fat back this big. That big a square for a dime.

CHATTIS and OTHERS: Oh.

M3: And stuff like that.

CHATTIS: So, was it --

M3: But that was when times were hard. You didn't have many dimes.

CHATTIS: Yeah. (laughs)

M4: Yeah. What about, uh, heating supplies like kerosene, coal, or whatever wood?

M3: The mill -- the mill back then when Salisbury mill had it -- the mill furnished you with coal. They would bring a load of coal or a load of wood to your house and put it off and take it out and you pay.

M4: How much was that?

M3: I don't even know, but I do know that happened.

M4: OK.

M3: Uh, the mill furnished your lights.

F4: You didn't have to pay any power?

M3: Back then the mill had a, so to speak, a plant nurse –- Ms. Williams -- and if you didn't and had a left hand front porch lights so you couldn't use it in the house. When they furnished the porch lights and you kept it burning that way you could see at night if somebody was sick. And if your light wasn't burning she came by and reported it. Our light must be burning.

M4: That was one of the rules for her sake --

F1: Wow. That's real interesting.

M4: But what about –- were you around when they got to the point where you seen a major change in the way management was treating employees in the plant? Or is there any difference comparing to when you first started to now? Or in-between or your tenure with the company?

M3: Well, when I came to work the management, I believe, was a little tougher 00:29:00than they are right now. Because they –- when they said something they meant it. These guys sometimes they say something they don't mean it.

F4: This was before the union?

M3: Yeah.

M4: So, do you believe the union has improved the working conditions? Or it is pretty much the same as far as working conditions and the way you're treated?

M3: Uh, now I'm gonna answer that question -– I worked for the same pay for years and years and when the union came my wages increased. Does that answer your question?

M4: Yes. Good. Good. OK. I don't have anymore. Anybody else have any?

F4: I do. I have a question.