Joe Jacobs and Bill Winn Interviews



JOE JACOBS:-- to Memorial See in this area now just above us here is the Keebler people and Nabisco people, which are good union shops up there now. - – When the Elsas's were in their hay day I don't think they would have permitted that to happen.

GEORGE STONEY: How would they have prevented it?

JACOBS: How?

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

JACOBS: They probably would have had to have zoning to put up the factory and they would have gotten word out to the owners of the of Nabisco and those people 00:01:00that this was the wrong location. Here's an old, old church here. This this was probably one of them that was financed by the the um Elsas's family. See here's the old Oakland Cemetery.

GEORGE STONEY: You have to only talk about things on your left, because we aren't seeing the things on your right.

JACOBS: Okay on the left.

STONEY: Yes, Sir

JACOBS: Well I'm going the wrong - - we'll get to it.

JAMIE STONEY: You can always turn here, then come back up the alley the other way.

JACOBS: The cemetery and that's the oldest cemetery that's where Margaret Mitchell is buried, and where the first settlers in uh this end of the World are buried. Alright you see this store right here, on the corner?

GEORGE STONEY: Alright sir but we can't talk about things on your right.

JAMIE STONEY: I can get it on this side.

GEORGE STONEY: Okay. Alright go ahead.

JACOBS: That's, that's, where we had our meetings right in there but this store has been rebuilt. You follow me?

GEORGE STONEY: Yes.

JACOBS: It was not brick then and this was inside the village, we wouldn't dare come in here. We would not dare come in here and the reason we wouldn't is because - - this was the Elsas's family and it was patrolled by the Pinkerton people. Yeah and here's where Little's place is, this is this is one of the grocers who was friendly to us. This is his place right here and that's where some of 'um would spend time in there.

GEORGE STONEY: (inaudible)

JAMIE STONEY: Deal with it ok, deal with it.

JACOBS: See if this goes through. Oh here's the way we go. - - Remember I told you that there where the Pinkerton people were housed, to the left here is where they did there housing. And if you notice right across the street from us is where the cemetery is and here's where the housing was done, right here. You see these two there was some more that were - - well this one's come down I remember there was another one which was a third one. Now we were able to meet in that place but I'm gone show you right here. I'm gone turn to the left right here if I can. See where this area is right here at one time there was 00:04:00some houses it faced here and between these houses there was a space where one had not been built. And I would say we're where I'm turning now is approximately the spot where it was. I'm gone swing around here. Right here. When we first tried to organize the people. See where it say the sign there M.L. King Jr historic site. There was a little area in here and we held one of our first meetings here. And this where the people who came out of the mill would be heading back this way to go back into some of these houses. And of course it was 00:05:00easy to attract attention. In addition to that we were not sure whether or not at first the Elsas's property ran all the way back to Memorial Drive we found out it did by the way. Because they order us of when we wouldn't get off why they got the police after us and the Pinkerton people after us and we had to move away from it. That's when it was we then turned around and began meeting in that corner store that I told you that belonged to one of our people who owned the property there. And we continued to meet there during the entire period of time.

GEORGE STONEY: Okay. Let's hold it for just a moment.

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JACOBS: Okay. What we are looking at straight ahead those two house and that one 00:06:00time was a third one is where the Pinkerton people was housed during the time of the strike. If you notice just beyond is the old Elsas's Mill and the Elsas's Mill was bag and cotton mill which was at the low end of production. In other words where they did not have to have any tremendous skills like some of the weave mills that where making cloths and something other than grey goods. And then as you come around to the right where you are on Carrol Street it was down that street that we had a house that belong to, or a little building that belonged to one of our people and where we had held a number of our meetings there. And then right here where in this area where we're standing was where we held the first meeting and we held it right off the sidewalk here and a man name Judd was the organizer who was here and he was the one - - we had built 00:07:00some crates up for him to stand on and he was talking there before he got very much said the Pinkerton people were here and they had the Atlanta Police Force down here and told us we were on private property we had understood this did not belong to the Elsas's but belong to someone else that's why we thought we could get away with holding a meeting out here in the open. They wouldn't let us do it they claimed it was the Elsas's people, the police verified it was the Elsas's people they broke up our meeting. I don't have to tell you though before they broke it up by the time they did we had a tremendous crowd. If the police hadn't of been here we could have has as bigger crowd cause they would have gone on. Then we use to come down this street and we use to try to engage the people coming out of the mill in conversation about the union. And for awhile were able to do it and we were able to give them some of our literature. But then the company decided that wouldn't do, so they would start 00:08:00their supervisors and the superintendents and have them walk down here and as they would walk down here of course the people would be frighten to take any of our literature. They were afraid to talk with us and as result why we weren't able to do very much with um. This was a real hard place to do much with because the Elsas's Family was paternalistic uuh they use to say that uh the Elsas's people would - - somebody in the Elsas's Family would be through the mill once a day. In other words they would walk through for whatever reasons and when they did its hello, how are you, uh what about your daughter is she well now, or what about that little grandson of yours. And it was all this effort to set up a close relationship with their hands so that the loyalty would be on a personal 00:09:00bases. And the Elsas's did that over a real long period of time as long as they were here. And of course this was their mill village and this followed the same pattern that the other mill villages did. And that is that rent was low they rented it to their people, they paid by the room, and things of that kind.

GEORGE STONEY: Hold it, Jamie

JAMIE STONEY: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: I've gotta suggest now we move right up to the behind the old mill.

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GEORGE STONEY: The meetings.

JACOBS: Yes.

GEORGE STONEY: What happened? How they got the Pinkerton's and so fourth and so on.

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JAMIE STONEY: - - There we go okay rolling.

JACOBS: Alright. When we started holding our meetings here at Fulton bag we knew we would have a problem with to where to hold'em, so we held it first close to 00:10:00Memorial drive and on Boulevard in a place that we thought did not belong to the Elsas's. And when we started our first meeting why that's when it was the Pinkerton People came down and some of the supervisor's came down, and they made us move away from there. We had disputed with them as to whether or not the Elsas's owned at the time and they claimed they did and the Atlanta Police were able to show us that they did. As a result of it we then moved further down on Carrol Street where one of our people owned a little place and that's where we held our meetings. Now within sight of it on Boulevard was where the Pinkerton's was stationed in the two-three story buildings there were three of them at the time. And the Pinkerton people could that way command most of the rim on that side of the Mill Village in addition to that that's were main 00:11:00traffic went through. The people use to come that way to go back to their homes we did alright for awhile in given out some literature, but our problem then developed because the supervisors started walking out there with them. The people were afraid to get anything from us or to even talk to us even though we tried to talk to them on the streets. Now where we at now of course is where the Mill village was and the factory and is you notice there has been a lot of changes made because they have closed these windows up at one time these were open windows when they put air conditioning in why they had to block them out in order to keep the air in. And you see that made quite a change. The same thing it applies all the way back to what I call the steeple which is usually the 00:12:00stair well where the people would run in and there out from it. In addition to that we are facing towards that steeple where the railroad track is. That's the railroad were the materials were brought in the raw material, the cottons where brought in to the plant together with all the other supplies and then when they had their shipments why the shipments also went out. This was the main track of the railroad system that was running towards the coast. And this was the same railroad system that Sherman marched down when he marched through Atlanta and burned most of Atlanta and marched on towards Savannah and some of the historic battles we had in the war between the states.

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GEORGE STONEY: Joe Jacobs.

STELLA BRYANT: I'm Mayor Stella Bryant for Mayor of Cabbagetown

JACOBS: Well how are you?

BRYANT: I was elected in by the people for the people in 1967 and I been - - they won't let me leave.

JACOBS: No they won't.

BRYANT: I been in Cabbagetown ever since 1965.

JACOBS: Oh that's pretty good that's uh that's uh for at least a good period of time but I have been around here lots longer than you have then.

BRYANT: That's right. I raised two children up here.

JACOBS: How did you come here to Cabbagetown?

BRYANT: Well my husband lived up here when he was 14 years old.

JACOBS: Yes.

BRYANT: Then he moved away and then we moved back up here.

JACOBS: I see.

BRYANT: And I been up here since - ever since '65 and I don't want to leave

JACOBS: There you go.

BRYANT: We love Cabbagetown.

JACOBS: Good. Did you ever work at the mill when the Elsas's where here?

BRYANT: No sir. I never did.

JACOBS: Never did?

BRYANT: No sir.

JACOBS: So you never had a taste of it did ya?

BRYANT: No sir.

JACOBS: It's a lot of change since then too.

BRYANT: Yeah but I worked in the community since every 19 - -

JACOBS: Where do most of the people live now or work now?

BRYANT: Well most of them is living on social security.

JACOBS: Is that right?

BRYANT: Yes sir.

JACOBS: Mm. uh and those that work where do they work?

BRYANT: Well uh they work at different jobs.

JACOBS: Yeah like. Like what?

BRYANT: Well they work at - - some of them works at Atlanta Diary you know they...

JACOBS: Yeah which is just down the street

BRYANT: Yes sir.

JACOBS: u-huh

BRYANT: u-huh

JACOBS: How about over there at the bakery that's a little further down?

BRYANT: No they closed that - - no they closed that bakery up years…

JACOBS: They closed it?

BRYANT: Yes sir. They closed it years ago

JACOBS: Well that use to be a real good place to work.

BRYANT: It was a real good place, yes sir

JACOBS: Yeah a real good place.

BRYANT: Yes sir. We all use to work together.

JACOBS: And then they use to have a mattress factory back down the street too.

BRYANT: McDaniel's mattress factory yes sir.

JACOBS: That's right. Then Simmons use to be down there.

BRYANT: Yes sir. u-huh.

JACOBS: That was probably before your time though

BRYANT: No. I - - it was there when we moved…

JACOBS: Was Simmons still there?

BRYANT: Yes sir when we moved up here.

JACOBS: I see. Are they still operating at there or they closed that?

BRYANT: No. They moved out on Stewart Avenue.

JACOBS: Yeah well that was the new place that they set up

BRYANT: u-huh.

JACOBS: Just like they had one over there on North Avenue.

BRYANT: u-huh.

JACOBS: And they had this other one at Stewart.

BRYANT: Yeah. u-huh they moved out on Stewart Avenue.

JACOBS: Well good. So you like living here?

BRYANT: Oh yeah you can't get me away. I raised two children

JACOBS: Yeah.

BRYANT: and they well be 29 years old (inaudible).

JACOBS: Yeah.

BRYANT: And I have my four grandchildren and I'm doing what raising them.

JACOBS: Well good.

BRYANT: Yeah

JACOBS: Well, what do your children do?

BRYANT: Well one works for Jenkins Sheet Metal over on - -

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HELFAND: I'm gonna hide the wire that is hanging out from under his tie.

JAMIE STONEY: We don't see it, we don't see it.

JACOBS: Alright.

JAMIE STONEY: And we're rolling.

JACOBS: During, during the time that the strike was on the -- these streets we not like anything they are now they were all pot holes. As I remember it during that period of time when you came south on Boulevard, which is the street that ran in front of the mill. Just as you pass underneath the railroad tracks there was where they had one station of the Pinkerton's where they had a booth set up there for them that where there headquarters were there. Then when you came all the way around a long pass the cemetery and you hit Memorial Drive right there on the corner and that was the Northeast corner. There was a tent that was 00:16:00pitched by the National Guard and they had a station there. I don't remember any big number of guards being there like there was like for example up at Cartersville or down at Neman, or over in Griffin or some of the other places where they had real - - well I'm not familiar with the military sizes of them but it was a real detachment of them but that where they had their guards and that was there headquarters. If you was travel through on boulevard you had no problem if you came up a street like Carrol Street or Shelton Street, or Gaskill Street or any of these street in the village and you were not either a residence here or the people in those houses didn't know you it didn't very long until either a Pinkerton man or somebody from the company was trying to find out who 00:17:00you were. There was one more booth on Memorial drive on the far end of the Elsas's property were they had another station with the Pinkerton People and there they always had somebody. And by the way those people were on 24-hours round the clock. It just wasn't maned certain houses it was maned around the clock and if you got in here you had to either belong here or some kin to somebody here or be here on some kind of a official business were you knew that you could come and nobody would run you off. Otherwise they were running you off. If you want to call it a uh guard camp or a camp where they were patrolling where they wouldn't let anyone in unless those who belong here that's what it was.

GEORGE STONEY: So you never had a flying squadron here.

JACOBS: No flying squadron here. The reason it was no flying squadron here is we 00:18:00considered it many times. We figured it was a waste of time, effort, and energy because these people were so anti-union so loyal to the paternalistic system the Else's People had here we knew we were wasting our time. We were having trouble getting committees to work and that's part of the reason why.

JAMIE STONEY: How are the houses that are here now condition compare to what was then (inaudible)?

JACOBS: The houses now show a variety of either porches, back porches, front porches, little gardens different changes. Other than that they are pretty much like they were except if you look at this house here and you see the paint crumbling off their use to be a tremendous number of them like that the reason it was is because they before they finished repainting them why they need to be painted again and time they went through the village and came back again they 00:19:00had all that problem. But all the houses looked alike. I often said that if you dranked a little too much and you walked down the street you might have a difficulty in recognizing your house because they all looked exactly alike.

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BILL WINN: Uh my name is Billy Winn and uh this is my home town of Columbus, Ga. Over my shoulder you can see the Eagle and Phenix Mill one of the oldest mill we have here. It's part of a vast row of mills that lined the river here for several miles all textile mills with the exception of one a grist mill. They have been here since the 1840's although you can't really see it in this shot immediately behind this mill is the river. And the river and the mills were linked together here in Columbus. The steam ships came here to the warf beginning 00:20:00in the 1840 and took both finish products and raw cotton and bails down river to Apalachicola where it was shipped to world ports. At one time or another in Columbus approximately 25% of the town's population worked in the mills until really shortly before World War II a high percentage of those were children. Columbus uh led the nation in the fight against child labor laws, effective child legislation. And this was one of the few towns in American were children twelve years of age or younger regularly worked in the cotton mills 66 hours a week. Um alongside their mothers and their father and other members in their 00:21:00families. We had a good deal of labor trouble over the years, although you can't tell it today. This is a interesting town in that regard. It's a violent little town it has of history of violence that include both the labor movement and of course racial problems which are inextricable linked in Columbus. It's a interesting place in that regard that's why I'm here to uh to write about the history of the town.

GEORGE STONEY: Tell about your own back ground.

WINN: I was born here in the uh late 30's and grew up here as a boy in the 40's and 50's. I was the son of a doctor who was a city physician who himself was a transplanted Canadian and while he was city physician for 20 years or so, he - - part of his responsibility were to tend to the people in the mills 00:22:00who were too poor - - many were too poor to go to private physician and so as city physician he saw them and uh he established a trade in the mills. And so the time I was a little child I grew up with stories of the mills my father's father worked in this mill here and also one you can't see further down the Muscogee Manufacturing Company as a uh dye room supervisor. They called him a chemist but basically all he did was dye some of the finished and semi-finished products. On the other side of my family uh are mill owners. My mother, the mother, my mother side are mill operatives of management rank, executive rank so I really have seen the mill story, live the mill story from both sides. This 00:23:00gives you an interesting perspective sometimes.

GEORGE STONEY: (inaudible)

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WINN: In the 60's and 70's - - The 1960's and 70's most of the mills in Columbus passed out of local family ownership into large cooperate

JAMIE STONEY: Once more please.

WINN: In the 1960's and 70's most of the mills in Columbus were sold by the local family owners to large corporations Fieldcrest and so forth. And the mills were somewhat modernized and you can see from the facade here the windows uh of the mill have been closed in and they have been air conditioned. When I was a boy growing up here I worked for awhile here in this mill and the Muscogee Manufacturing Company and of course they weren't air conditioned at that time. And you could literally see the lint floating in the air not only in the weave room but all over the mill and this entire section of the down town was covered 00:24:00with cotton lint and uh stacks of cotton bails all up and down and cotton warehouses. The facade has changed quite a bit the way this mill, old mill looked. It is an old mill it was built immediately after the Civil War it was destroyed in 1875 by General Wilson. But was rebuilt by the town's people and has been in operations continuously more or less ever since. My father spent a pretty good amount of time in these mills

GEORGE STONEY: Could you talk about the lint and your father?

WINN: Yeah let's see. My Father spent a good deal of time in these mills and they were not healthy working environments. There's no question about it. Not only were they uh were they very hot but the environment, the lint, the air, uh combined with the moisture uh it troubled my father that uh that people were 00:25:00inhaling this sort of - - this sort of stuff. His own father my grandfather who worked in the mill died of pancreatic cancer and I often wonder if there was not some sort of connect between his work and the mills. But my father as a physician saw the conditions in the mill and was very angry about it. And told me stories as a boy about some of the incidents that had happened in the mill. I'm sure they were relayed to him by his own father as well. Uh they were not very pleasant places to work even when I was a boy.

GEORGE STONEY: Now when you worked in the mill described what it was like.

WINN: I just worked in the mill in the summer when I was going to school so I was never, I was never caught in the mills but I did work in the Muscogee Manufacturing Company here in the paint department. And I got see the inside of 00:26:00the mills first hand. We would paint the weave room and we painted the compressor in the dye room and various other parts of the mill. And uh what I saw even though I knew about the mills, I knew about the conditions in the mill I was shocked by what I saw. I think anybody would have been. Uh the heat the discomfort of the workers, the uhhh ignorance and poverty was appalling things to a young boy and I was no more sensitive than anyone else. I think anybody who had gone into the environment would have felt that way.

GEORGE STONEY: Can you describe physically what it was like when you breathed in?

WINN: Well it was like breathing under water in the weave room. The combination of the lint in the air, the moisture in the lint which was everywhere. It was 00:27:00almost like inhaling cotton itself. Many of the people I worked with were in poor health and uh I'm sure died there young men. Frequently I worked beside people there I thought was 50, 60 years old would turn out to be in their 20's.and uh or I would think somebody would be you know 50 years old and would turn out to be 35. It was quite an experience.

JAMIE STONEY: I'm just gonna grab some cut aways of those windows there. Tell me what's like the average what the temperature and humidity inside.

WINN: Well of course. Of course in the summer time the temperature was well over 00:28:00100 degrees in the weave room. Because the lint tended to drift out the window and onto the streets uh there was not the windows were not entirely open they had wire screens in them heavy wire screens as I remember. To hold the - - I guess to keep the lint from drifting out and so the atmosphere and the temperature in there was very humid and it was extremely hot I have no idea what the temperature was I never measured-- but well over a hundred degrees I know throughout the summer months. I never worked in the mills during the winter and so I don't know what that was like.

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