KELLY LIMES-TAYLOR HENDERSON: Okay. So we can get started. So the first question
I like to ask is just, "Tell me who I'm talking to."PERRY W. LIMES: Well, this is, uh, Perry Limes. I'm the fifth, the sixth child,
out of ten, and I'm the fourth boy, out of five, so I fit me right in the middle of Mom's ten kids and, uh, my nine siblings and I. Um I'm sixty-nine years old at this point and, uh and, uh, had a very beautiful life. I have a wife. Uh, I have four kids and ten grandkids -- and now twelve grandkids --HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: -- so, um -- I'm retired from the New York Police Department. I have
worked, um, most of my life in a service industry, whether it be the police department, the military --HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- or, uh, subsequent to milita -- to the police department, it was
00:01:00Moffitt Cancer Center.HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: And so I've spent most of my life in the service industry one way or another.
HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: And that's a capsule of who I am.
HENDERSON: (Unintelligible) -- And so this is -- I know that you know, when you
looked at the paperwork or when we talked about it, I said, "That this is an academic life history for Nana --LIMES: Yes.
HENDERSON: -- for Samenia Limes." But then I'm also just as interested in each
of the participants -- you all. Um so I'll ask a question about you, actually, and not -- I mean I want to start with that. What would you say is the most important lesson that you've ever learned?LIMES: Ah (sigh) in life, um giving, to me, love is, is the most cherished trait
that a person can have.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Just the ability to love and the ability to accept love --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and so that was something I learned from my family. Uh, we come from a
00:02:00large family, uh, both the immediate family, Mom's family, and her then ten, uh, nine siblings.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: So she came from ten and had ten and so we always grew up amongst a lot
of family --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- uh, whether it was in New York or Georgetown, South Carolina, or other
places, we had a lot of family.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And to me, family and love was synonymous. They, those things walk hand-in-hand.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And if you didn't learn -- One thing to, to get along because you
occupied space with a lot of people --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- so you had to learn to get along. You had to learn to share and you
had to learn to love. And I, I think love encompasses all those other things so the sharing, the, the compassion, the getting along, uh, the giving, that's all part of that love that, that (unintelligible) people, as young people --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and it just carried into my adult life, so --
00:03:00HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: I, I think to just put it in one word, it's love.
HENDERSON: Mm hm. And you, when you mentioned, in particular, um, Nana's family,
her being one of ten, um can you talk about, a little bit, the interaction that you had, some interactions that you had with her family that you remember.LIMES: Okay. Uh, even as a young child, uh, Mom and Dad, Dad was a presser. He
worked in, in the, uh, laundry Pant, and he'd press clothes. And during the summer months, it was quite lean for him jobwise and moneywise.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And so Mom would send us pack up the little kids, and it's usually from
Ronald, I remember from Ronald, myself, Terrell and T.J., and we were sent South to South Carolina, and we spent the summers with Momma, our grandmother, and Papa.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: But in that household was also Aunt Thedra, Aunt Irma. Uh, nearby was
00:04:00Aunt Theopia, uh, Uncle Sammy was there, uh -- We had most of our family, or her family, still in South Carolina.HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: So I got to see just about ninety percent of my cousins every summer.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Uh, the only ones were Chris's, Uncle Chris's family was in Virginia, so
we didn't get to see them.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And I had uh, mom's sister, Genevieve was in New York and Uncle Irvin,
but he passed, he got hit by a cab, but his family was still in New York --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and so we got to see then regularly --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- but we got to see the southern half of our, or southern two-thirds of
our family every summer. And so, we -- It was a, uh, always a blessing to see our cousins. We were similar in age, our, our age groups were pretty much -- 00:05:00when you think that Mom's family, uh, Mom's immediate family, who had a twenty-two year gap from Sonia to Ronald, uh, Rock -- well, somewhere in between, others had kids, so we always had someone of a comparable age --HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: -- to be -- and so we always had fun. I called it "fun," uh, and we
played in fields, we ate watermelons, we did all of the things that city kids didn't do.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: I didn't do that in New York. I didn't take off my shoes and run in the
sand and run in the grass, so it was, the summers were fantastic for us.HENDERSON: Okay. And so how many summers do you remember having that? Like what
was the span if you (unintelligible) --LIMES: Uh, probably six to eight years, um --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- from -- I was -- And, and I don't remember every summer, but I know
from pictures that I went as a toddler -- 00:06:00HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- up through, probably, eleven or twelve -- somewhere in that vicinity,
so -- And we didn't go every single summer, but it was more summers that not.HENDERSON: Than not. How would y'all get down there? I never thought to ask
anybody else.LIMES: We went on the train. Mom packed one of those big Pullman trunks --
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- and Dad and Mom would take us down to the train --
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- and put us on the train.
HENDERSON: Oh, they wouldn't get on the train with you?
LIMES: No. Sometimes we, we would, we would be sent, uh, uh --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: A lot of times one would go down and come back up --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- but, um.. And we, the, the I guess the most fun part is, Mom would,
you know, Dad would do fried chicken --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and we would take brown bags and by the time we got to South Carolina,
the bags were a little greasy, but that chicken was fantastic.HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: So we rode the trains a lot.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Uh, as we got older, we were allowed to ride Trailways, uh, or Greyhound --
HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right.
00:07:00LIMES: -- the buses. But, uh, we didn't have a car in the family, so -- I
remember two summers that mom sent us down with someone who was going down, to the South.HENDERSON: Oh. Like dri -- a person was driving you guys there?
LIMES: Right. Right.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: Two summers we did that --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and we hated that ride, because we, we weren't allowed to get up, we
weren't allowed to do anything and we stop when they stopped and --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- little kids have little bladders and --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- they would make you hold it --
(child interrupting)
LIMES: -- uh, they would make you hold it until they wanted to go to a rest stop
and --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Uh, one particular summer, it was Terrell, T.J. and I going together --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: It was a miserable -- We were packed in like sardines. Uh, I think there
were seven people in that car --HENDERSON: Ummm --
LIMES: -- and, yeah, the, you know, the ride was fast because we had young men
-- and I don't know how old the, the, the relatives or friends were that were driving. They were adults to us -- 00:08:00HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- but they had young men who wanted to drive fast at that time --
HENDERSON: Right. Right, right, right.
LIMES: -- so we (laugh) we were stuck like we were sardines in the back of that car.
HENDERSON: And so were these peop -- like that you took the ride with, like for
that example, were these people that y'all knew as children or just that Nana had -- knew?LIMES: Nana knew, um, Nana and, and, and Dad. They belonged to the
Georgetonians, which was a club of former Georgetown --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- uh, uh, residents. And so as they came North, they formed a social
club to keep together, keep in touch.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And these were people who belonged to the club and they lived in the
Georgetown area, um --HENDERSON: Oh.
LIMES: -- at, or they were visiting the Georgetown area --
HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: -- so Mom and Dad knew who was going down --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and they would arrange a ride.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: We didn't like those; we liked the train.
HENDERSON: (laugh) Um -- And so what's one memory, in particular, that you have
00:09:00of summers in Georgetown?LIMES: In particular, uh (sigh) we had a room in Momma's house where -- I don't
know whether it was always, but we seemed to have a lot of -- we called it the "watermelon room."HENDERSON: (laugh)
LIMES: And there were probably fifty to sixty watermelons on the floor in this
one particular room and --HENDERSON: What? (laugh)
LIMES: -- that's all that was in the room.
HENDERSON: (laughter) Wha -- why?
LIMES: I -- we have no idea. They gave us that as our, our snack --
HENDERSON: Oh!LIMES: -- and, so, um, uh, Thedra, Aunt Thedra would, would buy
all these watermelons, or be given -- I don't know. They just were there when we got --HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: -- to, to, uh, South Carolina. And one particular time, my cousin uh us
-- used a, a knife and they would, to test the watermelons, you would cut a little triangle and pull a plug out.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Well, he unplugged every watermelon in that room, and that starts a
00:10:00watermelon to rot, after that.HENDERSON: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
LIMES: So we wound up eating more watermelon quicker than we would --
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: We were sick from eating the watermelon. We had to cut all those
watermelons that he --HENDERSON: That he cut --
LIMES: Because we were all blamed. There were probably eleven or twelve kids at
the time --HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: -- in that household, and we would bunk everywhere, but --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- that particular summer, he plugged -- as they called it -- plugged
every watermelon and we had to eat them and you talk about getting sick on watermelon --HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: And, and the summer was fun, but --
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: -- the, the, the, the feeling of eating too much watermelon was horrific.
So, that, that's one on my greatest, you know --HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: (laugh) But that watermelon summer was bad --
HENDERSON: Do you -- Um, what? The watermelon summer (unintelligible) (laughter) --
LIMES: Yes. It was just horrible --
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: -- and we've heard of people, you know, if you catch a child smoking, you
00:11:00make them smoke --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- well, that's what they made us do. They made us --
HENDERSON: That --
LIMES: -- eat watermelon --
HENDERSON: Oh, like as a punishment.
LIMES: Yes.
HENDERSON: Oh not, not -- I felt like, because it was going to get bad, and so
they wanted you guys to eat them then.LIMES: Well, that was important --
HENDERSON: Um, but then this was also punishment as well.
LIMES: Yes. You unplugged those, uh -- You, you cut into those watermelons.
You're going to eat those watermelons --HENDERSON: Ohhh -- .
LIMES: -- and none of the watermelons went bad.
HENDERSON: (laughter) Do you remember what cousin it was?
LIMES: Um it was Kenny. He was one of the younger of the Fleming --
HENDERSON: Yeah, Kenny.
LIMES: Yeah.
HENDERSON: Uh huh, I know -- (laughter) Kenny --
LIMES: So it was Kenny that --
HENDERSON: (Unintelligible) --
LIMES: -- that cut the watermelons.
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: And it was it wasn't a good summer for, for food.
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: But --
HENDERSON: It --
LIMES: Those things in summer summer was always good because ma -- Momma had a
porch and Thedra and, and Irma whoever else was there helping would cook and 00:12:00they did deep fried chicken on the porch and --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- the smell always -- People would walk by --
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: -- and sniff and --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and so it was, it was a good, it was a good place to be --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- because we were children of concrete. We were people from New York
City --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and didn't have that in our lives and being down there, that, that
(unintelligible) --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- chasing chicken and doing all the things that farm kids -- And it
wasn't a big farm; it was just --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: But it was grass and it was spacious --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- and we didn't have that in New York.
HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right. So where was -- because wh -- when I visited
Wood Street, there were houses --LIMES: Yep.
HENDERSON: -- everywhere. So we -- were there were there houses built in between
when you were there at summer --LIMES: Yes.
HENDERSON: -- and then when I visited in '98?
00:13:00LIMES: When we were there when we were there, Dr. Till (phonetic) was next door --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- but you had a space in between the houses --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and there was no house in back --
HENDERSON: Oh, I see.
LIMES: -- and I think some of that land was partitioned off and, and then built upon.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: But we had the run of probably what would be a standard three lots maybe --
HENDERSON: Oh. Okay.
LIMES: -- where nothing in back of Momma --
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- and so it was all open. Now, I don't know whether that was their
property or they just used that property --HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: -- but there was no fences or anything.
HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right.
LIMES: So we were, we were able to use all the property.
HENDERSON: Did you all go to the beach or some kind of water?
LIMES: We went to
the beach, but it was very seldom, because at that time, the beaches were segregated --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and although Irma worked on the beach -- she worked on one of the,
Myrtle Beach, um we weren't allowed to go into Myrtle Beach and we had to go to a Black or colored-only portion of, of the beach --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
00:14:00LIMES: -- and so we didn't go as often.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Now we did go down to the docks, uh where they caught the fish.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And that wasn't -- Because we were young, and it was hard for them -- and
I say "them" -- the adults to transport so many young people.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: Uh, they had to really, uh, coordinate, make a coordinated effort to get
ten, eleven, twelve kids --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- to a locale.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And there weren't a lot of cars in the family, so we had to depend on
rides and other things from other people, so --HENDERSON: Mm hm. You mentioned the segregation at the beach.
LIMES: Mm hm.
HENDERSON: Um are there other ways that you noticed, or just remember now
segregation in South Carolina?LIMES: At the time we were kids, we did not um receive any of the the, the
blowback from segregation.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Um, maybe the adults did, but Dr. Till was White and so --
00:15:00HENDERSON: The neighbor?
LIMES: Yes. So, you had -- We didn't know that there was a -- If we went to, um,
one of the stores, we didn't perceive the segregation.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And we didn't know it in New York, so we didn't look for it anywhere else --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- and I guess if I had been brought up, um under that badge of
segregation, I, I might have looked at it differently --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- but all, all I knew was I was a kid, and I was having fun --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- so I didn't, I didn't get to feel any of that type of stuff.
HENDERSON: Now someone else -- I think it was Aunt Verna had mentioned that on,
that street, on Wood Street, there were White families and there were Black families and that was always, that was interesting to me just because I have a perception --LIMES: Mm hm.
HENDERSON: -- that in these kinds of segregation, people lived in segregation,
too, that --LIMES: No, they, the -- Momma and -- I don't -- I know, uh, Papa was the first
00:16:00Black mailman in, in Georgetown.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Uh, I don't know whether that house was a, a first among firsts --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- but, yes, there were White neighbors and there were Black neighbors --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and, and people would walk down the street and wave or hail each other.
HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: Uh, there was a huge porch that we used to sit on with two big, big
swings --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and, uh, as, if you're sitting out there, people would, um, salute you.
HENDERSON: Regardless of the race?
LIMES: Yes. Yes.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: And so we, as kids, never saw that overt type of racism or segregation or --
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: Uh, we just saw it as our neighbors.
HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: And if we were running up and down the street, nobody'd say, "Get out of
my yard," or anything like that.HENDERSON: Mm hm. That's interesting.
LIMES: Yeah. And I don't know whether that was only Wood Street --
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- because I know Dad had talked about, when he talked about "the
00:17:00country," he talked about outside of Georgetown --HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- and there was a lot of overt --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- uh, racism and segregation --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- but we didn't feel it on Wood Street.
HENDERSON: What what were some things that he talked about?
LIMES: Oh, there was, there was a, a heavy presence of, of, uh post-slavery, um
(throat-clearing) -- I call it "shantytown" type of conditions where, um, Blacks were living in very small dilapidated houses, uh -- Where Dad was from was Conway and that was, uh an industrial town, but a lot of the people who lived there were very poor --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- um, especially post-slavery and, uh -- Now Dad's mom, Mamus, was a
child of slavery --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and so Dad was more (unintelligible) than Momma. Um, Momma Mom's
00:18:00family was more educated, more, uh academic and dad's family was more industrial.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And so those that I know from his side always came from that element of
working in servitude, almost.HENDERSON: Ummm --
LIMES: Um, his sister, Sadie, was a maid all her life --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and so that was what you were brought up to do.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Now she was -- I don't know how old, but she was much older than Dad and
Baby and so when she left to come to New York, uh Dad and Mom were still in Georgetown --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- but her job, what she wanted to do or did was become a, a maid
(unintelligible) --HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and, um, none of them none of them went very far educationally --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
00:19:00LIMES: -- and so they were people of hands, they, they worked with their hands.
HENDERSON: I didn't -- You're the first person to say that he, that, um, came
from Conway. I didn't realize (unintelligible) --LIMES: Yeah.
HENDERSON: Um.
LIMES: His family was not in, from, in Georgetown --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and so he came from, um (unintelligible) and, and I think that, um,
came to Georgetown to work --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- because, uh, he stopped school in, in somewhere between third and
sixth grade. I've heard both.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: Um, but I think he came here to work and that's how he met the Wilson family.
HENDERSON: So -- Oh! So stopping school between third and sixth grade, that
wasn't in Georgetown?LIMES: I don't know where he actually went to school.
HENDERSON: Oh, okay. Mm hm.
LIMES: Um, dad never said where he went to school, but I know, um, he didn't go
very far in school --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and so, uh, he said he started working somewhere around eleven or
twelve years old.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
00:20:00LIMES: He was a young boy, if you want to say, a "young man," but he was a young
boy when he started going to work.HENDERSON: All right.
LIMES: So it was hard. And then they came North to, because of his older sister,
um, helped them come North --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- so he could find work up here, so --
HENDERSON: Did he talk any more, uh, uh -- Do you remember anything else that he
used to say about the coun -- because the country qualifies as anything outside of Georgetown? Is that pretty much what the "country" is?LIMES: Pretty much. Wherever -- You know, they would use phrases like of course,
"the tracks." They would use phra -- phrases like "the country." They would use -- And, and that, to me, was anything outside of Georgetown proper.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Uh, he would talk about the, the Peedee River and he would talk about
Santee and he -- These are places that you went to work --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and Santee was, um, I think a small industrial town, so people went
there to work -- 00:21:00HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and, uh (throat-clearing) he grew up swimming in the Peedee -- the,
the Little Peedee and the Big Peedee.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: He would talk about things like that --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- but he never was specific about who he was with, but just some of the
things that they did.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: You know, like he'd learn to swim, they, they, they threw people off the,
the banks and into the river and that's how you learned to swim, so --HENDERSON: Oh, goodness.
LIMES: -- yeah.
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: It was forced swim lessons -- But, it, dad didn't share with with me,
anyway, uh, a lot of his -- Like I don't know who his friends were down there. I don't know what --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- his associations -- I knew in New York, because he had friends --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- and some of the friends came from South Carolina, that, that
Georgetonians Club.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: But when he was living down there, I have no idea who his friends were --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- or, uh, I know he didn't have many relatives, and so his, his family
00:22:00became mom's family --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- more so than anything else.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: You know, and they accepted him as a hardworking, productive man --
HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and so that's how I think you know, he got the blessing of Papa to
marry Ma --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- because he was a hardworking man.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And that's what Papa loved about him. You had to go and produce for your family.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: So, didn't have any slackers.
HENDERSON: Right. Right, right, right, right. Could you talk about Papa a little
bit more?LIMES: Papa was, uh (sigh) an enigma. Um, Papa was (throat-clearing) -- He could
be jovial --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- at one point and he could be very stern. Um, Papa had restrictions for
us as kids. As I said, they had a huge porch; it was a wraparound porch.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: It went around. And part of it was screened in but that was Papa's
00:23:00smoking room, where he smoked his cigars and his card playing.HENDERSON: The screened in portion?
LIMES: Right. We weren't allowed in there, if there were men present.
HENDERSON: I see. Mm hm.
LIMES: During that period, um, when we were young, children had -- We were
actually -- Now, that's segregation --HENDERSON: (laugh)
LIMES: -- because we couldn't be with the adults --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- when the adults were having their cigar, playing cards, having a
drink, anything like that.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Yeah, we weren't allowed to be in adult conversations. So, we were
shunted into other areas of the home.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Um, it's adult time --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and we knew that. When Papa, uh, he would, after, uh, eating you'd see
him get his cigar and you knew where he was going.HENDERSON: (laugh) Mm hm.
LIMES: There was no if, ands or buts, and we knew -- But, now, he would hug us
and kiss us and greet us and everything else, but he had these moments where he was more distant --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- than I would have like to have him. Uh, Momma was one of those, you
00:24:00know, hug my apron and, you know, that type of thing.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: But Papa was initially very open and then, um, as the day went through,
he became closed to us.HENDERSON: Right. At the -- And this was an everyday thing --
LIMES: Yes. Mm hm.
HENDERSON: -- so kind of in the mornings he was really (unintelligible) --
LIMES: And when he came home from work, he was very affitable (sic, affable?).
He, he --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And, and then, then came that shut-off time.
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: It was like a light switch, like Papa is going to you know? And we knew
that, um, if we had questions, problems, anything else, we would go see Momma or --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Irma or Thedra or someone else, and we weren't to disturb Papa, unless it
was something that required his manness or something.(laughter)
LIMES: And I used to you know look at it that way, you know.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
00:25:00LIMES: When it was something heavy, well, Papa was a (unintelligible).
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: He, he was very, um -- He was -- And I don't -- he was definitely the
patriarch of the family.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Everybody looked up to him. Everybody uh listened to him.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: He was wise and so he guided a lot of the family through --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- you know different, uh, things with their lives.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: But I didn't get to see him much after, uh I got into my teen years. So,
then, the things become more you know, where he, you think of your memories of him --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and that's what I remember most is him going into that screened room
and I couldn't go in there (laughter) so --HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: -- you know? So I didn't get to know Papa like maybe Rocky or Sadie did,
00:26:00because they were there -- I was the firstborn in New York.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Um, from Rocky to Ronald were born in Georgetown. Well, they grew up
among -- with Papa.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: I didn't. I had to go visit --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and so I guess they knew more of him as a um -- I don't even want to
say "a younger man," but they knew more of him on a day-to-day basis rather than just that summer --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- that we spent.
HENDERSON: Right. Right, right, right. And you said you didn't get to see him as
much once you were a teenager.LIMES: Yeah.
HENDERSON: Why not?
LIMES: Um, I don't know the year Papa died. I, I can dig it out, but, um, we
didn't go down as often --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- to South Carolina and then, uh, when I was sixteen, I went to live
with Vern.HENDERSON: Yeah. Mm hm.
LIMES: Um, and, so I -- During that period was a, a great period of academic, um
00:27:00-- I did summer school. I did other types of activities --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and so I wasn't available to go down.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: I mean, Veronica and Sonia didn't go down as often as we did. I think
some of the older kids now being out and working and helping, allowed Mom to keep us in the summer --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- in the North, rather than ship us down, and I say "ship us." (laugh)
That's what it used to feel like (unintelligible) --HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: But we were sent down because Momma wanted to help her get through the
lean times for Dad.HENDERSON: I see. I see. Because there wasn't a lot of money coming in --
LIMES: Correct.
HENDERSON: -- and so -- Okay.
LIMES: And so this was Momma's way of contributing. "I'm going to take the kids
for the two-months, three-months," whatever it is, "and you and Jero don't have 00:28:00to worry about feeding all of them.HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: And so once Rocky, Sadie Vern, uh, as they got old and started working,
or left the household, like Ferdie went to the military --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- um, Vern and Sadie got married, a lot of that burden is taken off the
shoulders of Mom and Dad.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: You know? And so we didn't get, we didn't go down like we used to.
HENDERSON: How did you know that that was the reasoning for your going down?
LIMES: We talked -- I talked with Mom about it, about that.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: Uh --
HENDERSON: Then? Or later?
LIMES: Later. Later.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: Um, because we when you miss certain parts of your life -- and that was,
like I said, those summers were very fun, very, uh, I enjoyed that part of my life. And so when you don't have it, you start to question, "Well, why didn't we go?" and --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- Mom said, you know, uh -- I remember the, I'll call it the Food Stamp
00:29:00era --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- where Mom was getting the, the, the powdered milk and the blocks of
cheese and and she said those were very lean times --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and she told me. You know, Dad worked hard, but when you don't have
the business -- In the wintertime, men were cleaning coats and suits and everything else. In the summertime, they weren't, so --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- we, he may have done and he worked piecemeal -- he got paid by the
piece pressed --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: He may have done, let's say a hundred pieces today; in the summer he
may do ten pieces.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And so it was a drastic cut in income --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And it usually picked back up around September.
HENDERSON: I see.
LIMES: And --
HENDERSON: Around school?
LIMES: Yes.
HENDERSON: And you, and y'all would be starting again.
LIMES: And we would come back up to, to start school.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And so it was always the thing of, uh, well, we don't have the money, and
well, we don't --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
00:30:00LIMES: -- and so, um Mom said that, you know, Momma saved them a lot from --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- going through other things.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: You know, we always had the apartment. We always had it, but we didn't
have the car, we didn't have the T.V., even --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- when T.V.s came out, we didn't have, you know -- Uh, we got our first
T.V. when, I think, Sister, dad's older sister, gave us one.HENDERSON: Oh. Mm hm.
LIMES: You know? She had gotten it from one of the people that was upgrading.
HENDERSON: I see.
LIMES: And we got (unintelligible) -- I remember, that was a little screen. It
was, I think it was like seven inches --HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: -- and had this huge magnifying glass on the top, and you'd pull the
magnifying glass over the screen so that --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- so that you could see. It was a, it was a, uh, concave --
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- and you, this is where you can see it from the sides as well.
HENDERSON: Did that hurt your eyes?
LIMES: I don't know.
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: We just enjoyed that channel, whether, that one or two channels we had.
00:31:00(laughter) When you have nothing --HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: -- and you get something --
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: -- you have no idea how pleasurable that is. You know? Because we heard
people talk about T.V.; we didn't have one --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and (laugh) and no hopes of getting one, and so when we got that
thing, it was unbelievable.HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: There would be six or eight of us sitting on the floor or nearby and, at
seven inches, is was only but so big. I mean we have phones that are bigger than that T.V. was.HENDERSON: (laughter) Right. Right. Right.
LIMES: And, so, yeah, it was, it was a really you know, big deal --
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: -- (unintelligible) -- But we and this is where I go back to that word
"love." I didn't have the material things -- Uh, Kelly, I can remember going to school and putting newspaper in my shoes because I had a hole in my shoes --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and mom couldn't afford to buy me new ones.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: So we didn't have that, but we had each other and --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
00:32:00LIMES: -- we always -- today, Vern and, and people comment Sonia's job that,
there's a lady who says, "I don't understand how you nine people get together every year um, for a sibling reunion."HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: "I don't like my brothers and sisters." Well, I love my brothers and
sisters, and we always have, because all we had was each other.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And that's what, to me, that's where the love came from --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and that's why that's the most important word. Uh, we respect each
other. We didn't have space. Think of growing up in a two-bedroom apartment and you have two adults and ten kids.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Albeit, not all at the same time, because Ronnie and Sonia were born
later and --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: But I remember um, Rocky and Verna having to sleep at neighbors' because
we didn't have enough room in the house.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: So every night, they would get up and go to Mister, Miss Wilson, or go
00:33:00someplace else to sleep --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and (throat-clearing) that's how our life was, so we respected each
other. Ron, T.J., Terrell and myself slept in four bunk beds. We had two, two separate bunk beds and --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and we slept next to each other. Uh, you know, Ferdie, I, I think
Ferdie was sleeping in, in, on a pullout in the living room. Somebody else was sleeping someplace else, and mom and dad had their room.HENDERSON: Mm hm,
LIMES: So we all had to make-do with the rest of the house --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and, um, if you was trying to study, I'd, I knew not to disturb you --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- because all you had was that little corner of your room.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And so we learned to respect each others' studies and --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- time and everything else. And so that's, you know -- I I loved being
with my siblings and that's something I grew up with, something that, that, um I 00:34:00tried to give my especially now my grandkids to understand their cousins --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and how important a role family is --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- because that's -- really, when you get down to it, that's all you have
left, you know. When, when all hell breaks loose, it's family who pulls you back (unintelligible).HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And so that's what I try to (unintelligible) family. And I, I want them
to understand that the, the, I, I, used term "hierarchy," but that's not really what it is, but the generational respect.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: You know, they come in this house, they have to respect their
grandmother. They have to respect their parents. They have to respect you, because, because you, cousin, because you're an adult. They have to respect that.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And they have to give you that prop, you know. I mean whether it's your
kids or Nisha's kids or Bebe's kids or Tony's and we just came back from Tony 00:35:00and Danielle's kids. They're young adults now, but they have to show that respect --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and especially the generational respect.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And so that's something that I, I, they're -- I'm a stickler you know? I,
I won't let them walk in my house without saying something to my mother.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: She has to be acknowledged, you know?
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: So because kids are kids. Kids will do what you allow them to do --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- or what you don't train them to do, and we have to train our kids (unintelligible).
HENDERSON: And how were you what are some ways that you, you remember your
parents training you?LIMES: Well, the first thing is every adult was due respect unless that adult
disrespected you, but --HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- you couldn't do anything. You had to tell another adult that this
person said or did something that you didn't like or appreciate.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And so if an adult said something to me, I was not to I was not to go
00:36:00back at that adult, either verbally or physically, I --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- was to tell Rocky who was probably grown at the time, or I was to --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- tell Mom and Dad, I was to tell an adult that this --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- adult crossed boundaries, and --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And so that was the first, but I never could get away with saying, not
saying, "Yes, sir. No, sir. Yes, ma'am. No, ma'am."HENDERSON: And who wouldn't let you get away with it?
LIMES: First, it's Mom and
Dad, but then all my siblings, the older siblings.HENDERSON: Oh. Uh huh.
LIMES: Um, it was an enforcement from above and --
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: -- I say that age-wise.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And just like I correct my kids today, when they say, "Yeah," I says,
"Yes." I was done -- That, that was done to me by Rocky, Sadie Verna, uh, Ferdie -- I don't remember Ron doing it because --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- we, we are very close in age.
HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
00:37:00LIMES: But I remember the older four doing it --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- and I definitely remember Mom and Dad.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: Uh, I couldn't call somebody, I had to say, "Mister Wilson, Miss Wilson,"
uh --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- "Aunt Mavis." I had to say a title --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- in addition to the name.
HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right.
LIMES: It wasn't no, "Hey, Joe," oh, that was, that was cause for, um, a little
time in the bathroom, you know?HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: Either the soap in the mouth or washing the blood out of your teeth --
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: Uh, they'd smack you in the lips. You just didn't get fresh and --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And that's what they called it, "Getting fresh."
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: You just didn't get fresh with an adult. You gave that adult respect.
HENDERSON: Um.
LIMES: And if they walked in your house they were treated like your mom and dad.
Um, when we would go to school, any neighbor who was an adult, who was a friend of Mom and Dad's, had, probably, every right that Mom and Dad had --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
00:38:00LIMES: -- to chastise you, and even to go as far as spanking.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And I was not to, you know, look them with an evil look, uh because it
got back home and I probably would get another spanking if I did something wrong.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: So --
HENDERSON: Now did that, did did that ever happen to you?
LIMES: Yes. Oh, yes.
HENDERSON: An adult, where an adult neighbor spanked you?
LIMES: Yes. I've, I've
been hit by an adult neighbor.HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: I threw -- I threw a rock at a kid and I got whacked on the behind by an
adult neighbor.HENDERSON: In the street?
LIMES: In the street. And they told Rocky and Rocky went home and told Ma --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and I got whacked when I got home, because it was something that I
wasn't supposed to do.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And I think why they hit me was I had the rock and he told me, "Don't
throw it," and I threw it. And that was my -- 00:39:00HENDERSON: And did you know this person?
LIMES: Yes.
HENDERSON: Oh.
LIMES: Yes.
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: (laughter) Yes. Yes. He lived -- Uh in a Hundred Sixteenth Street, there
were tenement buildings. There were four on my side of the street and probably ten on the other side, but he lived two buildings up from us.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And he was a -- And I'm, I'm going to guess age, but he was probably
thirty to thirty-five --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and he told me, "Don't do that. You'll hurt him," and I threw a rock.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Now, I didn't hit the kid.
HENDERSON: (laughter) Was that -- That wasn't the point. (laughter)
LIMES: Yes. The point was I didn't listen to him --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- when he told me not to do it.
HENDERSON: And did he have kids that you know of?
LIMES: No, he didn't have kids. He was, um, probably around in, in -- No, he was
older than Rocky, but he was not old as my Mom and Dad --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- so he was in that middle age.
HENDERSON: And so that contrast is interesting to me now, just because I grew up
with Mom saying the same thing, like --LIMES: Mm hm.
00:40:00HENDERSON: -- you would, someone would spank you in the street and then you'd
get in trouble when you went home, but what would you say was the, um, kind of environment or understanding from the adults that that was okay to do? Like wh -- what was the community mindset, so that could, say, hit each other's kids or, or watch out for each other's kids.LIMES: Well, the, the thing -- and I'll use what they used today-- it takes a
village to raise a child --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- well, we had that community concept. We lived in a tenement. Those who
lived in the front of their tenement had windows that faced the front. Those of us who lived in the back of tenement had windows that faced the courtyard where the kids weren't playing. So the people in the front became the eyes for the people who lived in the back.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Um, the same thing, mom could leave us downstairs on the streets...
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
00:41:00LIMES: -- uh, on the sidewalks, playing, knowing that, um, Mr. Cadera (phonetic)
would watch us --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- or knowing that Aunt Mae would watch us.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And knowing that we weren't going to get in trouble with these other
adult eyes.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Um, it was like a huge family that wasn't family --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- but acted like a family.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And so when I went to your house your mom and dad could say, you know,
um, "Do you want to stay for dinner?" and they would ask my ma. And it was commonplace, that we were interchanging children --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- because there were friends and neighbors that came to our house. We
went to other people's houses.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And it was common. It was just something we grew up with where the whole
block knew each other.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: It's something that people don't do today, but everyone came downstairs
00:42:00and sat on the stoop or talked to each other or hung out by -- We had a bunch of small stores --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- storefronts, and people went into those stores and they, they
communicated with each other, unlike today where everybody drives into a garage.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
PERRY LIMES: There weren't a lot of cars on my block.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Everybody walked to the bus stop, they walked to the train station, they
walked, and they walked past people and they communicated with people. And today's society, especially the, the, the suburban society -- I don't know much about the urbanness, like in New York now, or even in downtownTampa. I would assume it's more cohesive like that where you know your neighbors, where you know many neighbors. Um, there were probably three hundred, four hundred 00:43:00families on my block, and I, I probably knew every single name --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- of every child and every adult, and so that's what you knew. Uh, I was
born on that block.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: I lived on that block, on and off -- other than, uh, uh, trips outside of
it -- I lived on that block for eighteen years and so everybody knew everybody, and it was understood that if, you as an adult were downstairs and Tanisha was upstairs cooking, that you had not just the right, but you had the responsibility to make sure your child and her child were both safe.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: You could not stand there and say, "Oh, that ain't my child. I'd let,
I'll let him or her go run in the street and do whatever." That wasn't -- Then you would be the pariah on the block.HENDERSON: Right. Oh! So it was like the community would --
LIMES: Yes. Expected you --
HENDERSON: -- check? Mm hm.
LIMES: -- expected you as an adult to make sure that those kids that you could
00:44:00see were safe, and they -- and that, in turn, allowed you to say, "If I'm going to spank my child for doing it, I'm going to spank you for doing it the same thing."HENDERSON: Mm hm.LIMES: And your parent, because he or she had the same right the same
responsibility would also allow you to do that --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- because now you're upstairs and I'm downstairs, and I still have this
group and I'm responsible to make, make sure they're safe.HENDERSON: But there was never any discussion of this? Like it was --
LIMES: No. It was just a, a --
HENDERSON: -- just understood?
LIMES: -- a unspoken word of, uh, community respect, you know. These are adults
and they're the protectors and these are the kids and they're ones who must be looked after. Now, uh -- And I would equate it to a pride of lions and you see a 00:45:00cub getting frisky, a female or a male may growl and you'll see the, the cub jump back in line real quick.HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: That didn't have to be the mother, but it was in that pride --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and that's how that block was raised --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: It was a series of families who acted like a pride of lions, and all the
adults watched all the kids.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And it was just an understood thing.
HENDERSON: And there was -- And there wasn't -- Or do you know of any adult
that, say, didn't watch the kids, or didn't take responsibility and would just leave the kids and let other people --LIMES: Yeah, we had, we had some who were, um -- and I, I don't want to use a
profane term, but we had some who were jackasses on the block --HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: -- who were irresponsible to their own families, thus irresponsible to
the rest of the --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- community. And they were looked upon very poorly --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- because then the rest of the adults --
HENDERSON: Okay, so you were saying conversely --
00:46:00LIMES: Conversely, those, those people who were looked upon poorly, but their
kids were protected, still --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- because you didn't throw out the, the baby with the bathwater.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: You didn't like that individual, that adult, but his or her kid was still
a kid --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- and you had to protect them.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: Now, you may not spank that kid, but you didn't allow that kid to do
things that would harm himself or anyone else.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And so that was also another unwritten -- "You'll never come to my house,
but I'll make sure your kid is always safe."HENDERSON: Mm hm. So "You'll never come to my house," because why?
LIMES: You are the drunkard, you are the ones with the loose morals. You are the --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- whatever your fault is --
HENDERSON: Right.LIMES: -- you are not living up to the standards of the other
adults in this community.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
00:47:00LIMES: "Now, because you're a drunk uh, I'm not going to blame your kid --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- so I'll look after your kid."
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: "Now, I'll even invite your kid in for Kool-Aid and cookies --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- but you can't come to my house."
HENDERSON: (laugh)
LIMES: And so it was that unwritten rule, also, of saying --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- you know, "We have standards."
HENDERSON: Now what would you say --
because this is my assumption -- would you say that the adults had standards -- I imagine them being a lot of people from the South moving up, or was this a mix of Southern transplants and New Yorkers?LIMES: My block, my particular block was probably one third Southern Blacks,
probably one third Hispanic, Puerto Ricans, mostly, and probably a mix then of 00:48:00Caribbean Blacks and Whites. We had Italians live on that block --HENDERSON: Hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: -- at one point. And so you had a mixture. No particular segment
dominated the block.HENDERSON: Um.
LIMES: It was a pretty integrated block of, of, uh, people from -- And I'm
talking about many Caribbean Islands, so St. Thomas, Trinidad, Jamaica -- from all over. Um, the, the Hispanics were mostly from Puerto Rico. I don't know many. There was one family who was, um, Ecuadorian.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: But they were quiet and they didn't stay a long time. Um, but the
majority of them were from Puerto Rico, from the South, specifically, um South Carolina and Georgia. And then from the Caribbean Islands.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
00:49:00LIMES: So -- Yeah, it was a, it was, uh, very homogeneous, uh, grouping of --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And, and it's, it just, it's funny that they had a like mindset.
HENDERSON: Right. Yeah.
LIMES: Now the one commonality was, there were some large families, and I don't
know whether it was the time or just the mentality, but we had, uh, my family was one of ten. There was a family of twelve. There was a family of nine. There was a fam -- And so we had some big groupings --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- of families.
HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right.
LIMES: And so that, that, I think, led to one, the ages and us being friends,
because we always had people who were in our grade, in our age --HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: -- or, you know --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Um, a lot of the Caribbean kids went to the Catholic school. Uh, a lot of
us went to the public school. But we all hung out together, we all went to the 00:50:00same, uh, uh, boy's club. We all went to, did the same things. So, and we played stickball together and rode bikes together and -- So we all did everything together, and there was your family and my family. It wasn't your family or my family.HENDERSON: Right. Right, right. And when you say "a block," you're mentioning
the building, so --LIMES: Yes.
HENDERSON: -- with the block, how many buildings would that be?
LIMES: There were four on my side and probably ten on the other side, so that
would be fourteen buildings.HENDERSON: Ah, on the block --
LIMES: Yeah.
HENDERSON: -- and so that's where you had kind of this mix of, of --
LIMES: Right.
HENDERSON: -- all different types of people on that one block.
LIMES: And it went from Fifth Avenue to Madison Avenue.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: Now, beyond Fifth Avenue, going west, we had more uh, of a Black
population. Going east, you had more of a Hispanic population.HENDERSON: That's interesting. And so you guys were right in the middle.
LIMES: In the middle.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Yeah, and it was almost a dividing line of Fifth Avenue --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
00:51:00LIMES: -- whether it was, uh meant to be that way or it just blended in as it
was coming across --HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right.
LIMES: -- because, uh, further east there were nothing but Italians. Then it
blended into Hispanics.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And then it blended into Blacks.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And so we were that little melting pot in the middle where everything
blended together.HENDERSON: That -- that is interesting --
LIMES: So Harlem was -- Uh, we grew up in Harlem and Harlem was, uh, you had
Harlem, which was predominantly Black, and then you had Spanish Harlem, which is actually where we lived.HENDERSON: Ohhh --
LIMES: They called it "Spanish Harlem" because you had then a larger population
of Hispanics --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- in that section --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- so, we had, Harlem and Spanish Harlem.
HENDERSON: Okay. And y'all were on kind of this side of the Spanish
Harlem?LIMES: Correct. We were on the border, but in the Spanish Harlem section --HENDERSON: Mm hm. Setting. Uh huh.
LIMES: Yeah. We even had, uh they called it the Marqueta which is a Spanish
word, which is the major market under the, the, uh the, uh, train, and it, the 00:52:00train was on a trestle, and underneath it built all these beautiful stalls and they had, for four blocks, city, four city blocks, they had nothing but fresh market. And so we would then call it the Marqueta uh, that coming from the Spanish, because a number of Spanish who were there, but the population was still probably forty percent Black.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And, but everybody went to Marqueta because that's where you got your
fresh produce, your fresh fish, you got everything fresh there.HENDERSON: Right. I think that what's interesting is that when Aunt Vernie was
describing the same place, she didn't call it the Marqueta.LIMES: No?
HENDERSON: Huh uh. Huh uh. It's the same -- just when you were
describing it, I was like, "Oh, yeah, that is the same place that she was describing it," but she didn't --LIMES: Yeah.
HENDERSON: -- (unintelligible) --
LIMES: We called it -- It was always called the -- It's -- From when I know, the Marqueta.
00:53:00HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right. Right. Right.
LIMES: Yeah.
HENDERSON: Uh, and why -- And you, you mentioned a while ago that you all didn't
play in the courtyard and that you played on the street --LIMES: Oh, that was, it was dangerous back there. It was, um, it was dark, it
was dingy --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and threw things out the window, people threw garbage down, it was --
That's where the garbage cans were all in, and it was --HENDERSON: Ohhh --
LIMES: -- small, enclosed --
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: It wasn't a courtyard that would be a (unintelligible) --
HENDERSON: Oh! Oh. Oh.
LIMES: It was one of those dark places where --
HENDERSON: (laugh) --
LIMES: Even --
HENDERSON: Well, like the backs of all the buildings met?
LIMES: Yes. Mm hm.
HENDERSON: I see.
LIMES: And the buildings were back-to-back from one street to another street, so
the buildings going north on your street faced the buildings coming south from the next street --HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- and there was that little alleyway --
HENDERSON: Ohhh --
LIMES: -- and that's what we'd call the "courtyard."
HENDERSON: Oh, okay. Okay.
LIMES: But it wasn't really a --
HENDERSON: That's what -- because when you said a "courtyard," I was thinking --
LIMES: No.
HENDERSON: -- "Well, that doesn't sound so bad. Why didn't anyone play in it?"
but -- (laughter) 00:54:00LIMES: No. We weren't allowed to -- And, and then you weren't seen by anybody --
HENDERSON: Yeah.
LIMES: -- and so nobody could watch you back there.
HENDERSON: Yeah. Right.
LIMES: So --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- we went back there to do mischief, but (laughter) --
HENDERSON: (laughter) Where you didn't want to be seen?
LIMES: Yes. Yes. Uh when, when we got to an age when we, you wanted to roll
dice, that's what we did.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Uh, we went back there to roll dice and played for money. We had people,
we didn't want nobody seeing (unintelligible) --HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: Uh, and we had our favorite game of pitching the pennies and see who got
closest to the wall, and everybody would pitch pennies and whoever got closest to the wall, you took all the pennies from that that game.HENDERSON: Oh.
LIMES: (Unintelligible) we all threw the pennies and they landed against the
wall and whoever was on the wall or closest to the wall, took those ten pennies. Then we threw some more.HENDERSON: And that was something y'all --
LIMES: (Unintelligible) --
HENDERSON: -- didn't want anyone --
LIMES: No! because that was gambling --
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: -- and we were giving away our money --
00:55:00(laughter)
LIMES: -- or winning somebody's money.
HENDERSON: (laughter) And how, how old were y'all when you were doing that?
LIMES: Uh, probably ten, eleven, somewhere around in there.
(laughter)
LIMES: Where we shouldn't of been, you know taking hard-earned money --
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: -- and pitching it against the wall and losing it. But, uh --
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: You know. But those who, those of us who were good at it, always wound up
making some money --HENDERSON: Making it back --
LIMES: -- making some good money. And you could -- you elevate from pennies to
nickels to quarters and (laughter) --HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: You know. I remember in high school pitching quarters.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And that was my little lunch money, but I always wound up with more money
than I --HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: You, you found ways to make the coins flip and what you wanted was a
leaner where the coin actually leaned on the wall rather than being flat --HENDERSON: Ohhh -- And then (laughter) and the that's who would win?
LIMES: That's the winner, yes.(laughter)
LIMES: And if somebody threw a leaner, then you tried to slid your coin and
00:56:00knock it so it'd fall over.(laughter)
LIMES: But, yeah, those were the, the things we did that, that were supposedly fun.
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: You know? But not, not -- I, I wouldn't even say for not just, not proper
to do --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Mom would give you ten cents and you'd go out there and try and make it
twenty cents or thirty cents.HENDERSON: (laughter) Now when -- Well, first of all, why would you get the ten
cents for lunch?LIMES: Um we, we did a lot of things to earn money and, and so like Ron, T.J.
and I would deliver newspapers in the morning.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: We would -- And, and we would give the money to Mom.
HENDERSON: Oh.
LIMES: Um, Ron and T.J. shines shoes. I worked -- I was always the little -- I
don't want to say "nerd," but I'll use that term. I was always the little nerd, 00:57:00so I worked in Poncho's Electronics Shop --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and I became his -- and, and I know you don't know what these are, but
I became him tube-tester.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: The old T.V.s didn't have transistors or solid-state circuit, they had
tubes, and I used to test the tubes and make sure -- And when we went on a job, and I used to go with him, I would test the tubes in the apartment on their old T.V. and then I would replace the tubes that needed to be replaced in the back of their T.V.HENDERSON: And how old were you when you were doing this?
LIMES: Ten, eleven, twelve --
HENDERSON: Whoa --
LIMES: -- thirteen. Yeah. I, I was always curious about things like that --
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- and so I would, that's what I, I worked with Poncho.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: And Ronald did other things, and we always did something.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Uh, we'd go to uh, take the, the, the wagon that you pull the groceries in.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And I know people don't use those now. But we would take the wagon to the
00:58:00A&P or Safeway, the two big markets, and help people home with groceries --HENDERSON: Um. Mm hm.
LIMES: -- then they'd give you a nickel or a dime. I mean -- You'd think today a
nickel or a dime is -- that was big money!HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And you'd do it three, four times. If you came home with a dollar, you
were in good shape.HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: Now, we out of respect, would give it to Mom, but then she would always
give us something back.HENDERSON: Um. Mm hm.
LIMES: And if I'd brought home -- and I could, on a Sunday, because we would get
the papers and then deliver them and get tips --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- um, I could come home with six dollars in tips --
HENDERSON: Oh, wow.
LIMES: -- and she would give me fifty cents, thirty-five cents. Whatever she
gave me, I was happy for --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- but I was happy because I was helping, too. And so we would give her
the money and then she would allot a -- And I think mom used to just keep it there and just give it back to us --HENDERSON: Right.
00:59:00LIMES: -- slowly but surely, but I didn't know that.
HENDERSON: Right. Right, right, right.
LIMES: But I know that whenever I would give her something, she would give
something back. And that's the same thing with Ronald and T.J., you know, uh --HENDERSON: So you were pretty sure she would use it only when something else
came up, what? That you needed or that you --LIMES: Yeah, yeah...
HENDERSON: -- asked for?LIMES: -- she would use, she would -- I think she would
use it, but she always -- and I don't want to say "a tab," but she always had an idea of what we had contributed --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and if we needed something, you know -- Even if she had to dip back
into the family funds, she had used what we had given her for milk, bread --HENDERSON: Right. Right, right.
LIMES: -- whatever --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- and so she would give something back.
HENDERSON: And what, um -- Why did you all do this, like go out to work? Why
would you -- What kind of impelled you to do it?LIMES: We didn't have.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
01:00:00LIMES: Um and, like I told you, I remember putting cardboard and, and newspapers
in my shoes.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Um, Christmastime our excitement was -- and I don't know if you remember
what Lionel trains are? The model trains --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- that -- Well, for Christmas, instead of me getting a train, I got a
car -- one car.HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: Ronald got a car. T.J. got a car.
HENDERSON: Oh, Mm hm.
LIMES: I told you about working together. Well, we had to put our cars together
to make a train.HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: And that's how we played.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: I may get a gun, a cap gun, and Ronald still had his cap gun, so he got
caps --HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- and I had to borrow the caps from him --
HENDERSON: (laugh)
LIMES: -- so we had to share.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: So it was a lot of that when you don't have. Um, you -- School trips, uh,
01:01:00most of them were free, but then you had souvenirs and little things you wanted to buy. Well, Mom and Dad didn't have that --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- so we -- And, uh I saw my older brothers and sisters doing it --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- so I did it.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Ronald started selling newspapers long before I did -- well --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- I say "long, maybe two years before I did --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- and then I got hold enough and I started doing that.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: Then T.J. got old enough and he started doing it.
HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: So it was Ron and I. Then Ron went off to shoe-su -- shining, so then
T.J. and I took over --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- the newspaper business, because Ron could make more in shoe-su --
shining than newspapers. So it, it was -- And shoe shining, you stayed in one spot. Newspapers, you had to hump...HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: (laughter)
HENDERSON: So he promoted himself --
LIMES: Yes.
HENDERSON: -- and gave the -- Um, did you did you all, besides with your
01:02:00brothers, did you have a conversation with Nana or Dad, like did you talk to them and tell them y'all were going to work or --LIMES: No.
HENDERSON: ...did you just work?
LIMES: We just did it, because I saw that being done.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: It was, um -- And I don't know whether it was expected of us, but I saw
Ferdie doing it, I saw Ronald doing it, I said, "Well, that's what I'm supposed to -- I'm a young boy growing up and I can do these things." We used to help, um, Parko (phonetic). Parko, we, we said was our uncle.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: I don't know if you remember Teddy?
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: That was Teddy's dad.
HENDERSON: Oh, okay.
LIMES: He had a moving company.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: Now they were considered family --
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- and Teddy was raised as one of our brothers.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Well we used to go to Parko when he had a job and we would start moving
furniture with him.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: I learned to -- and not just myself, but my brothers -- I learned to
carry a refrigerator on my back --HENDERSON: Oh (unintelligible) --
01:03:00LIMES: -- I learned to carry washing machines, I learned to carry sofas and
chairs, and we were young kids. And when I say "young," teenagers, young teenagers but that's how we made money.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: It was always a work ethic.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: You always had to do something I guess because everybody around you was
doing something.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: I never saw a lazy man.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: I didn't -- I never saw Rocky sitting on his butt. I never saw Dad
sitting on his butt.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: I never saw any of the men in my life, they were always doing something.
So when I was growing up, all I saw was men working. That's what I --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: So it wasn't never something that they came to me and said, "You -- This
is required," or, "This is expected."HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: It was something I just followed --
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- and I wanted to be so much like Ronald because Ronald would get his
01:04:00little money and he would now be able to buy a little hat or --HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: I mean, Ronald was the cool dresser, so I, that's who I wanted to be.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: Uh, you know, if he got a pair of, uh, as we called them, "kicks," a pair
of Converse sneakers, I wanted those converse sneakers --HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: I knew how to get it --
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- because I knew I could work. Mom couldn't give them to me.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: So I knew I could work.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And I, if I gave her the money, she would save it, and I could get my Converse.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: So, that's what we did.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And, unfortunately, I see a lot of our youth today not have that example
in front of them.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: I saw it in my whole block you know, the Garbers (phonetic), the dad was
a painter, a lot of their boys -- they had the, the, the twelve -- a lot of the boys went with him on his paint jobs.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: They'd wear the, the big coveralls, and they'd come back full paint, but
01:05:00they were happy, because they made money.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And that's all I saw in my life.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Uh, and, like I said, we don't have that element today where you see the
men all around you.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: You know, I, I was amazed here, I don't -- They'd never come out.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: They go to their garage --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- and they'd never show again 'till that car comes back out.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: Well, nobody sitting on the stoop, nobody sitting on the porch, nobody
sitting and saying, "Hi, neighbor."HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: And so you, you have that, that void of, of, of the, the role model --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- because I don't -- You, I know what Paul and them do, because we talk
to him, but the guy next door, I didn't know what he did.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: He never came out, and he was never friendly and never open.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And when we're sitting on a stoop together, we have to talk.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: So, I always knew.
01:06:00HENDERSON: And it sounds like that's something that you experienced or saw
whether you were in New York or Georgetown.LIMES: Yes.
HENDERSON: Like you saw people.
LIMES: Mm hm. People.
HENDERSON: Like there was that kind of community.
LIMES: Yes.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And so that's what I was raised into --
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- and so that's what I, um I had hoped to emulate, was that type of
modeling for my kids.HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: Uh, my kids saw me work two jobs. My kids saw me work two jobs so their
mother could go to school and she didn't have to work --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- because I wanted her to finish school.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: My, my kids saw those things, and then I saw in them, the same types of
struggles or --HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- the same type of, uh, the spirit of -- I don't want to say
"advancement," but just the, the spirit of accomplishment --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- getting things done. They need -- Whatever it took, they went to get
things done, you know, so --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
01:07:00LIMES: Yeah, I, I, um -- It wasn't -- It, it was nothing ever said by Dad or Mom
that, "We expect you at fourteen to get a job," or -- it was something that I saw my older siblings do and I knew that that that was a way to help our family.HENDERSON: Now, you mentioned the older brothers --
LIMES: Mm hm.
HENDERSON: -- that you saw, making sure that when they were of age they went out
to work. Now, did you see that with the girls?LIMES: I saw the girls take on the household --HENDERSON: Uh --
LIMES: -- because Mom was always sick. I don't know if you know that Mom had a
congenital heart problem.HENDERSON: Oh.
LIMES: She had a valve that would as the heart is beating, the valve is supposed
to close, and the blood is pumped out. Well, her valve would open and the blood would back up there.HENDERSON: Ohhh --
01:08:00LIMES: Mom never held a outside job -- not that she didn't work.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: She never held a outside job because of that. She could --
HENDERSON: Ohhh Yeah, I didn't know that --
LIMES: -- not. So, Sadie and Vern took on the burden of raising the kids.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And if you talk to Sadie -- she is, is, uh can be very angry about what
she considered was Mom's laziness, but it was Mom's health.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: But Sadie did more for us than a lot of big sisters would have done.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And so she took on that burden of the household --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and escaped when Melvin came along, she got married and went away.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Well, then it was on Verna and Vern did it for a while until Noble came
into her life, and it fell down to Terrell. And so it was you saw it, you didn't 01:09:00see it outside the outside, but you saw them work hard inside.HENDERSON: Right.LIMES: Um, Sadie did the cooking, the washing, you know, the
laundry, mopping. She did a lot for --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- us. Sadie used to dress me to go to school.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And she'll tell you, she used to fight me.
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: She would -- And one of the big laughs is she would put on one pants' leg
and I would be taking the other one off, because I didn't want to go --HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: -- and so we would fight. Uh, I was a stubborn little kid.
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: I'm -- I'm probably the only one who played hooky in kindergarten.
HENDERSON: (laughter) So were you that age when you were taking off the pant
leg, you were in kindergarten? (laughter)LIMES: I was a stubborn kid, um, and, and I, I, I realize now when I look at
kids and all that -- I was a handful, and Sadie bore that burden.HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: And then Vern. And it was something the way Vern spoke versus the way
01:10:00Sadie spoke. I complied more with Vern (unintelligible) --HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: Vern had that mellow voice that made you want to do.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: Now Sadie had that harsher tone that I said, "I'm not doing it. I don't
care what you think."HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: (Unintelligible) --
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: But, yeah, and, uh, the girls worked inside --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and they worked enormous --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- un -- You don't expect a teenage girl to, to do all the cooking, all
the laundry all the -- She took essentially what Mom was doing and did that herself.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And then subsequently, she shared it with Vern.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: But they were both, I guess, seventeen or eighteen, and they both picked
up the burden as -- We weren't their kids --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- but because, like I said, the age diff -- variance. Sadie's oldest
01:11:00child is older than Mom's youngest child, so --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- you know, Sadie was raising children.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: She raised Terrell, T.J., and myself as her kids.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Um, and so, you know, that's a hard work.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: We were able, the boys, were able to go outside.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: But Sadie had that scrutiny of Mom. Mom was a stickler.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: So -- And if it wasn't right, she'd make you do it over. Well, then, you
know, then you have to do your homework, you have to go to school, you have to do all the other things as well. So --HENDERSON: Hm.
LIMES: So that was -- And we saw that, and, um, even though you don't recognize
that part as much, you know -- As an adult, I know what she labored through.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: When I was a child, I, that was just like a second mother --
HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: -- so I didn't really realize how hard she was working.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: You know. So --
01:12:00HENDERSON: Hm.
LIMES: But it's, it's, um, it wa -- it was a, a -- And, like I said, I don't, I
don't remember people being -- and I'm going to use the word "lazy" -- I don't remember people being lazy.HENDERSON: Um.
LIMES: People did what they had to do --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and I think we lost a lot of that punch, that drive, society today.
HENDERSON: Why?
LIMES: (sigh) I think we've come to elements of we put the clothes in the
washing machine and we turn around and we walk away.HENDERSON: Hm.
LIMES: Understand? We put stuff in the dishwasher. We turn it on and we walk
away. Nobody stands at -- and I mean, I do, still, but nobody stands at the sink doing dishes.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Nobody does a washboard --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- where they're doing it by hand.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: All the things that required us to keep our physicality and stay within
the, the, the task are done.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
01:13:00LIMES: They're done for us, now. How many people have to stand at the stove.
Stoves have timers. The microwave. We have all these conveniences --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- that we didn't have, and so you had to, when you were washing clothes,
when I was young, you had to be there, and you had to wash those clothes. And you didn't have that, "Well, I'm going to put the wash -- laundry on, and I'll go take a nap."HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: We can do that today --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and so we, as children, we -- The children today don't see the efforts
made by the parents or the older, uh, siblings, because all they see is you putting in a load of laundry. They don't know what it, what it entails.HENDERSON: Right. Right, right. And when you, you said you had to stand there,
stand there for what?LIMES: We, well, we washed clothes. We washed them by hand --
HENDERSON: Oh, I see.
LIMES: -- on a washboard.
HENDERSON: I see.
LIMES: So whatever load of laundry you had, you were washing --
01:14:00HENDERSON: Ohhh --
LIMES: -- that load of laundry --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: You couldn't stop and say, "I'm going to take a nap," because the clothes
would stay there.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Today, I can say, "I'll throw in a load and I'll go sit down and watch
T.V.," you know --HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: -- "Oprah's on," or whatever and I'll do that.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: So you had to be in the moment then and you (unintelligible) you know --
You put something on the stove -- we didn't have a crockpot, we didn't have a timer, we didn't have -- You were frying in not all these exotic oils, you were frying in lard.HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: You, you know, and if you didn't the house was smoky (laughter) --
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: Um, and I just think the tasks were, were -- I know we've eased how we do
things, but it's also taken us away from. It's like the car. Uh, you used to be 01:15:00in the moment. Do you know that when um the automatic transmission came in --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- we had started having greater accidents.
HENDERSON: Oh.
LIMES: Do you know when the, the, uh, uh the cruise control came in --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- we started having greater accidents, because you can put it on cruise
control and now your attention wasn't the speed limit --HENDERSON: Right. Right, right, right.
LIMES: -- you were at a constant speed. So those things started taking away from
you being in the moment.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: I have speed -- I had cruise control in the car. I don't use it because I
want to be in the moment.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Well, a lot of people I know use the cruise control --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and they just put it on seven, eight, whatever they going to put it
on, and now they daydream.HENDERSON: Yeah.
LIMES: So, it's it's starting to lose our --
HENDERSON: It's like disengaging --
LIMES: Yes.
HENDERSON: -- from life.
LIMES: Yeah.
HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: And we do it with everything around us.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
01:16:00LIMES: Um, the kids today, what'd we see. Uh, the kids today have these games.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Well, I can come into a room with ten kids and I'll guarantee you eight
have something that they're looking at --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and they're not engaged in --
HENDERSON: Like a screen, a screen.
LIMES: They're not engaging in conversation with their siblings, peers.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: They're not engaging in any type of, uh uh, challenge. They're not
playing cards, they're -- If they're playing cards, they're playing, uh spider -- solitaire on their own.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: They're not playing something with other people.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: So we, we lose some of that human-to-human contact.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And I, I think it shows in what we, yeah, what we do, because I don't
know, you know, Kelly, what you have to do. Um, what does it take to get a PhD?HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Well, when you see Kelly studying all the time, then you'd know. But when
01:17:00kids are on iPods or iPads or --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- this and that, and we don't know what they're doing, have no idea.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: I when I was young, I took thirteen classes in Brooklyn Tech and (laugh)
thirteen classes per day.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: How many classes do they take today? It's, it's really -- You know, I
don't, I don't see kids coming with -- Now, now, maybe, it's fortunate, but I used to come home with two book bags.HENDERSON: Oh, goodness.
LIMES: I had a satchel and, and a book bag of books.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: That was my high school. This is what I did. So those are the -- I, I
just see a lot of, of, of the benefits of society also disengaging society from human-and-human contact, but --HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: -- uh, the most inspirational people in your life are probably teachers.
Well, now you take your, the class online.HENDERSON: Right. Right.
01:18:00LIMES: Do I know what professor Kelly is doing? I have no idea --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- who professor Kelly is.
HENDERSON: Um.
LIMES: I don't see her smile. I don't hear the warmth. I see her write words on
the T.V. --HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: And so we get a lot of that --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- today.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And, you know, I think -- There's the benefit is, yes, more people are ab
-- able to be educated, but the, the sadness is that more people will then lose that inspirational person who led them to want to do.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And it could be dad, it could be mom, it could be the cop on the corner,
it could be the grocery clerk, but they mentored somebody --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- in their lives.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And that's who, when you say (throat-clearing) -- When I was talking
about seeing people. Everybody I know they went and they did and I saw the young men go into the service, and I saw all these things, and I was inspired. Ferdie went to the Air Force.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: I wanted to go to there, because Noble was in the Air Force --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
01:19:00LIMES: -- and Melvin was in the Air Force. And all these men that I looked up
to, they were doing that.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: B.O. was in the Air Force --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: B.O. went because Ferdie was in the Air Force. And then I saw B.O. come
home looking sharp. B.O. was Ronald's age. So that's two years' older than me.HENDERSON: (laugh)
LIMES: You know, Ferdie's, uh, more -- Uh, for Ferdie's eight years old than me.
So when I saw him go, I was still a young kid.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: But when I saw B.O. go. Oh, man! He came home looking good.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: All the women were looking at him.
(laughter)
LIMES: And so you go, "Wow," you know. What did I do two years' later? I went in
the Air Force.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: You know? And so you had, I had role models. And I had a lot of people to emulate.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: I don't see it today.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: I really don't. Um maybe it's just my perspective, but I don't, I don't
see it --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and that's why you hear kids, "Ahhh -- I don't want to do this. I
01:20:00don't want to do that." "What do you want to do?"HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Everyone says, "I don't -- What I don't want to do."
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: I never hear people say, "I want to be a -- " The last person I really
heard say that was Ronnie, your cousin --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- from little kid, "I want to be a pilot." And what did he do? He went --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: He set that as a goal. Ask any child today "What do you want to do?"
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Not a lot have a focus --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- like that.
HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: And I think, um, our teachers are the the, the inspiration for a lot of
people having dreams --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- whereas you know, we need to get that focus back, that, that --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- that smiling person who brought you, um, knowledge and is telling you
01:21:00that the world is yours and you can be anything. So now I can dream about being an astronaut.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: I know my dad couldn't -- Well, there wasn't flight then. But -- You
know, when you had segregation and when you had that type of thing, you couldn't dream about doing some of those things.HENDERSON: Um. Mm hm.
LIMES: A young Black boy couldn't do this or a young Black boy couldn't do that.
Now we have a Black President, so (unintelligible) --HENDERSON: Oh, you can -- Now talk about some of your teachers or we could just
say one.LIMES: Uh, my -- I had two that I will always thank for being a teacher.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: The first was my earliest teacher was Miss Glover.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And the second was my sixth grade teacher, Miss Tucker.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Miss Glover made me know that I was worthwhile.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: She made me realize I had talents.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
01:22:00LIMES: Uh I had artistic ability very early in life and I used to draw and paint
and every -- And she allowed me to explore that part of me.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: I was always gifted in school academically (unintelligible) --
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: Um, academically, but she also let me be gifted artistically.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: She used to encourage me to do posters for the school, and this was --
HENDERSON: Ohhh --
LIMES: -- this was early on. And I wound up doing, probably, a thousand posters
for PS-104 --HENDERSON: Wow!LIMES: -- throughout my career, because every other teacher that
saw my ability --HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- and when there was a theme coming, they would ask me. And they would
actually pull me from class and have me go and do posters.HENDERSON: And so what, what was the age that Miss Glover first had you start --
LIMES: Kindergarten.
HENDERSON: Kindergarten?
LIMES: Mm hm.
HENDERSON: And then just through school?
01:23:00LIMES: Every other teacher realized that --
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- Ms. Glover had found this gem in the rough --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and had polished it and I was gifted at doing posters --
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- both the artistic, the lettering, everything else, and they let me
flow with it. I did posters. I did the, a lot of the posters from there to sixth grade when we graduated.HENDERSON: Wow!
LIMES: Yeah, and that, that was -- And because I was gifted in school, I could --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- handle the -- I did my lessons a lot quicker than a lot of other kids,
and so I had more free time. And instead of giving me extra work to do, they give artistic license --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and so that's what I did.
HENDERSON: Did Miss Glover have any of your other siblings --
LIMES: I think she had most of my other siblings.
(laughter)
LIMES: (Unintelligible) uh -- I think she had Ron.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Um, I don't know if she had Vern. She may have had Vern. But I know she
01:24:00had myself, through Veronica, and I believe Sonia, and -- We remember her because uh, and it's not something that you remember, but it's something I remember about her. She had had facial cancer and so she wore a White pad that's probably a inch, inch and a half in diameter that covered the, the, um, indentation.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And she wore that. And I remember always looking at it. And she says,
"Don't be afraid to ask me about it."HENDERSON: Ohhh --
LIMES: She looked me in the eye and told me. She says --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And she told me what it was -- And she always wore that and, and --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- it fascinated me that here what I saw was a distraction, she saw it as
a focal point.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: because where it was, I had to look in -- into her eyes --
01:25:00HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- and so it taught me to focus --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- on her.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: because now, I thought of, and this is years later. I didn't think it
then, but I thought how she took that one distraction and made it something that we could relate to.HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: And that's how she engaged me and, you know -- So my first interaction
with her was drawing a picture for her.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And I don't know what I, I wrote something mushy on it and she thanked me.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And we became supreme friends that we were.
HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: But she always said, "Ooh, I have another Limes."
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: "Ooh, I have another Limes." And so her experiences must have been great
with my siblings, as well.HENDERSON: Right. Right, right.
LIMES: Yeah. Did anybody ever come and tell me? No, we never discussed Miss
Glover --HENDERSON: Right.
01:26:00LIMES: -- until later when we were talking about teachers or --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- people that influenced our lives. And she propelled us all --
HENDERSON: Wow.
LIMES: -- along a good path.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: Um she was a she was older than Mom, but, you know, a middle-aged White
lady who took a interest and, and loved to hug you and loved to make you feel worthy --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and you, as a teacher, probably can look in your class and tell by
the, um, apparel that they're wearing, who is a little bit more affluent and who is not --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and she saw that, and she saw some (unintelligible) and, uh you know,
uh, I guess she recognized that we were not wealthy by any means, but that we 01:27:00were students and we didn't come from means so she encouraged us to do -- Now, a lot of people who don't come from means are, are tampered down --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- by society. "You're poor, so you're not worthy --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- so you're not this --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: She didn't do that. She did it the other way. "You're poor, but I know
you're going to make it."HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: "You're going to do this. You're going to be this. You're going to -- You
can do anything," okay. (coughing) Excuse me. "Let me help you." And so she made sure that we, one, understood lessons. And I say, "we," uh, not the siblings only but the class.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: But that when she saw certain people -- There was one girl who sang. She
would let her sing to us --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- in the class. And so we had one song a week --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- from this girl.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And the girl could sing.
HENDERSON: (laughter)
01:28:00LIMES: And I thought --
HENDERSON: Wow.
LIMES: -- you know, it, it could be the little Aretha Franklin or Whitney
Houston or whoever. This girl obviously had sung someplace --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- but she was able to use that power to entertain.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Like I was able to use my artistic talent to do -- And I would do posters
for -- We had blood drives. We had, uh -- There was one where they were trying to get kids to open savings accounts, so we did posters on that with money and everything.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: (coughing) And so it was, it was a good -- She was, um, a very positive
person in life outside of the family.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And that was a probably the first person outside of the family who I felt
was like family.HENDERSON: Right. Did you -- Did Nana have any relationship there that you know of?
LIMES: Nothing but positive as far as I know.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
01:29:00LIMES: Now Mom, uh, mom was a a participant in PTA a lot.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: That's another thing that Sadie took over. Sadie went to a lot of our PTA meetings.
HENDERSON: Ohhh --
LIMES: The, the, the, um, conferences and other -- So Sadie contributed a lot
more than people will, will look back and say --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- she spelled Mom on a lot of that type of stuff.
HENDERSON: Right.LIMES: Um, but, yeah, Miss Glover, like I said, she obviously
loved the family because she was thrilled when she had another -- She used to call us "her little leaders."HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Well, we all did well academically in her classes and, and, uh I don't
know how much you can evaluate at kindergarten level, but you see something in children --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and she saw it in us and so she would always say, "I have another Limes."
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
01:30:00LIMES: And I remember when, when Veronica was in school that she said the same
thing --HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: And Ma came home beaming.
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: Another one! Another one!.
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: But Missus Glover was one. And then Missus Tucker was probably the force
in my (unintelligible) because I had got into sixth grade and I was (sigh) I'm going to say, you know, I'll use a term that other use, "a gifted student."HENDERSON: Hm.
LIMES: Um and I didn't know the system. Mom didn't know the system. We didn't
know the system. And Missus Glover pushed mom to give me the test --HENDERSON: This is Miss Tucker.
LIMES: Miss Tucker, I'm sorry, Miss Tucker --
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- pushed mom to get, take, allow me to take the test to go to, uh,
PS-43, which was a school, a program, that I would skip (unintelligible) grade. I went from seventh to ninth grade.HENDERSON: Oh. Oh, wow.
LIMES: So was it three and two. But we didn't know about the program, but it was
01:31:00Miss Tucker who -- And I was the only kid from my school who qualified.HENDERSON: Uh huh. After you tested?
LIMES: Yes.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: I was the only kid who made the, the class and --
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- if it wasn't for her showing mom that there were other opportunities,
you know --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: Um, and, and mom had other kids in the school system before that --
HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: -- but those are things that we weren't exposed to, and I don't know why.
HENDERSON: And what, um, middle school was this?
LIMES: This was -- PS-43 was the
gifted program and kids came from all over New York City to be (unintelligible) school.HENDERSON: And did the, the PS-43, it's formal name or --
LIMES: I, uh --
HENDERSON: Do you know?
LIMES: I don't know that it had a -- We, a lot of the
schools in New York didn't have names. They were, um, just public sc -- Like, I went to PS-103.HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: Now, James Fennimore Cooper was one --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- uh, of the junior high schools.
HENDERSON: Yeah.
LIMES: But forty-three didn't have a name.
HENDERSON: Didn't have name. Okay.
01:32:00LIMES: Right.
HENDERSON: because everyone else was talking about Cooper, like when I talked to them.
LIMES: Yeah. Well, that was the school that most of my siblings went to.
HENDERSON: Went to. Mm hm. (Unintelligible) --
LIMES: My my siblings went to Cooper --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and that was directly across from PS-103.
HENDERSON: Ohhh -- Okay.
LIMES: I didn't go to Cooper.
HENDERSON: Okay.
LIMES: I went to --
HENDERSON: So at sixth grade -- So you didn't even start at Cooper?
LIMES: No. No.
HENDERSON: You just went --
LIMES: I tested in the sixth grade and went --
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- to the seventh grade at one oh, at, uh, forty-three.
HENDERSON: Oh huh. Uh huh.
LIMES: And -- But the -- You know, my, my siblings should have been in a program
like that.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: They had the intelligence, too --
HENDERSON: I see. I see.
LIMES: -- and we didn't, we didn't know about it.
HENDERSON: Know about it and so they -- Because you were, you were the first of
your siblings to have Miss Tucker?LIMES: Yes. Yes.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: She was a young Black teacher who was very -- She had come from Valdosta,
Georg -- (break in audio)HENDERSON: Okay, so she -- oh, she went to UGA?
LIMES: Yeah, she went to the University of Georgia. She was one of the first
01:33:00Blacks, I think, to --HENDERSON: Yeah, I was going to say, at that time.
LIMES: Um, and I, I remember her coming from Valdosta and then she had a
master's, and I don't know what her master's was from, but she talked about the need for us, people of color, to have access to certain programs and that was one. Because when I went to forty-three, there were only in a class of thirty-two, there were six Blacks in that class.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: So we weren't given those opportunities --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- because we didn't know about those opportunities.
HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: And she sought out things from (unintelligible) whether it was, it was
academics, arts -- She sought out programs for her class, uh, her students --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- to seek entrance to.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: And she, she was a great teacher, very young, very pretty, but very I
01:34:00want to say "aggressive," because --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- she made sure that you got -- When she hounded -- Mom wasn't going to
let me test. She wanted me to go to Cooper and --HENDERSON: Ohhh --
LIMES: -- that was the, and PS-43 was out of my district.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: I would have had to take buses and everything else. Cooper, I could walk to.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: So, it was a thing of, "Ohhh, I'm not going to let my baby go way over
there," you know --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- that type of thing. And she got me to, to test. So she got, she got
Mom to allow me to go test.HENDERSON: Right. Do you know how she did that?
LIMES: She spoke to Mom. She came by the house.
HENDERSON: Oh!
LIMES: Yeah.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: She, she came by the house and, um like I said, she was very aggressive,
she was very determined that a student who had the potential was going to be given the opportunity --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- regardless of color --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and so, you know, having a young Black female -- that was the first
01:35:00Black teacher I had, and having her be at an age when she wasn't jaded by the system.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And that's what I feel today.
HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: Then she was just, you know, my pretty teacher.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
(laughter)
LIMES: But to have someone not jaded by the system and wanted to work within the
system but to get her kids -- That was important.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And she, she -- Mom, after one or two visits or three visits or whatever
it was, she finally said, "yes."HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And I was able to go test. And I tested along with, um, I think, nine
other kids from my school, but there were kids from many schools testing.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And I was the only one from my school that made it. You have to have a
what we would consider here a four-point-oh and some of the other things, but you had to have a maturity level and you have to have, um, so you wouldn't be community service, but, um, uh, social aptitude, they wanted to make sure, 01:36:00because we were going to then the class was going to be skipped together, but we were going to be integrated into the group that was older than us.HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: And so they wanted to make sure that we could acclimate. And having five
siblings over than me, I could acclimate with anybody.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: I could've gone to college at that point.
HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: You know? I dealt with folks who were much older, uh, on a steady basis --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and, so, those were the two big influences in my life.
HENDERSON: And so tell me about the program. So when you got in --
LIMES: The program was stringent and rigid. Um almost frightening because I
never had those expectations put on me by any other teacher in any other class.HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: Um, I was used to excelling where I was, and then I became one of a group
of excellers and --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- that's the hardest acceptance in the world --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- to know that you're not -- At my school, I was the I was the -- um,
01:37:00uh, I'll use phrases: the, the captain of the football team, I was the top jock, I was, I was the, the icing on the cake. There, I was just another layer on that cake.(laughter)
LIMES: All these kids were --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- very bright, very -- And most of them had better academic preparation --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- for that school. They, their schools actually trained them to go into
the program.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Since I was the only one in my school going, I had no one else to work
with --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- and so, um, they went in with a language advantage, uh, and when --
They actually, um -- It -- it was a -- you know, to be held to a standard that you weren't held to.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Um academically -- And Ferdie'll tell you I didn't-- -- He can't tell you
01:38:00now, but Ferdie used to say I used to cry if I didn't get a hundred on a test. If I got a ninety-nine, I was distraught, because I found the work so easy for me --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: Going there, the work was probably two levels -- But, it wasn't
(unintelligible) my work --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- that I was required to turn in --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: I did my work probably before I left school --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- when, from kindergarten to sixth grade. There, I had so much homework
and I, I wasn't comfortable where I was at.HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: It wa -- it was daunting for --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: .. me --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- and I didn't know what to expect. I had no one to, to guide me. And so
I, I asked mom to take me out of the program --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and so I did. I mean, I came out after the first -- I didn't want to stay.
HENDERSON: So you completed seventh grade there?
LIMES: Mm hm. Yeah, and I went to -- I came out to James Otis (phonetic) a
01:39:00junior high school in April --HENDERSON: Uh huh.
P: -- I didn't want to stay because I just found it getting harder and harder --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- and I wasn't prepared for it mentally. Academically, I was, but
mentally I wasn't.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Now, I regained some fitti -- footing going back to Otis, because I,
maybe it was a confidence --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- because then I excelled at Otis, and I came out on the top of that class.
HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: So maybe I wasn't comfortable being -- How can I say it? Being, um
mediocre in a group of high-achievers --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- where I was probably more comfortable being the high achiever in a
group that might have been mediocre.HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: So, um, I excelled in the sixth grade. I then again excelled in the
eighth grade --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and they asked me to take the test for Brooklyn Tech, which was
01:40:00another one of those schools.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: I passed that test, so I went to Brooklyn Tech.
HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: And so it was a, a -- And that's where I, I don't know the reason but
that's where, uh again, the work was harder, but then I was able to flow with the work.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: So -- But, it, it was, um -- Brooklyn Tech was a funny school. It was all boys.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: There were six thousand boys in that school --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- in, in the four grades, uh nine through twelve. And it was geared
toward engineering. Every, every course was an engineering course or --HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- every academic course (unintelligible) contributing to engineering.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And, um I did well for three years, but I did, uh that's when my personal
life outside of school started interfering with my school life.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And that's when I had to leave New York --
01:41:00HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- to go live with Vern.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: But Tech was a good school.
HENDERSON: What age was it that you had to leave? Or -- And what grades were you in?
LIMES: I was completing the eleventh grade.
HENDERSON: Oh, okay.
LIMES: So, I had to spend my twelfth grade in Dover and --
HENDERSON: Oh, okay.
LIMES: -- and Pittsburg.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: But, um, Tech was a, a good, it was a good place, but, um, I allowed the
streets to draw me from -- And not that drew me from school, because I stayed in school. Tech (coughing) Tech was the place I was telling you I, I took thirteen courses. We had a long day but we took courses that schools don't normally give. There were four major schools in New York. There was Brooklyn Tech, was engineering, Bronx High School was Science, was the chemical and, and, and, uh, physical sciences, Stuyvesant was mathematics, and then you had, uh (coughing) 01:42:00performing arts and you had to test for all four to get in.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: It was a very small element that got into the schools. But when I got in,
uh, again, uh because of the way the New York City School System was structured, out of the six thousand boys, there was sixty-seven Black males in that school.HENDERSON: Out of six thousand?
LIMES: (coughing) Yeah. Sixty-seven.
HENDERSON: What?LIMES: There were two hundred and forty or so Asians and the
rest were male Whites.HENDERSON: What?
LIMES: Mm hm. Yeah. We had a very small representation. And New York City
Schools didn't, didn't prepare you for schools like that. If you were in a minority community, you weren't prepared. I remember, and I'll drift back for a second, when I went to forty-three, the Berrys (phonetic) were next door. They 01:43:00living in the building next to us, they, um -- I grew up with one of the Berrys. And they moved away to Mt. Vernon.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: It was a more exclusive sub -- suburb type environment. And the school
she went to there, they had teachers who used to, there was a group of six of them that made the accelerated class. They used to have preparation from one teacher who would sit with them and go over work that they were expected to --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: So a lot of the schools had special programs --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- to get kids into special um, classes.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: The minority schools didn't. And I say "minority." The schools in
minority neighborhoods did not do that type of preparation --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and it was the same thing in Brooklyn Tech. We weren't expected to
make that list --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- and, and so consequently, we didn't have a lot of Blacks make the
01:44:00list. Those four schools are -- Dyson, the, uh (unintelligible) he's a product of --HENDERSON: Yeah. Mm hm.
LIMES: -- Bronx High.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Those were the you know, those who went usually excelled or were
over-achievers --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- um, but very few minorities made those four schools --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- you know, during that, that period of time. It was, it was a rough --
Not that the school was rough. It was rough getting the knowledge to the minority parents. Like, just like my mom never knew about forty-three.HENDERSON: Right.LIMES: Um, she had no idea of Brooklyn Tech.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: It was teachers at James Otis that told us about the, the, the
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- citywide testing.
HENDERSON: And why do you think that is, that, that the, in the minority, in the
schools that had primarily minority populations, there was no extra prep, and 01:45:00that the, the parents of the kids didn't know about these programs.LIMES: There, there was no expectation. Like Vern was very gifted academically
-- my sister --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and they wanted her to go to a commercial school to study secretarial science.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: She said, "I don't want that. I wanted to go into a nursing." They
wouldn't let her go.HENDERSON: Um huh.
LIMES: So, even though you're gifted and, and academically prepared or eligible
to go, they didn't expect that you would succeed --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- and so they never pushed you, they never exposed you to certain things.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: Now, she, she could have tested and gone into one of the special schools --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- never did. Ron never did. Because no one ever told them, "This is
where you should be going."HENDERSON: Right, one of these four?
LIMES: Yeah. Yeah. She, Vern could have gone
to, to Science, Bronx High School --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- but no one ever told her that this is the test you should take. They
01:46:00told her, "Go to Central Commercial."HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: "Go to," you know, "Go to another school. You want to be prepared when
you graduate, so you can get a job."HENDERSON: Yeah. Yeah. Right.
LIMES: Well, that's not what her academic excellence had shown.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Her, her G.P.A. coming out of high school was near the top.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: She should've been going to one of those schools that were college prefor
-- preparatory and not one of the schools that was just, just for a vocation --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- and so that's, that's where they used to put you. Um, Ferdie, Ferdie
was pretty intelligent and they pushed him toward needle trades which was sewing.HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: Now --
HENDERSON: Now, who's the "they?"
LIMES: I say "they," because I, uh, the, the, uh, the academic advisors that we
spoke with that --HENDERSON: That were part of the school?
LIMES: Yes. And part of the school that
01:47:00you were coming out of. Now, the academic advisors in another school would have told you something different. James Otis the school I went to, because I was coming out of that accelerated program um I went into what they call the "college-bound" program at, at Otis.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: All the kids who were in the normal academic program took Spanish as
their language. I took Italian.HENDERSON: Oh!LIMES: That was supposed to be a more advanced language.
HENDERSON: Oh.
LIMES: In forty-three, I took French, not Spanish.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: I didn't know anybody who spoke those languages.
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: There was never a time I could practice it.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: Er -- all the kids who took Spanish, they practiced in their block.
HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right.
LIMES: They --
HENDERSON: (laugh)
LIMES: (laugh) So they, they did well. But they had a, a, a -- It's not a
prejudice, but it's, it's a, it's a a belief that certain languages required 01:48:00certain intelligences.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: French was a more uh, educated language than Spanish was? I don't see it,
but that's, if you were in a certain uh, academic range, you took French. Then the next range, you took Italian. Then in lower range, you took Spanish.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Well it, I don't understand it, but that's what they did.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: But the people that advised me in Otis because Otis was rated better than
Cooper, advised me to take the special placement test for Brooklyn Tech, whereas, my siblings who went to Cooper, weren't advised as such.HENDERSON: Right. Right. Hm.
LIMES: So it's the school that you were graduating from --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- that had the advisors that would -- Now, if your school was
01:49:00predominately in a minority setting -- and even though they had Whites or other ethnicities going to it, if that school didn't prepare you to go to Brooklyn Tech, how would you know?HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: How would your parents know? Because none of the kids around you --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- went to Brooklyn High.
HENDERSON: And so where was Otis?
LIMES: Otis was in a Italian neighborhood.
HENDERSON: Ohhh --
LIMES: It was predominantly Italian going to that school.
HENDERSON: And how did you end up going there rather than back to Cooper?
LIMES: Because I came out of the accelerated program
HENDERSON: And so then that's where they put the kids?
LIMES: Yes. They put me there.
HENDERSON: Oh, I see. I see.
LIMES: They put me there even though I, I, I would've have been I wouldn't been
in the accelerated, if I would've stayed in the accelerated program, they knew I had the potential --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- so they knew, having completed the seventh grade there, that I could
handle the work. I was uncomfortable. I asked to be pulled out --HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- so they put me in a, in a they call it "college-bound," the program
01:50:00that they knew the kids who had the intelligence were going to go further.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And that's where I find the imbalance: they're telling certain kids, "You
are going to go to college and you're going to do well," and they're telling other kids, "I'm not training you for college."HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: Well, the potential is there on both sides.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: You know?
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: Why would you do that? Why would you segregate the kids
yourself?HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: And that's what they were doing.
HENDERSON: Huh. That's interesting.
LIMES: And so because of Otis, I took the test for Tech.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Now the kids that are coming out of Cooper weren't taking that test.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: So there was certain schools around the city that was sending their kids
for placement into Brooklyn Tech and Bronx High School and the other schools.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And so I went to Tech for three years --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and I struggled. I, it was a long commute for me, going from Manhattan
to Brooklyn --HENDERSON: Right.
01:51:00LIMES: -- but I did it. And then I started, um, seeing the drug trade --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and I decided --
HENDERSON: Okay, so we -- I had in my mind where we were, and then I for -- Oh,
we, because we were talking about the schools --LIMES: Yes.
HENDERSON: -- the high schools, oh, or the, the middle schools being sent --
Okay. Um, so you -- I wanted to talk a little bit more about your interests and your abilities, because --LIMES: Okay.
HENDERSON: -- you made clear that you were interested, you were artistic --
LIMES: Mm hm.
HENDERSON: -- in, uh elementary school, kind of --
LIMES: Yes.
HENDERSON: -- all the way through. And then how did that, or did that develop as
you got older?LIMES: Well, it, it did and, and, um a lot of my, the interest stayed.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: The support didn't. Um I, and that, I've learned as an adult that my Dad
01:52:00had a focus on certain things, and my Dad believed that (sigh) young Black men should be teachers or engineers.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Um and I wanted to be an artist.
HENDERSON: Now where do you think -- because he was neither a teacher nor an
engineer. Where do you think that idea came from?LIMES: The successful Black men he had seen in his life were teachers or engineers.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Um, as you know, I have two uncles who were, um, professors.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Uh, both James and (unintelligible) and -- Um, so we had that academic
side of our --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- life. And then the other people he had seen, that he had known from
Georgetown, were successful engineers. And I learned this later on after Dad had 01:53:00pass from Mom, that some of the Black men that were part of the Georgetonian Club were engineers --HENDERSON: Ohhh --
LIMES: -- and were successful.
HENDERSON: Oh.
LIMES: He didn't see any Black artists. He knew -- We had a Black musician, um,
Thedra's husband, Watson, was a musician. He had seen that part of it, but that was the nightclub part to him --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- that wasn't where, uh, a person would want to raise a family, because
Uncle Watson, being a musician and traveling, that's why him and Thedra broke up. They never had kids together, so that wasn't a state in life you wanted to --HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: But the artistic life, he felt that, that wasn't a Black life, that
wasn't a Black male life --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and so, um, he wanted me to go -- And, and I was always gifted, uh, I
guess as Mom was, in mathematics, and so I excelled in that, and that's when I 01:54:00went Brooklyn Tech, and then I did some of the other things -- He saw that part, that I, I had the capability to be a good engineer, a great engineer.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And so that's where he always wanted me to go --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Uh, there were many times -- And I did both. Uh, but there, there was one
time, I was in a, a flower-arranging contest at the Brooklyn Botanical Gardens --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and I brought home a first place medal --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and he didn't equate that with success -- uh -- If I'd brought home a
track medal, that was great.HENDERSON: Hm.
LIMES: Bringing something home from the arts was not.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And so I was not discouraged, but I wasn't encouraged --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- at all to go to the arts side. Now, I got straight As in my
architectural drawings in, in Brooklyn Tech -- 01:55:00HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: I -- Anything that had to do with the, um, uh, visualization, I always
got straight As.HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: But that wasn't what he sought. And even though I painted murals for
people and I did portraits, uh it, it just wasn't where he wanted me to be --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- and so he kept pushing me toward the engineering side. And I rebelled.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: I rebelled. Uh and it probably really hurt me, but that's what life is.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Uh, I started dabbling in the sale of drugs.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And that (throat-clearing) that took my focus away from school. And,
again, not that I did poorly in school, but I was focusing more on the money now, getting away from the poor the, the, the -- And knowing I had two roads. I 01:56:00could do it through academics and work or I could do like the hustlers in the streets. And it wasn't until my partner in crime -- there were two of us selling drugs in Brooklyn Tech -- uh, it --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- wasn't until we tried to get out, it was then were getting to the
point where we were going to graduate and go to college and so we wanted to back away from all that.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And we were selling toward the same Italian group that we had gone to
school with --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and they killed him.
HENDERSON: Oh!
LIMES: Yes. They hit him in the head with a bat and killed him.
HENDERSON: Because he wanted to get out?
LIMES: Mm hm. We were making too much money for them. And, so I came home and
confessed to Mom and Dad --HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- what had happened, what we were doing --
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
01:57:00LIMES: -- and I guess either the next morning or the morning after, but I think
it was the next morning, Vern was there to take me away.HENDERSON: Right. Oh, wow.
LIMES: And it's hurtful, that part of it because I disappointed them.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And that's when I went to live with Vern --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- because I was afraid of getting killed --
HENDERSON: Yeah!
LIMES: -- like he was.
HENDERSON: Yeah. (laughter)
LIMES: And you know -- And, so, it -- Well, those are the points in life where
you tell kids, "Don't."HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: But you can't tell them why.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And so Vern and Noble literally saved my life --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- by taking me to Dover, Delaware.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: Well, we lived on a base. I knew that they couldn't come on the base,
they couldn't do all those things --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- and Vern (unintelligible) -- They, but Noble took me to the base,
first, and then they took me to the house --HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- and they didn't follow me, but they had hit this boy in the head and
01:58:00killed him. Now, I would have graduated from Brooklyn Tech and probably went onto something in engineering somewhere.HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right.
LIMES: But, um, you know -- And that was the first time I could see hurt in my
parents' eyes. They had this this, this, uh, expectation that I would be in, in their family the first college graduate, the first professional, dah-dah-dah-dah-dah.HENDERSON: For both families?
LIMES: Yes.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And I failed.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And, and I say I "failed." I did something stupid that then caused me to
go away --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- but, at the same time, that I was I lost some focus and I didn't want
-- I wanted to do what I wanted to do. But, again, listening to Dad, uh I went down to Dover and I excelled again, and, and again.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
01:59:00LIMES: It's funny, I look at the times I've excelled, um there's probably been
times I (long pause) not really, but the, sometimes an adversity you excel, because --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- you want to get away from whatever it is.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Uh, I felt the stress in the, in the seventh grade of PS-43 and I went to
Otis and I excelled. I felt the stress of drugs and the academics in the eleventh grade and I went to Dover and I excelled. I, I came out number one in their class.HENDERSON: Hm.
LIMES: Uh, again, and toward the end of the year, we had to transfer to
Pittsburg and Pittsburg allowed me to graduate based on my prior (unintelligible). But Pittsburg also encouraged me, and this is another thing -- 02:00:00Westinghouse High School, I was at. It encouraged me to come back to New York and take the test for the Naval Academy, and I did, and I passed, and, um -- I was seeking an appointment. There was a Congressman who was supposed to appoint me there --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and, um the University of Pennsylvania offered me the ROTC
scholarship, the same as the Naval Academy. I would graduated as a, as a second lieutenant --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- or an ensign and so I was set to go there, and, uh, Dad and I had a I,
I guess a blowout. Uh I graduated that June and we had a blowout about my career --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and going to the Academy and I told him I didn't want to go to the
Naval Academy because that was strictly engineering and I wanted to go to Pennsylvania. 02:01:00HENDERSON: Mm hm. Um, I wanted to break for coffee. That's important. Oh, um so,
so you didn't want to go to the Naval Academy, because that would have an engineering track --LIMES: Yes. Yes.
HENDERSON: -- and you didn't want to be tied to the engineering track.
LIMES: To the engineering. I wanted to see if the University of Pennsylvania
would offer me something else, even though I had the ROTC scholarship --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- and so we had this blow-out about my career --
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- and I ran away. I actually didn't go to school. I went and joined the
Air Force.HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: July 11th, I was -- I graduated June, somewhere around the 7th or 8th --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and I came home on, on the bus and celebrate my birthday, and right
after that and we had, we had, and I was supposed to be going away in August to, back to school.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And he wanted me to go, you know, the Naval Academy's is prestigious and
I didn't want to go.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: So I ran away and joined the Air Force.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
02:02:00LIMES: And, so, that's, that's the, the -- I call it the turning point in my
life, where I decided that me going off instead of going to college, that was a big divergence from where I was supposed to be headed now.HENDERSON: Uh huh. Uh huh.
LIMES: Um several years later, we, I guess, sort of I won't, I won't say
"patched things up," but we came to a understanding that I wasn't going to school right away --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and, uh I volunteered for Vietnam. I went to Vietnam --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and while over there, dad got sick. I flew home. The Red Cross told me
Dad was getting better, so I flew back to Vietnam. Now, he never wanted me to go to Vietnam. That was another argument (unintelligible) --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: In between the time of me going and the time of me going to Vietnam, we
02:03:00had sort of patched things up a little --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- but going to Vietnam was another big argument.
HENDERSON: Now why didn't he want you to go?
LIMES: He felt --
HENDERSON: Why did he say he didn't want you to go?
LIMES: He didn't want his son to die and -- He, he thought it was a senseless war.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: He didn't see the merit in us being over there.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And because I had volunteered, and I had volunteered for the military, I
was I won't use the term "stupid," but I was, um, uninformed.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Okay?
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And he never said "uninformed" but -- And so we had a blowout again, you
know. But I, I was a, an adult then, so there was nothing you could do to make me --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- go. Well, um when I, when I came home, when he was sick, and I went
back, by the time I had landed -- it takes eighteen hours to fly over. So I came 02:04:00home, stayed, I think, a week or two, and then went back. And by the time I got back to Saigon, Thompson, the air force base, the Red Cross met me at the terminal and told me Dad had died. So, I turned around and came back.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Never had a chance to resolve things. Never had a chance to say, "I'm
sorry." Never had a chance to get an apology from him.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And that's haunted me for a long part of my life --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- of what I could have done differently. Even though you can't go back
and change anything --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- you wonder what could have been.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: Uh, would I have taken the Naval Academy, would I had stayed in, uh,
engineering, would I have not started with the drug thing --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- you know, where would I have been and, and what would he have been
proud. And that, that last sentence is the thing that's most important. 02:05:00HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: Would he have been proud?
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And that was the important thing.
HENDERSON: Now (unintelligible) from what everybody else has discussed you're
the only sibling that I've talked to so far that has ever mentioned arguing with Dad at all, much less so frequently.LIMES: Mm hm.
HENDERSON: Like just -- I think that's very interesting.
LIMES: Dad didn't argue and, and Dad was very rigid. He had two rules. Um, don't
disrespect Mom --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and don't ever lie to me.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And you did those things.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Uh, I argued with Dad because I -- Dad intimated to me that my wanted to
be artistic was gay.HENDERSON: Oh.
02:06:00LIMES: And I didn't feel I was gay and I wanted to do what I wanted to do.
HENDERSON: Now how did he -- (laugh) How did -- How was that message conveyed to
you?LIMES: Uh, I'll, and I'll use the term he used, you know, "Only faggots draw."
HENDERSON: Wow. Mm hm.
LIMES: So --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Um, what else can you say?
HENDERSON: Yeah, that's a --
(laughter)
HENDERSON: It can't get much clearer than that. Okay.
(laughter)
LIMES: Okay. Uh, I wanted to draw --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and it wasn't until after the, that that I went to FIT and took
(unintelligible) --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And I did draw, and I did get my with FIT.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: But I wouldn't do it while he was alive because I didn't feel comfortable --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- doing what he want -- what he wanted --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: But he died before I, I had a chance to mature and come together with him.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Now, I've, I've harbored those, those feelings, probably twenty-five,
02:07:00thirty years. Um, it wasn't until one of our sibling reunions that I got to talk to my siblings --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and got a better understanding of who Dad was --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and how he was, and what he, how he grew up.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Because they had greater knowledge of Dad in Georgetown than I did.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: They had a greater knowledge of Dad, um his struggles, than I did.
HENDERSON: What, what were some of the things that they said?
LIMES: Um, just the, the, the -- He was always being compared to Mom's siblings'
husbands --HENDERSON: Oh, I see. Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and what they were doing versus what he was doing.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And he was the -- Out of, out of all the siblings, uh, the females --
There were four males and six females in, in the family.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And out of the females, uh Genevieve was the oldest and her husband was a
02:08:00merchant marine and always making great money and he did asinine things like cutting off limbs and pieces of -- he cut off fingers and toes and other things to get insurance money.HENDERSON: Huh?
LIMES: Uncle Gill (phonetic). He always had a pocketful of money,
but he did things on his ship to cause industrial accidents and he got paid.HENDERSON: Oh. Cut things off of his own body?
LIMES: Yes.
HENDERSON: What? (laughter)
LIMES: Yes.
HENDERSON: I thought you meant like other people's.
LIMES: No, no, no, no. Him. He would pinch something somewhere, those big doors
of steel. He was, worked on the ship. He'd come home with a finger missing. He'd come home with toes missing. He'd come home with half a foot. I mean --HENDERSON: (laughter) --
LIMES: It's a, it's a sick way to make money, but he was successful because he
had money.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: He could, he could buy and do --
HENDERSON: And, and this was admired by the family or --
02:09:00LIMES: Not admired, but he was a successful man.
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: He's the one who helped mom -- Momma and Papa get that house. He paid the
down payment.HENDERSON: Well, yeah, but he was missing things.
LIMES: I -- Yes.
HENDERSON: Okay. (laughter) Okay.
LIMES: Your rationale and my rationale would not say that was "success."
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: But that's who he was.
HENDERSON: Ah, okay.
LIMES: Um, um, two of her sisters have, they had Ph -- the, the husbands have PhDs.
HENDERSON: Mm hm. I see.
LIMES: You know, so you had that competition where here you have the uneducated,
um, laborer --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- matching his skills against people who had other skill sets.
HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: And so it was always comparison and then you had the ten kids, so your
kids were poor and I only had two kids, and I only had one kid, and I only --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: So you, you, you --
HENDERSON: because she -- because Nana was the only sister that had that many.
LIMES: Yes.
HENDERSON: Yeah. I'd never thought about that.
LIMES: Yes. Yes.
HENDERSON: because I know she had brothers, a brother that did.
02:10:00LIMES: Sammy that, that had --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And Chris had six, I think, but she was the only female.
HENDERSON: Oh, uh huh. Okay.
LIMES: You know. Thedra had none, Irma had two, uh, Irma had three -- no, Irma
had four. I, I forget about Kenny.HENDERSON: Mm hm. (laughter)
LIMES: And I shouldn't --
HENDERSON: (laughter) I don't know why you sh --
LIMES: (laughter)
HENDERSON: -- why you would after the watermelon --
LIMES: I, I forget about Kenny. But, um, Theopia (phonetic) had two -- No,
Theopa had one and, and Sister had two, and then Genevieve had two.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: So everybody had small families and their husbands were earning more
money than Dad.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And so it was always the comparison, and they had cars, and they had the
big house, and we lived in a little apartment.HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: All those things.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And, so, Dad's struggles were within and without.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Uh, he struggled with his own, um insecurities and his own uh, criticism
02:11:00from his immediate family.HENDERSON: Right. Right. Which he considered his family by that point.
LIMES: Yes. Yes. And so, he, he was a man of conflict -- in conflict. Um, and
that's according to my, my siblings, who are older and knew what he was going through --HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: -- you know, some of the arguments that him and Mom had were around money
a lot of them.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Um, so that, that -- And, yes, I did argue. I -- But, like I told you, I
was a stubborn little child --HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and so, uh, I guess I grew up into a stubborn little man --
(laughter)
HENDERSON: But you had this drive to be an artist?
LIMES: Yes.
HENDERSON: You wanted to be, and that was your passion.
LIMES: And that is the greatest frustration for T.J. today, because I used to
paint or draw. I, I loved charc -- charcoal and pastels --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
02:12:00LIMES: -- but I used to also paint in oils my siblings. And he is frustrated
with me because I have never painted Aurea or the girls.HENDERSON: So Uncle T.J.'s upset that you've never painted your family?
LIMES: He -- I've never shown them my artistic talents.
HENDERSON: Ohhh --
LIMES: They've never seen anything.
HENDERSON: Why not?LIMES: I don't know. I don't know. I -- And I don't know why
I don't pick up a brush today --HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- and that's, that's my own conflict.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: I, I have no idea.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: Even though I see painting and I see -- You know, Julian tries to paint.
HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: Uh, and I critique his painting for him --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: He doesn't like what I say, but I --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And I just haven't picked the brush up (unintelligible) --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and it maybe be because of earlier --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- subconscious things --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- but I don't paint today.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And that was all I ever wanted to do --
02:13:00HENDERSON: Hm --
LIMES: -- was be an artist so -- You know, those are the, those things in life
that are, that are unknown and un -- un uh -- How can I say it? -- u -- unrequited loves.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: I've always wanted to learn to play in instrument, and I've always wanted
to paint --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and never -- Since I, young adulthood, never did either one --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- ever again.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Yeah. So --
HENDERSON: Hm.
LIMES: -- those are the things in life I hadn't figured out --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and at this stage in my life, I made pick up a brush, but I, I don't
know where I'll go with it at this point.HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: You know, I should have been doing this in my late twenties and thirties,
but -- because dad died when I was, uh twenty-two, twenty-two so -- because I was twenty-two. 02:14:00HENDERSON: And then from then you've --
LIMES: Mm hm.
HENDERSON: -- never --
LIMES: No. I've never -- And I've painted I painted Teresa and I painted Anthony
and Danielle, and then -- I joined the police force in '73 and I, I haven't painted since then.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Yeah, like I said, I have no idea why.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: I painted in Vietnam. That was a way of getting through those long nights
and so I, I did a lot of -- I did, I did a lot of watercolor over there --HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- but, um, yeah, yeah. And T.J. said, you know, "You, you were blessed
with a talent that not many of us get and you didn't use it." But I always was blessed with a brilliant mind and didn't go the academic route that I feel I should have or could've.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
02:15:00HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: So um, but that's, that's, you know, the latter half. The, the early
part, uh, my academic life was good.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: You know. So, it's, uh -- I don't know how to, to recapture the past. I
don't know.HENDERSON: Well, you don't have to. But going into -- You went into the Air
Force and you were there for -- because I don't really know, like military, the separation and what that was like.LIMES: Okay.
HENDERSON: So you went into the Air Force --
LIMES: Mm hm.
HENDERSON: -- um, out of high school.
LIMES: Yes.
HENDERSON: Uh and, and how long were, how old were you, and how long were you
there before you volunteered for Vietnam or what is that --LIMES: Okay. I, I went in the Air Force, I was eighteen --
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- and I went to Vietnam, I was twenty-one.
HENDERSON: Okay.
02:16:00LIMES: So, I've been there about three years --
HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right. Right.
LIMES: -- and I volunteered to go.
HENDERSON: And so when you were in the Air Force, physically where were you?
LIMES: Oh, I started out at Lackland Air Force Base, Texas. Then I went to
Keesler Air Force Base, Mississippi, which is a -- another story within itself.HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: During the sixties, at Keesler, it was when Kennedy was shot.
HENDERSON: Oh, wow!
LIMES: Yeah. I was -- As a matter of fact, it, I and Richard, Terrell's husband,
we were --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- at Keesler's studying electronics when Kennedy was killed.
HENDERSON: Oh.
LIMES: And, um, so I'll never forget that, but, um -- I traveled to New York,
D.C., uh Yokota, Japan, um (unintelligible) in the Philippines --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
02:17:00LIMES: -- Minot, North Dakota, um California, uh trying to think of the name of
the air base in California. Griffiss up in Rome, New York MacDill here in Florida.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: So I traveled --
HENDERSON: In three years?
LIMES: -- a lot. No, I, I did eight years --
HENDERSON: Oh, okay.
LIMES: -- in the military. I did eight years (unintelligible) --
HENDERSON: Okay. Okay. Okay.
LIMES: So -- And my last, um, two and half years were in what was called "strike
command." That would be the precursor to what the Special Ops people are doing, like the SEAL team and DELTA force and --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: We were -- And the Air Force component was to, to parachute in behind the
lines, set up communications and then have the others come in, or aircraft come in for bombs --HENDERSON: Uh huh. Uh huh.
LIMES: -- so that's what I was, I was trained in.
HENDERSON: Ohhh -- Okay.
LIMES: So. And I really loved it. Um, well, I loved the excitement of it.
HENDERSON: Right.
02:18:00LIMES: Well, the, the job was hard (laugh) --
HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right.
LIMES: -- but the excitement was good.
HENDERSON: And how did you end up leaving the military?
LIMES: I left the military because of Teresa.
HENDERSON: Um --
LIMES: I was gon -- We were here, stationed at MacDill Air Force -- not here,
here -- stationed at MacDill Air Force Base in Tampa and because I was on strike command I was deployed probably twenty-five to thirty, twenty-five to twenty-eight days out of every thirty days, I was gone.HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: She was young, from New York, and we had Anthony.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: We had one child --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and I would go to work in the morning and not know that I wasn't
coming home that night.HENDERSON: Ohhh --
LIMES: I'd be on a plane and we'd go someplace --
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- and I had to call her and tell her, "I'm not coming home."
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: The car's at the base, when I took the car to work.
HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: Now, you have to get groceries or you have to do something and -- So she
02:19:00left, and she went back to New York, and said she wasn't coming back.HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: And I told the commander then, I said, "I have to go." I said, "That's it."
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: So, at the end, he asked me was I going to reenlist, and I would have
gotten a bump in, in rank and everything else to reenlist after my eighth year, and I said, "No."HENDERSON: Ohhh --
LIMES: "I'm gone." So, what I asked for was an (throat-clearing) administrative
discharge, which is a honorable discharge, but instead of completing the full eight years, I did seven years and ten months.HENDERSON: Oh, wow.
LIMES: They let me out two months' early --
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- because of that, the --
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- hard -- They call it, not a hardship discharge, but an administrative
discharge --HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- but it's under the same conditions of honorable discharge. It's just
that (throat-clearing) you didn't do the full term.HENDERSON: Yeah. Right.
LIMES: But I, I, I had my honorable --
HENDERSON: So then you were --
LIMES: And the funny part is, I didn't know that I was coming back home and
several years later, I'd be divorced. (laughter) 02:20:00HENDERSON: Mm hm. (laughter) Well --
LIMES: (laughter)
HENDERSON: -- how can you know such things?
LIMES: But, um, I had missed the excitement. I went to work for Burrows as a, as
a computer engineer and then computers were very rudimentary then, uh, but it was good work, but then the draw of the police department called. And I liked the idea of going back in uniform.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And so I took the test and was appointed in '73.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: So I spent three years out of uniform.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And, uh, from '73 to '91. And, um got out on disability, actually got
hurt, and, um, came down here --HENDERSON: Um -- Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and been here since.
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: Enjoying Florida.
HENDERSON: To Florida, yeah. Yeah.
LIMES: Yeah. But life is life is an adventure, and I think I've lived an adventure.
HENDERSON: (laughter) It sounds like it. It definitely sounds like it. Well,
02:21:00let's, um, switch gears for a moment and uh, talk about Nana.LIMES: Okay.
HENDERSON: So you were talking about, uh your artistic, um, drive not really
being supported by Dad. What was going on with Nana?LIMES: She, she encouraged
me to explore that part of me, but Nana also from early academic excellence, thought that I would go to work in medicine.HENDERSON: Oh, okay.
LIMES: She always wanted me, she, especially after the sixth grade when I got
accepted into the school and she knew I had the potential to go, she always told, always spoke to me about medicine, what it would be like to be a doctor, because that was her dream --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
02:22:00LIMES: -- of medicine, or to be a college professor.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Um, and they were pushing her to be a doctor, but she got married to Dad --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and so all her dreams went away, especially when she moved to New York.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: But, um, mom was, was very supportive of my art. Matter of fact, she used
to I'd, I'd say she used to, uh, commission me out (laugh) to, um.. Someone would see some drawings. I, I went to people's homes and did murals, whole wall murals.HENDERSON: Oh, wow. Mm hm.
LIMES: (Unintelligible) -- And I --
HENDERSON: And who were these people, like --
LIMES: Friends of the --
HENDERSON: -- (unintelligible) --
LIMES: -- the family.
HENDERSON: Oh. Okay.
LIMES: They, they would, um they would come by and -- I used to -- Mom wouldn't
let me do a mural on her, but you know the, the, the large brown wrapping paper?HENDERSON: Yeah.
LIMES: I would do wrapping paper, uh, probably four foot by six-foot paintings
and hang those on the wall. 02:23:00HENDERSON: Oh, wow.
LIMES: She never let me do it on the wall because she said if they had to paint
over it, it would cost too much --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- but she would let me hang up paintings.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And I'd do a number of paintings, I'd do some portraits. I did a lot of
aquatic scenes and, you know, the, the, the flowing colors. And people came to the house and saw it and, "Oh!" and they asked her permission, and I've gone to several people's homes and done a whole wall.HENDERSON: Wow.
LIMES: So, it, it -- She used to, I used to say she used to pimp me out, but --
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: You know, she and she always told people, "No," you know, "no money," but
then they always gave something for me and --HENDERSON: Yeah, I was going to ask, how did you all get the money for paint?
Or, or they would provide.LIMES: They -- Our little escapades and, and uh, Sister, Dad's sister, um used
02:24:00to get me -- Uh, the pastels, I could get, but the oil paints, Sister used to get for me.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: She knew I loved to paint --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: So what I would do is, she would have bingo nights and she, there would
be chips in glasses and everything all over the place. We would go ov -- over and clean up. Now, I don't know whether they were drunk or they did it on purpose. There was always twenty-five dollars in coins on the floor.HENDERSON: Oh. Mm hm.
LIMES: And she would let us, because we were picking up the chips and
everything, and she would let us keep the coins that were on the floor.HENDERSON: Oh.
LIMES: I think that folks used to throw it down there, because you just don't
lose that much money on the floor.HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: But Ronald, Terrell, T.J. and I -- that was, again, one of our things.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: We would go, collectively, we, and we'd have, maybe, five dollars apiece --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- in coins.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And Sister would let us -- Now that was our money for helping her.
02:25:00HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: So I think they sort of threw it down there and knew, knowing that we
would clean it up and get it.HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: And she never said that, and we never asked. You know, we told Mom and
that "Sister, Aunt Sister let us keep this," you know, so --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- that's how we used to get some of that stuff. But we'd, we hustled. We
did things for people. Um if you would, uh, say a little list, I'd run to the store and get your --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- stuff. And I was a little -- I, I won't say "little." I was probably
eight years old, running to the store for people.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Seven years old, running to the store.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And that's how safe it was.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: You know. The Safeway was three blocks away. I could go to the Safeway by
myself. I didn't like to, so I would take T.J. and Terrell --HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: -- but we would run to the store, get something and come back and we'd
make twenty cents.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Twenty cents was a lot of money at that time --
02:26:00HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- so -- But that's how we got the money or that's how I got a lot -- A
lot of my, my, um uh, supplies were donated by Sister.HENDERSON: Oh, okay.
LIMES: Yeah. And she used to love me to draw. I would draw little things for
her, and she would love and put them up on the wall --HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: So -- But Mom was supportive. Mom encouraged me to paint.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: She encouraged all of us to do something artistic. She had a friend that
taught piano.HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: Every single one of my siblings, except for Rocky, I think, were offered
piano lessons, and you know none of us played piano? And that person lived in our building.HENDERSON: Wow.
LIMES: So, it's, it's something that you had a resource there and you didn't use
it --HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- but we've all regretted that --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- we all want to play something --
HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right.
LIMES: -- and had it in our fingertips.
02:27:00HENDERSON: Uh huh. And didn't. Hm.
LIMES: Yeah.
LIMES: But she encouraged dance. She encouraged, uh you know, music. She
encouraged the arts.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And, and it -- It wasn't strange for her. It, it, it was probably more
strange for Dad.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: But, yet, she supported a lot of Dad's decisions. If he said, "no," then
it was no.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: So and she have may been more conflicted than a lot of people because she
wanted us to do especially Vern, Verna was a good dancer, she wanted Vern to do what Dad didn't want, that that wasn't -- I don't know -- Uh, he would say things sometimes, and it was strange, like, "It's not ladylike." It's not this or it's not that.HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: And that was his feeling, but, you know, um, I think if Dad were alive
today he would not speak of the things he spoke of in the same from the same 02:28:00reference points --HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: -- and so I have to give him that, that --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- that was his reference point at the point, at the time.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: You know, and I, I had this struggle in life with dad, so I don't know
from whence he came.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: I don't know what his, what germinated that feeling in him.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: because he he was a good man, a loving --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- man, loving father, loving -- Yeah. It's just that he was strict in
his beliefs.HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: And so --
HENDERSON: And so in that case, like, uh a young woman dancing or wanting to be
a dancer was not --LIMES: That was more lewd than artistic.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Uh, a male dancer for, or, or a painter was more gay than straight.
HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
02:29:00LIMES: Um, now what made that belief? because I don't think he knew dancers.
HENDERSON: Right. (laughter)
LIMES: I don't think he -- The only dancers he saw were in the clubs.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: I don't think he knew any painters. But it was just his belief.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And so Mom Mom was a, a, was a more open reference. I, I could talk to
her about a lot of things --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and I tell everybody, Mom was so open and, and the first time I had
sex, I didn't tell my brothers, I told my Mother.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: So, that's how open she was.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: I could talk to her about anything. Now, she was going to maintain Dad's
patronage of the family.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: She was going to maintain that. So you're not going to do anything to go
against that, but --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- if you can do it, I'll support you.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And that's, that's how she --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: But she encouraged me after the talk from Miss Tucker, she encouraged me
to do a lot of things --HENDERSON: I see.
LIMES: -- to explore.
02:30:00HENDERSON: So do, so that talk with Miss Tucker, Miss Tucker coming in the way
she did was really a turning point in the hous -- in the house --LIMES: Yeah. Mm hm.
HENDERSON: -- like what she encouraged you to do.
LIMES: And what she saw was possible.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Because prior to that, she had not explored all those avenues with her
other kids --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and it wasn't until myself, then of course, Terrell, T.J., Veronica
and Sonia, it wasn't until Miss Tucker that she realized that New York City had a lot to give to kids.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: You know?
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: I guess she was used to that -- Because I know Rocky and Sadie started
school in the South. Maybe she was used to that.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: Maybe she was used to that restrictiveness.
HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: You know. And, and so -- I started school -- Let me see. I was born in
'45. I probably started school in '51, maybe around six or something.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
02:31:00LIMES: Fifty-one was not a good time for Blacks in school.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: You know, we hadn't had a lot of the, the boycotts. We hadn't had a lot
of the other things.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: So uh you know, it -- So, I, I guess she didn't see the ability -- Well,
she saw it more than Dad did, I think.HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: She saw some of her own siblings doing well. Mom did well in school.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Um, she was the valedictorian who never was. She was scored the highest,
but they gave it to a boy, which was their tradition in that school.HENDERSON: Oh, so they did it because of tradition's sake.
LIMES: Yes. So she was the salutatorian.
HENDERSON: Were -- Hold on. Miles! Stop.
LIMES: Stop.
HENDERSON: Were girls always the salutatorians --
LIMES: No.
HENDERSON: -- do you know?
LIMES: No.
HENDERSON: Oh, okay. It was just --
02:32:00LIMES: Because Momma, Mom's mother was her school's valedictorian.
HENDERSON: Oh, okay.
LIMES: But it was just that principal and that year that they said they wanted
that young man --HENDERSON: Hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: -- to be -- And I think he had prominent folks.
HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right. Right.
LIMES: So -- And, and I don't know who it was. I don't know --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- who it was, but, uh, I know that she was totally disappointed, because
she did out-point and wasn't given the, the number one spot.HENDERSON: And she told you --
LIMES: Yes.
HENDERSON: -- this story. How -- Okay, and then you talk about her wanting to be
a, a doctor or a --LIMES: Yes, because they called her "the little professor."
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: She was a mathematical whiz.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Um, obviously as -- And she used to say Momma was.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: So, I didn't know Momma's performance in school, and Momma, I saw Momma
as the house, because I never knew Momma to work or doing anything else. Momma 02:33:00was always there for us as "grandma," um, but --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- obviously they were both gifted in mathematics. And she said because
she would help us, and she said she could've been a teacher. She would have loved -- You know, uh, Thedra, Theopia, Sister, all were teacher --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- so you had that in, in their background. Plus, two of the husbands
were teachers.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: So when you, when you look at that, you say, "I could have been that
also," or would've --HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: -- but someone in the family and I think it was someone working with Dr.
Till, wanted Mom to be a doctor, felt --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- that she would have made, because she had that, um, academic ability
to be a doctor --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and so, um -- I, and I don't know who it was, but they were, um I
guess disappointed, because she did -- elected to marry and start having kids 02:34:00right away, so --HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: You know. I don't know whether Rocky was an "Oops!" or whether Rocky was
planned, but she married young and started having kids young --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- and in '32 she had Rocky, '34 she had Sadie, you know, '37, Ferdie,
'39, uh, Vern -- And it really just -- And so every child, then pushed that dream further away.HENDERSON: Further -- Uh huh.
LIMES: But she always because of my gift in, in, uh, uh in mathematics, she
always had the same idealization for me --HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- was to go into medicine because she didn't --
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- and wanted me to.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: Dad wanted me to go (unintelligible) --
HENDERSON: Yeah, it's, it's interesting that ever -- that, that there -- You had
a very clear idea of what you wanted to do.LIMES: Mm hm.
HENDERSON: Dad had a very clear different idea of what you want to do. And Nana
had a very clear different idea from the both of you -- 02:35:00LIMES: Yes.
HENDERSON: -- of what they, of what she wanted you --
LIMES: Yeah. She wanted to see that doctor in the family. That's what she wanted
to see.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Uh if she could not do it, she felt I was very capable of becoming a physician.
HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: And so that was her, her dream. And I, I know that, you know, certain
things, um I did disappointed -- That's when I -- You know, it, it bothered me, it'd choked me up --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- we, you know, when I told you about my having to go to them and tell
them about the drugs --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and tell them what I was, I was selling drugs. I know that hurt.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: I know that it not only hurt, disappointed, but she was almost
broken-hearted, because I was leaving an academic environment which was conducive for me to elevate myself.HENDERSON: By leaving, by having to leave the school?
LIMES: Yeah. And she didn't know what the schools would be like in Dover or --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
02:36:00LIMES: Well, we didn't even know about Pittsburg at the time, but I was going to
Dover High. Dover High um was being integrated that year.HENDERSON: Um --
LIMES: That's another thing I -- Uh Dover High was all White.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And when I went there, Dickie Winder and Tony Powell and myself were the
three first males, and they were three females. There were six of us who went to integrate the school.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: So I had (laugh) -- It, it's funny, I look at my life. In junior high
school, I was part of a very small minority.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: In high school a very small minority. And then when I went to Dover High,
there were only six Blacks in the school.HENDERSON: Yeah.
LIMES: And why did I get into the school? Because of my academic grades in New York.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: When Vern took the tra -- transcript, I had already taken calculus,
college calculus, I had already taken a number of college level courses and they 02:37:00said, "Well, he can't go to --" I can't think of the name of the Black school -- But there was a Black school, there was a White high school in Dover. And so they put me in the White high school, because of the advanced, um, academic abilities.HENDERSON: Now, really quickly, what was it like integrating a school?
LIMES: For me, not a problem. For Dickie and Tony, a little bit of a problem.
But both of them came from very prominent families. Uh, Dickie Powell's dad was one of the top physicians there and Tony Powell, uh, Dickie Winder's dad. No. Dickie Winder's dad was a college professor at Dover and Tony Powell's dad was one of the top physicians there.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: So they came from prominent families. For me, because of the previous
02:38:00schools, I had gone to schools that were mostly White.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: I didn't feel any sense of imbalance.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: They had gone to schools that were all Black.
HENDERSON: Ohhh -- Mm hm.
LIMES: So, me coming from Brooklyn Tech -- there were sixty some odd out of six
thousand -- it was no big deal to me.HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: I wound up becoming the cla -- class president at Dover High.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: I came out number one academically, and I was the class president. They
accepted me because I accepted my role in the class.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: I didn't have to overcome the barrier of saying, I'm only one minority
out of this many, because I had been that in high school and junior high school.HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: And so I didn't feel any different.
HENDERSON: And so the White students and the White teachers never --
LIMES: Ex --
HENDERSON: -- gave you a hard time and it was fine?
LIMES: Once they saw my
performances -- I --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- was getting straight As. I came out of there with a four-point-oh.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
02:39:00LIMES: They saw the performances. I ran track.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: I played basketball and I, my personality was such that I know how to
deal with people.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And, so, they allowed me to be me, and that, more than anything else -- I
think the, the teacher population was most receptive of integration.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: I don't know whether that was normal, but they seemed to have a younger
teacher body in age than most other schools I've ever been in.HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: Most of the teachers seemed to have been in the twenty to forty range.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: They weren't many, you know, forty-year teachers or thirty-year teachers.
HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: They were mostly young people who seemed to, um, say it's time for this --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- and Dover is a military town.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
02:40:00LIMES: So I think their interaction -- there was a lot of Blacks around Dover
because of the military base.HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: Um, I think they thought, you know -- And they sent six qualified students.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: All of us were at the top academically --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- so, you know, if you're going to send the bumblehead who's going to
fight everybody everyday, then you're going to expect that.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: But, no, they sent people who were achievers --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and so -- And from what I've been told by Vern, all subsequent classes
were pretty much acc -- accepted that way.HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right. Right. And so how did, um -- because Nana must
have heard about your achievements at Dover and what you were doing, so when you talked to her about it, what was her reaction, what kind of things did --LIMES: Mom never she never gushed about anything.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
02:41:00LIMES: Now, I am told -- and I don't know -- that she gushed about me to others.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: But as far as our interaction --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- um, it was more of "What do you need? What do you want to do?" first,
and, "What do you need?"HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And she was going to do her best to get me to a point where -- Because
she had learned from Miss Tucker that you had to be proactive --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- and you had to do these things --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- and so when I was offered the chance to test for the Naval Academy,
she sent the money. Come home -- It was, the test was in New York. Come home and take the test. Now I know they probably didn't have the money, but she wanted me to test.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: When, when I did the test for Brooklyn Tech, she made sure -- She had,
um, it was either Ronald or T.J., uh, Ronald or, or Ferdie, someone went with 02:42:00me, because I had to go to Brooklyn. I didn't know nothing about Brooklyn.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Someone went with me -- The test was a three-hour test and I completed it
in maybe two and a half -- I don't know -- but --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- they stayed with me and brought me back home. So, from the time of
Miss Tucker, she made sure to at least allow me the opportunity to do things.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And it was the same thing. She always asked me what I needed and it was
always uh, you know, an open-ended type of thing.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: "What do you need," dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, "And I'll make sure that
you," you know -- Uh, when I went -- I needed a, a book bag for, for Brooklyn Tech. And she went to Sister and asked Sister, uh, could she borrow the money.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Now Sister was unmarried and she had been married, but she was unmarried
at the time and no kids. And Sister made good money, so -- 02:43:00HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- Sister gave her the money.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And when she found it was for academic for me, she didn't want it back.
HENDERSON: Um --
LIMES: You know? So, those are the things that, that, um impressed me about Mom.
Mom was more quiet with me than she was about me.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: You know, uh -- "You did good, son. You did good, son." That's what I
would hear.HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: You know, I'd bring home a report card and every box had an A or every
box had a hundred. We had numerical scores for most of my (unintelligible) --HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: And every box had a hundred, and something, it'd be a 97, she says,
"Well, what happened there?" (laughter) So, you know. And, and whatever it was, social studies or something else and -- But, um she learned from Miss Tucker, the value of promoting yourself.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
02:44:00LIMES: Uh, she had me take standardized tests.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: I was when I left sixth grade, I was at a college, second year, in
mathematics --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and at, uh, high school, it was a, they, they did it by month, so it
was twelve/eight and fourteen/two was my, my test grade and --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- I know she talked about those.
HENDERSON: Uh huh. And what, what grade was this?
LIMES: I was in sixth grade. That's when I was leaving sixth grade.
HENDERSON: And you test -- you scored at a --
LIMES: I scored in the twelfth grade for English --
HENDERSON: Twelfth grade, eight months --
LIMES: -- and -- Yeah.
HENDERSON: So, someone who was graduating high school.
LIMES: Yes.
HENDERSON: And then --
LIMES: And then for -- because I was taking calculus and I scored fourteen/two
for math.HENDERSON: So, a sophomore in college --
LIMES: That would have been --
HENDERSON: Okay. That's -- was like --
LIMES: Yeah.
HENDERSON: -- it doesn't go up to grade fourteen.
LIMES: Yeah. So --
HENDERSON: So -- Uh huh.
LIMES: That, that's where... Now, I know --
02:45:00HENDERSON: In sixth grade?
LIMES: Mm hm.
HENDERSON: I'm sorry, I keep on saying "sixth grade," because -- what?
LIMES: Sixth grade. Yeah.
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: Sixth grade. I was a mem -- I was a member of Mensa.
HENDERSON: In sixth grade?
LIMES: Yeah. Because of Miss Tucker.
HENDERSON: Because of that -- Because --
LIMES: Because of Miss Tucker.
HENDERSON: -- of her? Uh huh.
LIMES: Everything that happened in my life that got me juiced up and going --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: Now, Miss Glover gave me the foundation; Miss --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- Tucker showed Ma the way. It was almost like, uh, she opened some
doors --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and a light came though --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- because all the things I did I -- I, I went to National Honor Society,
those things was because Miss Tucker showed Ma that this is what you need to do.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: You need to promote -- She used to say, "this boy," and I hea -- and I
used to laugh because I, I felt she wasn't much older than me -- she probably was, but I --HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right.
LIMES: But she said, "You need to promote this boy, and you need to be his
advocate," you know, "You need to show people what he can do." 02:46:00HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And so Miss Tucker -- and I don't know whether she gave Mom the list or
she arranged with Mom, but I started taking tests, national standard tests --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and that's how I was scored on some of these --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And I guess it was impressive.
HENDERSON: It was extremely impressive, and I guess I'm just thinking why did
they -- This is going to be a dumb question, but why were you then in high school at all? Like it seems like you should have been doing more than skipping one grade.LIMES: Well, Mom -- and, and this is another thing of Dad, Dad didn't want me
going too far because he felt that I wasn't mature en -- I was very small in school --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- both in stature and in -- Not both, but in stature, size, height and weight.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
02:47:00LIMES: Uh I was probably the shortest kid, the shortest boy in my class, in most
of my classes.HENDERSON: Mm hm. Right.
LIMES: Dad didn't want me being among kids that were two, three, four years older.
HENDERSON: Ummm --
LIMES: There -- (sigh) I don't think he understood that you could stand
toe-to-toe or eye-to-eye academically, ever though you're not that physically, and so he thought that my immature frame meant that I couldn't handle the, the academic workload.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Yeah.
HENDERSON: Hm.
LIMES: I should not have -- I, I should not have stayed in -- And then I, I
think about my trepidation when I went to the seventh grade.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: I don't know how I would have done if I had gone to the ninth grade --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- I don't.
HENDERSON: Right.
02:48:00LIMES: (coughing) So, maybe that was the best thing for me.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: I don't think I have, I had -- I see some kids today that's skipping. I
don't think I had the maturity to do that.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And I don't know if I had the temperament to do that.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: So I think I would have been although competent, I think I would have
been intimidated.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And I think maybe that's what Dad saw --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- because maybe just me being me um -- But, no, I, I've always found
school to be easy and --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- that was the problem --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- you know. That's what got me into the drugs, that's what got me you
know -- People struggling and I'm doing my homework before I get home because I could --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- you know. So -- But, yeah, Mom they didn't know what to do with me and
02:49:00there weren't a lot of programs for Blacks.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And I'm not going to say it was just Black and White, but it was, because
there were a lot of gifted kids of both major ethnicities --HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- and a lot of the White kids we -- were helped. They were coached, they
were taught, they were mentored --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and we had none of that.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: I remember the kid who was second to me, and he tested for Tech, and
didn't make it the first year, and tested and got in -- Peter Moody (phonetic). Peter and I and, and one other kid, Eugene (unintelligible) could have been that core group in our school to be mentored.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: Three young Black men who were well gifted.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: We, we weren't. Had no idea that that, there was that academic world.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
02:50:00LIMES: And until Mom's eyes were opened --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- I'm sure that Ron, Vern Ferdie and maybe even -- well, Sadie and
Rocky, I, they, they did a lot of their early formal education in South Carolina.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: So I don't know whether they would have benefitted, but I'm sure that Ron
and Vern would --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- you know, been, been able to take advantage of a lot of that stuff in
New York.HENDERSON: Right. Had they known?
LIMES: Yes.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And I think that's the problem with most of academia is knowing where the
resources are --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- you know? You can qualify for anything, if you know how to get it --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- and we didn't.
HENDERSON: Hm.
LIMES: The only thing they taught us was lunch programs and free dental and
every kid in New York had to do that.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: But as far as progressing -- Now mom, once she found out, Mom was a, a, a
dog with a bone.HENDERSON: Right.
02:51:00LIMES: She was very pushy for me to do things.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: Now, when you talk about the accolades, no. I didn't get that face-to-face.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: She would always say, "Nice job. Nice job," but it wasn't gushy like -- I
know that she spoke to other people --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- to brag about your son or daughter or, you know. I know she did that
about us, but never to us.HENDERSON: And I think it's interesting when you use that phrase, "dog with a
bone," because I just really assumed that that was her attitude, like say for her own schooling, or for her own academic life in Georgetown, um, where she knew the system --LIMES: Mm hm.
HENDERSON: -- and she knew how it worked. Um and I think it's just interesting
that it, being in, um, Harlem for so long and not knowing that there were these 02:52:00opportunities that were available --LIMES: Yeah.
HENDERSON: -- um --
LIMES: Well, I, I, and I don't know what the basis -- I know that in, with her
own schooling, she had very severe limitations of what she could do --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and what school she could go to.
HENDERSON: Why is --
LIMES: Because at that time, the schools weren't integrated, so she knew she was
going to go down this path to this school and these are the colleges that you were eligible to go to.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Um in New York, you had such a broader range, but in New York, also,
Mom's health was very much, um, at risk. Uh, she was never supposed to have your Mom. She was told not to have your Mom and Sonia --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
02:53:00LIMES: -- that she would probably die.
HENDERSON: Oh, wow.
LIMES: So, she she had two -- oh -- (break in audio) she, she had two at-risk pregnancies.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: So I know her health wasn't the greatest --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- when, when she --
HENDERSON: When she pas -- When she had them.
LIMES: Yeah. Mm hm. So, and that was the time -- I'm eight years older than
Ronnie, twelve years older than Ronnie, no, eight years older than Ronnie so --HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- when she's having that, those pregnancies, I'm eight years old.
HENDERSON: Yeah.
LIMES: She is not that involved in the school system --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- as she should have been.
HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: Um, by the time I get to the sixth grade, and I don't know what age that
is -- what is that? Maybe twelve?HENDERSON: Uh, sixth grade. Yeah. Yeah.
LIMES: Okay.
HENDERSON: Twelve. Uh huh.
LIMES: Then, she's already had Veronica and Sonia and maybe better able to
02:54:00engage in, in school.HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: But I know when I'm in the third, fourth grade -- Now Ronald's at that
sixth grade level, Vern is at that -- So a lot of that stuff that she would have been involved with, she probably was too sick to even deal with.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And Sadie -- I'm not saying she understood or didn't understand, but she
probably was overwhelmed.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And I'm just speculating.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: But I know that mom was sick when she had Ronnie and Sonia and so there
was a period of bedridden and the whole nine yards. Well, you know, that's, that's when I was early eight but I probably was in the second grade third grade --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- um I think when I don't know whether it was Veronica or Sonia -- T.J.
was in kindergarten and we used to run home because we wanted to know when the 02:55:00baby is born. We, we didn't you know -- We were always expecting --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- the baby would be born. We would run home, uh, T.J., Terrell and I.
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: And we were stepping-stones. We were a grade, grade apart --
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- and so mom was always sick, mom was always laid up.
HENDERSON: Yeah.
LIMES: But, then, I guess by the time I got to sixth grade -- and maybe that's
why Miss Tucker had to come to the house. I don't know.HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: Because she did come to the house so -- Um, and that's not to uh excuse
the way anything that should have been done or could have been done --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- it's just to know that it wasn't done and it wasn't done for my older siblings.
HENDERSON: Right. Oh, and I was just thinking about kind of -- not just Harlem,
but New York City in comparison to Georgetown, that's a huge place...LIMES: Yes.
02:56:00HENDERSON: -- and so, like that's a -- Even though you have a clear
understanding of what's going on in Georgetown and what that system looks like, you transpose it onto New York, and it's sixty times bigger --LIMES: Yes.
HENDERSON: -- or some, or, you know, just, just --
LIMES: Mm hm.
HENDERSON: -- the, the range is much bigger.
LIMES: Yeah, and then, and then the, the programs, uh, are different. I don't
think Mom was ever exposed to a, um, academic program where you could skip schools or where there were any, uh, uh, specialty schools.HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: Uh, you know. The Seward Parks and the Central Commerce and all those
schools. And then you had that elevated tier, and then you had another tier above it were you had the four special schools and --HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: -- um, you know -- But Mom encouraged me like to take advanced
mathematics. Mom encouraged me.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: I said, "Well, Mom," you know, "I, none of my siblings have taken this."
02:57:00"Well, that's all right. We can work through it."HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And we did.
HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: You know? She was a proponent. Now, Dad was a proponent for reading. Dad
educated himself. Mom agreed. Dad had every -- excuse me.HENDERSON: Mm hm. (break in audio) Okay, so you were saying that Dad was a
proponent, proponent of reading.LIMES: Of reading.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Um, he -- And I don't know whether he was self-taught, but Dad read every
book or every magazine he could get his hands on.HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: He was -- And, and I'm going to say a "hoarder." Under his bed he had
Ebony, he had, um, Jet, Life, Look. He had every periodical, the big --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- magazines that came out --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and he read them from cover-to-cover.
HENDERSON: Hm.
LIMES: And then he would leave them for us to read and Mom would tell -- Because
02:58:00they were the T.V. stations of that era.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: You got a lot of your non-local news out of magazines.
HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: Life and Look were weekly, and you'd learn about what was happening in
the United States, what was happening around the world.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And he read. And so his love or thirst for reading I think it's crept
into our life. And --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: because he always had a book or a magazine with him. Uh, so we did. And,
and Mom encouraged that, you know.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: She wanted us to see all these books. She didn't like the Playboys under
Ferdie's bed but, you know --HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: -- other than that, she encouraged all the books --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and, and so I think that helped all of the kids in their academic life
by reading early and reading often.HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
02:59:00LIMES: And that was another thing that I saw in, in my family was everybody reading.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: You know, just like I saw everybody work and, everybody read and --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- and so I read.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And I read and read and read. And it wasn't a thing -- I don't care
whether the, the comic book or War and Peace, I was reading something all the time.HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: And I think that helped me academically --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- because my, my reading comprehension helped me in all the other ac --
academic endeavors.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: I could figure out what they wanted in science and in math and --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- and history and anyplace else.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And so it was a great, um a, a great base to build on.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And Dad was the one who was a proponent for that --
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- because he didn't have it as a child.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: And so his, his whole adult life was reading, reading, reading.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And Mom built on top on top of that. She --
HENDERSON: Right.
03:00:00LIMES: -- told us, you know, "If you don't understand what they're saying, you
can't figure out the problem."HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And that's, you know, that was, that was one of her phrases all the time.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: "If you don't understand the words of what they're saying, you can't
figure it out."HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: So... You know -- So, unlike today where you have Google, uh, she kept
dictionaries and encycl -- Now that's one of the big sacrifices they made as a, and I think it was Mom, but, the family made. We always had up-to-date encyclopedias --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- always.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And she encouraged us to read, read, read.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And, you know, okay, you know. But if, if you didn't know the word, you
were to go -- "Don't ask Ferdie. Don't ask Ronald. Go look it up."HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And then memorize that word and recite it, or, or write it or whatever
you have to do, you had to know that word.HENDERSON: Right.
03:01:00LIMES: And so uh, that was one of the things I passed on when I had kids.
Anthony and Danielle and Dan -- subseq -- subsequently, uh, Tinisha and Bebe had to read the newspaper, one article, every Sunday --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and write me or tell me what it meant.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And I emphasized reading comprehension --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- and mom did that to us.
HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: We had to tell her what it meant. "No, don't just tell me you know what
it means. All right. Explain it. Now if you can explain it, that means you know it."HENDERSON: Right. So this is when you had a question and looked something up or --
LIMES: Anytime.
HENDERSON: -- if you just -- Anything?
LIMES: Yeah.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: If you couldn't explain it -- Like she'd ask me sometimes if I'm doing an
assignment what it is, and I'll say, "Oh, I'm doing, um, uh, uh Pythagorean's 03:02:00Theorem," and she'll say, "Well, what does that mean?"HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And now I have to explain it to her so she could understand it, and --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- whether she knew it or not, and she did, if I couldn't explain it,
then I didn't really know it.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And she'd ask me that about the, the, the temperature of water or the,
the -- Whatever it was, she made me know that I had to know enough to explain it.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And how you going to teach it to somebody else --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- if you don't -- So I learned things more in depth that way rather than
trying to memorize things for answers on a test.HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right.
LIMES: I ac -- And I think that helped me, because I actually had to learn the subject.
HENDERSON: Right. And like what, what's the first, or the earliest age that you
can remember, approximately, that she said something like, like you had to explain it?LIMES: Probably Miss McCarthy's class, first grade. Miss McCarthy was a
vocabulary nut.HENDERSON: (laughter)
03:03:00LIMES: Now, she was my first grade teacher.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: She was a handwriting nut and a vocabulary nut.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: And Miss McCarthy, um I think her background was English, but I'm not
sure. It could have been Education or some other discipline --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- but she made sure that we knew vocabulary words, and we had to have
eight words -- and it wasn't a, a I call them the, the, the "kindergarten words." It was a, a vocabulary where every day we had to, and then we have to do the sentence.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: And mom would do the same thing. "Well, what does that mean?" and, "Can
you use it in ano -- " Now, not just the sentence I used. (laugh) She wants it in another sentence.HENDERSON: Uh huh. Uh huh.
LIMES: But because she was home, she was able to engage us in those types of things.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: "Well, what are you doing?" and she didn't have to be next to me. She'd
say it from across the room, "What are you doing?" "I'm doing vocabulary." "Well, you have to write it, what, how many times?" "Um, I have to write it ten 03:04:00times." You know, you have to put the -- And then she'd say, "Well, did you write a sentence?" and I'd tell her the sentence. "Well, give me another sentence." Man!HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: "I don't want to make up another sentence," (laughter) but --
HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: -- I had to know the word in order to now give her another sentence.
HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: So -- Because the first sentence is usually something that was easy, you
know? (laughter)HENDERSON: Right. (laughter)
LIMES: The word is "brown" and "The house is brown."
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: Yeah. (laughter) You know. "He left brown stains on the carpet."
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: You know, I had to do something totally different.
HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: So and, and, and it was challenging but I knew that by doing the things
she (unintelligible) and she was demanding. (bird screaming in background)HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: But anyway, knowing that I could do what she asked convinced me that I
03:05:00knew the work better than just on a surface level.HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
LIMES: And that became important.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: I had to know the words inside out, and know, had to know how to spell I
had to use them correctly --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- and I had to use them in multiple ways.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: So, if it were used as a adjective and a noun or you, I had to do that.
HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right. Right.
LIMES: So it, it would be just start playing on things.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Ooh, maybe she was digging deep, because I don't know. It just was
annoying me, because she was making me do extra work. (laughter)HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: But then the work became a challenge, it became a, almost like a game --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- and I would think of, "Oh, well, I know she's going to ask, so let me
-- " and I think of things that --HENDERSON: (laughter) Of the sentences.
LIMES: -- (unintelligible) -- (laughter) So, it -- But she was the -- I'm going
to call her a "facilitator." She allowed me to explore, to, to, to use my brain, 03:06:00to do things. She didn't ever discourage me, but, like I said, we didn't get that uplift of encouragement.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: Um she, we knew she was pleased --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- but we didn't see it. But we heard it --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- and when I say "heard it," other people were pleased and we knew that
had to come from one source.HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right. Right.
LIMES: (laughter) "I heard you did well in school today!" "Well, who told you?
Yeah, I know who told you that."HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: You know? Or, "Congratulations on scoring a hundred," well -- you know.
Or when I made Honor Society, other people told me, you know --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- "Congratulations," well, okay, I know who, who said that.
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: And it could only -- And not that it couldn't come from the siblings, but --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
LIMES: -- the people I was getting it from, it had to come from Mom.
HENDERSON: Yeah. Uh huh.
LIMES: You know?
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: But now she never gushed about it to me --
HENDERSON: Yeah.
LIMES: -- and I think she gushed externally.
HENDERSON: Mm hm. About it --
LIMES: Yeah.
HENDERSON: Uh huh. Uh huh.
03:07:00LIMES: And she'd push me ... You know, I have a very close cousin -- we were
close -- uh, Enza --HENDERSON: Okay, so we'll finish this and then I'll let you take a break. So, so
Enza you said, had two teachers.LIMES: Right. She had two teachers, so --
(interruption)
LIMES: Um, she had two teachers, so --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- they were always they found out where I was in school, because Enza
and I are the same age --HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- and because Dad is this dropout --
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- and Mom just finished the twelfth grade, and they're college graduates
and one's a PhD --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- they felt that their daughter should never be behind me in --
HENDERSON: Ohhh -- .
LIMES: -- school. So Mom had a -- now this is when I know Mom was, she used to
call them or write them or whatever they did and tell them, "Oh, Perry just 03:08:00finished advanced algebra. Our Perry just -- " and the next thing you know Enza was taking advanced algebra.HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: It was, it became almost like a game --
HENDERSON: What -- Where?
LIMES: She was in South Carolina.
HENDERSON: She was in South Car -- (laughter)
LIMES: But they would put her in programs because he was teaching at the college
level --HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- and she was teaching at the high school level --
HENDERSON: Uh huh. Uh huh.
LIMES: They would put her in programs, or tutor her, so that she could be where
I was.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: When I started taking calculus, um Ed told Mom, "It's not possible for
him to know that much."HENDERSON: Oh!
LIMES: So, then it became even more of a challenge for her --
HENDERSON: (laugher)
LIMES: -- to show them that, yes, her son could do --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- as much as her college educated siblings' --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
03:09:00LIMES: -- daughter could do, and do it better. When I made, when I made National
Honors, I know she sent my certificate South.HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: (laughter) So Mom had that little devilish streak in her.
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: Um it was like a thing of saying, "Yeah, you brag all the time, but my
son can do just as well as your daughter."HENDERSON: But you, but you never felt -- You know how there are those like
stage moms or like parents who really push their kids in sports to --LIMES: Oh, no!HENDERSON: So you never felt pushed?
LIMES: I -- All, all the things I did were from my teachers.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: The results were transmitted to Mom.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: She then dug the knife a little deeper --
HENDERSON: Right. (laughter)
LIMES: -- because I would do certain programs and, and the teachers would say,
"Well, do you want to learn this?" and I'd go, "Yes."HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And I was stud -- studying trig -- When I went to, to the seventh grade I
03:10:00had trig already. I had two uh, courses in algebra.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: I was tak -- taking math that they don't get until the latter years of
high school.HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right. Right.
LIMES: And, because my, I had Miss Tucker --
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- who allowed me to go into certain programs and take certain tests.
HENDERSON: Wow.
LIMES: And so that lady was the blessing of all blessings --
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- because she even said, "He can do it. We're going to let him do
it."HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And that's -- Now, uh, I'll tell you the year before, Mister Pella
(phonetic) right? I don't know where, I remember the names from, but Mister Pella (phonetic) was a science major, he was a chemistry major.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And he's the one that got me interested in science.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Just like Miss Tucker got me interested in the generalities of, of --
HENDERSON: Right.
03:11:00LIMES: -- education. Hers was more English and math oriented. He got me
interested in physics and chemistry.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And so you have these breakthrough things, and you go "Wow. I didn't know
that this did that." And it was only because he took the time to show it.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: You know. She took the time to, to Miss Tucker did, took the time to get
interested in me as a person and my family that she had to run to Mom's house.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: because she saw something --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- and so --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: Um, and Mom allowed her to guide me almost. "This is your mentor. You're
going to follow her, and I'll just applaud the results that --HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: -- come from," and she did.
HENDERSON: Hm.
LIMES: Because I didn't -- Mom didn't tell me to apply for Mensa.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: Miss Tucker did.
HENDERSON: Ahhh --
LIMES: Mom didn't -- There are lot of things -- that's why I say, Miss Tucker
kept pushing me as far as I could go.HENDERSON: Right.
03:12:00LIMES: Um, Mom is the one who was the recipient of the good news.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And so we never had the, "Oh, you did so great!" or -- We didn't have
that conversation, you know --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: She, hers was more of, "I see you did well." Yeah --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm. (laughter)
LIMES: -- I did well, you know. And then, most of the time, it was better than
well --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- but, "I see you did well."
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And she had that calming gra --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: She -- If you hear Verna talk, it's like Mom's voice. Sadie is more
staccato and rapid and louder, but Verna and Mom have that quiet demeanor.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: They let you know you're okay --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- without shouting --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and that's what Mom did.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: She let me know I was doing well --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- but she didn't shout it at me.
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: And, but she shouted it at --
HENDERSON: At other peop -- (laughter)
LIMES: -- yeah, at other people. And I, and I'm told that, that a lot of people
were proud of me, but you know, it, it's like -- When I came out in, in the Air 03:13:00Force, um I sent her a clipping from academic training, okay. I didn't know that she showed it around.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: I just wanted her to know I graduated and I was at the top of my class.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: Well I come home and everybody knew --
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: -- so --
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: Um, can I say Mom was proud? Yeah, I can.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Can I say Mom showed me that pride. Ehhh -- Other than the smiles, no.
HENDERSON: Why do you think she didn't?
LIMES: Oh. She told me she never wanted my head get too big.
(laughter)
LIMES: She said, "Don't get too big on yourself." And she said that more than
once, because I'd say, "Look! I got straight As," dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: And, you know -- And she never wanted me -- Um, she tried, and she did
sometimes, but she tried not to compare her kids.HENDERSON: Yeah.
03:14:00LIMES: And so because -- She felt it was, ah, at times, unfair that Verna and I
-- because she always compared me with Verna -- had such a gift academically. And some of my other siblings did not, and struggled in school --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and she didn't want -- Like I was so close with Ronald and Terrell and
T.J. and now, if you're up here, and they're not --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- then --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- you know, how do you brag about one child --
HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: -- in front of the other children.
HENDERSON: Right. Right. And so she just didn't --
LIMES: Right.
HENDERSON: -- to, to you guys?
LIMES: To, to us. Yeah.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And she did it to people that she felt wouldn't swell our heads, also.
HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: Because unbeknownst to them -- and I've told them since -- I was jealous
of Ronald, because of his basketball --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- abilities.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: I was jealous of T.J., because of his baseball ability.
HENDERSON: Right.
03:15:00LIMES: I was a small kid.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: I couldn't do the things they did --
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- so, yeah, we all had our talents. Mine might have been the academic part.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: Theirs were, they were gifted athletes --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- and I wasn't.
HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: You know, I ran track but that -- You know --
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- as far as the skill games.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: Mine was just nature.
HENDERSON: (laugh)
LIMES: My feet were fast.
(laughter)
LIMES: You know? But they had skills --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and I was jealous of that, you know?
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: Not jealous to the point where I, you know, I'm green with envy, but
jealous that they were able to achieve that level that --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Ronald should have been playing in the NBA or pre -- at least, because he
got his, um -- He was getting a ride to either St. Johns or Columbia for basketball.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: You know, which was a big thing.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: But, uh, he, like many of us, um he fell in love and got married, um you
03:16:00know, had a shotgun out there and (laughter) and that derailed certain --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- aspirations, so --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: But, you know, Ronald was, was good academically. I don't know if he was
gifted academically.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: He was a, a struggler, but a striver.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Uh, Vern was a gifted academic, you know, and I think I had that.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: I think T.J. had that, but T.J. also had the athletic side --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and so -- T.J. and I talk a lot now about Mom and -- And T.J. says and
I, I tell him, we can't relive our lives. He says, "Do you know -- You -- I think we let Mom down, by -- all of us -- not going to college right away."HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: And some of us went after, but all of us didn't go right away.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and, yet, she gave us the tools to go.
03:17:00HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: He went in the military, Ronald got married, I went in the military,
Ferdie went in the military, Vern got married, Sadie got married -- You know, and you start going, you're going, damn --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- none of us said, we just going to go from high school to --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- college.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: And none of us did that.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: You know?
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: So, you look around and you go, you know, we, did we have the ability to
go? Yeah. Did we have the ability to go to an advanced degree? Some of us did.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Did we do enough? And so that's T.J.'s lament is that we didn't do what
we could have done --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- for whatever reason, we didn't, you know.
HENDERSON: Yeah.
LIMES: And I, I, I tell them all the time, I can't live in the past.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: I can't live over spilled milk.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: I said -- Because of where I've been in life, had I gotten that academic
03:18:00degree and that commission, I would have been flying jets. How many people got shot down over Vietnam?HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: Would I be here?
HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: I don't know. So, I can't go back and live that.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: I can only say, yeah, there's certain regrets I have, but as far as life,
the, the overall bubble --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- I don't have any regrets.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: I'm happy where I'm at today, and I'm happy to be alive today.
HENDERSON: Yeah. (laughter)
LIMES: (laughter) Um, I could have been the, the young man that got killed.
HENDERSON: Yeah.
LIMES: They could have gotten me, first, and not, not --
HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right.
LIMES: -- him.
HENDERSON: Yeah.
LIMES: You know? I'm fortunate.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: I'm sorry he died but I'm fortunate I had parents I that I could run to,
and who would get me out of there. I had a sister who was in Delaware, you know?HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: Husband in the military.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: If I didn't have that, where would you go?
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
03:19:00LIMES: So all those things make up our life --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and that's just what life is.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: So, you know? So I'm happy.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: But, um -- Yeah, Mom, Mom, she, she wanted the, the, the doctor, the M.D.
-- not the PhD -- she wanted an M.D -- .HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and she wanted me to be whole in the sense of achieving what I could,
and would.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: You know? She didn't want to force me because --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- she always told me, "Yeah, you know -- " Um, who was it? "Your uncle,
he'd help you in med school, financially." Well, that's not where my head was.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: You know? And I say that to my kids today. Danielle was going to med
school. She went, when she went to U.V.A., she was going to med school.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
03:20:00LIMES: She was pre-med. And she determined that that wasn't where she wanted to finish.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: She's happy. She's happy where she's at.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: You know? Would I have said, "Ooh, I wanted a doctor?" Yeah.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: You know, or would I have said, "Ooh, I want a real doctor?"
(laughter)
LIMES: You know. You, you have those, those moments when you say that --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- but you also know that that person has to live that life --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- and so, yeah. And when we, when I told you the other day how much we
applaud your efforts, your struggles, your achievements --HENDERSON: Um.
LIMES: -- it's, it's right along the line, you know?
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: We want you to be the best you are --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and that's where you going.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Now, Mom, I'm sure, wanted me to be the best I could be.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Now, she was happy along the way, even when I made mistakes. She was
happy when I did well in the military schools. She was happy about those things. 03:21:00She was happy about those achievement -- It may have not been the same achievement as getting the M -- you know, uh, uh, uh, bachelor's and an M.D., but it, it was achievements nonetheless.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: She was happy when I became a cop.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: because I finished at the top of that academic class. She was happy.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Now, I didn't get the overall top medal, because I didn't score high
enough in the physical --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- so the average, you had the academic, the physical and the firearms.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: I did really well in the academic and the firearms, but not as well in
the physical. There were people who did more.HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Right.
LIMES: So, I was third in my class --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- as far as overall average, but I was top academically.
HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right.
LIMES: But, um (cough) she was happy.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: She was tickled pink when I could show her those things.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And you could tell -- You know, again, you still don't get the, that
03:22:00effusive ah, abundance of joy --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- but you'd get the, "Job well done."
HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: You know? You'd get the "Job well done," (unintelligible) and that you
can see on someone's face.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: So --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: I think all in all, she -- I think, all in all, she would have been happy
with where --HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- you know, I finished.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And she was happy about life.
HENDERSON: Yeah.
LIMES: You know, she was happy about -- Because she saw me trying to do things
for my kids that she was trying to do for me.HENDERSON: Yeah.
LIMES: I think that made her happy is that I still had an, an emphasis on
education, um, albeit, not with the struggles she had. Uh, she had the financial struggles. She had the, the struggle of sexism and racism.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: I didn't have that. And even, she worried about me going to Dover,
03:23:00knowing that we were going to integrate the school.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: She worried about those things --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and she talked about it. She talked about my values and life and God
and, and that I'll be all right. So, those are the things that did not--(interruption)
LIMES: Um, those are the things that, that I thought about --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- you know. And, um, so I, I just know that she would be happy.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: because we tried to do the same things to our kids that she had tried to do.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: Yeah.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: And I know your mom was the same way.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: You know? She took the values from Nana and passed them to you in that
she allowed you to make those choices but encouraged you to do your best.HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: And so that's what I've done with Anthony, Danielle, Tinisha and Bebe.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Encouraged them to stay in school. Now, they've made decisions, and some
03:24:00are paying for it now, uh, by having to go to school with kids.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: It's harder.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: Much harder.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: But, you know, that's life, too.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: I mean I had, I went back to school with kids. Aurea and I both went back
to school. It's like, "Okay. I gotta," you know, "bite the old nail and, and just go back."HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: And so, um, Mom, I think would have wanted me to go straight through, but
she saw other successes along with way --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and you don't always equate that to the academic (unintelligible).
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: But I know what she went through in school, and what I went through in
school is different from what you're going through in school, what your kids will go through in school.HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right. Right. Right.
LIMES: You know? (Unintelligible) you know (unintelligible) --
HENDERSON: Yeah.
LIMES: So -- Your Nana was a good lady.
HENDERSON: (laughter) Well, we're going to pause here --
LIMES: Okay.
HENDERSON: -- and then probably pick back up later -- (break in audio) if you --
03:25:00I'll trans -- uh, transcribe what (unintelligible) --LIMES: Oh, boy.
HENDERSON: Okay, so, the, uh -- Switching gears again, I think -- It, it wasn't
today, but I feel like at some other point you had told me -- and you pretty much said today -- that Nana was your best friend.LIMES: Mm hmm.
HENDERSON: So I wondered if you could just talk a little about her, just as a
person, what you knew of -- this is very general -- what you knew of her --LIMES: Um, Mom being the second oldest of her ten, um, her, her parents had ten
kids, was also a nurturer. She was the provider of, of support for the family when, when, uh Momma was doing things with the kids, Mom, being the second 03:26:00oldest was one who stayed to help. Genevieve moved out of the household early.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And Genevieve was not the cook, babysitter type of person. She was more,
um, into the adventures of life, and I don't know how to put that any other way. She was more, uh out of the house type and --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- so she married this wild and reckless sailor who's going around the
world, and that's the life she envisioned her -- herself having --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- so she didn't, she wasn't a homebody. She didn't learn to cook like
the other ladies. Um, like I said, there were six girls. Well, all of them cooked except for Genevieve.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And she was the oldest of, of the ten. So Mom stepped into that role of
being Momma's assistant.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
03:27:00LIMES: Um, she cooked extremely well. She, uh did household and chores and --
And, like I said before, she never worked outside of the house, so she never went to that nine to five job.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: She had five kids in, in South Carolina, and when Ronald was a year old,
they moved to New York, and then she had me and four others.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: So it was five and five. Um (throat-clearing) I think Mom was a, a, a, uh
-- I, I don't want to say "an enabler," but I don't know of another term because Daddy (sigh) um, was one of those Southern gentlemen, who had a hankering for the skirt as they say.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And Mom knew it, but never uh never protested in that sense. The only
thing that made Mom angry was when Dad went out and spent money that should have 03:28:00stayed in the household. He could out and drink and he'd go out and carouse, but if, if it took the money from the household, then she was angry.HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Now that's an interesting thing, just from knowing Nana as a
granddaughter, I would just imagine that kind of anything going on, if she didn't like it like she'd protest about all of it, not just the money part of it.LIMES: Mm hmm. I think the money and raising her kids was the thing foremost in
her mind.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Now, what Jerro did, uh, uh, his name was James Jero what he did as far
as women or drinking, she didn't feel that she necessarily had to control that.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: He was a hard-worker, and he was a goo -- good provider, but toward that
I guess midpoint in their lives, when they transitioned from South Carolina to 03:29:00New York, he ran into a lot of people in New York who were Georgetonians, who had that New York hustle in them.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Him still being the country boy, because he was fresh out of South
Carolina --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- tried to keep up with that and, therefore, wasn't as attentive to home
as he should have been or could have been.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And so Mom, Mom dealt with it. I don't know why or how, but she dealt
with it. And we suspected, and Dad had come home with, you know, the lipstick on the collar and other things --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- but it was the money that was the -- The fights always seemed to be
about money.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And, as I said, we didn't have much, so if you spent the little we had,
then we really had nothing.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And so that was her anger, that was the thing that pushed her buttons.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: She was very mild, but could be very feisty. She was the type that, uh,
03:30:00if you imagine a, a Chihuahua and a bulldog, the Chihuahua is running behind the bulldog, "Yap, yap, yap, yap, yap," well, and that would have been Mom.HENDERSON: Mm hmm. (laughter)
LIMES: That was Mom. She was, uh that mouth never stopped --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and, you know -- Dad would always say -- and, especially if he had
been out and imbibed a little bit too much, um, "Mina, just let me sleep. We'll talk when I sleep." She -- He says, "You're giving me a headache, and I can't sleep, and I'm drunk. Just let me sleep."HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: And he would say it like that, and she was still going, "Yap, yap, yap,
yap, yap -- " and that's when the fight would start.(laughter)
LIMES: So, I say it humorously now, but a great portion of our lives -- and I'm
talking about myself and probably all our sib -- siblings except for Veronica and Sonia, and I don't know how much they could have got of it, because Dad had settled some. Every weekend there was a fight. Every Monday, I was glad Monday 03:31:00came so I could go to school, because that was my refuge --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- from the turmoil of Friday to Sunday.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Sometimes Dad would go out on Friday, and he'd be back Friday night, or
sometime he's back like Sat -- Saturday morning, or sometimes he'd be back Sunday morning.HENDERSON: Ohhh --
LIMES: And she he'd go and lay down, and she'd go through his pockets to see
what's money, how much money was left --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and that's when the fight started. So we as kids lived on edge every
weekend wondering when the combat was going to happen. Now --HENDERSON: And it was -- And it just happened -- I'm going to turn this around.
And it just happened, because Friday was payday --LIMES: Yes.
HENDERSON: -- every week?
LIMES: Yes.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: There were very few weeks that we didn't have the combat, and it's
usually if Daddy didn't feel good, he didn't go out.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: But most Friday nights, he was going out and he had the audacity to come
03:32:00home, take a bath, put on a white shirt and tie, and go out and that was his thing. He was going out. Sometimes, he would take Ma dancing -- those rare instances -- and they came back and everything was cool. But most times, he was going up to that club, wherever they went, and, the -- he was coming back and they were going to fight.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And we lived, I know the kids from T.J. through Ronald --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- lived with knots in our stomach for a long period of time.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And Rocky, poor Rocky used to be, he, the oldest boy had to get in the
middle of their fights -- and some were physical.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And so there was always that thing. Now, police had been out to our house
many times, and a lot of times, we, as children, had to convince Dad to leave the house, take a walk, go with -- His sister, Sadie, on, the, the oldest, lived 03:33:00in the next building from us. Sometimes we'd ask him to go over there and just sleep it off --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and so that was a big part of you know, even though she was sick, Mom
never backed down from anything, for anyone --HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and especially her husband. Now, like you said, the curious part is
why she didn't protest the drinking and the other things.HENDERSON: Um.
LIMES: We nev -- never knew why.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And I don't know if that was expected. Uh, I do know that her Dad was a
womanizer and he fostered kids outside, or he fathered kids outside of the marriage. Uncle Priestly was one.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And I think there are two others.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: So I don't know if she grew up expecting that's what the man or provider
was supposed to do.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: Um, we never got into that conversation, but I do know that she expected
her husband to bring home money for food for her kids. 03:34:00HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: You know. And so that, that, that was, uh Mom. Now she was very attentive
to us. She was a great listener.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And like I said, whatever I had to say to Mom, I could come home and tell
her. Not always agreeing with me, and she would correct me if I was wrong, and send me on the right path, or she would tell me stay true to what you're doing.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: But she always allowed me to voice my opinion --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- in whatever. And when you said it's strange that nobody else said
they'd fought with Dad, I think I was the only one because I went to her and explained. I said, "Mom, I have a problem with what's happening (unintelligible) and Dad's controlling my life, and I don't want that."HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And we talked, and she said, uh, "How strongly do you feel because you
know this is going to be an issue to me and Dad?"HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
03:35:00LIMES: And it was. You know? Now, did we know that he would get sick and die, or
that I wouldn't get a chance to grow into a mature man and be able to apologize? I was a young kid who was high on my own testosterone --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and, you know, at that point, did -- didn't give a shit. I was a
young, hotshot GI and, you know, you can go do whatever you want to yourself --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and I'm going to live my life. Well, you know, God has a way of
softening those hard edges, because he kicked me in the butt when he took my Dad.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: So -- You know, when you don't have that chance, and I tell everybody, I
don't care what your relationship is with a parent or a sibling or a child, at some point one of you have got to say, "I'm sorry," and one of you, if there is love, has, has got to say, "I love you."HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
03:36:00LIMES: And I never did that, and he never did that, until you missed that part
of it. But Mom always, she was the one who would pick up the phone, uh "Perry? You know it's, uh, such-and-such's birthday. You know it's such-and-such's anniversary." Mom knew every birthday and anniversary for all kids -- and this is out of her head -- all the kids, all their spouses, all the grandkids, all the great grandkids and then she knew everybody's anniversary, and then she knew everybody's phone number and address, because I called up one day asking Mom, "I, I can't find my phone book. Do you have Ronald's number?" She says, uh, "Do you want -- " and, and, she says, she gave me a number and she says, "Oh, wait a minute. No, that's the old number. Lemme give you the new number," and she rattled that off, and I went, you know, "Something's wrong here."HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: I'm calling my mother for a number for my brother --
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
03:37:00LIMES: -- and she can tell me off the top of her head, and I can't find a phone
book to. (laugh) to --HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: -- to do it. And this is, this is the brilliance we used to find in her.
And she would always call each of us. "It's Kelly's birthday. You've gotta -- " you know, or, "Kelly's birthday is Monday. Did you send a card?"HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: You know, we didn't have the email and all the other things then, but it
was always, she was the mi -- reminder. Uh, she was the magnet, being that nurturer from down South and the oldest girl who we used to tease and say, "The oldest girl who everybody else liked," because people didn't like Genevieve, because they couldn't stand her husband.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: So Genevieve had an arrogance about her.
HENDERSON: And this, is this the one that cut off pieces of himself.
LIMES: Yeah, pieces of --
HENDERSON: Okay. (laughter)
LIMES: He had that, that -- We call it the, the Caribbean hustle, but he was so
03:38:00-- He was a fighter, a drinker. He used to bust people's heads open in bars and stuff like that. He was just a brute of a man but a damn good provider of money.HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: Don't say it was love, but money.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Um I mean Genevieve had everything and was arrogant to the rest -- She
would demean Mom when Mom would ask her for help.HENDERSON: Um.
LIMES: "Nobody tell you to have all those kids. Nobody -- " you know, that type
of thing. "Those kids are your responsibility, not mine. You had them all. You opened your legs -- " I mean it was really cutting, nasty --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- things. And we would hear this.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: She had no shame to say it in front of us, us kids.
HENDERSON: Oh, she would say that --
LIMES: Yeah.
HENDERSON: -- in front of y'all?
LIMES: Yeah. "You opened your legs and had all those kids. Nobody told you -- "
and Mom's now almost in tears because she doesn't want to say something back 03:39:00that would cause her not to get the help.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: But knowing that she wanted to bite this woman's head off --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- because you said that in front of her kids.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: So, it was a -- Mom had the patience of Job --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- you know, to deal with Dad, to deal with her sister, to deal with the
arrogance of some of the other sisters who -- And not just sisters. Well, the brothers were more more, um -- how can I say it? The brothers were more nurturance of her. They, they were the ones that -- The, the sisters were the youngest in the family. The brothers were the ones Mom had an immediate impact on when she, when she was helping Momma raise them.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: They became very close. Everybody rallied around Mom. You know. It was
her house we were going to for Thanksgiving or any other celebration. But, I'm 03:40:00saying, Genevieve wasn't right, and so Mom became the hub for the family North.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Anytime somebody came up from the South, they went to Mom's house and
bunked, rather than go to Gen -- Genevieve's house where they had room.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: So Mom's house was always full --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- not only with her own kids but with everybody else who came.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Uh and so you learned that, that if a, if a person can eat a slice of
bread, two people can eat a half a slice each, and that was the lesson that Mom taught me.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: If I just cut that bread in half, I could feed two people --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- maybe less, but I don't have to have one person eat a slice and one go hungry.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And so that's the Mother that I grew up seeing --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- you know, um -- Somebody come by the house, "Perry?" "Yes, Mom." I had
two pieces of chicken. "I, I need one of those pieces of chicken," and she would 03:41:00take the chicken from me and give it to the stranger or whoever and make another plate for that person.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: So Ronald, T.J., Verna, all of them learned to eat fast.
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: And me, like the -- nut that I was -- I was the one who didn't eat fast --
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: -- and I had to eat, I, I had this terrible habit of eating the starch
and then the vegetable and then the meat.HENDERSON: And then have the meat last?
LIMES: And, so, consequently, all of them ate their meat, and my meat was the
one that was taken off my (laughter) my plate -- If we had a pork chop, she'd cut the pork chop down the middle.HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: But Ronald and them ate their pork chop first (laughter) --
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- because they ate the meat first and, and left the vegetable and the
starch, you know --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- usually rice, for last. And, you know, you can take the rice. I had
03:42:00the pork chop. I had the string beans. You can take that rice.HENDERSON: And how long did it take you to learn --
LIMES: It didn't --
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: Never have. Never have. I mean we got to a point where we didn't have to
share as much, because there were less of us, and we were doing better --HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: -- especially Dad, Dad got a job with the, um transit authority. He
started out as a porter, cleaning the, the subway stations and toilets and everything else. And then got, uh, promoted to token booth, where he dispensed all the tokens and everything else.HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: Enjoyed the heck out of that. He had benefits. We had medical benefits
then, all the things we didn't have when, when he was a presser.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Um, we, he had steady income, steady money. It wasn't dependent on the
piece of clothing that -- He was getting a, the same paycheck every week, as long as he'd put in his forty hours. Um, then went to conductor. Now he did all 03:43:00this in the late stages of his life.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Um, Dad died at fifty-three. So probably, let's say from forty-five to
fifty-three is when he realized civil service was a better deal for him than --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- the, the pressing --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and so he, he did well during those years, but it was too short and
too few for us.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: We had a, an old man who was doing well but, by that time, whatever --
And we don't know whether it was cancer or something else. Whatever killed him was creeping up on him.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: You know. But Dad was a robust man.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And Mom was the feisty one. Mom, you know -- Uh, one thing I can tell
you, if you had a problem in school, there was Mom standing in some teacher's face or some counselor's face telling them, "You are going to make this right."HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
03:44:00LIMES: Whatever it was. I had, um -- and I didn't have fights in school with
kids. I had fights in school with my teachers, because I was too much of a smartass.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And so I had a nasty habit of correcting teachers. I do say it's a nasty
habit, because then you don't know how to do it diplomatically.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: You just say things.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And I would say -- and like I said, I was a (sigh) I consumed every --
you hush over there -- I consumed every magazine, uh, Look and Life and -- There was a wealth of knowledge on a multitude of subjects --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and I'd find out something about the solar system or about Bengal
tigers --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and the, the teacher would say something and I'd correct them. Then,
oh, Lord, you know. And I've, I've been suspended a number of times --HENDERSON: Oh, wow!
LIMES: -- until Mom went there. Uh, one time I was suspended
03:45:00for doing a math problem and the teacher told me, "You didn't do it right," and I said, "I did so do it. That's the answer." She says, "But you didn't show me the steps." I said, "I showed you the steps, but I don't do the steps like you do them."HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And she says, "Well, you're wrong," and she gave me a zero.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: I cried all the way home. The next morning, Mom was standing there. She
says, "I'm going to the board," and she went to the blackboard.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: "Now I'm going to show you the problem, and you show me how you do it,
and I'm going to show you how I taught him to do it."HENDERSON: Ohhh --
LIMES: She showed -- The, the steps she took, we took four steps to get to the
solution. The other pe -- the lady took either seven or eight steps. She said, "Now tell me that's wrong." She says, "It's not wrong, but it's not the way I taught it." "What's the purpose of math? For you to understand the concepts, understand the problems and get the right answers." 03:46:00HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And she made the lady apologize in the classroom to me, in front of my
peers. But the lad --HENDERSON: Oh, the kids were in there!
LIMES: Yeah, the lady humiliated me.
HENDERSON: Ohhh --
LIMES: "Your mother don't -- " I said, "This is the way my mother taught me."
"Your mother don't know what she's doing."HENDERSON: Ohhh --
LIMES: So those are the types of things.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: Now when Ma heard that, she -- Momma wasn't feeling well, but she got up,
got dressed and walked me to school and tell that lady, "We going to do this on the board together and you going to show me why my son is wrong." And she couldn't because Ma had showed me how she learned.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And they had put extra steps in this thing. I said, "I showed you all the
work I did, but mine is four steps and yours is nine."HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: You know, "We got the same answer," so -- Um, you know, that, that was
Mom. She wasn't -- She wasn't the loud one. She wasn't the, the lady that you hear cackling down the block. 03:47:00HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: She wasn't -- She was very quiet, but very determined to support us in
what we did --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and especially if we were right. Now she'd kick our butts if we were
wrong. Don't get me wrong. She was tough in that way, too. Mom was the one who spanked us. Daddy Daddy hit me one time and it was with a towel, you know, the, the dishwashing towel?HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: He was drying dishes. And I, like a fool, the, we had some guests and the
sofas back then had the Queen Anne type of legs. And I crawled from the back and I was grabbing somebody's leg, the back of their leg --HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- from under the, the -- And he hit me, "pfew," with that on my ass and
it -- I went through the roof. I mean it, uh, it hurt. And he only hit -- that's the only time he hit me.HENDERSON: Oh. In your life?
LIMES: Mm hmm. Only time. Daddy didn't hit us.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
03:48:00LIMES: He hit Terrell one time and that wasn't a hit, he hit her in the
forehead, and she went back about seven or eight steps, turned around and ran.HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: She said something fresh to Ma.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: Um, whatever it was, we were going to school and Mom said something, she
said, "Well," you know, "I'm not going to -- " and Daddy jumped up and went (noise) and just tapped her, open-handed, and she, the, it must have stunned her, and probably hurt her --HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- so she backed up and ran all the way to the school.
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: Yeah. Uh, Ron, the same way. Ron said something and Daddy he, he was --
Mom was the authority in the house, but if you challenged that, you had to deal with a madman.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: He jumped up on Ron and she said, "You think you're an effing man? Fight me."
03:49:00HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Ron looked at him like, "Oh, no." This man, this man was he had hands
that were like steel vices.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: He grabbed a door one day -- Him and Mom -- This is, this is the where I
said Mom didn't --(phone interruption)
LIMES: They, they probably want to come back.
HENDERSON: I think that you were talking about Dad being massive --
LIMES: (Unintelligible) --
HENDERSON: Oh. Okay. So you were saying -- I, I remember massive hands --
LIMES: Oh, yeah, um, one of their -- We saw him, uh in one of their fights.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And Dad was a, was a pretty solid man.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: He probably ran around 220, 230, but he had hands that -- He grabbed the
top of the bathroom door and actually ripped the wood -- 03:50:00HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- by pulling and pushing, like you would a phone book or something --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: That's how strong he was. And we knew that if he ever grabbed Ma, he
could, he would really hurt her.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: But she would jump on him anyways, and you talk about the, the, the
feisty ferret?HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: That's who she was --
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: The feisty ferret. She wasn't going to let go.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And it didn't matter whether she was grabbing a gorilla, grizzly bear or
the Bengal tiger.HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: She was the feisty ferret. And so those instances in life you saw where
you knew she was outmatched, but wasn't letting go.HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: And so that's, that's, um uh -- You know, Mom was just one of tho -- And
the biggest sweetheart. You walked to her door, you were coming in, you had a glass of juice, milk, water, whatever. You had food if she had food if you were 03:51:00hungry. You had a place to lay your head.HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: She, I never saw her turn anybody away, ever. And so people ask me why
today I am so willing to open my door to --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- anyone. It's because I saw that. Again, by example, I saw her do these
things --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and she said, "I don't have a lot, but I have more than some and those
that don't have as much as me, need my help."HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: "Just like I need help from someone who has more than me."
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And that was her philosophy. You know, you don't have to have a lot to
stick, stick out your hand.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: So she always had her hand out.
HENDERSON: Yeah. Yeah.
LIMES: You know (unintelligible) --
HENDERSON: Helping?LIMES: Yeah. She was --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- always -- Um, when she had health, she served on various boards in a
church, the PTA, you know --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- things like that. She did give back.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
03:52:00LIMES: She allowed us, even with little money, to go to the Boy Scouts, to go to
the, the Boys Club, to participate in things, because she felt it was good for our character.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Uh she made sure that we went to the library constantly.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: We had to trek to the library and it was usually Ronald, always leading,
because we were so close in age, Ronald, me, T.J., Terrell, always leading us to the library and we would, we would be allowed to bring back eight books --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and we left with eight books a week.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: That's how much Ma had us read. Now, like I said, it could be a comic
book or it could be War and Peace. It was a book. You had to have something --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- that you were engaged in.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: We didn't have many days where you said, "I'm bored."
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: I never heard those (laughter) words, "I'm bored."
HENDERSON: Um. Mm hmm.
03:53:00LIMES: Um, if we weren't inside doing something, we were outside, um -- Mom
played cards, Mom drank a little bit. She never smoked, but, you know, she was, Mom was Mom. She liked to go out dancing with Dad when he would take her out, which wasn't often, but which was special treat.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And she loved writing cards - every holiday, every birthday, every
special day.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Father's Days, Mother's Days, um, whatever, you got a card in the mail.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And Mom had one of those -- and, and people tell me I, I, uh am similar
-- Mom ha -- Mom had one of those beautiful handwriting.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: She wrote uh, script in, in a way that was flawless --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and so you'd get these beautiful cards, and I treasured that from
Vietnam --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- when I was overseas.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And the greatest thing was, I, uh when Mom passed, Vern gave me some
03:54:00letters that I had written to Mom from Vietnam.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And, and when when I had written, right after I got back when Dad had
died, I went back over and I, Vern gave me the letters Mom had saved from Dad.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Um I've got a couple of plaques that I sent -- Mom kept everything that --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: If you gave her something, it was meaningful. I sent her a tee shirt in
1963 from Keesler Air Force Base and it had "Keesler Air Force Base," with the Air Force symbol on it.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: When she passed --
HENDERSON: A shirt --
LIMES: Yeah, Vern, Vern found this tee shirt, this, it's a sweatshirt -- and I
still have it in there --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.LIMES: -- from Keesler Air Force Base. I sent it to her from
my tech school.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: She had it folded in a little gift box when -- She had worn it once and
then folded it back up --HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- and she had it in a gift box.
03:55:00HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: And, so, it meant a lot to her.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: When I was in Vietnam, I sent her some plaques that -- we had gone over
to R&R to Thailand -- I sent her two plaques. I have them hanging on the wall now.HENDERSON: Is it the man and the woman?
LIMES: Mm hmm.
HENDERSON: I remember those. I remember those. Mm hmm.
LIMES: Yeah, and those were from Vietnam.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: So, little things like that, she (sigh) -- Mom was a treasurer of things
that made her feel important or good.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Um, one of the most precious things to her and, and, I guess she cried a
lot was Melvin, Sadie -- Sadie's husband, gave her this clock from Germany and it, in a big globe, but it was the type you wind up and it, uh --HENDERSON: Oh, yeah.
LIMES: (Unintelligible) --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: Well, T.J. and Keith who was like Mom's adopted son --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and our adopted brother, were horse playing and kicked it and broke it --
03:56:00HENDERSON: Ohhh --
LIMES: -- and she cried, she cried and she cried. It is -- That was the first
thing that Sadie and Melvin had given to her.HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: And so it was -- So, you know, you, you look at that part of Ma --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and she treasured whatever you gave her, cards, letters, gifts. It was
just -- And she was sentimental that way.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Now she didn't always have a lot to give back, but she always had a
birthday card or a Christmas or, you know, a Father's Day card.HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: And I know my kids used to look forward to it, because she would put a
one-dollar bill, until they got to a certain age, then she would put a five-dollar bill.HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: And it wasn't the money --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- it was that she sent them a card with that one dollar in it --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- or that five dollars --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- and it was unbelievable.
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: And this went on for a long time.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: I mean the kids were probably fifteen or sixteen and they were still
getting that little five dollars. 03:57:00(laughter)
LIMES: But I, I think it wasn't the money to them.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: It was that somebody thought of them --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- you know, and cared enough to write and send (unintelligible) --
HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right.
LIMES: That's the thoughtfulness of Mom. Now, have I seen her angry? Yeah, I've
seen her angry, but not out of hatred or spite or anything like that. I've seen her angry because you pissed her off --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- you did something wrong. But, just, you know how you see people walk
around with a angry face, I've never seen that from her.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Now, I've seen her hurt, you know, physically --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- feeling bad.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: I know she had pains from her, you know, um, when she had those attacks
with the, with the heart and we'd have to take her to the doctor or the hospital, I've seen that part of it --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- but the anger -- She was always glad to see her family. She was
especially glad -- and I don't know if the girls know, but her daughters meant the world to her.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
03:58:00LIMES: Even the angry one -- and I call Sadie "the angry one." Even the angry
one. Her daughters meant the world to her.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and she, it was just something about motherhood that she revered --
revered and that her daughters emulated because they all seemed to have the same passion and compassion about family and life that she had.HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: So you saw that in her when, when she would light up if Sadie or Vern or
Terrell or Ronnie or Sonia --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- call or you know, she would light up --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- because that was her girls.
HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: And the boys, you know, she was -- and I'm not saying she didn't show
affection, but she just lit up with the girls.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And it was that, that motherhood kinship I guess --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- and, and, I guess at the undefined, uh -- you can't put your thumb on
it --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- but you know it's there.
03:59:00HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right. Right.
LIMES: And, you know, especially when the girls started having kids and more
kids. You know, Sadie and Vern started out with a number of them.HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: Terrell didn't do so bad herself.
HENDERSON: Right. (laughter)
LIMES: So (laughter) you know. It got to, down to Ronnie and Sonia that had to
scale it back a little bit, but, uh --HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right.
LIMES: -- yeah, the, the other girls, they had some (unintelligible) parents.
(laughter)
LIMES: But I think she really liked that.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: But that's ma. Uh, Mom can uh, I guess I was hurt, I, I felt I
disappointed them the first time they caught me smoking.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Her and Dad were taking a walk. They would walk around the block, around
a couple of blocks. And one day I'm coming around the corner to my block, and they're going on their walk --HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and I had a cigarette. And those, those are two of the times that I
know that I felt like shit --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- in their presence because -- One was when I told them about the drugs,
04:00:00the other was that, that, that --HENDERSON: And what was their reaction when they saw you?
LIMES: Um, Dad laughed because of my clumsy attempt to hide.
(laughter)
LIMES: And Mom, all she said was, "I'll talk -- We'll talk later."
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: But Dad laughed, because I, you know --
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: You're trying to put it away, and I, I know you can't get the, the image
on, on tape. I was trying to put this thing away. I didn't, didn't know what to do with it, you know. And you got a whole cigarette and you're trying to hide it. And where you going to -- You can't put it in your pocket.HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: So you're doing everything in your power to, to try and hid this damn
thing. You know, they saw the big puff of smoke before --HENDERSON: (laughter) I know!
LIMES: -- they saw me. (laughter) So, it, it -- Those are the things that I
remember a lot about.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And, then, you know, Mom was the, the -- Unfortunately, she buried a lot
04:01:00of her siblings, and so you saw that tender side.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: But also that side of warmth and compassion to her siblings' kids.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: How much she took them in.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Uh, Norma Jean and Carmelita were grown women, but they, Mom became their
second mother.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Uh, Rett, my, my Dad's sister's daughter, Loretta, Mom, she, she called
Mom, "Mom" after Baby died.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: So you saw those things and you, you often wondered, why does everybody
gravitate to her?HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And then I, I, I used to think about this, because my kids would tell me
this sometimes. "Everybody likes to come around you."HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Well I don't ever remember Mom doing stuff that just push anybody away.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And so if you never alienate someone, anyone --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
04:02:00LIMES: -- then everybody's going to want to be around you.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And that's what I saw. You know, I saw that, like I said that -- I call
it love, because that's the central theme, and maybe it wasn't love for everybody, but it darn sure was compassion --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- you know. It darn sure was a caring for their well-being.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And so it drew everybody to her.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: You know? And uh, she was an amazing lady. Even when she came here um,
during her last days, she, we took her to the beach and she was laughing about the clowns.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Now one thing that I'll tell you that really struck us. Busch Gardens had
a Egy -- Egypt exhibit --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and they had the, you know, the Pharaoh and they had, uh, the Sphinx
and they had other things depicting Egypt --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and Mom, we took Mom to that. And I'm wheeling her in a wheelchair and
04:03:00Ferdie was with us. They came down to visit. So Aurea and I, Mom and Ferdie, and she said to us, "I finally got to see the things that I read about."HENDERSON: Hm.
LIMES: She was talking about the history books.
HENDERSON: Um. Mm hmm.
LIMES: Because you, you actually saw a depiction of, of, uh some of the the
buildings, some of the, the Parthenon, you saw, uh, pictures of the Sphinx, you saw pictures of -- They, they had done the ancient Greek and the ancient Roman and the ancient Egyptian, and it was a exhibit that showed the juxtaposition between the three cultures.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And she was now seeing things, or seeing a replica of the things, that
she had read about those many, many, many --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- years ago.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And she, she was smiling through the whole -- I mean she just was
freaking out. 04:04:00HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: Like, "What did, what did the Sphinx look like?" Well, Mom, this is not
the real one but the other one is, you know --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- two hundred times bigger than this. But it was a large Sphinx, so --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- it looked majestic --
HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right. Right.
LIMES: -- and she loved it. And, and we talked and she, she loved history.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: She said the one thing she wished she could have done was travel so that
she could have seen the Nile. Everybody talked about the Nile, this and that.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Ah, she wished she could have seen the Euphrates. She, she mixed Biblical
history with school history --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- for some of things where brought but where she would have gone had she
had the ability to go.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: So, it was, it was great historian.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And I had never talked history with her.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: I talked a lot on the other things with her --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- uh, but never history, and it wasn't until that time that the history
came up. 04:05:00HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And she said, "Yeah, I was a history buff."
HENDERSON: Oh.
LIMES: And I didn't know that.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: You know. Uh, we would talk dates with Dad because of his, his books. Um,
Look and Life magazine always showed things of either contemporary or recent past history.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Well, we never got into, you know, uh, uh Roman or Egyptian or -- We
never got into slavery. We never got into a lot of things.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And it wasn't until Mom was nearing her end -- we didn't know -- but it
wasn't 'til that time that we, um actually got to talk about those things.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And that was mid-90, '95, '96, somewhere around there --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and, uh, we, we started talking about history. And so she was a
history buff and I had never know in all those years.HENDERSON: That's interesting.
LIMES: I knew she was a math whiz -- as she said "the professor."
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
04:06:00LIMES: Um, I knew she liked English, because she darn sure liked to correct you.
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: (laughter) And, you know, uh -- Oh, cor -- correcting. The ruler on the
knuckles was one of the worst punishments she could give you.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Yeah, she was a handwriting -- I told you here handwriting was
(unintelligible) -- You'd start handwriting, you'd start doing some script, and if you didn't do it right, she'd give you a rap with a ruler across your knuckle.HENDERSON: Ahhh --
(laughter)
LIMES: So, but -- Was it hard? No. Was, was it enough to get your attention?
Yes. (laughter) So those are the things when, when you start talking about school --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: But always had enough utensils, pencils, pens, erasers.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: You, you had to go to school with everything. You're prepared, whatever
it was, and those are the sacrifices. I know sometimes she -- especially when I 04:07:00got to Brooklyn Tech, I had to have specialized, um, architectural drawing tools and they were a little more pricey --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- so when I wanted a good slide rule, I didn't know if many people know
what slide rules are, but I wanted a good one. It was pricey.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: It was, you know, not as much as a new calculator, but it was close, and
so they sacrificed to have these things for us.HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: And so I I was ever thankful that, um -- They never denied me anything
that had to do with school. So you may not, uh, you may not verbally say, "I got your back," but --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- but you show it with your actions.
HENDERSON: Yeah.
LIMES: And that's what, you know -- "Mom, this is what I have to have for
school." "Well, when do you have to have it?"HENDERSON: Um.
LIMES: And I know sometimes she borrowed (unintelligible) and I know sometimes
that it was embarrassing for her to have to borrow, especially from her sister, 04:08:00who was the arrogant one --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and from Dad's sister, who was -- She was another one who, you know,
because she didn't have kids and she wasn't married, really wasn't feeling it.HENDERSON: Right. (laughter)
LIMES: So, you know, her money was spent on trips.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Sister went -- Sadie Gaye -- went many places. She belonged to this
woman's travel club, and they went all over --HENDERSON: Ummm --
LIMES: -- and, you know, she'd come back and tell Mom where she had been. "We
went to Niagara Falls, we went to this place, we went to that place." Mom couldn't go anywhere.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: So, she lived vicariously through her kids at times -- Ferdie going to
Japan, uh, Sadie and them in Germany -- You know, she got to experience things through our tales and our --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: So --
HENDERSON: Hm.
LIMES: -- she, she loved that part of it, but --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- you would have, you would have -- And I guess the early Samenia you
04:09:00would have liked. She would have been there for you for your you know, your schooling (unintelligible) --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- nourishing --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Um, she could be funny at times.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: She had a good sense of humor and then she could be feisty at times, so --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- we had a woman who I think was well rounded.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Um had an ego, because she knew that she was good at certain things --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and you couldn't tell her different --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- you know. She knows that she, what she -- She'd always tell me, "I
didn't live out my dream. You need to live yours," and --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- that's what we were, had the deeper discussions.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Um, she said, "I made a choice. It was a choice that I would make again.
And I wanted to have my kids, my children, my, my "chilr'ns" as she would say. She didn't say "children" or, she would say "chilr'n." "And I wanted to have my 04:10:00chilr'n," and that's what she did, you know. Her and Daddy decided to have a family and it was a big family.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: I couldn't have been blessed to be in a better family --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- but I applaud them, I applaud her for taking care of us even in
sickness. And I know and how she, she was a woman of character in the church. She was a, a, a Eastern Star. She was a Georgetonian. So she served in a number of capacities --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: for different organizations.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Um, she was a secretary and then a treasurer for the church. Um, the
Georgetonians, she was a vice president and secretary and treasurer.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And the, the Eastern Star, I don't know where she got on the board, but I
know that that she was very proud of Sadie, when Sadie became the "worthy matron" for the chapter and all that.HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
04:11:00LIMES: So she loved that part of it, the camaraderie. And Ma had a wealth of
friends. Ma and Missus Wilson, Miss Hazel, uh, uh, Mavis -- you can go on and on, everybody's -- Limes, Lime -- everybody called her Limes --HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: -- or Mina (unintelligible) -- The Mi -- Mina was Daddy's name for her,
and so a lot of her friends adopted that. But Miss Wilson and some of the others in the building called her "Limes." "Limes?" Or when they wanted to piss her off, "Lee-mez." She'd say, "I'm no damn Puerto Rican!"(laughter)
LIMES: And she had a funny way of saying "Puerto Rican" so it was, it was, it's
one of those things.(laughter)
LIMES: Um, "Perry, Perry -- Is, is Teresa Porto Rican?" (laughter)
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: And you'd laugh because -- she didn't mean any harm but she (laughter) --
HENDERSON: (laughter) Mm hmm, humm.
LIMES: And she'd say, "I'm getting an international family here." You know. And
04:12:00so she was talking about all her daughter-in-laws and, and --HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- it was just you know -- She used to tell me, "You're going to marry a
Southern black girl," and Ronald was the only one of the boys who did.HENDERSON: Who did. (laughter)
LIMES: And so (laughter) --
(laughter)
LIMES: I remember when --
HENDERSON: That's funny, because I don't even think of Aunt Barbara as very Southern.
LIMES: Yeah! No. And --
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: -- that's, she's the only one with roots, and their, their roots are
South Carolina, also --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- but she's the only one. Uh, Ferdie's first girlfriend, or Noelle was,
was a high school and then post high school, but Mika was from Japan --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and that's who he was trying to bring back to marry, you know.
HENDERSON: Um. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: You know, Rocky, she's from St. Thomas, Jeanette, and, uh, Teresa was
from Puerto Rico, then Christina, um -- where was Christina from? I can't think of where she's from but T.J.'s current wife is from, was, uh -- ah, ah, ah, ah, 04:13:00oh, God -- Granada.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: So, she would talk about the influence of --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- of, uh, you know, other cultures.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: But I don't think she had a prejudiced bone in her body. She just wanted
us to marry a Southern black girl. (Unintelligible) -- But, um, she was conflicted with her own looks sometimes.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: She had a thing about the texture of her hair and the brightness of her
skin and people would make remarks about her and Daddy and the contrast and things like --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And so she was conflicted with some of that, you know, with Dad being --
They didn't know -- They would always ask her, "What are you?" you know.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
04:14:00LIMES: Meaning, "Are you -- " -- at that time -- "Spanish or not?"
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: So she had that (unintelligible) --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Anybody who was Spanish would call her "Lee-mez" and anybody else would
call her "Limes" so, it's like -- You know, you knew what the person was thinking by what --HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right.
LIMES: -- the name they'd call her. And, you know, and you'd hear, "I'm not no
damn Lee-mez."HENDERSON: So when you say that she was conflicted, clearly she didn't like --
LIMES: She didn't like having -- not having an identity. Others where you could
tell, "That's a Black person," and --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- "That's a White person. That's Hispanic. That's, uh, Japanese or Chinese."
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: She was like, "Well how come they don't know what I am?" Someone had the
nerve -- The way she used to wear her hair, it almost looked like she was Indian --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- Native American.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: And so somebody asked her, "Are you babysitting for those kids?" you
know, and because Rocky was dark-complected, and black hair. Sadie and Ferdie 04:15:00had red hair, bright red hair and, and so did Terrell. So we don't even know where that part came from.HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: Red hair with freckles.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And then you had Vern, and those were the first four that she was walking
around with.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: Somebody asked her, "You baby-sitting for those kids? So those are the
types of --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And, not -- I I can't even say she got angry, but she was disappointed
that people would assume that you had, because the kids weren't all looking like --HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right.
LIMES: -- a mirror image, that they weren't yours.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: (Unintelligible) --
HENDERSON: How interesting. I don't think -- No one else has really talked about that.
LIMES: Yeah. She, she, uh -- And she would go downstairs, Fridel, a Hispanic
gentleman had this, a little bodega down in our building, and him and Mom and Dad were close friends, dah, dah, dah. So he used to have a tab and, you know, 04:16:00put it in the back of that little notebook and --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- on payday, Dad'd come by and --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- .pay it off. And, uh well, he used to call her "Lee-mez." "Fridel, I'm
not no damn Puerto Rican." And he was Puerto Rican so (unintelligible) --HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: -- and it's, it's just funny to hear. And the person who, and he's not
here any longer, but the person who used to say it just like him was Teddy because he could (unintelligible) --HENDERSON: Oh.
LIMES: -- oh, God. But Mom was a proud lady.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: She was a proud lady. Um -- I don't think she was ever a fashion plate.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: She'd dress well, but she wasn't that "I have to have this type of gown,
that type of -- "HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: She just wanted to look good.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And more than that, she wanted her man to look good.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Uh, she taught us how to cook. She said to the, the boys, especially, if
04:17:00Mom is not here and you don't have a wife, you better learn how to do for yourself.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: I learned to (throat-clearing) cook, wash clothes, sew, clean, uh iron.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: I could iron -- Even today, I probably iron better than ninety-nine
percent of the world just because --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- when we did Daddy's shirts -- Once we got to a certain level, she
would let us do Daddy's shirt.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And that white shirt did not have a crease anywhere. And if it did, she
would wet it and crumple it up, and you had to start all over again. So, do that once or twice and you learned --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- you don't show her nothing that had a crease (laugh) in it anywhere.
And they used the old Argo starch and so that starch would be stiff as a board --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and you'd see this white shirt just stand -- You could stand it up by
04:18:00itself -- well, it was on hangers but --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And she was proud.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: "Your Daddy has to wear that." And she wouldn't let us just give him any
old thing.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: You know. He, he had a standard; she had that standard --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and you had better comply with that standard. So (laughter) -- Oh.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: But, um, she trusted us with each other, with money, responsibilities --
Um, and maybe it was forced on us because we, with her being sick we had to do certain things for --HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: Fortunate for most of us, we had older, older siblings who were already
doing it, so we just --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Like I played tagalong with Ronald and Terrell played tagalong with me
and then T.J -- .HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: So it was always a following thing.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And I guess the hardest part was Rocky, being the first, he --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- had to deal with learning.
04:19:00HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: But once he was here, everything else just trickled down from dishes to,
to mopping, to the floor, to whatever we did.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: We all did together. Um, they were times that there were three of us in
the kitchen -- one washing, one rinsing, one, uh, drying and put them away.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: You know. So we can get them done.
HENDERSON: Yeah.
LIMES: And she insisted that we work together and that's why I was talking about
the, the teamwork and the camaraderie and all that. You don't find that in a lot of families today.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- but we had to work together because we had to live so close. And so if
the kitchen was messed up, it wasn't, "Perry, go -- " "You chilr'n go fix this kitchen."HENDERSON: Mm hmm.LIMES: Now, that meant all of us, whoever was in the living room, get up and go
do --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- what had to be done.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And then come back when the, when the kitchen was done.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: So it wasn't -- She would never single anyone out and -- Even when
04:20:00something was bad, she wouldn't single, single us out, so --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: I don't know. Mom, Mom is, is I think and I, and I'll, I'll say this with
a bittersweet taste in my mouth, if Mom had not had the number of kids she had, Mom would be an M.D.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Now that may have precluded me from being born (laugh) but --
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: -- I'm, I'm realistically saying, if there was a choice in life, she
probably would have made the choice to go to med school.HENDERSON: Now why wasn't there a choice?
LIMES: I think the (sigh) financial support, backed away when she started having kids.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Um, because then it meant not just going to school, but then having to
04:21:00take care of --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And the person -- if I get this right from what she had said -- the
person who was willing to support her wasn't too much in favor of Dad.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And felt that he was elevating Mom to a status where her husband, her
mate, wasn't equal.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: There was a status problem.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And so Dad being a third grade educated person wasn't going to be
equipped to handle an M.D.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Or wasn't fit to be with an M.D.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And so everything, everyone backed away from -- Those --
HENDERSON: So this was something that Nana conveyed to you?
LIMES: She -- Yeah, she's intimated that that, she lost a lot of support for
the, for going to school because --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- of that.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: That it was a thing where, um everything that she was being pushed
04:22:00toward, then was withdrawn --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- because she was then at a point where -- "Well, you got two kids." You
got this, you got that.HENDERSON: Right. Right. We can take a break. I think everybody is maybe
(unintelligible) -- (break in audio) -- say that I really appreciate our time. Thank you.LIMES: Okay. You're welcome.
HENDERSON: Thank you.
LIMES: This is --
HENDERSON: Great. And --
LIMES: Well, it -- it's a revelation and, and, I know, Vern's said it, but I
didn't know what she meant, but as you speak and you bring things out, it brings me back to places I hadn't thought about in years and years when -- You look at your life in a, a totality. And you say to yourself, "Did I fail? Did I -- Where am I?"HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And speaking to you yesterday, I learned that I had succeeded a lot more
04:23:00than I had failed.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And so that was a revelation to me.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And so I thank you for that.
HENDERSON: You're welcome!
LIMES: Because --
HENDERSON: So you were moving around the world thinking that you failed in life --
LIMES: Well, because I didn't do this and that school, and I didn't do that, but
realized that I excelled in school --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- even if I didn't have the college degree, even if I didn't become a
doctor. Every place I went, I excelled, but I had to have someone to make me go back and look at that.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And so that uh, I realized from early on in school, then the military,
the police department -- every place I went, I really excelled --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- but I had never put that in a chain to say --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- "This has been a pattern in my life."
HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: And so now I'm looking forward to what I can accomplish going forward.
HENDERSON: (laughter) That's good!
LIMES: Yeah.
HENDERSON: That's good. That's real good.
LIMES: So that -- that's been a blessing.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
04:24:00LIMES: And I thought about that all last night.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: You know, now my thing is, I want to get this book finished. I want to --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: I, I have a second and third that I've already drafted, um --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: I want to learn to play music --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and I want to better my Spanish.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And so those are my immediate goals is --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- to get that underway.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: So now I have purpose again --
(laughter)
HENDERSON: Ah ha! That's wonderful!LIMES: So --
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: I will be, uh, devoting a certain percentage of time to studying Spanish --
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- a certain percentage of time of writing --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Aurea loves when I'm writing --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- because it gives her, um it gives her peace of mind. She knows I'm
doing something creative and something that I really want to do.HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: And so she likes it when I'm writing.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: If I'm just sitting there watching the boob tube --
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: -- then that's not productive.
HENDERSON: Uh huh. Uh huh.
LIMES: So -- It'll (unintelligible) motivation.
HENDERSON: Oh! And, well, and you do well, because, again, like everything, just
04:25:00listening yesterday, it's like everything's boom, boom, boom (unintelligible) like good thing happening, good thing happening, good thing happening.LIMES: And I hadn't put them together until you started bringing that out --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- you know, and I --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- went from elementary school up through my police career, and I said,
"You know, uh, that wasn't so bad." (laughter)HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: I don't have the bachelor's and the master's and the PhD, but I haven't
done bad in life.HENDERSON: Huh uh.
LIMES: And it was, that was one of your points, "What makes you say that you've accomplished?"
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Is it the, the getting the degree or is it the experience of getting to
that point?HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.LIMES: And I just enjoyed the experiences.
HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: So that to me, learning in life and doing in life is sometimes as
important as just going through the schooling and getting the paper.HENDERSON: Right.
04:26:00HENDERSON: I would say more important.
LIMES: Um kay.
HENDERSON: Because li -- Because another theme that I've heard, so you're
hearing that you, you hear a series of accomplishments, and what I hear is, yes, the accomplishments, but, also tied to that, like you're, you, it sounds like you've been very clear about making decisions about your life, regardless of what other pressures would come along.LIMES: Right.
HENDERSON: Making a decision about what you were going to do and the
consequences of those decisions, you dealt with. Like it's -- I -- When -- You hear, "accomplishment," and I hear, "ownership."LIMES: Okay.
HENDERSON: Like you we -- you were very much owning the different parts of your
life, and they could be one and the same, right? I mean --LIMES: Mm hmm.
HENDERSON: -- um -- Because you can take any situation and do well in it, and I
think the, the doing well is connected to how much you want to own it and say, 04:27:00"This is where I am. This is what I'm going to do," and then just kind of head in that direction. So, yeah. That's great.LIMES: Yeah, I, you know, you, you don't sit and analyze your own life and, and
that's, that's probably something that in some times are, are good --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- but in my case, I needed that --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- to, almost give me a springboard to the next phase.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And, uh, um you know, this has been a blessing.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And what you learn from us, whether it be about Samenia, each of us about
yourself, um --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- I think is going to be encapsulated into a golden globe for you.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: You going to come out of this as a better person --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- but, also, understanding, um your roots --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
04:28:00LIMES: -- and who you are and it, it's a I just find it a fantastic project.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm. (laughter) I'm excited.
LIMES: (laughter)
HENDERSON: Well, lemme, lemme ask because, what I, what I was think that we
could touch on in the little time we have, um you are probably the one that has spoken most about uh, Papa and Momma.LIMES: Mm hmm.
HENDERSON: And I wanted to know, first, if you could give me kind of any more
details about their lives who you remember them to be as people, because that -- Aunt, Aunt Vernie kind of gave me some of the kind of history, like --LIMES: Mm hmm.
HENDERSON: -- the kind of genealogical history, you know, of them. Uh but I've
heard very little about their personalities.LIMES: Okay.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Well, I remember Papa (throat-clearing) and, and we would see him, Papa
04:29:00was a mail carrier and we would see him and they didn't have the vehicles then, so he was on his bicycle --HENDERSON: Oh.
LIMES: -- and he would ride it. Very amiable type of person. He would talk to
every -- Matter of fact, his route used to take longer than it should because as he was delivering the mail, he was having conversations.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: As I said, before our section -- and I don't know whether it was just
Wood Street, but seemed to be very integrated --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- so he had a lot of interactions with people of all colors, people of
all ages.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: You know, new homeowners and the established that had been there long
before he --HENDERSON: Yeah.
LIMES: Um that being said, I didn't see -- After the greetings at home, when he
came home, and he showered or or, or bathed. They didn't shower (unintelligible). But when he bathed and came out, and he hugged all the 04:30:00grandkids and just spoke to Momma and they talked about the day.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Then he became a little bit more reclusive. And, but that was his, I
think his wind-down --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- because he would get out the big stogie and he would have him a little
drink and he would go into his portion of the house, which was the screened in porch.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And if he happened to have other males, like some of the uncles would
come by --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- they went in there. Now, anybody who was young -- We didn't get to go.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: The only time we went in there is if he asked Momma for something, and we
were taking it to him --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- and we -- That was the purpose to go through those doors, but, um --
Papa wasn't the type to, after he made you know that he loved, loved you --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- with the hugs and a kiss, and he'd sometimes tea -- tease you, "C'mere
boy, I'm going to," you know, "bite your neck," or something.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: He'd say little things. And that was probably half hour, forty-five
04:31:00minutes of the early afternoon, early evening, rather.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And then he became more reclusive. Now I know he was a hard-working man.
And, and this is from, again, from seeing him.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: He worked seven da -- uh, six days a week --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- delivering mail.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And his route was such that he had to walk or bike his route.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: And so I know that he was always having leg pains, and he -- But Momma
had the, the, the Epsom Salt type baths and other things and so I saw that, I saw the caring from her, the tenderness --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- soothing him, because he was a good provider, and I think -- I always
look at a man who provides for his family.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: There is much more to the love than just love.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
04:32:00LIMES: There's much more to love than just the affection.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: You have to love a person enough to want to care for that person --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and I mean, when I said "care," total care --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- you know, physical, spiritual, mental --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and financial. And he was that man.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: He -- Now I didn't see Papa pray a lot --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- but I know that he didn't allow cursing in his house --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- so I used to associate the two hand-in-hand.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: I used to think, "Well, if you're not going to let nobody say 'GD' then
something must be wrong with it."HENDERSON: Something, right, right.
LIMES: -- so his spirit -- spirituality may have been internal, but he had it.
HENDERSON: All right.
LIMES: Um, the affection toward Momma was undeniable.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: That I saw. Now, he may have not -- with us all the time, but I know that
he loved, he loved her.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
04:33:00LIMES: And so we saw that. But that patriarchal period, a man was almost like a
king or a duke or prince in his own house.HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: Um, the women in the house, because it was Momma and two of her
daughters, two of his daughters, almost like catered to him. He went out, provided, did all those things, and they made sure that he was com -- comfortable and --HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: And so that was the Papa I, I knew. Um, when we went to the beach or went
to the park or, or different areas, it wasn't him that took us, it was the younger men, the, the uncles that took us. Papa was mostly in the house.HENDERSON: Uh huh. After he got back from --
LIMES: Yeah. Mm hmm.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: He was mostly in the house. And he, you know, he, he, his word was the
law in his house or he made the deciding of it. You know, you could debate with Momma; you couldn't debate with Papa.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And, because Momma would say, "I'm going to ask Papa."
04:34:00HENDERSON: Right.
(laughter)
LIMES: You know, or Sam -- she called him "Sam" -- I'm going to ask Sam what he,
what --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: He was Samuel Wilson and, and, uh -- I am very proud and, and I'm the
only one of the ten kids to hold the Wilson name.HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Yeah.
LIMES: I, I have both surnames in my name.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And I'm very proud of that --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- because I love the Wilsons and what they tried to do.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Now, Wilsons -- A lot of people would say that Sam Wilson was arrogant or
aloof --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- because he didn't go out once he came home.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: I didn't see him go out to socialize. I saw people come to him.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: Now, being the first of I guess, uh, uh, his generation to get that Civil
Service, the first Black postal worker, the first this, the first that, I think 04:35:00he was probably one of the first Black families in that block --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- but then there were others that came in.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: Um, I think he people looked up to him.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And, so, they came to him more than he went outside the house.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Now Momma was the type, she'd be she'd walk down the street and be
standing at the fence talking to somebody with somebody else on the other side, you know.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: The old, um, uh, Norman Rockwell type paintings where you see the two
women at the fence talking to each other or --HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and that's Momma. You know? She was the matriarch, very uh, I guess
she, she was more more social than, than Papa was.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: But also more -- You could sit on Momma's lap, put your head on her
shoulder --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
04:36:00LIMES: -- and even go to sleep, and she would -- she wouldn't move --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- because she didn't want to wake you up -- that type of thing.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: She was very accommodating and so that's the Momma -- She was that warm,
um the smell of apple pie and -- I mean you associate all those things with, in her. They have a -- had a big potbellied stove and she would put muffins on top of the stove and you could smell the cinnamon and the other spices --HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- so it was always that, that household that you wanted to go to --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and that, I call it her "fat face," but that little chubby face that
you wanted to see.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And she always had the biggest hug and kiss for you, so, you know. Now,
did we interact with her as much? No, we probably interacted with Thedra and, and, uh, Irma more, because they were the younger, they were the young -- our, our aunts were (unintelligible) younger ladies.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And so when we had to sit down and eat, Thedra would be "You sit here and
04:37:00you sit here and -- " and Irma, the same thing. Irma was --HENDERSON: So when you all were there, about how old were they?
LIMES: Um (sigh) Thedra and, and, uh, Irma are younger than Mom, so I would say
they were -- Uh, Mom was born in '12 and I was born in '45 so we're, we're thirty-three years apart and I would say we Thedra was probably five or six years younger than Mom and Irma -- So if was five or six, they probably were no more than twenty years older than us.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: So they were young women.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: You know, and, and I'd say anywhere between twenty-five and thirty-five.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And I'm not sure of the exact ages --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- but they, they were young women and, um, so they were the ones who --
04:38:00Like Irma was the disciplinarian. If you got a spanking, it was Irma who gave you the spanking.HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: Thedra was more of the kitchen, dining area controller.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And then Momma was, of course, over the whole house.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: So when there was anybody to be chased, Irma chased them.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And she, she spanked us and she controlled us. And Thedra provided our nourishment.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And then Momma was always sitting. You could see her in her rocking
chair, inside, outside, you know -- And, but when it was time to cook, she went in her kitchen and she supervised the kitchen. Thedra could burn she could really burn --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- but Momma was -- She taught them all, so she was the --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- you know, and she'd taste something, "Thedra, it needs something. Dah,
dah, dah." "Okay."HENDERSON: Uh huh. (laughter)
LIMES: And so I didn't see her do the cooking a lot. I saw Thedra and others, um
Bubba's wife, uh, Emily used to come by. So there were other people who used to 04:39:00help out, especially when all the cousins were there.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: Um, but Thedra was, Thedra and, and Irma were like Momma's right hands.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And Momma would -- She provided the love. She provided the, the, the
comfort of being there --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and knowing -- You know, she'd ask you about -- Momma, in particular,
would ask you about school.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: "How, how you'd do? What are you doing? Where you going? What are you
thinking about?" She was more engaging in that -- Wanting to know about your life.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Papa didn't do any of that, you know. I, I think Papa, once he hugged you
and knew you were all right, he went about his business.(laughter)
LIMES: But Momma was the one who -- She knew all of our grades. She knew all of
our the, the, the schools, the, any joys, sorrows, you know, accomplishments, 04:40:00failures. She knew all of those. So Momma was the more engaging person.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And I think she got it from her daughters. Um, her, all her daughters
used to report to her what the kids were doing.HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right.
LIMES: And she kept track of everybody, you know.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: "I hear you're doing this this year."
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: "I hear you're doing -- " And, and I'm trying to give the Southern drawl,
but --HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: -- that's, that's how it went, you know. "Boy, I hear you're doing this
this year." You know? "Yes, ma'am." (laughter)HENDERSON: Mm hmm. (laughter)
LIMES: So that's, you know -- And, and, we didn't get disciplined from Momma --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- all we got was affection. I've never seen Momma mad, angry --
HENDERSON: Um.
LIMES: -- at anyone. Now, I'm sure she had her moments --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- that she is human.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: But I've never seen it --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- you know. I've seen Papa angry --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- and it's only been anger when we did something to disrespect somebody.
HENDERSON: Ahhh --
LIMES: The one thing he -- and he would not allow, and I found out my Dad was
the same way -- the one thing they wouldn't allow was disrespect of Mom.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
04:41:00LIMES: Disrespect of his wife.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And he wouldn't say, "your mother," he'd say, "You disrespected my wife."
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: That meant more to him than any hereditary --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- possibility.
HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: You know?
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: "You disrespect my wife," not, "You disrespected your mother or your
grandmother."HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And so that was important. And his wife was his (laugh) --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: She was on that pedestal and you had better -- I, I won't say "pay
homage," but that's what it was almost like.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: She was in his shrine, you'd better treat her like the queen she was, to him.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Right.
LIMES: And so, you know -- But, um, I don't know any of Papa's friends, and
Momma's friends were always neighbors.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Now, she was out with a younger crowd, because she had younger daughters.
04:42:00Women from the church or women from places would come by to see the girls.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Yeah, I've seen women come by and there would be eight, ten women in the
kitchen cooking at one time --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- at Momma's house.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: But then she would feed twenty-five people --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- so you know, that's the type of environment Mom -- Momma created for --
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- for us as kids.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And all we saw was a lot of love, a lot of food (laughter) --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and a lot of activity. And we were always running around outside doing things.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: You know? And, and it didn't matter the age of the cousins. She permitted
us to play.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Um, if we got hurt, eh, Momma was the one who would tend to our --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- little aches and pains, so --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: She was that, that, that nurturer, she was that person who -- But, uh,
you know, that -- that's my memories of them. And like I said, after we got to a certain age, we stopped going down -- 04:43:00HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and (sigh) it wasn't the same because we didn't see them, and then
when they passed and we went down, it wasn't the same, because that presence wasn't there.HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: And so it became then hard to say, "This is the same house." You know?
You felt a certain vibe when they were there, versus their absence didn't the, the, the warmth of the house wasn't the same as it was.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Yeah.
HENDERSON: Now what about the uncles -- Nana's brothers?
LIMES: Most of them, um (sigh) -- Irvin was up in, in -- Well, Irvin died early.
He, he was hit by a car, or a cab.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Um, Chris was -- Now, and I'm -- hearsay on this one. Chris fled to
Virginia because he disrespected Momma and Papa chased him out of the house with 04:44:00a gun.HENDERSON: Oh! Okay. Mm hmm.
LIMES: And, and that's how stern he was with respect.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: Chris fled the house and, from what I've gotten from my oldest siblings --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- Papa used to find out where he was in Georgetown, a club, a store, any
-- and go look for him.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And he finally had to flee South Carolina completely.
HENDERSON: Ohhh --
LIMES: And he, that's how he wound up in Virginia --
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- because Papa was going to kill him somewhere.
HENDERSON: Ohhh -- .
LIMES: Now this is all second hand --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- from Ron, Vern, you know, Ferdie when he was alive --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- uh, Rocky -- Sadie said it, but I don't remember Rocky saying it. But
all the older ones knew of this --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- incident. Whatever happened Uncle Chris really got to
uh, Papa's bad side. 04:45:00HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And he actively looked for him with a weapon. Going around Georgetown and
every time he found him, he threatened to kill him or --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- Chris had to run from him.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: But finally he ran out of state.
HENDERSON: Wow.
LIMES: So Chris was gone. Bubba followed Papa. Bubba became a, a mailman, also.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: But Bubba was Bubba was a little loony at, towards part of his life.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And he used to talk to the wind and talk to the storms and --
HENDERSON: Oh, I see. Mm hmm.
LIMES: He's the one who brought the hail and the rain in a storm outside the
window and he's going to park it there for forty days and --HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: So Bubba was a --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And then Sammy, which, Sammy was too busy making kids. (laughter) He had --
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: -- he had fourteen kids.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Um, I think he had twelve with his first wife, Rosa, and then she passed.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: And then I think he two, three or four more -- I, I'm not even sure of
the number --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- total.
04:46:00HENDERSON: All right.
LIMES: But I know he had a bunch of kids --
HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: -- and so Sammy um, I don't know what Uncle Sammy did for a living.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Except that he would go and was having another baby (laughter) so maybe
that was his vocation --(laughter)
LIMES: -- was child-rearing. I don't know. (laugh) Um (laugh) -- I don't know
whether they hired them out.HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: Now, I do now that Mom has a half-brother, Uncle Priestly.
HENDERSON: Um umm.
LIMES: Um, she has, I think a half-sister, so Papa had his outside flings.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: But, again, that, of course, it was before me, because Mom and Priestly
are the same age.HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: So, what do you do? That was way back when.
HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right.
LIMES: Um, so I don't know any of that firsthand.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: I do know of my uncle, firsthand, because --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- Uncle Priestly was in our life.
HENDERSON: Yeah, I remember him. Mm hmm.
LIMES: Yes.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
04:47:00LIMES: But, um, I think there was another one and I think there was another girl
and another boy. Now, I don't know them.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Vern would know them.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: But they do that he had, he fathered other children --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- outside. And I say "children," because we know of Priestly and I, we
know there's at least one more --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- outside of the, the marriage with Momma.
HENDERSON: Now who -- So who when you were in Georgetown for the summers, who
would take you to the beach and that sort of thing? Which, which uncle?LIMES: It would be, um, Bubba, Uncle -- and his name is Theodore --
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: It would be Uncle Bubba, and that was before he went bonkers.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: Uncle Bubba, um he had a vehicle, he had a car, and he had, uh Bubba, I
think, had four boys --HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: -- and one girl, Guida, and, and then the four boys. And, um he was
always -- He was younger than Mom, so he was always the energetic -- Now Uncle 04:48:00Irvin was would have been because when he was in New York, he took us to everything.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: He took us to the park. He took us everyplace, the beaches --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: But then when he got killed, of course that stopped.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: But Uncle Bubba was the one down -- And, and it was either Uncle Bubba or Irma.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Thedra stayed home, always cooked. Irma took us -- Irma used to work on
Myrtle Beach and she used to defy, because she worked for a White owner on the beach, she used to take us there.HENDERSON: Ohhh --
LIMES: We weren't supposed to be on that part of the beach.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: But she used to defy it because the owners say, "I own this piece."
HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: Sooo -- (laughter)
HENDERSON: So y'all would go on the White section of the beach?
LIMES: Yes. Yes.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: So we had that privilege if you will --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- but we couldn't play with anybody (unintelligible) (laughter) --
HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: -- but we, we have to play with ourselves. (laughter) We had the ri -- we
had the privilege of being there, but --HENDERSON: (laughter)
04:49:00LIMES: -- we might as well been in the back yard, because that's, the only group
we brought is what, who we could play with.HENDERSON: (laughter) Mm hmm.
LIMES: It wasn't, um any different.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: But, yeah, it was -- And it was Mom's siblings who used to mostly take
care of us.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Momma was there at the house. Papa was working most of the time, and then
he'd be there on the, on the, Saturday night to Monday morning.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: But he left for work like six in the morning and he didn't come home
'till maybe six in the evenings.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: So his was a long day and (sigh) I, when he first started, when he was
walking, it was hard. But then when he got his bike, it was easier.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: You know.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Now what was Nana's discussion of them, about
her family?LIMES: Nana didn't talk about Papa except in a disciplinarian way.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: Papa was the, the, the rod.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
04:50:00LIMES: Momma was um the, the matriarch, but if they had to be disciplined, Momma
would tell Papa. Papa was the rod.HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: Um, so Mom never talked to, about Papa in a gentle way. It was always a
disciplinarian way.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Uh, Mom idolized Momma, and I think Momma -- The, the, the, the mutual
affection was there.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Um Momma saw in Mom a lot of herself. Momma was one who achieved a lot in school.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Like I said, she was her valedictorian at her school.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And then Mom was achieving the same way in school. A lot of the other
kids -- Well, Genevieve didn't want school at all.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: She wanted to hang out. She wanted to do her thing, but she was the
oldest, and should have been doing the things that Mom did for the family. 04:51:00Genevieve was out doing her own thing --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- so, um, consequently, Mom and Momma with Mom being the second oldest,
they became very close --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and Mom helped with the younger kids, you know, so it's -- Like in our
family, Sadie and Rocky helped almost raise --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- the younger kids, uh, so Mom was like that with her siblings. You
know, she learned to cook early, she learned to care for --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- even while attending school --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- she did all those things.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: But she, she was very warm with, with Momma. I didn't get the, uh, the
communications was there, but I didn't get, at that time anything but a, a, a mutual admiration for each other.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
04:52:00LIMES: Uh, love, yes, but I didn't see the open affection.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: I didn't see -- But I, I knew that, that there was a closeness and --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: And I think Mom -- Momma was, um -- And I -- Mom had said she was
disappointed. I didn't know whether she was disappointed, um, that Mom didn't become the doctor --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- because I think that's what Momma wanted.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: What, uh -- (sigh) See, it's hard for me fathom, having gone through the
civil rights era, what Momma went through, as a young woman of color, but some of her family passed for White.HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: So, I, I can't even imagine what she was going through in the late
eighteen hundreds, um --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- what that did, and, and how she struggled. And I know Mom had -- when
they used to talk about it -- they had to go to school, they had to go across the tracks.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
04:53:00LIMES: Well, that meant into a predominantly Black school system --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- where the school system in Georgetown itself was White.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: So they went across the tracks to the school. What hardships those were,
Mom didn't really bring out. She just used to tell me to do my best wherever I was at --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and so that, to me, meant that she would have done her best in the
White school system or in the Black school system.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: She said, "You just do you best," you know --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- and, and that came from her mother --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- um, going through -- Now I know some of Momma's relatives -- immediate
relatives -- were passing as White.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: You know, she came from a biracial uh, uh, family --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and so I know some of them passed as White, and they, the Vanderbilts
were totally separate from the Black side --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
04:54:00LIMES: -- you know? So it, it's, um, it's amazing that she was able to take her
energies and still focus while going through some of these pressures that they went through.HENDERSON: Who are the Vanderbilts?
LIMES: That's, that's Momma's surname.
HENDERSON: Oh.
LIMES: Her family name was Vanderbilt.
HENDERSON: Ohhh -- Oh. Okay.
LIMES: And, um, so you had some of those. Was it "Vanderbilt" or "Vanderhorst."
And I'll look it up.HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: It's one of the two, but it, they were -- I don't know whether it would
be Swedish or Dutch or where, where the ancestry came from.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Um, that's part of, another part of my mission --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- um, to find out, more about Momma's side.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: We were looking at Daddy's side. There's a lot, but we neglected -- both
Ferdie and I, because we did a lot of it -- we neglected to go to Momma's, to the Wilsons and then to Momma's side.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
04:55:00LIMES: So -- You know, it's something that I'd like to find out more about.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Uh, but I do know that some of them were very, very fair and so they
passed for White.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Mom told me that she had two either uncles or Uncle (unintelligible) who
would not identify as black.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: But, um, Momma was she was a, a student. Mom became a student --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and Mom tried to make her kids students.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: You know?
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And so we, we tried --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- in our limited ways, we tried.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And some of us succeeded and some didn't, but we all, the one thing we
all got in life was we all worked hard --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- with whatever we did. Uh, it didn't matter whether we were at home, uh
04:56:00in a job, wherever we went, I can say everybody did well with whatever they did.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: In, you know, military, uh, civil service, private industry, banking,
wherever it was --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- that we'd gone.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: So that's (sigh) about all I know about Momma -- Momma and Papa, you know.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: But One, One Twenty-Eight Wood Street was almost like a sanctuary for everybody.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: And, so, you know, the, the family is, is, is, is blessed because of that
type of community.HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: And then I saw Mom do the same thing. When we, regardless of whether she
was on Lacombe Avenue or a Hundred and Sixteenth Street, it seemed like everyone gravitated toward Mom.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And she became the hub for an extended family, whether it was her
immediate family, or like Dad's people, um, Dad's sisters' kids, our cousins.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
04:57:00LIMES: They all called Mom "Mom." They all gravitated towards her.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: So it was a thing that, a thing that was generation passed on.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And then I saw my sister, Vern, become something of that.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Um, we laugh. I don't think there's anyone in our family, other than
Rocky, who didn't live with Verna and Noble for a while.HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Wow! I didn't know that.
LIMES: Yeah, we've all lived with Vern.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: Yeah, and I probably was one of the first, having gone there -- But even
Sadie, when Melvin was overseas --HENDERSON: Yes. She told me that. Mm hmm.
LIMES: Um, you know, so -- And Ronnie, Sonia, T.J., Terrell --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Uh, I don't know about Ronald and I, Rocky, but, um, Ferdie and Sadie.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: So, Vern then became that person or that, that thing that everybody went
to and, and hung around. 04:58:00HENDERSON: Now, I didn't know -- I -- That's interesting. She men -- Aunt Vernie
mentioned a couple, you know, of the siblings that came, but I didn't realize it was that many. Now what, what would you say -- this can be my final question -- what -- Who is the Samenia Limes that you knew, that maybe no one else knew?LIMES: Um the Samenia Limes I knew was undeniably affectionate, but also living
in denial. Mom -- And, and, I don't, I think it's probably wide knowledge, but 04:59:00not widely acknowledged -- Um, Mom lived in denial with Dad for a period of time. She adored his behind. She adored him, but knew that he wasn't all that her husband should be --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- in the Biblical sense.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And, so, I think she was in denial of that part. The one thing I think
that Mom held close to her chest and, and, probably, suppressed, was Mom's sadness of not going further in her educational life.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: She always said that she should have, and she said, "I wouldn't trade any
of my ten kids for that, but I should have taken that opportunity."HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
05:00:00LIMES: And she would always mention -- And I forget who it is that was going to
pay. But she had a full ride through medical school --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- if she's so elected. And, uh, it was some doctor -- whether it was in
the family or close to the family.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And I think it might have been Dr. Till, because he was the doc -- he was
next door. Um he was one of those old family-type physicians. And (laugh) it's funny, his nurse, her name was "Nurse."HENDERSON: (laughter)
LIMES: So it was Nurse Nurse.
HENDERSON: (Unintelligible) --
LIMES: Um, and we always laughed about that, and it's so funny. And she always,
um, said -- and I think she was a contemporary of Mom -- she --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- always said that Mom was so smart and --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- that she, Doc Till thought the world of her, and I think that is the
one thing that people don't know and hear, that Mom regretted, internally, she 05:01:00was saddened by the fact that she never did what she wanted to do.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And I think saddened by the fact that her kids didn't go that route.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: The only one who wanted medicine was Vern and, unfortunately, marriage
and travel and other things, it escaped her.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Um, Terrell became a nurse but that much later.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Uh, my son is in respiratory and he's doing well, but that's much later.
But for her own seed, she wanted one of us to go into medicine --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and we all had the potential to go into medicine, but none of us liked medicine.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: She did.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: She, she would have eaten up being a physician.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And I think that's the one thing that, about her that not many people
05:02:00know or share, because she didn't, she didn't complain about anything --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- but she harbored that as her one failure in life.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And so that's, to me, is the, the Mom that people don't know, but people
should know, that she still had a burning desire. Even, even after she was in her forties --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- uh, could she go back to school?
HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: And I don't think we ever had the means for her to go back to school.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
LIMES: You know, there were people who went to school with the G.I. Bill. Well,
Dad wasn't a G.I.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: Mom couldn't have availed herself of that.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: There were people who had means to go to school, either money or time;
Mom had neither --HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- and then she didn't know whether she had the health to go back to school.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: But she al -- always wanted to continue her education.
HENDERSON: Now did she -- And, and this you know from your discussions with her.
LIMES: Yes. Mm hmm.
HENDERSON: Now, did she ever did she really connect, um, not having gone to the
05:03:00school with having a family or were there other obstacles in her way, like, perhaps race or her sex?LIMES: No, she had an acceptance.HENDERSON: Okay. So it, that was done.
LIMES: Yes. It was a done deal.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: It was her election to go off with Dad.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and that, I think caused a little rift with her mother and her, um,
because her mother saw in her the potential to excel. And then I think the same thing happened with me and my mother.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: When she saw the potential, and I didn't go the way she wanted me to go.
Because Mom made the same decision. She made the decision to go with Dad --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and not to go to school.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: She would have had her college and her medical school paid for.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And she would have probably went into a practice that was already
established --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
05:04:00LIMES: -- so those are the things that Momma saw, and it -- I, I don't say
"anger," uh, it hurt her. And by the same token, those are the things that Mom saw in me and some of her other kids and it hurt her --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- because you know they have the potential. You know they -- But they
don't have the desire to do that. Well, at the time, Mom didn't have the desire.LIMES: You said "ownership" of your life.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Well, her ownership was that man who wooed her made her happy and she
went that way instead of to school.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: She couldn't do both --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- because, um from what I know from her conversations, once she decided
to be with Daddy the support for the school ended --HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Uh huh.
LIMES: -- so -- .
HENDERSON: And I was going to ask -- Let's see. I was going to ask if she ever
05:05:00kind of talked directly about that decision?LIMES: She was in love.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And she said that at that point the only thing that mattered was -- Now
she thought she could work it out --HENDERSON: Ohhh --
LIMES: -- but she immediately started having kids and everything got pushed back
and back and back.HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: And you get to a certain point where it's hard on you financially,
because she lost the financial support --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- but it's also hard for you to get acceptance now into that university
or that, that, that, um, school, that's going to -- because now you're out of school for a certain period.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Um, you don't have the, the, the, the grades -- not the grades -- the,
um, the subjects, um, have not been updated enough.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
05:06:00LIMES: A lot of things preclude you from tracing back those steps --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- and that's where she wound up.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Um, if she had married Dad and gone back to school that year, she
probably would have done it.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: But then Dad was, being uneducated, didn't see the value in that, also.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: So, and that probably -- I don't know, but that probably had an effect also.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: Um, someone either helps you and pushes you toward where you want to go,
or they hinder you.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And I see it in my own child --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- and so I know if you don't have that support, it's hard to step
forward into something that's difficult as it is.HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: You know? It wasn't that she was going, and she wanted one year of
college. She was going to go through eight years of college.HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: So -- With kids, with a husband --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- and no support.
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: So --
HENDERSON: Right.
05:07:00LIMES: -- it would've been financially difficult, but it became, with, with
Jero, my father, it became financially impossible.HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: He didn't make the money and she had lost the support.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: So, she -- Yeah, her decision was, she wanted Jero. She didn't want to
let him go.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: She had been smitten by the love bug.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: But that decision cost her a lot in, in the area of support.
HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: And it's the same with me when I ran away, when I ran to the military.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: I would've been in the military and finished college and went in the
military as an officer. I didn't. I went and enlisted. But that was my decision.HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: And so we make these things and then we go, "Damn, I should have -- " or,
"I could've -- " and you, me and no one else can go back --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
05:08:00LIMES: We can all, all an -- analyze what we did and try to make a better
decision the next time.HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
LIMES: You know, so -- And I'm sure with you it's hard. Uh, and I don't want to
put in on you, but to get a PhD with four kids and --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- you know, it, it's, it's a struggle --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- knowing that you have to do your work and you have to help them --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- live.
HENDERSON: Right. Right.
LIMES: So --
HENDERSON: Right.
LIMES: -- I think that's -- Could it have been done? Yes. If it were today,
maybe. Back in nineteen what? Twelve -- Nineteen thirty --HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- I don't know.
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: I don't know what the conditions were in nineteen thirty --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- for them to have to do something like that.
HENDERSON: Um --
LIMES: So, she was a nineteen-year-old girl --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm.
LIMES: -- or eighteen year old. I think she was nineteen when she born -- er, I
mean, nineteen when she was married, or nineteen when she conceived Rocky.HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
05:09:00LIMES: So a lot of things were (unintelligible) --
HENDERSON: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Okay.
LIMES: I'm going to thank you (unintelligible) --
HENDERSON: Well, thank you. Thank you --
LIMES: (laughter) Thank you.
HENDERSON: -- very much. Let me stop this.
