Etta Mae Zimmerman and Roger Zimmerman Interview 2

 GEORGE STONEY: -- how it got to be typed, Etta Mae. Could you tell how he wrote it?

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: (inaudibible)

STONEY: I tell you, can you read the last one and then read the date on it?

M1: The date?

STONEY: And then Etta Mae you tell us how he wrote it.

M1: The date is, ah, January the 14th, 1935, and the, "If you can answer this letter and explain your position, I would be pleased to receive an answer, but if you cannot do this, I don't care to hear from you. My address is International Street, Hogansville, Georgia. J.M. Zimmerman."

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: If he got an answer, I don't remember. Leona says he did, but I know -- I told him that night Gene Talmadge wouldn't never see that letter, they'd just throw it away. And he said, well, he bet he would see it. 00:01:00Now I don't know who he got to type it. I didn't know it was typed.

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: Well, if he answered it, it would be in the archives, in the Georgia archives.

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: Well, he made a lot of mistakes. He wanted to spell some big words. Boy, he wanted to make it big.

M1: It doesn't indicate who typed it.

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: Wanted to call him malicious. Let me see, what was that? And a liar.

STONEY: Okay. Now here's a letter which your grandfather wrote to Mr. Roosevelt. Now so you just repeat what I said.

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: All right. Ah, "To F" --

STONEY: No just say here's a letter.

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: Oh, here's a letter that my grandfather wrote to Franklin Delano Roosevelt. This is dated December the 28th, 1935. "Mr. President F.D. 00:02:00Roosevelt, Washington, D.C. Dear sir, I am writing you a few lines in order to tell you a few things. I am a poor man, have worked hard all my life for a livelihood. I have always believed in the brotherhood of man. I was reared on a farm. My father was uneducated. He could to read, not write, but was an honest and a successful farmer. My mother was also uneducated. The first school I ever attended, she attended with me. They taught me that honesty was the best policy and I have endeavored to live honestly in the sight of all men, as much as possible, live peaceably with all men. I believe in the principles of Christianity, but I do not believe in every kind of religion or sect called Christianity, but 'As you would -- men should do unto you, do you even unto 00:03:00them.' I was never under arrest in my life until during the textile strike when Talmadge sent troops to Newnan, Georgia and had men and women, including my daughter and myself, placed in a detention camp. We were herded in like cattle, the women in a barn and the men in a barbed-wire pen. Guards were placed around us with guns. This was not because we had committed any crimes or violence, but because he wished to break the strike and keep us in slavery to the mill owners. If the mill owners had complied with the code, we would not have had a strike. I wish you could visit these mills in person or in the person of a spy. You could learn the true conditions of things. I think we had the strike almost won when you had it called off with the understanding the mediation board would settle the trouble after a fair investigation of the mill owners, you said, are 00:04:00commanded that they would return all strikers to work without discrimination. Now what has been done about it? Nothing. We are in worse conditions now than before the strike. Mill owners have defied the law and your orders. Part of the workers have had to continue to almost starve and part of them were returned to work and fired in a few days on account of union affiliations. Some of them have had it -- had to go to work on the -- what -- CWA for" --

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: PWA.

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: Hum?

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: "PWA for 15 and 20 cents per hour and only get a few hours per week or month. They cannot find, much less -- they cannot feed, much less clothe, their families. What is this country coming to? As long as people only get a few hours per week to work and are made to give an extortion profit on all 00:05:00that they've produced and pay the same profit on all that they buy, what are they to do? They must either take something, steal something or, if they can, buy something on account and never pay for it. All this is bad. There ought to be some plan devised by which the workers can protect themselves against the extortions. I think there could be. I thought you had a plan. I think that every child born into the world should have equal opportunities at the resources of life according to their ability. I herewith include a copy of a letter that I addressed to Eugene Talmadge several days ago, but he not replied to me. Of course, I did not expect a reply. I do not think if we had the proper form of government we could be happy." Excuse me. "I do think if we had the proper form of government, we could be happy. We have the resources of life, land, and 00:06:00machinery and everything else we need to produce the necessities of life, but a few have cornered on all the resources of life, land and everything else. So they take a profit on all we produce and make us pay a profit on all we buy. Therefore, the producers cannot feed, clothe, and school his children as they (inaudible) the people and there should be a limit on the amount of land anyone should possess. No one should be allowed to possess more land than he or his immediate family can cultivate and pasture and for wood purposes, and I think that much in everyone's right that comes into the world. Under such a form of government, everyone could have a place for his home and family. He would always have something to do if he wished to work, but as long as the workers have no home, nor land, they must be robbed of most of what they produce. This will continue to produce crime and disrespect for law because they know that a 00:07:00lot of laws are unjust and unequal and the wealth of the world continues to concentrate into the hands of the few. We claim to have a democratic or republican form of government, but you know we haven't any such government. Our present form of government, under existing laws, is monopolistic and capitalistic. We must get back to a democratic and majority rule instead of a minority rule by the rich or rich and poor alike will soon be no more so far as this world is concerned. I think it's a shame to know that our mothers of this land are forced to go into the mills and other places of employment in order to help their husbands support their families because the workers have never had a fair deal." (coughs) "Mothers are forced to leave their children many times with negro women with whom they would not, but who they just help with their 00:08:00husbands when they cannot get work in order to get by. I'm not so well educated, but I have common sense. Sincerely yours, J.M. Zimmerman." And, you know, he said he wasn't an educated man, but he was self-educated and he probably read as much and kept up with politics --

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: Papa taught school.

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: -- as much as anybody.

ETTA MAE ZIMMER: Papa taught school right after that.

ROGER ZIMMMERMAN: But what he's saying is not a democratic government; he's talking about socialism.

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: Yeah.

STONEY: He's describing conditions there which, ah, almost everybody we've talked to here --

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: They was pitiful, they really were.

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: But now, talking 'bout working hard, I'd rather worked in the mill than the field if I'd have had my choice. I'd rather worked in the spinning room than in the cotton fields.

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: Why?

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: Well, just didn't like to pick cotton.

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: That's a good reason.

STONEY: Now this is -- and all of you tell me this -- he describes conditions there of not only exploitation, but he describes discrimination which a lot of people are denying now.

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: Yeah.

STONEY: Why is that contradiction? Here's somebody whom you knew and you had respect for say one thing and yet everybody we've talked to says something else. Why is that?

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: Well, I -- I don't know why Papa thought working in the mill was so terrible because he let us go to work at 14. Papa was a good man, honest man. That's the way he felt about it, but I never did feel like I was so poor I didn't have nothing to eat. I always had plenty to eat and as much to wear as anybody.

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: Everybody you knew was in the same boat.

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: I never did feel sorry for myself.

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: You don't know you're -- you're poor unless you see somebody who's rich, and you didn't see anybody that was rich.

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: In East Newnan, if somebody new come to the mill to work and the ones in that department didn't know who they were, they went and asked who they were and where they come from. So we all know -- we knew each other at East Newnan, just about all of 'em.

STONEY: Who do you think he was talking for when he said those things?

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: Honestly, I don't know.

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: I think he was talking for hisself. You know, I've heard a lot of stories about my grandfather.

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: Now Papa never worked in the mill hisself.

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: And Aunt Mae and them know that I don't agree with a lot of the positions he took. He was a hard man. He was very -- is stubborn a good 00:11:00word? He's hard, pig-headed? I mean he made up his mind and nothing in the world would change it.

STONEY: What about Mr. Baker? Can you describe him?

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: He was a nice fella, but they did lay him off. That's true. I don't know as it -- did that refer to the union?

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: They said he -- it said that he would not give the union members hell like he was told to do and he was laid off because he wouldn't do it.

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: Well now, this is the way I heard it. They was -- ah, Mr. Crouder? and the man that worked downstairs -- Mr. Crouder(?) was overseer and the man that worked downstairs -- wait a minute. That was after --

M1: That was after --

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: They was two men worked -- worked Mr. Baker out of a job to give Eugene Williams -- I mean Gene Williams his place. They lived next door out there. That's what Mrs. Baker told me.

STONEY: Are you suggesting that there was another reason for Mr. Baker losing his job?

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: Well, that's what Miss Baker told me, that it was between -- they just wanted to give Eugene his -- I mean Gene Williams his job and Mr. (inaudible) I mean he got drunk. They had somebody watching and Mr. Baker got drunk and they fired him.

STONEY: We were talking to a gentleman today who said that there was a lot of snitching in the mills.

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: What kind of snitching?

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: Telling on each other.

F1: Telling stories.

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: People telling stories on each other.

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: I didn't know nothing 'bout that either.

STONEY: What do you think he meant by that?

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: I don't know.

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: Who was it?

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: I always had friends in the mill and I practically knew everybody that worked in the department I did.

STONEY: How long after you went to Atlanta did you start working back in the mills?

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: As soon as I got home.

STONEY: Now could you say that so, in a complete sentence, so I don't have to hear my voice.

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: I went back to work when we got home from Atlanta. (coughs)

STONEY: And did people talk to you?

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: Some of 'em. Some of 'em. They was friction. It wasn't anything -- I mean they didn't tell you how they felt, but you -- you knowed how 00:14:00they felt. In the church, in the neighborhood, and in the mill, the ones that wasn't for the union was dead set against it. (inaudible) Ruby McCur, neighbor next door, out to rest one day and she said, "You mean to tell me you going to let that old union girl work and sending me out?" (inaudible)

STONEY: Okay. I want to change the subject. I want each of you to tell me the funniest story that you recall about --

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STONEY: Okay. Now could you think back to Hogansville in that time and can you tell us some stories that could give the audience some idea of what it was like to live here. I'd like to have it funny or humorous, if you could, about the band, about the movies, about your parties, anything like that. And when did you come to Hogansville?

F1: 1951.

STONEY: Oh, that's a little late. Okay.

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: I don't know if I -- you know, I was born in '42 and I don't remember too many of those old stories, I guess. Most of the stories I heard or I know of, I heard. But, ah, the funniest story's gotta be about Papa's race. My grandfather, Uncle Renda's(?) father, who was C.J. Parham, and Papa Zimmerman were about the same age and they called each other "Old Man Zimmerman" and "Old 00:17:00Man Parham", although neither one of 'em would admit they were the oldest. So they decided they were going to have a race one day to see who was the oldest and they were going to run around the block and Papa Zimmerman just took off like a house a-fire, running away, and, ah, Big Daddy, he's just plodding along. Well, Papa Zimmerman got tired and had to sit down.

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: He got a coughing spell.

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: Yeah, and Big Daddy passed him and won. So it's kind of like the tortoise and the hare. You know, people didn't have television or anything.

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: Papa had chronic bronchitis when he took a coughing spell.

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: And Big Daddy passed him!

M1: And Daddy Parham was the Talmadge man and Mr. Zimmerman was opposed to it and they fought. Oh, it would get loud when they would argue about -- of course, nobody ever won.

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: Well, Boots and Leona married. Several different ones told 00:18:00Boots and Leona that Papa and Mr. Parham better not meet each other in a car.

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: They both drove right down the middle of the road and wouldn't move over for nobody. But they really liked each other. But Mama, my mother, says if they were talking and they agreed on something, then one of 'em would switch sides just so they could argue. They would absolutely not agree.

ETTA MAE ZIMMER: Different politics. Mr. Parham was for 'em, Papa was against 'em. Papa was for 'em, Mr. Parham was against it.

ROGER ZIMMMERMAN: And if they were both for 'em, one of 'em turned against it.

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: But now as far as when we first moved here, ah, I'd lived at East Newnan nine years and I just didn't care nothing 'bout (inaudible). I was homesick, but I wouldn't admit it. But all of the rest of 'em go over here to the picture show on -- I think it was Wednesday night.

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: At the community building?

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: So now I didn't care nothing 'about going to the picture show, so Ruben married 'bout -- I think we'd been here about 8 months. And he married a girl the same age as me. So I - me and her'd go -- I'd go down to Louise's and we'd make candy or pop popcorn or something like that for all the rest of 'em. When they'd come from the picture show, they'd stop and eat ice cream at the drugstore, but I -- I stayed at home most of the time.

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: I think Louise was like a member of the family. She still comes back from California and instead of staying with her family, she stays with Aunt Mae and Mama 'cause she was like a sister instead of a sister-in-law.

JUDITH HELFAND: I, I, have some questions.

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STONEY: -- wanted to help the person on the next shift.

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: Never did want to leave a job behind.

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: She was also the fighter in the family.

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: I don't know why I acquired that name.

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: She would run off from school and touch the back door step and then go back --

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: Front door step.

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: Front door step, excuse me, and nobody'd mess with any of the 11 Zimmermans because this one took care of 'em. That was a long time ago, wasn't it, Aunt Mae?

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: Yeah. Well --

GEORGE STONEY: Ok--

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ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: -- in the daytime and Mama taught him at night. But he did like to read and after he quit teaching school, he was a -- wasn't ever 00:21:00ordained, but he was a Methodist preacher.

HELFAND: You were probably 14 years old. You were working in the store. Etta Mae once told me that -- that the news of them all getting herded up and sent to Fort MacPherson spread about this mill village rather quickly. And I'm wondering if you could talk about that, if you recall that.

M1: I don't. I don't recall it. I know -- I knew they were there and that they were in Fort Mac, they were in a bobbed -- we heard they were in a bobbed-wire fence in Fort Mac.

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: I wasn't in no bobbed-wire fence.

M1: Well, that's what we heard here. I didn't know where they were, but that's what we heard, but we didn't -- that's all I knew about it. I didn't hear anything else.

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: But now we had a supervisor. That hasn't been explained. The day after we got there -- we got there that evening -- and we didn't have a supervisor that night, but Miss Howell come out the next day. She was a police 00:22:00woman and she cared -- she looked after us best she could. (laughs) But they changed -- they had a guard in front of the barn all the time.

HELFAND: Could you any of you -- Renda, you were here, you were here and I'm sure you can imagine -- how do you think this affected this community?

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: Renda was a little boy.

HELFAND: Okay.

M1: I was 14. I wasn't too little. I wasn't too small.

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: I didn't know you was that old.

HELFAND: In terms of intimidation, how did them being arrested like that --

M1: Didn't affect me, that I knew about.

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: Papa made it sound terrible, but --

M1: It didn't -- it didn't affect anybody in town about that. We didn't think -- hold it against 'em or shun 'em for that, that I remember. I don't remember, 'cause I -- we were -- we were up here at the store up the head of the street here. And I --

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: They even wanted Mr. Parham to join the union in those days. The men that organized asked merchants and everybody else, anybody they could get.

M1: But as far as knowing who was a member of the union and not, I remember I don't even remember. I don't remember who was rabid(?) in the union. I don't remember anybody that was a union member. I didn't know who they were.

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: I think people saw it as a way of helping to improve things here rather than join -- you know, I keep saying --

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: But now --

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: -- instead of joining the union and trying to -- to help everything, they thought, "If I can join this, then I can get better working conditions" and actually what they were looking for were hours. They just weren't getting any hours in the mill. They didn't have any money.

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: Running short time a lot.

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: Yeah.

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: But now as far as they keep a-telling how poor we were –

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: No poorer than anybody else, were you?

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: -- we -- now when I come home from school, I'd have to change outta my school dress and go -- go to the mill. I started going' to the mill when I was 9 years old to help (inaudible). But as far as not having any clothes, we didn't have a lot of things, but it seemed everybody's was about the same is what I'm trying to say. I didn't think like being in no -- like Papa's letter read like we was almost slaves. I didn't look at it like that 'cause I had a good time in the mill. If we couldn't -- if we didn't have a party scheduled somewhere, we'd give somebody a surprise party.

HELFAND: Why did you join the union then?

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: To help working conditions. That's what it was for.

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: Did you join it because of Pop?

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: I don't know, but I know Papa wasn't supposed to join. Mr. -- Mr. Parham, he didn't join it. But they took anybody in they could get on the roll.

M1: These organizers --

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: Didn't matter who it was.

M1: -- the organizers that came -- I know they had the organizers there, but evidently, ah, convinced Homer -- Homer to ---

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: They tried to get some of the merchants uptown to join.

M1: -- to -- was the leader among the people in --

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: Well, Homer was a good leader. It was those two men that come to organize I'm talking about. Homer and Leola spent all their savings.

M1: Yeah, they did.

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: -- trying to keep it a-going. But getting back to working conditions, ah, I went to the mill -- I mean I went to help Lovella and Carrie. And when they put me on the job, they had to running this better cotton and you was supposed to twist the ends up in the spinning room, where I'd adapt 'em. So I had to go back and learn over, but I was put on a job when I went to work. Of course, I had to go back and learn how to twist up the ends.

M1: Should have never quit twisting 'em up.

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: I know.

M1: Whether it was good or bad cotton, never should have quit that practice.

HELFAND: Roger, how long have you been aware that your family, they just didn't get arrested (inaudible)?

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: I've probably know it -- I don't know. I may have been 20 first time I remember hearing the story. But, like I said, the story was something funny because here's Aunt Mae, who doesn't do anything, and the first time I remember the story of her getting arrested it was just unbelievable. You know, there's a lot of people in the family that you could have said, "Well, yeah, they may have," but this would have been the last one -- her and Mama. (laughter)

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STONEY: Ok, you want to ask that again?

HELFAND: Yeah, before you roll.

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ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: I don't work. I -- I retired when I's 63 years old. I'll be 95 September.

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: Eight-five.

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: (laughs) Eighty-five. (laughs)

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: Don't get old on me.

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: I don't work, Judy. I stay at Leona's most of the time.

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: Yeah. Even knowing about it, I don't guess I ever really think about it as anything but just a little blip there that they were frustrated, and I understand their frustration, and they just wanted things better and this was a way of doing it. Ah --

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: Well, Roosevelt was wanting people to organize. Said it over and over.

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: Yeah, but what he wanted you to do, I believe, was organize but not get involved --

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: How you going --

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: But, Aunt Mae, the way politicians talk and do things don't really have anything to do with real life. Ah, Roosevelt, Gene Talmadge, they 00:29:00did what they wanted to do or what the money told 'em they should do.

M1: Like they still --

ROGER ZIMMMERMAN: Like Bush is doing now. You know, Gene Talmadge says, "I'll never send out the Guard against the strikers," but he did the day after he was arrested. So that was just talk.

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: He put boys to work and girls to work.

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: You know, if I'd been back then, I would have probably -- I'd been on that truck with 'em. Or at least I would like to think I would have.

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: This man was on short time 18 months.

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: I never heard of anybody having problems with each other because of that strike. It just -- once it was over, once things started getting better, people got back to work, it just dissolved.

F1: It's just a fact of history.

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: Yeah it's just, just--

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: Didn't do us too much good.

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: Just kind of like getting caught doing something, but everybody forgives you, you know.

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: Well, I'm not sorry. (inaudible)

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: I didn't mean that, but nobody's holding a grudge that I knew about.

F1: Or discussed it.

M1: Down through the years, we've had --

ROGER ZIMMERMAN: I wonder if that's why they didn't discuss it. I wonder if it 00:30:00wasn't that important afterward or if maybe they didn't want to discuss it because they may be talking to somebody on the opposite side.

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: Well, I let people know that I didn't care who knowed that I joined the union because I was for it. I still am.

ROGER ZIMMMERMAN: But what you were far, you wasn't --

STONEY: Uh, could you say that again?

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: I joined it because I believed in it.

M1: But when they had the organizing and down through the years right on up --

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: (inaudible)

M1: But did you ever join the union when they came back on several occasions? I'd say half a dozen occasions they came back and tried to organize again.

ETTA MAE ZIMMERMAN: Nobody ever asked me to join.

M1: And after all these organizing instances we've had since that time in 1934, the -- the people in the mill, after they had the strike vote and the union was beat