R.J. Terrel and McKinley Marchman Interviews



R.J. TERREL: Oh, my grandchildren?

STONEY: Yes, as though you're talking to your grandchildren.

TERREL: Yes. Well, I -- there ain't nothing I can tell 'em, but just tell them 'bout how I used to work in the mill. So that's where I did my work, there at the mill. (inaudible) So I enjoyed it. Yeah, sure did, till my health commenced to getting bad and I had to come off the job. So I -- I had to go to the hospital the same year I retired. Blood was low, and so after I got back, 00:01:00they told me, said, "Well, you can retire, if you want to." I didn't want to quit work, but finally I quit cause I -- seemed like to me I was getting weak, you know. From that, I -- and then I had a heart attack and that's when I had to have put in a pacemaker. After I had that infect, you know, my memory ain't good, you know, like it was back in them days. So --

STONEY: But one thing that you were pretty clear about yesterday, which you haven't talked about yet, was about that strike back in '34. Tell us about that again.

TERREL: That strike in '34? Let's see. I was there when -- yeah, I know I was 00:02:00there. I don't remember nothing too much about what they done. I didn't -- see, I just come off -- we come off. They told us we wasn't going to work none now. So my boss just told me, you know, what I had to do. Said, "You won't be working. Well, you won't be drawing nothing. So I -- I'll fix a place where you can get food for you and your children, you know, your family." He did that to where we went back to work and commenced, you know, drawing a check. Uh hum.

STONEY: What happened around the mill during that time when it was closed?

TERREL: Well, I don't know nothing that happened. Might have been something happened, but I didn't -- I don't remember it.

STONEY: Was there pickets around? Were there meetings?

TERREL: Well, I tell you true, I don't know. It could have been, cause I didn't go 'round back down around there. After I left there and he told me what I had to do, now I didn't go down there, back down there, till they said it was time for us to go back to work. I think they did say they was some pickets around there. You know, I didn't never go back down there to see what's going on.

STONEY: Were you afraid to go down there?

TERREL: No, I wasn't all that afraid, cause I knowed -- I had heard, you know, you didn't supposed to be down there, you know, and all this. I just didn't never go down there cause I wasn't -- I know it wasn't no work going on. I just didn't go down there.

STONEY: Ok.

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STONEY: (inaudible)

TERREL: That was when I was over to the old mill now.

STONEY: That's right?

STONEY: Well could you tell us that again.

M1: Hold on just a minute.

TERREL: Uh hum.

STONEY: Well, could you tell us that again?

TERREL: Yeah

TERREL: They paid me just 'bout like, you know, what the same thing they was paying when I was sweeping.

STONEY: Now start again and tell me that whole story.

TERREL: Oh, 'bout when I started to work there? I started sweeping, up in that card room sweeping. From that, they moved me to the picking room, a picker, you know. We called it "breakers" back then -- laps, running laps in the picking room. From that, down to the opening room. I run openers for setting up cotton up in the mill. From that, went to work out on the yard. Striking on the truck 00:05:00with Roy Wade. From that -- worked out on the yard a long time. You know, we used to haul old garbage. In fact when I started driving the truck over to the new mill, I hauled garbage, you know, from one house to, you know. Yeah.

STONEY: But how did they pay you?

TERREL: They paid me -- they paid us once a week.

STONEY: How much?

TERREL: I just can't remember now what I was getting when I left there. Well, I might have some of them old stubs somewhere here now, but I can't -- I can't -- what I know, I wasn't making much at the time, 'cause I've been retired 'round, ah, when I was 62. And you can't count them years up now and 00:06:00you know about how many years that been (inaudible).

STONEY: Ok, let's hold it just a minute--

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STONEY: Wood.

TERREL: Harmon Wood? Yeah, I remember (inaudible). A black guy called Harmon Wood, uh huh.

STONEY: Tell us about him.

TERREL: Well, I just knowed him. In fact I didn't ever -- I never did know about him working at the mill, though. I just knowed him being in the old mill, Harmon Wood. Now it could have been a white 'un named Harmon Wood, but I don't know. But the one I knowed was a black guy, you know.

STONEY: Now this is a letter which Harmon Wood wrote to Washington July the 31st, 1934. Or is it '33? Let me make sure -- 1933 -- right after the new rules came in about what you're supposed to get paid. And he said, "Dear Sir, on the night hour shift I'm running two machines and one of them is a Willard -- Willow machine and the others are the waste machine and here is one of the envelopes that I drew my time in. And the paymaster gave me your address and told me to, ah, correspond with you and the President and show them my books." 00:08:00And what he's saying is that he's not getting paid as much as he ought to. Did you realize that that kind of -- that people were doing that kind of thing?

TERREL: Well, if it was, I didn't know it. (inaudible)

STONEY: Now he said, what he says here, that when he complained about not getting enough pay they took his job away.

TERREL: Yeah.

STONEY: And because he complained that he didn't get paid for two weeks' work. His boss' name is Mr. Singleton Terry.

TERREL: I knowed him. I knowed him, all right. Sure. But I don't remember Harmon Wood. (inaudible) Uh hum.

STONEY: Did you get a pay envelope like that?

TERREL: Yeah, I think I did. I think I got an envelope, pay envelope like that, uh hum. Yeah.

STONEY: So this is --

TERREL: What year was that?

STONEY: This 1933.

TERREL: Oh, yeah, I think I did. Yeah, I think I got a envelope like that. You asked Roy? Yeah. Uh hum. Yes, I got one like that.

STONEY: So you think this is a genuine letter?

TERREL: Well, I don't know. That's the letter you say a Wood wrote. I don't -- I didn't know nothing 'bout that.

STONEY: But you do know Mr. --

TERREL: I knowed Mr. Singletary. Yeah, I knew him. He used to be a boss up in the mill. Is that right? Well, he wasn't my boss, uh uhm. My boss was Mr. Charlie (inaudible).

M1: Just a minute.

STONEY: Ok I think we're through.

TERREL: Now that was over to the old mill, oh, yeah.

STONEY: That's right.

TERREL: Oh yeah.

STONEY: So tell us that again.

TERREL: Well, they paid me. We made 12 hours a day and, ah, from 6 to 6 we 00:11:00worked when I went there. But I just remembered what I was making at 12 hours when I left there, old mill or not. It might have been started down to 8 or 8 hours. I don't remember. (inaudible) But I 'member they give us a raise before I left there, I think about 25 cents an hour, something like that, 'fore I left the old mill. I got more when I started back -- when I went over to the new mill, I got more. I disremember now what we were getting. (laughs) (inaudible) Uh hum.

STONEY: But you were able to buy this property.

TERREL: Well, I was able to make payments on the land and, ah, my boys had done got big enough to kind of help me out a little bit then. Then some of 'em 00:12:00working down at the mill kind of helped me out. So I bought a acre of land. It didn't cost -- cost $75 a acre then. (laughs) Yes, sir. And at times -- war time. After war time, we had to go place to place, getting -- couldn't just go buy lumber, you know, anywhere. You had the (inaudible) lumber, you know, where you had to go different places to pick up scraps and stuff to build his house with. That's the way we did, you know, scrap lumber. And the man did -- Mr. Arnold -- he had promised me -- just before they (inaudible) this lumber, he had promised me to let me have some lumber to build this house. And, ah, he had promised to me 'fore --

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STONEY: Tell about that.

TERREL: Well, naw, I never did live in a mill house.

STONEY: Why was that?

TERREL: Hum?

STOENY: Why?

TERREL: 'Cause it wasn't no -- they did say when they built them houses over there in Mexico, they built 'em for colored. Well, the work picked up pretty good and the white people commenced moving in and there never did no colored folks never did go stay over there. White people's coming from different places, Alabama, you know, for jobs and things. Well, they -- they moved over there, Mexico(?). Didn't no -- didn't no coloreds stay on the village at t'all. But now, since then, since I lived there, some coloreds stay on the village they tell me. When it was back in that time, they didn't no colored stay on the village. Uh hum.

STONEY: Thank you very much.

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TERRELL: When you started colored running machines --

M1: Just a second.

STONEY: Just a sec. Alright sir.

TERRELL: Well, you know, when they started letting colored people running machines in the mill there, I'm satisfied -- I reckon they got just what the whites got an hour, you know. Well, that was after I left there, you see.

STONEY: Were you ever paid as much as a white man?

TERRELL: No, not as I know, sir. No, cause, see, I drove a truck. They didn't ever pay me what they was supposed to pay a truck driver. Well, I didn't think they should. They never did, cause they just had me as a shop helper, is only what they had me down, as shop helper. They didn't never put me down as a truck driver. I didn't know that till after I left there. (laughs) Well -- well, 00:15:00(inaudible) nothing I could do about it no how. So I didn't try to do nothing 'bout it cause I'd be satisfied cause I didn't ever -- I looked for just a living. I didn't ever try to, you know, trying (inaudible) raising children, who have a lot of children. All I wanted to have enough to kind of feed 'em like, you know, get em' going and growing up.

JUDITH HELFAND: Mr. Terrell, were there --

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HELFAND: -- people on looms and run some of the machines when the white man took a break?

TERRELL: I don't know 'bout that cause that was after I left there, when the 00:16:00blacks started running the machines. I don't know nothing 'bout that.

STONEY: I think we're done.

HELFAND: Ok.

STONEY: Thank you very much. Ok.

[Silence]

M1: Quiet please!

[Silence]

(inaudible conversation)

TERREL: You alright this morning?

STONEY: Just --

MCKINLEY MARCHMAN: Keep the cap on?

STONEY: Sure.

MARCHMAN: You don't want to see this old bald head do you?

STONEY: No, no, just talk to Mr. Terrell

MARCHMAN: I've been going pretty good. Had a little cold, but it's about gone. 00:19:00Yeah. I didn't make it out to church Sunday.

STONEY: You want to turn more to him as if your talking to him a little bit more. Turn your whole body. No that way--

MARCHMAN: Oh, I'm talking to you. Yeah, I didn't get over there. We had company on Father's Day, you know, all the grandkids and everything. They were there, so I didn't make it over there. Yeah. (inaudible)?

TERREL: Yeah, Tommy and his wife. (inaudible) Uh hum.

MARCHMAN: Had a nice bit of rain last night, didn't we?

TERREL: Yeah.

MARCHMAN: (inaudible) I think we might get some more rain this afternoon.

TERREL: Yeah, we might.

MAARCHMAN: We've had it, hadn't we?

TERREL: Yeah, we've had plenty of rain, we surely have.

MARCHMAN: (inaudible) beginning to get sort of hard, the ground, and so much rain, 'bout baked, you know, the water stood there so long?

TERREL: Yes.

MARCHMAN: I tried to plow in the garden a little bit -- really hard.

TERREL: Hard, uh hum.

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MARCHMAN: Uh hum. And the people was there, wasn't they?

TERREL: Yeah, they was there.

MARCHMAN: I look for it, too. That's a big family affair.

TERREL: A big family.

STONEY: Alright sir if you could look a little bit more at the --

M2: How the crops coming?

MARCHMAN: A little more talk?

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MARCHMAN: Yeah, a lot of rain and they're playing pretty good baseball. I don't know how long it's going to last, though. They've lost three straight. (inaudible)

M1: 5 they lost 5.

MARCHMAN: Yeah, they'd better get back in there. They were playing good they first came out of spring training.

TERREL: Yeah.

MARCHMAN: Well, I think they won 'em all. (inaudible) They've been there about 30 years -- 25, at least.

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STONEY: Alright.

MARCHMAN: (inaudible)

M2: Just stay in that place right there.

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M2: And come around the corner.

[Silence]

M2: And good. You can just go an put the clippers back down where they belong.

M2:A couple more whacks, that's it and anytime and go put them down.

MARCHMAN: (inaudible)

M2: And go. And put them down. Great.

STONEY: About growing up in Hogansville and what the blacks did in the mills when you were a child.

MARCHMAN: Tell you how many?

STONEY: No. Just tell me about growing up in Hogansville and what blacks did in the mill when you were a child.

MARCHMAN: Yeah. Oh, yeah. They's scrubbing down there, wasn't no scrubbing machines then.

STONEY: Start, "When I grew up in Hogansville."

MARCHMAN: Yeah. (inaudible)

STONEY: Start, you say, we got to hear the whole sentence. So you say when -- start off by saying, "When I grew up in Hogansville."

MARCHMAN: All right. Well, when I grew up in Hogansville, they was a-scrubbing the mill at that time with mops. There wasn't no machines, scrubbing machines. Elderly women mostly mopped the floor. We'd mop, tho the water, come back, but now, later on, that was scrubbing machines. And they was paying us (inaudible) washing and sweeping, that's it. Sweeping and scrubbing, that what (inaudible). And outdoors was where the yard men worked, you know, colored mostly.

F1: I'll be back, its hot.

MARCHMAN: And, ah, it sure is hot. And about 15 cents an hour was what they was paying then.

F1: I'll be, I'll be back.

MARCHMAN: And, ah, that was pretty good pay. Now that was a little better than a dollar a day, 12 hours, though. 15 cents an hour (inaudible), but wasn't nobody paying much. (inaudible) Well, on the machines, they was making a little more, but --

STONEY: Well now, why didn't the blacks work inside as weavers and so forth and so on?

MARCHMAN: Why didn't they? That's what we always wanted to know.

STONEY: Just say that. "Black couldn't do this and that's what we wanted to know."

MARCHMAN: Well, of course, it was some things that a black couldn't do because they didn't have any education. You got to know how to do anything to be trusted with it, especially, you know, machines and things like that. And if you did know, you wouldn't get a job in Hogansville not doing that. You might go down to LaGrange and a little further over -- not down there. And, ah, it 00:27:00was once said when it started doing a little better, nobody could bring a hundred dollars' pay home a week, never would happen, and it just about didn't. But we -- we got by somehow or n'other. You take a little money and buy a heap of groceries back then. It wasn't as high as it is now, of course. House rent was pretty cheap, but you -- you 'bout heard this story before now, but I'm trying to tell you just like it was. There wasn't nothing to do. Glad to get to sweeping and women, they worked a lot of ladies there. And they would pick waste. That's something they would do. If waste (inaudible) or cotton would get dirty or strings in it, they'd spread it out on a table and when they wasn't mopping, they'd go over there and pick all of the white strings out of that 00:28:00stuff and get it and run it through there and run it back through in real cotton. And that's what they done down there.

STONEY: Why didn't they spin and all that?

MARCHMAN: Hum?

STONEY: Why didn't the blacks spin and weave and so forth?

MARCHMAN: Why didn't? They didn't know how.

STONEY: Could they have learned?

MARCHMAN: They do it now. They did. I'm not trying to be smart, but they didn't know how. Weave, that's something that they didn't know how. And the weaving department, which I worked in the weaving department all the time I was there. I first went there sweeping. Then I went to laying up -- taking off 00:29:00cloth, big drop to make. You take it off, haul it on a chainhorse, which you pull up by your hand -- now it's another -- we got it now to where they stop (inaudible) 2,000 pounds and (inaudible) and things, you pulled it up with your hand and put it on a dolly and carried it. But now they got those tracks run over from here to (inaudible) put it right up and roll it on the trucks yonder and carry it down anywhere you want to carry it, just let it down. And that was a -- that was a great help. And then they paid a little more then. And then I went to laying up warps and then I didn't -- (inaudible) three years 'fore I retired. They's a white guy retired and I was the oldest (inaudible) that come up for that job, was greasing and fixing looms and for fixing shelves. And I worked on that job. I think they was paying me $3.00 -- the minimum wage of 00:30:00$3.35. That's more'n I made all time I was at the mill. But I --