Lucille Thornburgh Interview 9

LUCILLE THORNBURGH: Oh, now, as soon as we cross the railroad track here, is where the old Standard Knitting Mill was, that we were never able to organize. Every time a union or a factory or anything around here would get a raise, the Standard Knitting Mill would give their employees a raise, and that, that was where it was, and it was one of the largest mills. Well, it was actually one of the largest mills around.

HELFAND: Was that a goal of yours, to try to organize the Standard?

THORNBURGH: Oh yes, because they had 1,800 employees, more organizers, more money was wasted, and it really was wasted, because we never did get it organized. You get those employees there, every concession that was granted to 00:01:00the union, the Standard would give to their employees, to keep them from organizing.

HELFAND: Do you want to get in the back?

[break in video]

M1: Ready when you are.

THORNBURGH: Yeah, now the first car that's come by.

M1: Isn't that always the way? We just need some of this, over by this.

HELFAND: Lucille, I keep thinking about what you said about, this is my home and I was going to stay here.

THORNBURGH: That's right. Don't let them run you off.

[Silence]

THORNBURGH: Now we're coming onto Magnolia Avenue, which is one of our thoroughfares, throughways. I'm giving that guy a chance to get out, but I don't believe he's going to get out. No, he's going to go back up in there and let me go by. He's a nice guy, as nice guys go I guess.

HELFAND: So Lucille, what's a typical week like for you?

THORNBURGH: Working four hours a day and going to meetings. I don't do as much of that though, as I used to, because I'm afraid to drive at night by myself. I'm not afraid of my driving, but I sure am afraid if something happened to the car, you go up and knock on somebody's door, you're liable to get shot. So I 00:04:00don't go to as many night meetings now as I used to, and I know a lot of people who are years younger than I am, who don't take that chance either. Knoxville has a very high crime rate.

HELFAND: When was the last time you had gone back down to that community like we did today, near that mill?

THORNBURGH: Oh, I don't, I don't go that way often at all, because we have a good shopping mall out in my area now, and that would be going toward West Knoxville, and I just don't go down that way often. I don't have any business down that way, except I go down there and turn there, at that Cherokee Plaza, to go to church, head over to Kingston Pike to go to church, I go that way. And I 00:05:00don't go to church every Sunday, so.

HELFAND: But when you turn in the Cherokee Plaza, what do you think?

THORNBURGH: I think you've come a long way, baby, from what we were. Still see them old strikers out there with their picket signs.

HELFAND: Are you glad you stayed here in Knoxville?

THORNBURGH: Yeah, this, this was home. I always intended to come back here, wherever I, wherever I went. My parents were here and what family I had was here. So this was home.

HELFAND: Do you think they would have been happy if you left town for good, Lucille?

THORNBURGH: Who, my family?

HELFAND: No.

THORNBURGH: Me?

HELFAND: No, the city.

THORNBURGH: Yeah, the city now, the city might have.

HELFAND: Can you say that?

THORNBURGH: But they've got very friendly with me now, the mayor is a good friend of mine, which certainly wasn't happening during the strike.

F: Isn't that funny, the way things change, Lucille?

THORNBURGH: Yeah, oh yes. Oh, the mayor came out to my house and spent an afternoon, when he was wanting to get reelected, would I help him. And I did, because he's a good mayor. That can show you how people can change. Our mayor now is Victor Ashe, and his father was old Herbert Ashe, that owned the Ashe Hosiery Mill. Most reactionary old bastard that ever lived, and here Victor is, he's very progressive, a very liberal minded mayor.

F: So now the town of Knoxville looks up to you.

THORNBURGH: Yeah, yeah! Make them, give -- what is that guy says? I don't get 00:07:00no respect. Now these ah, I remind them, I remind these office holders every once in a while that senior citizens out-vote the college students almost three-to-one, did you know that? That sort of makes them sit up and think. Nearly every one of them that comes out now, they'll say something about what they're going to do for the senior citizens, and they didn't used to say that. You know it's kind of nice though, working with them. They've got nothing to lose, they're going to get their social security check anyway. They're a lot more liberal than, the young, [break in video] they speak out, where social 00:08:00security is the greatest social program that has ever come down the pike. Nothing will ever be quite as great as social security. Now, here's the old labor temple, there she is. It doesn't look much different, well it doesn't look any different from when I left over here. Right there is their same old entrance, that's where we entered, right there, those double doors. There's the painter's union. Oh, I see where they must be. They must have endorsed Robert Brandon.

HELFAND: Go a little bit.

[break in video]

THORNBURGH: Come on buddy, I won't block you much longer. That old Savage Company has certainly ruined whatever looks the labor temple might have had.

HELFAND: You could drive a little faster, Lucille.

THORNBURGH: OK, tell me when.

[break in video]

THORNBURGH: Am I too slow or too fast?

M1: You can go a little faster.

THORNBURGH: Yeah, you haven't got anything to snap here anyway.

HELFAND: Just keep on driving. You can go a little faster.

THORNBURGH: Now, I have to stop.

[break in video]

HELFAND: This is your town, Lucille.

THORNBURGH: Yeah, big deal, big deal.

F: Lucille, when you were in New York or Washington, D.C., did you ever think about wanting to stay there?

THORNBURGH: I never did want to stay in Washington. I would still like to live in New York, I love New York.

F: So when you grow up, maybe you'll move to New York?

THORNBURGH: Wow, this looks like a rough street through here, wonder what they're doing. Yeah, maybe some time I'll get to move back to New York. Wouldn't that be something? I love New York. Friendliest people, no matter what people tell me, I say they're the friendliest, nicest people in the world. And you know a think I like about New York, when I was there, I was on a pretty good salary and an expense account when I was working for the labor movement there, and I didn't have to pinch pennies too much, but I used to eat a lot in 00:12:00the automat, because I wanted to, but I found out there, I could get a meal for 35 cents in the automat. I could go two or three more blocks, to another place, and maybe dinner would be $25 even then, you know, at some of those very high class places? And then there was everything in-between 35 cents and $25 dollars. You have such a choice in New York, choices that you don't have.

[break in video]

HELFAND: It's pretty back there.

THORNBURGH: I didn't know this street was so banged up like this or I wouldn't have come this way. Don't you like New York, don't you like to live there?

HELFAND: Of course.

M1: Yeah.

THORNBURGH: I would too, I love New York.

M1: You can come visit any time you want, you've got a place to stay.

THORNBURGH: Good, good.

F: If you do move, you've got tons of friends there.

HELFAND: She'll stay with me.

THORNBURGH: Oh, I love New York, there's everything there, that's the nice part of it, everything is there.

F: You mean Knoxville doesn't have everything?

THORNBURGH: No. We're getting to have more things. You know, at the time I worked in New York, there was a lot of things that we didn't have in Knoxville. I remember, I used to bring things home.

[break in video]

THORNBURGH: The next turn we make, we'll be onto Cecil.

F: Lucille, did your sisters and your brother stay in Knoxville too?

THORNBURGH: No, not really. My oldest sister Mary moved to Florida, after she 00:14:00got married the second time, and ah, my sister Ruth, she moved to Florida. But my two younger sisters, they both lived here all their lives. Come on, come on, I have to wait for that light to change on Broadway. I wish they'd cut that shrubbery down. I don't know why it bothers me, it's not even my business. Come on, come on, buddy, let's go. Now, we're in my block almost, and don't take -- hey, have they move that garbage out of the front yard? They did move some of it, I reported it, that house there.

HELFAND: Keep on going, Lucille.

THORNBURGH: Keep going, OK. Now, I won't drive in there so far, it will be hard for you all to get out. How's that? (arrives back home; turns off car) How is that for a trip?

[break in video]

THORNBURGH: Now, I don't want to limp, I don't want you to see me limping, so I'm going to walk straight in the house. We shall walk right straight into the house, but let's get our mail first. Now we're in, dark in here. [break in 00:16:00video] There we go.

HELFAND: You know what?

[break in video]

M1: It's rolling.

THORNBURGH: Frances Gorman.

M1: You've got to look at her.

THORNBURGH: Oh, look at her when I look up.

HELFAND: Is that chair going to be a part of this.

M1: No.

THORNBURGH: It makes a little noise.

M1: If it makes too much noise, we'll be able to work with it.

THORNBURGH: Yeah, OK, OK.

M1: I think it's OK so far.

THORNBURGH: Start off, are we ready?

HELFAND: Being secretary, you know, I was constantly corresponding.

THORNBURGH: Let me say that other, say this other first. Ready? Frances Gorman was the vice president of the National Textile Workers Union. Later, he was 00:17:00also the chairman of the strike committee. I was the recording secretary of our local here, Number 1758, and he had written us a letter, asking us specifically about the conditions, about the conditions in the mill. I think he wanted specifics on that, and I sent him this letter, which I think details what was happening at Cherokee Spinning Company at the time. "Dear Mr. Gorman. I received your communication today, of the research department, and I want to say that I agree with you in ever respect. There is chiseling throughout the textile industry. Now this is not guesswork or supposition with me. I don't think the chiseling is with the minority, but the majority. At Cherokee Spinning Company, and I work there, the girls in the cone winding department have been put on a flat rate of $12 a week. It takes several weeks to learn on 00:18:00twisters. The department where I work, in work on a universal winder, is the most technical of all winders, and believe me, we have to work like hell to make $12 a week. We work on piecework, 40/1 pays $3.03 per hundred pound, and to run 79 pounds in eight hours takes very hard work. The spinners can't make more than $12 and here is a case, my local took up with the overseer regarding the spinners. Before the code days the spinners here at Cherokee, were running from five to eight sides, with two spinners running ten sides. Since the code, they have put all the spinners on ten sides, saying the standard for spinning was ten sides. Now not any of the spinners get more than four days per week, and they have to run ten sides to make the minimum. We dropped the matter, but I never 00:19:00could see that it was right. I will get you plenty of information regarding the chiseling. When I bring it before the meeting Saturday, I will ask a member from each department to contribute some information. We're glad to have the chance to bring this up. In regards to other textile plants around here, the Appalachian Mills Company is paying the minimum wage all right, but they tell those girls, if they don't get the required production, they will be cut to 15 cents per hour. Their production base is so high, I can't see how the girls ever get it in any department. They have such mean and inhuman foremen at the Appalachian, it is a disgrace, decent people have to work in such joints. I can't understand why some of the United Textile Workers organizers don't get busy with this place. I've heard several employees say there, that they'd 00:20:00joined the union, they would only have to be asked. There is one department that I am sure would go a hundred percent for a union, and others are bound to follow. We have had a little row in the central union here, over Frank [Torley?] calling the organizers for the amalgamated and other unions, communists, and Brother Cooper, organizer for our textile workers, seems to think the publicity over this case has slowed down organization work, but I don't think so. The people I have talked to from Appalachia, didn't even read it in the papers, and I'm very much interested in getting this place organized. It is entirely too close to Cherokee not to be organized. Of course it's going to take tact, technique and what have you, to get the official -- to get the official there, but a good high pressure organizer could do it. They have 00:21:00railroaded some of their best like foremen, and right now would be a swell time to organize them. They have 1,500 employees right now, and that is the one job that can't afford to be bungled, but a good organizer could go right through with it. I'll get all the information I can and send it to you at once. With kind regards, I am fraternally yours. I signed it as recording secretary of Local 1758."

HELFAND: Can you read the end again and say --

[break in video]

THORNBURGH: The department where I was.

HELFAND: That's everything.

THORNBURGH: Yeah, that's everything.

M1: I think we'll be --

HELFAND: Let me know.

M1: OK. Look at her.

THORNBURGH: I forget that. Frances Gorman, the vice president of the textile workers national union, later the strike chairman, sent out a letter from the research department of the national union, to all of the unions affiliated with them, asking them about the conditions in the mill and what was going on there. He wanted to have this immediately, so as recording secretary of Local 1758, I sent him a letter on April 11, 1934. This is what I told Frances. (reads letter) "I received your communication today, of the research department, and I want to say that I agree with you in every respect. There is chiseling throughout the textile industry. Now this is not guesswork or supposition with me. I don't think the chiseling is with the minority, but with the majority. The department where I work, in work on a universal winding department, is the most technical of all winders, and believe me, we have to work like hell to make $12 00:23:00a week. We work on piecework, on 40/1 yarn. It pays $3.03 per hundred pound, and to run 79 pounds in eight hours takes very hard work. Now, I will get you plenty of information regarding the chiseling, because there's plenty of it going on. When I bring it before the meeting Saturday, I will ask each member from each department, I will ask a member from each department, to contribute some information, and we're glad to have the chance to bring this up. Now in regard to other textile plants around here, the Appalachian Mills Company is paying the minimum wage all right, but they tell those girls, that if they don't get the right -- get the required production, they will be cut to 15 cents per hour. Their production base is so high, I can't see how the girls ever get it 00:24:00in any department. I can't understand why some of the United Textile Workers organizers don't get busy and organize this place. I've heard several employees say that they would be glad to join the union, if they just knew how and somebody would ask them. There is one department that I am sure would go a hundred percent if they were just asked. Of course, it's going to take some tact, technique, and what have you, to get the official there, but a good high pressure organizer could do it. They have railroaded some of their best like foremen, and right now would be a swell time to organize them. They have 1,500 employees right now, and that is the one job that can't afford to be bungled, but a good organizer could go right through with it. I will get all the information I can and send it to you at once. With best regards, I am 00:25:00fraternally yours, Lucille Thornburgh, Recording Secretary of Local 1758.

HELFAND: Did you get a response?

M2: Did we get it?

M1: Let me ask if we could do -- OK.

THORNBURGH: The letter was sent to Frances J. Gorman, Vice President of the International Union of Textile Workers, at 303 Bible House, New York, New York. This letter that I sent to him was dated April 11, 1934.

M1: Can you read the first sentence just one more time, just the first sentence of the letter.

HELFAND: You know what, just, without an introduction, just say April 11, 1934, and then his -- and then, and then Dear Mr. Gorman.

[break in video]

HELFAND: Give an introduction, just say April 11, 1934.

THORNBURGH: OK, OK.

HELFAND: And then, you know, Dear Mr. Gorman, and the first sentence.

THORNBURGH: "April 11, 1934. Dear Mr. Gorman, I received your communication today, from the research department, and I want to say that I agree with you in every respect.

HELFAND: Great, terrific.

M1: Thank you.

[break in video]

M1: Be looking at her now.

THORNBURGH: During the strike, we had so much criticism, and I felt that some of our criticism was coming from people who really didn't understand what the strike was about or why we were on strike. So I wrote a letter to the editor of the Knoxville News Sentinel, in September of 1934. They put the title on this, "Says Textile Strike was Final Resort." And this is my letter to them. (reads letter) "The main issue of the NRA, as everyone knows, is to increase purchasing power, and everyone also knows that purchasing power lies within the 00:27:00masses. The working people are the masses and if the working people don't make the wages to buy what they produce, there's always a surplus, and that cannot be disposed of. The motive of the nationwide textile strike is to increase purchasing power and empowerment. Every person on strike at the Cherokee Spinning Company is a patriotic American citizen, doing his or her bit in the great battle the textile workers have waged, for better wages and working conditions. There's no selfish motive in it. We're striking against the industry as a whole, for the benefit of our fellow workers and the generations to come, who will work in the mills. We're 100 percent backed of President Roosevelt and his program for national recovery. We're not asking for the impossible, just decent living wages and conditions that are rightfully ours as 00:28:00citizens. We have tried time and time again, to get these simple rights as American citizens who believe in American institutions and the flag. We have petitioned and our petitions and supplications have been scorned by the capitalists. It is impossible to teach patriotism to a hungry man, and it is impossible to preach religion to a cold and hungry man, and as the final resort, we are using the only weapon working people have, the strike, withholding our labor. The southern cotton mills have become a sore spot to the nation. In this highly civilized country, do we have to have a group of working people known as exploited? Do the factories where the clothing for the nation is made have to be sweatshops? I say no. These things do not have to be, but they have 00:29:00never before been opposed, and have run on into the corrupt situation that we have now. We're not out on strike just because the other fellow is. We're out to eliminate sweatshops, starvation wages, and stretch-out systems, that have no place in this country, and we are willing to make all sacrifices in order to win a just cause. We want to see our country come out of the Depression, but we know there must be a more equitable sharing of profits before we have complete recovery. The textile workers realize this and if strike they must, strike they will. And I signed this Lucille Thornburgh, Recording Secretary of Local 1758, 1009 McGhee Street." Did we get it all in there?

[break in video]

HELFAND: You wrote that letter?

THORNBURGH: Yeah.

HELFAND: You could talk to me, talk to me.

F: Why don't you say that, Lucille?

THORNBURGH: It's what?

F: Say that.

HELFAND: You can, yeah, you don't have -- it doesn't have to be scripted.

THORNBURGH: You can ah, you can edit it out can't you?

HELFAND: Don't worry about that.

THORNBURGH: OK, OK.

HELFAND: Are you glad you wrote that letter?

THORNBURGH: Yeah, I'll say that, I'm glad I wrote this letter. All right, ready? I'm ready when you guys.

HELFAND: We're ready.

THORNBURGH: We are not -- start over, start over. "We're not out on strike just because the other fellow is. We're out to eliminate sweatshops, starvation wages, and stretch-out systems, that have no place in this country, and we are willing to make all sacrifices in order to win a just cause. We want to see our country come to -- out of -- come out of the Depression, but we know there must be more equitable sharing of profits before we have complete recovery. The 00:31:00textile workers realize this and if strike they must, strike they will." I'm glad that I wrote this letter. I just hope that it -- that the people read it and understood it. I tried to make it clear that what we were trying to do was to provide a better life for all textile workers, which had had all of this hard work, stretch-out system, and all those things going on. I hope the letter was read. How's that?

HELFAND: That's good.

[break in video]

THORNBURGH: Can I hold my paper right -- how's my paper? How's my paper?

M1: The paper is good.

THORNBURGH: The paper is good, all right, ready?

M1: Yeah.

THORNBURGH: "To all officers and members of UTW local unions, August 24, 1934. All union officers are advised to be constantly on duty and wait for 00:32:00confidential instructions as to the hours set for the general strike, which will reach them before September the 1st. The success of the strike must depend upon the faith and loyalty of the rank and file of our membership, of the officers and the local unions. The strike will be a battle of the people, for a chance to earn a little better living, and for a chance for more of our people to work. The goal today is far short of the goal we should have in sight, but to win this goal will be a real step forward. We must win on the courage and determination of our membership and of those workers who will meet the supreme test by joining with us when the hour comes, to leave the mills. Shortly detailed and confidential suggestions will be sent to you regarding conduct at the hour when every textile mill in the United States is to be closed by the 00:33:00withdrawal of our labor power. But you should proceed at once, with advanced preparations for the operation of picket lines, for the securing of adequate meeting halls, and for the appointment of all the committees that are necessary in a strike. Let there be the most thorough organization ever on hand. This must be the best disciplined strike in all our history. Discipline is based upon organization. Get organized as a strike machine and do this at once. You have, at the outside, no more than ten days for the perfection of thorough organization for strike purposes. Among committees, which should be appointed at once, are these; number one, your strike committee, number two, a local 00:34:00publicity committee, and this one will be very important, a speaker's committee, the relief committee, the committee on cooperation with other organizations, committee on automobiles and other transportation. These committees should be set up at once and they should begin to make plans, so that when we go over the top, every committee will go into action like a trained unit. When we go into the strike, we go into an industrial battle, not with weapons of war, but with the folded arms of peaceful warriors, in the cause of industrial justice. Discipline and loyalty are as necessary as on the battlefield of war. There must be no break in the line. Victory in this great strike will be the foundation upon which, at last, a structure of justice may be built in the great 00:35:00and basic textile industry manufacturing. Chairman Gorman said today that the union's greatest problem today is to hold unions in restraint, so that the strike may come as one movement at a given hour. This is signed by the special strike committee, Frances J. Gorman, chairman."

HELFAND: Could you read the last one, just say special --

[break in video]

M1: OK.

THORNBURGH: "Special strike committee, Frances J. Gorman, chairman. " I was looking at that though, let's do it again.

M1: Yeah, let's do it again.

THORNBURGH: Let's do it again and look at her, I forget that every time.

M1: Well maybe she should read it to Judith. OK.

THORNBURGHL: "Chairman Gorman said today, that the union's greatest problem today is to hold unions in restraint, so that the strike may come as one 00:36:00movement at a given hour. Special strike committee, Frances J. Gorman, chairman."

HELFAND: Great.

THORNBURGH: You didn't say a word.

[break in video]

M1: OK.

THORNBURGH: Ready? "To all officers and members of UTW local unions, August 30, 1934. Greetings. The Cotton Textile Institute has given its final refusal to meet with Chairman Garrison of the National Labor Relations Board. We never expected a meeting and we never expected that any results would come from such a meeting if it were held, but we agreed to meet because our position always has been that we would be willing to meet responsible employers at any time, to 00:37:00discuss the issues. The die is cast, hold to your instructions to the letter. Be on guard for telegraphic instructions. Now here is an important announcement. A beautiful silk banner will be given as an award, to the first local union that reports a hundred percent walkout. Report by wire, signing the telegram by two officers. To the next hundred local unions reporting to a hundred percent walkout, smaller silk banners will be given. These are labors awards for honoring, for meritorious conduct on the field of industrial conflict. These banners will be prized in union history forever. The great struggle impends by our united strength and by the justice of our cause, we shall win. Stand at attention, be ready, fraternally yours for victory, special 00:38:00strike committee, Frances J. Gorman, chairman."

HELFAND: Did you know about any of these banners?

THORNBURGH: It seems to me that, that we got one. I think we did, because we had a hundred percent signed up before the strike. It seems to me that we did get one. I don't know, some of those things I've forgotten. Now what?

[break in video]

M1: Tape's rolling, wait for speed. OK. Look at Judy.

THORNBURGH: "To all the officers and members of local unions, instructions number four, from the United Textile Workers of America. September 5, 1934. Greetings and congratulations. The textile strike is a magnificent success. Our members have walked out of the mills like a great army. The battle for the 00:39:00freedom of the textile workers is on. Stand your ground.

M1: I'm sorry, can we start that over again? That's a great letter. It can be great again.

HELFAND: It's still great.

THORNBURGH: Tell me when you're --

F: For 60 years.

HELFAND: It's great for 60 years.

THORNBURGH: Tell me when you're ready.

HELFAND: Do you remember getting these?

THORNBURGH: Yeah, we got them.

M1: Whenever you're ready.

HELFAND: Can you just move in closer?

M1: Tape rolling.

THORNBURGH: You ready? This is a memorandum sent to all the local UTW members and friends. Erase that start off, I was thinking about something else.

M1: Look at Judy.

THORNBURGH: OK. This is a memorandum sent to all the officers and members of 00:40:00the UTW local unions. Greetings and congratulations. The textile strike is a magnificent success.

M1: Can you hold on, I'm sorry. Isn't there a date on there?

[break in video]

THORNBURGH: I'm going to call it its right name this time. This is instructions number four, that was sent to all officers and members of local unions of the UTWA. "September 5, 1934. Greetings and congratulations. The textile strike is a magnificent success. Our members have walked out of the mills like a great army. The battle for the freedom of the textile workers is on. Stand your ground, maintain strict discipline. The president has named a board of mediation, the strike goes on. Mediation doesn't always mean the end of anything. The mediators will simply begin to find the facts, to see what can be done. Remember, the strike goes on. We believe the president understands our 00:41:00problem. We believe his move is intended to help, but unless we stand our ground, it will not help. The strike goes on full force. No work until the textile industry meets our demands. Move into mills that are still operating. Anyone now working is a worse enemy than the bosses. Those who work after today must be known as scabs. Get the mills closed. Attached, you will find a copy of the agreement which we shall ask the industry and all of its divisions to sign. Study it. You will find our aims set forth, our interests protected, and now, in this most critical period, look out for lies, beware of traps and tricks. Don't be misled, except only official announcement that comes from 00:42:00headquarters. The strike is on, the strike goes on, victory is our. Fraternally yours for victory, Frances J. Gorman, chairman, special strike committee." This was read at the following meeting of our Local 1758 here in Knoxville. Now is that all of them? [break in video] This is a memorandum to all -- (phone rings)

HELFAND: (inaudible).

[break in video]

THORNBURGH: United Textile Workers of America. To all officers and members of UTW local unions. Greetings. Adequate quantities of circulars will be shipped to you within the next two days. One circular will have a picture on one side and printing on the other side; it is for immediate distribution, broadcast. The other circular will be six-by-nine inches in size, known as a fly, and will 00:43:00be for distribution on the morning of the strike."

M1: OK.

[break in video]

THORNBURGH: "United Textile Workers of America, Washington, D.C. To all officers and members of UTW local unions. August 30, 1934. A beautiful silk banner will be given as an award, to the first local union that reports a hundred percent walkout. Report by wire, signing the telegram or by two officers. To the next hundred local unions reporting to a hundred percent walkout, smaller silk banners will be given. These are labors awards for honoring, for meritorious conduct on the field of industrial conflict. These banners will be prized in union history forever. The great struggle impends. By our united strength and by the justice of our cause, we shall win. Stand at 00:44:00attention, be ready, fraternally yours for victory, special strike committee, Frances J. Gorman, chairman."

[break in video]

HELFAND: OK, all right.

M1: There's the dog.

HELFAND: Shall we lose the dog? Lose the dog, OK, all right, let's just talk, let's just talk.

THORNBURGH: Well, he's not ready.

M1: You have to watch your hands.

HELFAND: No, no, no, he's ready, he's ready.

M1: I'm ready.

THORNBURGH: Are you ready?

M1: I'm rolling.

THORNBURGH: OK. This is a scrapbook that I kept, of some of the things that happened during the strike. The first thing here is a leaflet that was sent to us from the international union. We didn't have any leaflets, we didn't have any money to have any printed, and we hadn't even thought about leaflets. We hadn't been organized long enough to know anything about the unions or how they did organizing, so we didn't have any of these. But this is a very nice one, I think that we had. It was colorful at least, it still is just in black and 00:45:00white, but we liked it and we distributed it all around through the neighborhoods and all. It says, the strike is on, the United Textile Workers of America, affiliated with the American Federation of Labor. Don't scab, it's now or never. And it is signed by all of the officers of the national textile workers union. We, we liked that, that's why I kept it, I thought that was the first leaflet that we had ever had, that we could distribute. This is a picture taken during the strike there. I think you can tell, by looking at the car, how old.

M1: Can we cut.

[break in video]

HELFAND: And you can say it, OK.

M1: OK.

THORNBURGH: Start?

HELFAND: You can say we never used leaflets, until actually the time of the strike, when they sent this, because they sent it to my house.

THORNBURGH: This is a scrapbook that I kept, of some of the things that happened during our strike there. This is a leaflet that they sent us from the international union, that we distributed. These were sent to my home because I was the recording secretary, and we distributed these all through the neighborhoods where our people worked and where we lived, and all around through there. We hadn't put out leaflets before, because we didn't, we didn't have money enough to get out a leaflet. And then another thing, we had been organized such a short time, that we didn't realize that distributing leaflets was a good plan to use in organizing. This one, that came from the international union, says, "The strike is on. The United Textile Workers of America, affiliated with the American Federation of Labor. Don't scab, it's now or never." And it was signed by all the officers of the international union. 00:47:00This is a picture of the Cherokee Spinning Company's front door, where we entered. Some of the strikers are standing around in front of there now, and you can see this car over here, you can tell by looking at the car, how old the picture is, because the car is well out of style by this time.

HELFAND: Were you documenting the strike as it went along, with your own photographs?

THORNBURGH: Not really documenting it. Whoever had a camera would come by and take a picture. OK, now, OK. One of our members, J.H. Phillips, who lived down in Harriman, out of Knoxville of course, was on strike down there. They had a hosiery mill down there, and he wrote this poem that later was put to music, that I always liked, I think it's good. I won't read all of it, but I wanted to read you a couple of verses of it. (reads poem) "Roosevelt said stand up boys 00:48:00and dry up your tears, you've been in distress now, for four long years. Remember who caused it, you know it's not right, four years of depression is almost for life." This was set to music later and I like the last verse because it tells just what he must have been thinking. "Well, I hate a chiseler, a chiseler hates me. If I had the power, here's where they would be. They'd all be in prison and I'd be the judge, in 99 years, boys, I'd still hold a grudge." I like that. After it was set to music, we sang it all along.

HELFAND: You sang it on the picket lines?

THORNBURGH: We sang it on the picket line.

HELFAND: How did it go, well can you sing it a little bit?

THORNBURGH: No, no, I don't know the tune to it.

HELFAND: On Top of Old Smokey, right?

THORNBURGH: This is -- this is -- no, 99 years was the tune that it was taken 00:49:00from. This is a leaflet too, that came from our international union, and it, it's on both sides, but to put it in the scrapbook I couldn't get both sides, so I took the one that had the information on it. I thought this was real good, this was the official notice that we received from the national union, and I won't read it all, but I want you to look at it. (reads) "The hour for final action is at hand. We have exhausted every method of getting relief from intolerable conditions." Now, we also distributed this in the communities too, because we wanted the people to know what it was we were trying to do. And it goes on to say here, "We have tried to negotiate but employers will not negotiate. Finally, our great national convention voted a strike order. The hour is at hand, be ready, organize for action, organize for victory. Down the 00:50:00line, send the battle call. It's now or never." And now or never was a slogan that we used all through that strike. "We're united in purpose, we're united in the strength of a great cause. When the call is issued, act in unity and on the minute, yours for solidarity and victory." This came from the strike committee of the international union. I thought it had good information on there and was well worth distributing. This is the first picture that the newspapers would come out and talk to us, but this is the first picture that they actually published, and this was on the front page of the Knoxville News Sentinel, September 5, 1934.

HELFAND: Now did you call the press? You were the publicity committee, right?

THORNBURGH: Yes.

HELFAND: So were you trying to get the press there?

THORNBURGH: We tried to get the press there and they would come out and talk to us, but they didn't take any pictures. This is the first picture that they had 00:51:00taken. I don't know whether they were being kind to us, not to show our picture, or whether they just didn't want it or what. I don't know why, but they didn't. This was the first picture that was taken, this was on September the 5th. The headline here is, "Cherokee Mills Closed By Strike, No Violence Reported By Officers." And it tells down here, who the leaders are, and of course I was one of them that was mentioned here. The other was Foots Weaver, and they called us two of the leaders at the Cherokee strike, and it goes on to tell about us. But that was the first picture. In fact, that was about the first publicity that we had there. This one tells about when we did go out. "Unions vote to walk out here today." We had held a meeting.

M1: I'm sorry, can you just say that again, unions.

THORNBURGH: What did I say?

HELFAND: You said this one tells about unions vote to walk out here today.

THORNBURGH: Do you want me to say that again?

M1: Yeah.

THORNBURGH: "Unions vote to walk out here today." That was Tuesday, September the 4th, and it has little headlines there. The plants say we will be open as usual. Plans for picket lines are laid by leaders. Small groups of workers vote to uphold action of the national union. That was when we really went out on strike, that was on Tuesday, September 4, a date to remember. Then we had a lot of turmoil in our local union there, and at one time, now they had a reporter there for this all right. Cherokee mill workers vote not to strike. OK, we voted not to strike, but actually, before we left the hall, we voted to strike. We just had, that was internal problems we had there. This is something that happened, that we was really did hurt our union at the time. Hal Mebane, 00:53:00who was the president of Cherokee Spinning Company, and also, I suppose he was the owner. It lists him as Hal Herbert Mebane, Knoxville capitalist and president of Cherokee Spinning Company, was found dead at his scenic drive home yesterday, and our members were very concerned about that. Living in this Bible Belt area, and with the fundamentalist preachers, some of our members began to think, well maybe we caused this. We didn't cause it at all, we had nothing to do with it. He possibly had a heart condition before. But that was one that we did have to live down.

HELFAND: How did you do that?

THORNBURGH: We just told them, kept insisting that we didn't have anything to do with his death, which we didn't of course. Then the strikers here, they were talking with us and they said that we have -- this was following the strike. 00:54:00"The strikers say they now have 203 now locked out, and I was certainly one of them. They called it that we were locked out. What we were, we were actually blacklisted, the word they didn't use in the papers. But at the same time, we planned, and this is our clipping on it, the Cherokee Mill strikers will ask the newly formed industrial emergency committee, to consider their case, which they did. Ms. Thornburgh said that she would write to Secretary of Labor Perkins tomorrow, asking that the committee take immediate action to restore strikers to their jobs", which I did. We sent letters to President Roosevelt, we sent them to our senators and congressmen, everybody, trying to get help, to get those jobs restored. Even after we had been blacklisted, others still needed to 00:55:00go back to work and we wanted to help them. Then we got the injunction, we couldn't picket any more, we couldn't do anything. "The judge enjoins Cherokee Mill strikers, Gorman seeks troop protection. Mitchell grants writ to firm against picketers, charges violence." There was no violence. "An injunction has been granted by Chancellor Mitchell, on petition of Cherokee Spinning Company, to stop alleged, alleged now, unlawful, acts, by members of the United Textile Workers." There was no violence, but they got the injunction just the same. So that stopped us from going around the mill, being there, or even having any association with those people. The injunction was bad. Then we were completely blacklisted on November 1, 1934, and the Cherokee 00:56:00said that they would hire, would rehire, men when needed. Of course they meant employees, the women as well, but it didn't mention there. And strikers may take protest to President Roosevelt, which we did. We thought we just as well go to the top man and let's see what can be done about this, so we did, we took it, we wrote letters, and we did everything that we possibly could, to get the president's attention on it. We sent out job affidavits. "Following the orders of Frances J. Gorman, head of the national textile strike, Cherokee Mill strikers again tried to go back to work today, but they had the gate closed in our faces, they said. Mr. Gorman, who was the, the national union strike chairman, wired them Saturday, telling them to go back again. Ms. Lucille 00:57:00Thornburgh, a strike leader said, "Now we know it's a lockout. First they told us to apply for our old jobs, and that they would give them to us, but a week has passed and they haven't taken anybody back yet." And they hadn't taken them back at that time."