Ronald L. Limes oral history interview, 2016-03-15

KELLY LIMES-TAYLOR HENDERSON: So we're gonna get started. Um, I'm particularly excited because you're the first of Nana's sons --

RONALD LIMES: Oh, is that right?

HENDERSON: -- that I've gotten to talk to. I've talked to mom and I've talked to Aunt Vernie and so I know -- well, I'm assuming that the girls, Nana's girls, had a certain vantage point from how things went and so, you know --

LIMES: Yeah. Uh huh.

HENDERSON: The, the sons, I'm sure had, although different, you know, varying --

LIMES: Mm-hm.

HENDERSON: -- but just a different vantage point.

LIMES: Right.

HENDERSON: So, if we can start. Um, just tell me who I'm talking to.

LIMES: Okay. I'm, uh, I'm Ron, and if you ever hear "Ronald," it means that I did something wrong --

HENDERSON: (laughter)

LIMES: -- because that's what mom called me when I did something wrong.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: So, when I heard "Ronald," uh --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- my neck jerked, okay?

HENDERSON: (laughter)

LIMES: But I'm Ronald, and I'm the fifth child --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- uh, the third boy. I'm right in the middle. So I had an advantage, I 00:01:00think of, uh, the siblings, all of my siblings, I was there for, uh, the most part, um, for the older ones and, uh, actually latched onto Ferdie's coattails and he showed me a lot and I'm, I'm grateful for that, uh --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: And then I was sort of the leader for the last five.

HENDERSON: For the younger ones --

LIMES: So, um you know, I had, uh, some, some very strong ties to, to the older ones and, and some very strong ties to the younger ones.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: You know, as you heard Sonia in talking about -- You know, unfortunately, uh, dad passed away. Uh, I was twenty-four, and, um sort of placed in, in, in, uh, a position of responsibility at a, at a young age in terms of the family. 00:02:00Um, having had, uh, a bit more education than my oldest siblings, um, so -- And, and I guess my personality, maybe, uh, was also considered in that.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Uh, just some, uh, maybe organizational and leadership qualities --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- that, that, uh, I guess I'm blessed with. And, uh --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Now were you living at home, were you at home when your father passed?

LIMES: Ah -- I, no, I, uh, Barbara and I were married --

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: -- and, as a matter of fact, Ron was the baby -- uh, my son, Ron, uh, junior, was the baby, uh, and he was the last grandchild that my dad saw. So, uh, Ron was born in June of 1967 --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm --

LIMES: -- and dad passed in October of 1967, so, um he was the, the last one. And at the time, Sonia and Veronica were eleven and twelve -- is that right? -- 00:03:00twelve and thirteen, and, uh, so I had, uh done some things with them, taking them out of school and getting them prepared and, and then on the backend, on the financial end, uh, uh, having some knowledge of banking -- I was working in the bank -- and, uh, doing some things for mom, setting up, uh, funds for her from dad's retirement and then so on. So, uh, a lot of that, I took responsibility for, uh, and, and it was, you know, I guess welcomed and, and, also, uh, I, I did have all of the help that I needed from my siblings.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Uh, nobody shied away, um, just the, uh, number one, my availability. My oldest siblings were, were married and then the girls were living elsewhere at 00:04:00this time and, uh, and my brothers -- um, like I said, I just had a, a bit more knowledge on, on certain aspects --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- so, uh that was when Perry and TJ were both in the military, when dad passed.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: So, um, so I, uh, you know, assumed those, those kinds of responsibilities. But, uh, that's me and, uh, you know, um it was, it's been good, it's been a good run --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. (laughter)

LIMES: -- and still is.

HENDERSON: I was gonna say, "It's not -- Why is it past tense?" It (unintelligible)!

LIMES: No, it's, it's, it's a good run, it's a good run, and we, uh, we enjoy one another, as you can see, when we get together.

HENDERSON: (laughter)

LIMES: We do, we, we are, we have a real good time. As a matter of fact, you speak to other people and we tell them about our sibling reunions and they say, "You guys really get together for that? And y'all, nobody fights and nobody -- " Uh, we just love on one another and then --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: And that's, uh that's a part of our upbringing and, uh, we were taught that and it was ingrained -- in loving and sharing. Um if you had a, a five-cent bag of potato chips, you shared it with your brothers and sisters, you know? Uh, I can remember Ms. Wilson, who was like a surrogate grandmother -- she lived across the hall from us -- and she made biscuits from scratch. And, see, I would go over in the morning, and Sunday morning, and, and get my biscuit and drink some coffee with Ms. Wilson and --

HENDERSON: How old were -- How old were you?

LIMES: I was three, four years old.

HENDERSON: (laughter)

LIMES: And, uh (laughter) and they would pour, basically, milk in this saucer for me and I would sop my biscuit and then drink my milk and they would have their coffee and, you know --

HENDERSON: Oh -- (laugh)

LIMES: -- on Saturday mornings or whatever and, um we, uh, we had a good time.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: But then I would, uh, also get my biscuit and say, "I gotta go now," because I'd have to go home and share that with my brothers and sisters.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: And they would say, "No, we'll give you something to take home," so that way eat my biscuit there, and then, they, Ms. Wilson made sure they always made a pan of biscuits for the family you know?

HENDERSON: For them -- Mm-hm.

LIMES: That, that kind of thing. But that's the kind of thing. So, from a, from that, you know, we were, we were taught to, to share and, and, and, uh -- That was one thing that mom insisted on, you know.

HENDERSON: Could you talk more about just your home life, when, that you recall when you were younger? Where were you living, where were you -- You know, because Aunt Vernie was small in a different place than you were small and --

LIMES: Okay. Well, um, basically, we were small in the same place. Uh, she spent a few more years in South Carolina than I did. Uh, we moved to New York -- I was 00:07:00a year and a half old, September of 1944. So I was a year and a half old, so, basically, I don't remember anything from Georgetown prior to moving to New York.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Now I do remember a childhood, you know, going back to visit --

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: -- and so on -- Um, basically 1947 and so on, thereafter, I do remember, uh, going to South Carolina for the summers. But my whole life, what I remember is, uh, New York, Harlem, USA, okay, if you would.

HENDERSON: (laughter)

LIMES: Uh, we grew up a Hundred Sixteenth Street in Manhattan, in Harlem, and, uh, just, uh -- The, the perception of, of Harlem was one that, uh, I've, I've come to understand and it's really a, so much of it is, is false, but then so 00:08:00much of it is true.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Um, but I had a, uh, a well-rounded childhood, um two parents at home, loving. Uh, mom got sick, uh, early on, and never went out to work once we moved to New York. Uh, she was a teacher in South Carolina, and taught school, but when we got to New York, she never worked after, uh, 1944. So she was a stay-home mom and, and raised kids and she had five more kids after she moved to New York, okay? So, I was the last child born in South Carolina and, uh, my five siblings younger than me were all born in New York. So, uh and here I am, uh, 00:09:00growing up in Harlem, young kid and I, maybe I was inquisitive, uh, but, uh, we went to all-black schools. And I think I got to the fifth grade and a white family moved into the neighborhood, and there were two boys, uh, who went to school, and the older happened to be my age and wound up in my class -- Eddie Tate -- you know, I remember his name. And, um, Eddie and I became good friends, and that was my first kind of exposure to another race. Uh I mean, naturally, I had seen white folk, but never had any encounter. And, um, as a child, I didn't think any different. Eddie and I played on the playground together. You know, we 00:10:00never visited home with one another, but, uh, we did get together and check our homework with one another and that kind of thing. And, uh, we were, I guess, both above average students, uh, academically, and, uh, went through from, I guess, the fifth grade through the ninth grade together. He went to a different high school than I did. Um, but my, my school years were, were very, very good, uh. I was, uh, like I said, above average, and, uh I started school very young to begin with, and then I got to the third grade and they wanted to move me to the fourth grade, and they did, uh for a period of time -- I say "a period of time." It was, I guess, a short period of time, a couple of weeks, and then uh, 00:11:00word came back from the Board of Ed that my age, so on, wouldn't allow for that. And you have to remember this was, uh, God, 1953, '54, so, uh, the way the Board of Ed looked at things, uh, and, at that time, uh, probably didn't allow for, uh, the skipping of grades and they were more strict on the age requirements, you know.

HENDERSON: Now when you said you started young --

LIMES: Yeah, uh -- Well, I went to first grade at, at five years old, as opposed to six --

HENDERSON: Uh huh. Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- because, uh again, under those guidelines and those rules, I was five years and five months by the time the school year started.

HENDERSON: I see. I see.

LIMES: Okay?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: From April to September allowed me to go into, to that class, all right? 00:12:00If you five years, five months, you were able to go to school, into the first grade, as opposed to kindergarten.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: I never went to kindergarten --

HENDERSON: (laughter)

LIMES: -- where Perry and the youngest, they all went to kindergarten.

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: And, uh, because -- Just for example, TJ, he was born in May, so September, he wasn't five years, five months. See? Perry in June. He wasn't five years, five months. All right?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: So they had to go to kindergarten.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: All right?

HENDERSON: That's funny.

LIMES: Yeah, so I was always the (pounding for emphasis) youngest in my class.

HENDERSON: (laughter)

LIMES: Okay? And, um, you know, but, uh --

HENDERSON: But you excelled, because you said you were above average.

LIMES: Yeah.

HENDERSON: So what does "above average" mean?

LIMES: Well, um (sigh) how can I say? Uh I guess learning came to me very easily 00:13:00at, at a young age. And, um it, it probably does to this day. I mean in my -- Lemme just jump ahead for a --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm! Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- a quick minute, but in my career, I was, uh, an analyst, and I think I mentioned I was a business analyst at one point in my career. I had to walk into a, a, a unit or department, uh, uh, a place of business, and be able to understand their business in a very short period of time.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: And, uh, I was pretty good at it (laughter) okay?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: So they -- Let's go back to, to grade school. Um reading, and, and maybe with the help of mom, knuckling me in the head every --

HENDERSON: Yeah. (laughter)

LIMES: -- once in a while, okay?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Math, uh, reading -- I have a, a, a decent memory, so -- and you know 00:14:00history's all about memory --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- and memorization and, and those kinds of things. But (throat-clearing) learning things (unintelligible) pretty easy. And, um, so, I (sigh) I don't wanna say "excelled," but, yeah, I guess so. (laughter)

HENDERSON: (laughter)

LIMES: For lack of a better term, academically, I excelled, and, uh, I was always at the top of the class, okay?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Um, and, uh right through, right through high school, but, uh, certainly in the, in the lower grades and, you know, uh, maybe I can explain why, you know, as I got older, I got involved in other things and --

HENDERSON: Yeah.

LIMES: -- my, my interest, uh (throat-clearing) kind of waned.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: And, uh mom and dad kind of, where you were, uh, twelve years old, she was right on top of you with your homework. When you got to be sixteen (throat-clearing) hopefully, she had planted enough to know that you, you'd do your homework yourself.

HENDERSON: Right. Right, right, right.

LIMES: All right? And it's not that I didn't, but, uh, I didn't buckle down as, as hard as I did in the early days and years.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: All right?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: With mom riding, you know, kind of, you know, really looking over your shoulders. And, and as -- And I, I believe she did this with, with all of us. I, I'm not a hundred percent sure, but, uh, as you get older, there, you became more and more and more independent --

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: -- in terms of that, okay? So, um, but as a, as a kid, I mean you, you 00:16:00sat there and she, she monitored, I mean, everything you did. Okay?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Ah, for example, she would be sitting here, doing Verna's hair, and I would sit on the floor right here and read.

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: And you missed a word, she'd tell you one time -- maybe, two times. The third time, the comb or her knuckle or --

HENDERSON: (laughter)

LIMES: All right? And she would tell you again, but you remembered that time.

(laughter)

LIMES: But you didn't wanna (laugh) -- All right?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: You get to that word again, you -- .

HENDERSON: (laughter)

LIMES: And, you, you, you know? But, uh, but it was all good. I mean she wasn't brutal or anything like that --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- but it was her method of reminding you, you know (pounding for emphasis) "House! House! House!" okay?

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: And then, so, and we learned.

HENDERSON: So you learned --

LIMES: Yeah (laughter) --

HENDERSON: -- because that's, that's a consistent story with, um, Vernie, with my mom is just so, across the years, that knuckle --

LIMES: Yeah.

HENDERSON: Like you get it once --

LIMES: Yeah!

HENDERSON: -- maybe twice, now you'd definitely --

LIMES: Yeah, you, you'd definitely wanna -- You gonna, you gonna get it (laugh) and the fourth time, you'll know that word.

HENDERSON: I know!

(laughter)

LIMES: So, so that, that kind of thing, and, and the homework checking, uh, you know, everything, um, she was, I guess young and vibrant and, and full of energy, uh, if you would, and, and able to do those things.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Um, so, you know -- And she kept up on it. She kept up with us, you know? Uh they weren't changing, um the educational process at that time, in terms of, of the manner in which they, they did the instructions. It was the, the five time table and the six, seven time table and, and that went on.

HENDERSON: Yep. Mm-hm.

LIMES: And, you know, so nowadays that new math and now even a newer math and --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- you know, you, we can't help our kids anymore, because of the, the change in, in the methods of, of doing things.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: But (throat-clearing) she was able to, to assist us and guide us and help us, in that sense, you know? Um, so, ah, as I got older, um, and, and, like I said, I learned a lot from Ferdie, uh, Verna and Sadie were always there, and, and, uh, Sadie was, you know, quite a bit older.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: And, I can, uh -- Just a little thing, Sadie went to school and she learned, uh -- I think she was taking a nursing course --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- and, uh, she learned that vinegar dissolves fish bones.

HENDERSON: (laughter) Okay.

LIMES: So you know this story coming (unintelligible) --

HENDERSON: So, I know -- I (laughter) --

LIMES: Okay. We had fish for dinner and, I don't know, I I believe I was eight and nine years -- eight years old, all right, and I got a fishbone stuck in my throat.

HENDERSON: Ah, Mm-hm.

LIMES: Sadie was ruling the roost, got the vinegar, poured me an eight-ounce of vinegar, "Drink it." Ah -- Kelly?

(laughter)

LIMES: Took me a long time to get back to vinegar again.

HENDERSON: I know!

(laughter)

HENDERSON: Did it work?

LIMES: Evidently.

HENDERSON: Yes!

LIMES: I'm, I'm sure --

HENDERSON: Yeah -- you're here --

LIMES: -- you know, I, I'm -- You know --

HENDERSON: -- you're here today.

LIMES: -- between, between that and, and bread and, you know, I don't know if I would have died if the little bone was lodged there or something, you know, but it was stick -- you know, it, it sticks, all right --

HENDERSON: Uh huh. Uh huh.

LIMES: -- so, I guess it did and then, and that, like I said, that and the bread 00:20:00and everything else, all the other remedies that, that they --

HENDERSON: I (unintelligible) (laughter)

LIMES: -- put on you. But, but I remember drinking that vinegar.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: (whew sound) So -- (laughter)

HENDERSON: I can't imagine drinking a glass of vinegar.

LIMES: Can you, can you imagine? Yeah! I'm, I'm, I mean, "Drink! Drink!" and you'd drink; take another couple of swallows. Now, they, I'm sure that they meant that you put the bone in the --

HENDERSON: (laughter)

LIMES: -- the, the -- You know what I mean?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: It would eventually dissolve.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: Not that it's gonna (unintelligible) --

HENDERSON: But not --

(laughter)

LIMES: Okay.

HENDERSON: (Unintelligible) --

LIMES: So --

HENDERSON: (laughter)

LIMES: But I survived it.

HENDERSON: Yes. Yes.

LIMES: You know? And, um, like I said, the, the, my oldest siblings were all so very supportive. Um, but I was, I was, uh, I don't know, maybe a little, a little different in the sense that, uh, maybe more exploratory, and, uh maybe a 00:21:00little more active. Uh, I started playing organized sports when I was eight years old --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- all right? Baseball and basketball. So I was getting around and these little P.A.L and Boys' Club and so on, uh, you go there and here and play and you meet different people and --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- you know, different ethnicities, and so on, depending on where you went in the city.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: And, uh, so I was involved in a lot of other things that my older brothers were not involved in, and my older sisters also. So, I, I got out more (throat-clearing) and got involved more in, uh, in, in the different groups and, and organizations like that.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Um and, uh as we move along in, in junior high school, I was certainly 00:22:00very active, playing sports -- My grades were still, uh, exceptional, if you would, or, or very, very good -- let me put it that way. And, uh what can I say? Um that's when I really got involved in, in doing other things, and when I say, "Doing other things," uh, scholastically and, and taking on different types of, of projects. The teachers at the, the junior high school, where I went, James Fenimore Cooper Junior High School, ah --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- were, uh, predominantly African-Americans.

HENDERSON: Really?

LIMES: Yeah, at that time.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: I, I shouldn't say "predominantly," but it was enough, probably close to 00:23:00fifty percent at the school were black teachers and, and with mom's involvement, uh, in the Parent-Teacher Association, and, uh, with my other siblings (throat-clearing) -- Rocky was the first graduating class from James Fenimore Cooper.

HENDERSON: Ahhhh --

LIMES: Okay? So, uh, and it was an all-boys' school, so --

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: Rocky and, uh, both went to, to Cooper, and teachers remember the name, you know, it's an odd name, "Limes" and, you know, so -- And by the time the little ones got there, you know, they were well-known, the Limes.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: So --

HENDERSON: And it was -- Was it always -- not always, but was it throughout the siblings' school career, was it always a boys' school?

LIMES: No, TJ, uh, was the first integrated class --

HENDERSON: Oh, okay.

LIMES: -- I think. Yeah, I think this was the first, first integrated class, uh, with boys and girls.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: And Sonia and Veronica went to Cooper --

HENDERSON: Okay, and that's what I, because I remembered --

LIMES: Yeah.

HENDERSON: -- mom mentioned it, and so I was thinking, "Oh, okay."

LIMES: Yeah. Yeah.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: So, uh, and, and when Verna and I, uh Perry, for the most part, uh, most of the schools, the junior high schools, they separated the boys from the girls.

HENDERSON: Okay.

LIMES: And, it's a, uh, I guess it's a, uh -- I don't know, I guess it's debatable, but at that point where the teenagers start to reach puberty and, and those kind of things --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- uh, they've found that separation sometimes is better -- and then there's arguments for the other way, so --

HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right.

LIMES: But that's a, that's another sub -- that's another topic (unintelligible) --

HENDERSON: (laughter) Mm-hm.

LIMES: But, uh, so, Sadie, Verna and I went to all, you know, boys' or girls' school, Rocky, Ferdie, yeah.

HENDERSON: Humm -- For junior high?

LIMES: For junior high.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. But elementary school was coed?

LIMES: Elementary was coed.

HENDERSON: And then high school was coed.

LIMES: Just the middle school was separate.

HENDERSON: Just the, just that middle section?

LIMES: Yeah. Yeah.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: And, um, you know, so -- In high school you're back together again. Uh, with the exception of -- Well, I think Rocky went to an all-boys' high school. He went to machine and metal trades, and at that time, it was, uh, that kind of, uh, thing where, uh -- Like he took a welding, and there's auto mechanics, those kinds of trades that were initiated at that particular high school, so --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: I'm pretty sure it was all boys.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: But, for the most part, high school was coed.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: Um, so, I was having a good time in, in junior high and like I said, spreading my wings and, and doing other things in, in the community and learning, uh, about, uh, things outside of the neighborhood and, and growing in 00:26:00that, in that sense. And, uh in the ninth grade, uh, 1956 (sigh) '57, 1957, I won an award. It's called a Hulan Jack award. Hulan Jack happened to be the first black Borough President of Manhattan.

HENDERSON: Wow. Mm-hm.

LIMES: Okay? One of the -- The first black Borough President in the City of New York, and it happened to be Manhattan. But it was a scholastic award and I won the scholastic award based on, uh, uh my teachers, um --

HENDERSON: At the end of the ninth grade year?

LIMES: Yeah.

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: Or was it during? I, I guess it was submitted, yeah, during, and, uh, I received the award at graduation.

HENDERSON: Ah -- Uh huh. Uh huh.

LIMES: Yeah. Um, uh -- And it was based on your academics and, and other, uh, 00:27:00social aspects in the community and those kinds of things, what you participated in. And by that time, I was playing basketball, running track and, and, um, playing baseball.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: You know, those kinds of things.

HENDERSON: Wow.

LIMES: So, um uh, yeah, I won that award and I was the valedictorian of my, uh, junior high school, uh, graduation. Uh, being an all-boy's school, we had, there was a large population. I don't remember the number, Kelly, but I know we had twenty-two, three and three classes --

HENDERSON: Oh, wow.

LIMES: -- so at least -- Let's just say minimally twenty-five kids. Okay? So, if we had that, at twenty classes, that would be five hundred kids, right?

HENDERSON: Right. Right. For a junior high school --

LIMES: Right. And that was one class. I mean that was my grade. That what graduated.

HENDERSON: Oh, that was just the --

LIMES: That was just the ninth grade.

HENDERSON: Goodness!

LIMES: You had the same thing for three grades. Okay?

HENDERSON: Yeah. Okay.

LIMES: So, yeah, it was -- Uh, I'm, I'm sure there were fifteen hundred kids in the school.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Yeah.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: You know. Um and the way they, uh, they did things back then those students who were academically proficient, they put us into four classes, so I was in nine, one, two, three or four. Okay?

HENDERSON: Okay.

LIMES: Those four classes, you took, uh, a different math, different English -- It's on a different level. Okay?

HENDERSON: Right. Right.

LIMES: Whereas, uh, I had algebra, the other students didn't. We took a language; we took a foreign language. And it started in the seventh grade. So you were in seven, one, two, three four, and that was based on your records out 00:29:00of junior high, you know. I mean out of elementary going into the seventh --

HENDERSON: So junior high started seven, seventh, eighth and ninth?

LIMES: Correct.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: At the time, it was seven, eighth and nine. Now, I think most middle schools are six, seven and eight.

HENDERSON: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

LIMES: (laughter) Okay?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: So it seven, eight, ninth grades.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Um, and, uh, like I said, the structure was, the first four classes you were in the, what they'd call the "language" classes; five through ten, eleven, you were okay; twelve through the end, you needed help. Okay?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: Um so twelve through the end, uh, uh, a lot of those students, their reading level was very low, you know, the math level was low, uh, so a lot of them would have -- let's just say on a daily basis, your, your daily classes -- 00:30:00If, if I had English or, or, let me -- Yeah. Let's say a language, you either took French or Spanish, okay? Two classes took English -- I mean French. Two classes took Spanish. Okay? And you had a couple of other classes that these guys down here didn't have, like music appreciation, where you learned the classics, Beethoven, Bach, Brahms, you know, the "Bs," and you had, uh, uh, art appreciation where you learned, uh, Picasso and you know --

HENDERSON: And the other students in lower level classes didn't have these things?

LIMES: Correct. They were not (unintelligible) --

HENDERSON: Huh.

LIMES: What they replaced it with was shop classes.

HENDERSON: Interesting.

LIMES: So they took sheet metal, they took woodwork, they took electrical shop (unintelligible) --

HENDERSON: So they were tracking everybody early.

LIMES: Yes.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Okay? Started in seventh grade.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Okay? And it's, it's not that there couldn't be a shift.

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: Okay? If the kids down here showed some proficiency, they moved them up and so on, so --

HENDERSON: Do you, do you know of -- Do you remember kids that are moving, that moved from that lower level --

LIMES: Yeah.

HENDERSON: -- to the upper level?

LIMES: It was very hard to break into the first four, but, certainly, from, let's say, sixteen into eight --

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: -- absolutely.

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: Yeah.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Because the first four, you started a language --

HENDERSON: Yeah.

LIMES: -- in seventh grade. So, now, if you could get into there in the ninth grade, you're missing two years of, of, of a language, which is, it's tough to make up --

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: -- and, uh, the different math.

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: You were not ready for algebra at -- You know.

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: So, basically, those students in seven, one, through seven, four, stayed there through graduation.

HENDERSON: And do you know of any students that moved in the seven, one to seven, four, out of those --

LIMES: Yeah.

HENDERSON: -- high --

LIMES: Yeah. Out of, they went to seven, five, seven, six.

HENDERSON: Right. Right.

LIMES: Yeah, because they just couldn't handle it or, or quote/unquote, you know --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: That's, uh, I guess, for the lack of a, a a more proficient, uh, uh, terminology, they just couldn't handle a language or they just couldn't handle the math or their reading level wasn't up to, to par.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: And when you can't read and understand and comprehend, it detracts from everything else.

HENDERSON: Right. Right.

LIMES: Okay? So a lot of it is just, you know, your understanding, your, your comprehension level. If you can't comprehend how this formula works, you're gonna, you're not gonna do the math. Okay?

HENDERSON: Right. Right. Um --

LIMES: So, um, that's basically where the, the breakdown would be. It would be in the, in the English comprehension, reading comprehension, and that would dictate, uh, everything else, you know?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: Um, and then just, uh, a good understanding of, of their foreign language and those kinds of things. And some of it could be based on, on, on the home environment where there was no structure, no leadership, no, you know, nobody caring, those kinds of things, also contributed to, to, uh, to that, you know? And I, I saw that where, um, kids' parents, you know, uh, just, and then -- We were blessed, you know, and we were not a latchkey kid, you know, and, and nothing wrong with being a latchkey kid, but --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: The parent had to take some time when they got home, and a lot of times that didn't happen, you know, where, um, kids would come home from school and they were in the street from, you know (coughing) -- excuse me -- from three 00:34:00o'clock until midnight. No homework, nobody supervising, you know, and those kinds of things.

HENDERSON: And why do you think that was?

(break in audio)

HENDERSON: Okay. So I asked why the, why you thought the young people were in the streets for six hours --

LIMES: Yeah, or whatever --

HENDERSON: -- or seven hours in the evening?

LIMES: Yeah. Um, I, I think it's, uh I think a big part of it is, is uh, economics and the level of education of the parents.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: A, a, a parent is, is a bricklayer and, and he feels like that's good enough, and he did, he's doing it with a, with a third-grade education or whatever, so he doesn't see the value of, of having his kid to put in that time.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: And it's an individual thing. I, I don't wanna categorize people like that, because there are people who, who were bricklayers and, and, uh, whatever their occupation was, or didn't have an education that, 00:35:00um that saw the value of an education. Let's take dad for (unintelligible) all right? My dad, your grandpa, okay? Um he had to stop work, uh, stop school at the sixth grade. It was a sixth-grade education, formal education. If you spoke to him, you would think that he was a college graduate because he read everything he got his hands on. He could talk to you about any subject, okay? But those are self-made people. Now if he didn't care, you know -- And, and what he had that the, the gifts and, and, and, uh uh you know, specialties that he was, was given, that God gave him, you know, uh, he was able to take and, and 00:36:00utilize and then still to pass that on, okay?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: (throat-clearing) He was an excellent tailor dry cleaning and so on. He knew that business. Ferdie went to uh, machine, uh, to, you know, to fashion industries for, for a tailor. That was something that he taught. Uh, I, I think every one of his sons can put hems in pants and things like that --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- so, so, so he didn't just sit on that and, and labor at it and so on, but he, he made it (coughing) -- excuse me -- his own, and passed that on --

HENDERSON: Yeah, he would --

LIMES: -- and, and taught us.

HENDERSON: For example, he would pull you all aside for, his boys, and teach you specific things.

LIMES: Um, not to pull you aside, but mom would take us shopping and, naturally, 00:37:00for them to hem your pants in the store was another buck or two. Okay?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: No, because somebody at home could do that.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: So, bring the pants home. Dad would put the pants on the ironing board. He showed the tailor's chalk. He -- All right, he, naturally, you put them on and he turned them up, pinned them, you know, so you learn as he does things for you and with you.

HENDERSON: Oh, oh -- Mm-hm.

LIMES: Okay? But it wasn't a, uh, it wasn't a formal session, like, "Come on, today, we gonna do this," kind of --

HENDERSON: Right. Right. So he would be doing it and y'all would be watching --

LIMES: And learning.

HENDERSON: -- and learning.

LIMES: Yeah. Mm-hm.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: And, and, you know, you, you ask questions, or he would say, "This is how you do this," or "This is how you do that," you know, and, and those kind of things.

HENDERSON: Now you mentioned his having a sixth grade education, but then taking it upon himself to read and expose himself and to learn more.

LIMES: Correct.

HENDERSON: What do you think -- What about him made him do that? Like, well, 00:38:00what about his personality or his character or just --

LIMES: Ah (sigh) -- He was the, he was the uh (whew) -- He was very caring, very understanding, and, um was always interested in helping, particularly, his kids.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Um, his dad died when he was four years old, so he didn't have a father in the house, all right, and that's the reason that he had to stop. His mother was uneducated, uh, so -- Long story about the family history, but his dad was (throat-clearing) -- I'll make it quick.

HENDERSON: Yeah, that's fine.

LIMES: His dad was, uh fell in love with this lady who was not of the same class structure, okay?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: And she was uneducated. Uh, her family was uneducated. His family was educated, okay?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: He had a couple of brothers with dad. They were all educated men. Okay? And he wanted to marry this lady and they didn't, you know, same social level, no. He did anyway. They basically put him out of the family.

HENDERSON: Oh, wow.

LIMES: Uh, his parents didn't come to his wedding.

HENDERSON: Oh!

LIMES: I think one of, one of his brothers, I think, came to his wedding, as I remember the stories coming down, and maybe Verna will know more, but, uh --

HENDERSON: She didn't mention it. And so who's, so -- Can you attach names to these people or --

LIMES: Oh, yeah. Okay.

HENDERSON: because we can say that we have -- I have more tape.

LIMES: Yeah.

HENDERSON: You know, that's, uh, that's fine.

LIMES: Um, well, my dad, James Limes, and he was actually James Limes, the 00:40:00second, uh, uh, yeah, uh, his father was James Limes, okay, and, um James Limes met Mary Vanderhurst, who is my grandmother. All right? And they got married. So the Limes, the Vanderhursts were uneducated slave, you know, right out of slavery, and, uh, my grandfather was, happened to be, uh, one of those slaves and, and his family were educated, okay?

HENDERSON: So James --

LIMES: James Limes, number one --

HENDERSON: -- came from an enslaved family --

LIMES: They were both, yeah --

HENDERSON: But they were educated?

LIMES: Correct.

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: All right? So, when he married Mary, all right, like I said, his family didn't participate in the wedding and so forth. He was ostracized from his family, okay?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: He happened to die at an age of four years old -- uh, when my dad was four years old --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- so -- now, and the family really is not gonna talk to my grandmother, okay?

HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right.

LIMES: Um, so I don't know my grandfather's folks on that side.

HENDERSON: Uh huh. Mm-hm.

LIMES: Okay? And my mother tried to keep in touch with some of them, um, and I can remember --

HENDERSON: Of the Limes?

LIMES: Yes. I was in the fifth grade and, uh we went to South Carolina for the summer and mom would always try to reach out and -- We went to a cousin somewhere or something and, uh they had, uh, a big farm, plantation, whatever, but, uh I got to pick a little cotton and I got, uh, to take a little tobacco, 00:42:00and, actually, took it back to school. And you know how when you go to school, "What did you do over the summer?" Well, I made this nice placard and pasted, uh, the cotton on there and wrote my story, you know, and the tobacco, put the leaves on, you know, so I, I had a super-project that year, man. (laughter) I was, I was in the, I was, you know, I was sharp that year, you know, right?

(laughter)

LIMES: So, uh (laughter) you know -- But, um, but that's about all I know of, of, of granddad's folks.

HENDERSON: That's interesting. I've never heard that story.

LIMES: Yeah. Mm-hm. And, uh -- Well, that year when we went south, uh (sigh) I'm trying to remember the -- I think, uh, I think it was 1952, I think that was 00:43:001952. I'm pretty sure. And, uh (sigh) Verna didn't go. My uncle Irvin had just bought a new car (unintelligible) uh, so -- But (throat-clearing) um, Sonia and Veronica were not born.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Okay?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Uh, so it was, I remember it was Perry, TJ, Terrell -- four of us -- went down, and, uh -- But, uh, that was, um, you know -- That was a, it was a good time.

HENDERSON: Now, can you talk more about your summers down there? because -- Did you go every summer? No?

LIMES: No. Didn't go every summer. And, uh uh I think I might have gone one more time after that, but, uh, again, the, we got into the thing where I was, uh, doing a lot of stuff, okay? I told you -- And that's when I really started playing baseball and, and those kinds of things, so my summers 00:44:00were, were full with other things. Even Boy Scouts, went to Boy Scout camp and, and those kinds of things. So, uh, I was involved in a lot of other stuff.

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: So, I didn't go south. All right? And, uh, Sonia and Veronica came along, you know, and, uh Verna, by 1958, she had got married.

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: Now, you see she was a, a, a big girl, a teenager and stuff and, you know, before she got married (unintelligible) those, those years so that she was in high school, she didn't go south anymore, you know.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: So, um (throat-clearing) ah, I was, you know -- That's, that's about the last I remember of, of going south, you know, for the summers. And, uh -- But -- 00:45:00I and -- What I do remember is, uh, you know, my cousins there -- I had a few cousins my age. There were, uh, three of us that were within six months of each other. Sam, who's my brother's, uh, my mother's brother, right under her. He's, he's one of fifteen.

HENDERSON: Oh, goodness.

LIMES: So Sam was in the middle there. He was, uh, my age. And then Roy, uh. You met Karen?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Her brother, her oldest brother. He's the oldest of the family.

HENDERSON: Oh, okay. Mm-hm.

LIMES: He's my age. Uh, I'm six months' older than Roy. Sam is six months older than me.

HENDERSON: Oh, I see. Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: Okay? So we hung out together. Those were my --

HENDERSON: (laugher)

LIMES: -- my first cousins and we rode bikes and did things (unintelligible) --

HENDERSON: And they lived in Georgetown?

LIMES: They lived in Georgetown

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Roy lived with my grandmother --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- and Sam lived down the block.

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: (coughing) So, so we, that was, that was our thing.

HENDERSON: (laughter)

LIMES: We hung out together, you know. (coughing)

HENDERSON: And was it strange? I mean were, um -- Um, what was I gonna say. Because you were a New Yorker, by that time --

LIMES: Correct.

HENDERSON: -- and you came down and, so -- I don't wanna -- How, how was the reaction there, the interaction?

LIMES: Um, well, uh (long pause) everything was, was very good. Um we got along great, sports wise, we, we played ball together. We were all probably equal at that time. Um, I think I was a little more advanced academically and, uh, uh, certainly, um more knowledgeable of world situations, if you would, and those kinds of things -- exposure.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: All right? (throat-clearing) Ah, for example, that year, uh Saturday morning, got up, gave us a few pennies to go to the movies, and we went to the movies and, uh in New York, Perry and I, you go to the movie, Saturday morning, man, you, open, they open the doors, you run in and run down front to get a, a seat down front and watch your cartoons.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: South Carolina, the times, still colored and whites, okay? And, uh, so we got to the movies, bought our popcorn and so on, and time to go in, we rush in and I'm going down front (throat-clearing) me and Perry --

HENDERSON: (laugh)

LIMES: Roy and Sam and Dee and, you know, the rest of the guys are going upstairs. And they, "Come on, man! No. We can't go down there." "Why? What? Huh?" So they told us that coloreds couldn't sit there. I said, "Come on."

HENDERSON: And no one had talked to you about that before that?

LIMES: No. None of the, none of the older, none of the parents, or my aunts, uncles or my mom -- nobody said anything.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Okay? I can't sit down there; I'm a Negro. "Perry, come on." And I had my popcorn -- I mean we were ready.

HENDERSON: (laughter)

LIMES: So we left, came home. And, uh -- Yeah, that was the last time --

HENDERSON: What was the reaction when you came home? Did anyone ask why you left?

LIMES: Oh, yeah, they, they did and, and they kind of, "Okay. Okay. Okay," and kind of accepted it and, and I, I don't know if, uh, they knew how to explain.

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: You know?

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: What, what the, the the proper procedures would be, you know what I mean?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: And, uh so I never saw that movie.

HENDERSON: Huh.

LIMES: Yeah. At least not in Georgetown.

HENDERSON: (laughter)

LIMES: (laughter) Okay?

HENDERSON: Do you remember what the movie was?

LIMES: I have no idea.

HENDERSON: (laughter)

LIMES: It was a Saturday morning, you know --

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: -- and it was just, uh, the guys and I'd been going to see cartoons. I don't remember what the, what the main feature was. I have no idea!

HENDERSON: How old were you?

LIMES: Nine.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. And so at that age, you said, "If I can't go down there, I'm just --

LIMES: That's right.

HENDERSON: -- gonna take my popcorn and go home."

LIMES: There you go, yeah.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: I was aware enough and, uh, astute enough that, uh (throat-clearing) I was not gonna tolerate that.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: I paid my money, you know, I can sit anywhere I want.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. And then did you have any other experiences like that in Georgetown that you recall, where you were kind of confronted with segregation?

LIMES: No.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: No. Because I think we were -- um, I don't wanna say shielded, but, uh 00:50:00(throat-clearing) -- And, yeah, shielded, okay? Um we played right around us, you know. Didn't venture far. Um, when we did go to the beach (throat-clearing) -- Georgetown is about, uh fifteen miles from Myrtle Beach, okay? We couldn't go to Myrtle Beach, okay? Blacks were not allowed on Myrtle Beach.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: And north of Myrtle Beach, it's called Atlantic Beach.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Okay. And that's was our beach, okay?

HENDERSON: Huh. Yeah. (laugh)

LIMES: Guess what Atlantic Beach is now? It's North Myrtle Beach, with beautiful condos and --

HENDERSON: Uh -- Nice. Mm-hm.

LIMES: (Unintelligible) -- But we went to Atlantic Beach. So when I say we were shielded, no, we, we knew and, and our parents knew, we don't go to this part, 00:51:00so they took us over here.

HENDERSON: Right. Right.

LIMES: Okay? That -- so shielded in that sense. All right? Now I didn't spend any time there as a teenager. Uh, certainly not as a young adult, uh, to, to, uh, where I could put my -- myself in, in any situations or, or those kinds of things, so --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. But you were there as a child for the summers. Now, that, now what you're saying reminds me of your best friend that you were talking about in New York --

LIMES: Right.

HENDERSON: -- who was white. And you mentioned his -- his name was Eddie?

LIMES: Eddie.

HENDERSON: Eddie.

LIMES: Eddie Tate.

HENDERSON: So you mentioned that Eddie's family moved into the neighborhood, which was Harlem and mostly black.

LIMES: Correct.

HENDERSON: And so what (laugh) so what was -- That's interesting. I've never heard -- Now, I hear about it now --

LIMES: Oh. Yeah.

HENDERSON: -- but what --

LIMES: It was a, a small portion of Harlem that Italians lived in.

HENDERSON: Oh.

LIMES: Okay? Now Eddie wasn't Italian, all right.

HENDERSON: (laugh) Mm-hm.

LIMES: I think he was Irish, okay? But, uh, all the way over on the east side, which actually is a part of Harlem. Harlem actually runs river to river, okay --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- in width. But, uh, on the extreme east side, uh, of Harlem, there were Italians, and Eddie was just say Second Avenue where, and over maybe some Italians, Eddie was one block this side. It was Third Avenue, and it put him into our school district.

HENDERSON: Ohhhh -- Uh huh.

LIMES: Okay?

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: And his mom was a single mom, with two boys, okay? So --

HENDERSON: And you never visited Eddie, and Eddie never came over to your house?

LIMES: No. We only, only in school, worked on projects together in school, but 00:53:00never, uh, visited one another. And, you know, he was, he was, he was a good classmate.

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: That's all I ever saw him as, you know?

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: We'd play together in the schoolyard or whatever. But, uh --

HENDERSON: And do you -- and did, just generally speaking, did the other children, who I'm assuming were also black, everybody just saw Eddie as a classmate.

LIMES: Correct.

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: Yeah, I would I don't, I don't remember anybody ever treating him or his brother any different because they were white. Now, because they were another little boy, yeah --

HENDERSON: Right. Right.

LIMES: Okay? You got into a scuffle, sure --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- but not because it was a white kid.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: Now, believe me when they -- when they came to school, they tested it, oh, ha, ho. Oh, yeah!

HENDERSON: Yeah.

LIMES: Oh, sure. Uh, and -- Uh, uh and, and maybe bullying is a, is a different, it's a different level now than it was back then, but, certainly, you had your, your, your tough guys and you had your, your, your, your weaker guys and so on.

HENDERSON: Right. Right.

LIMES: But it wasn't, uh (sigh) didn't seem to be rampant like it is now, and when I say rampant, uh, there wasn't any extortion to any great degree or --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Yeah, they would, uh, "Hey! Hey! You got a nickel?" you know, but it wasn't, uh (coughing) an everyday, pay-off kind of the thing --

HENDERSON: Right. Right.

LIMES: -- where they'd come by smack you on the head or something like that.

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: But not, you know -- So, yeah, he was tested, you know, and, and you move into a neighborhood and, you know, but he was just, uh, another kid, you know, he was in school.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

(interruption) (tape off briefly)

(return to interview)

HENDERSON: Okay. We were talking about Eddie.

LIMES: Oh. Eddie Tate, yeah, and --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- yeah, and, and, um yeah -- So, you know, like I said, he was, he was tested, but no big thing and, and actually, um, when we went to high school, I lost touch with him, so --

HENDERSON: Now talk about -- I'm glad you said that, because I wanted to know about your high school years.

LIMES: Okay.

HENDERSON: So, what was, what happened, because you were saying you were doing other things --

LIMES: High school was probably three of the best years of my life -- didn't realize it at the time, but --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. (laughter)

LIMES: -- in retrospect, okay? Uh, went to high school and Verna had gone to the same high school in front of me, so, ah, I knew some of the folks --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- and, uh, some of the, the senior guys who were looking at her, you know --

HENDERSON: (laughter) Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- looked favorably at me.

HENDERSON: Uh huh. Uh huh.

LIMES: Okay? So it was a, it was a, a good situation. But when I got to high 00:56:00school, uh, couple of things immediately happened. I went out for the track team, and the basketball team -- did both. So, that, that gym, that, that Verna and them talked about, you know, taking gym classes and so forth?

HENDERSON: Oh. (laughter)

LIMES: I never had to. If you were on a sports team, school --

HENDERSON: Oh, you didn't have to take PE?

LIMES: -- you were exempt.

HENDERSON: Oh, that's nice.

LIMES: Okay.

HENDERSON: That's makes sense.

LIMES: So I spent ah, half of a, my first semester in gym and, after that, soon as, soon as track season started -- see, track season starts, you know --

HENDERSON: In the spring?

LIMES: Yeah, and --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: No, in the winter, the, uh, indoor track season.

HENDERSON: Oh, okay. Oh, wow! Okay.

LIMES: Okay? So --

HENDERSON: I forgot this is up north.

LIMES: Yeah.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Two weeks I made the track team; that was my last gym class.

HENDERSON: (laughter)

LIMES: So, those of us who were on, on, uh school sports we took the attendance and those kinds of things, handed out the basketballs and the equipment (unintelligible) --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. (laughter)

LIMES: -- so I didn't have to --

HENDERSON: But you didn't have to actually (unintelligible) -- (laughter)

LIMES: And, uh, at our school, swimming was a part of the PE curriculum. The ladies swam clothed; the men swam nude.

HENDERSON: Really?

LIMES: So --

HENDERSON: What?

LIMES: (laugh)

HENDERSON: I'm like -- As a, as rule at the school?

LIMES: Ah --

HENDERSON: Or you could if you wanted to?

LIMES: You could, yeah. You didn't have to wear bathing suits.

HENDERSON: (laughter)

LIMES: Ugly but --

HENDERSON: (laughter)

LIMES: So I never was, uh, a part of that.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: But, um but getting back to, to the school and high school itself, um, 00:58:00so, ah, ah, a few of us were from, from my junior high school, and, um, I was the only one in, uh the special program, if you would. The special program was basically an acceleration of, uh, subjects, all right, where you did, ah English, you did two semesters in one.

HENDERSON: Okay, so let me understand this, because -- So a student could go to Seward Park and not test and get a general --

LIMES: Correct.

HENDERSON: -- diploma. And then a student could test to get an academic diploma, but then there's also the accelerated program.

LIMES: Correct.

HENDERSON: Okay, and then did you have to test to get into the accelerated program?

LIMES: Oh, yeah. That was the test, yeah.

HENDERSON: Oh, okay, so the test to get into the academic program would then 00:59:00indicate whether you were accelerated, or the academic --

LIMES: No, the, the --

HENDERSON: -- was the accelerated?

LIMES: -- test was the accelerated program.

HENDERSON: I see. I see.

LIMES: You could go there and, and just do an academic program --

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: -- with an academic diploma, yeah, but you weren't accelerated.

HENDERSON: Okay.

LIMES: Okay?

HENDERSON: So then, so was it, was it three different programs?

LIMES: Yes.

HENDERSON: Okay. All right.

LIMES: Yeah.

HENDERSON: Okay.

LIMES: Three different programs.

HENDERSON: Okay.

LIMES: And because of the acceleration, uh I, if I remember correctly, for an academic, a regular academic diploma, you had to take two, three-year sequences and three, two-year sequences, besides English and history.

HENDERSON: Umkay. Two, three --

LIMES: So -- And regular English and regular history, okay?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. I see.

LIMES: So you took, let's say Spanish or a language and math as your three-year sequences.

HENDERSON: Okay.

LIMES: Now you need three, two-year sequences.

HENDERSON: I see. Mm-hm.

LIMES: So, science, so you'd take biology, chemistry (unintelligible) --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Um in the accelerated portion (throat-clearing) you had to have (emphasis) three, three, three-year sequences, and four two-year sequences.

HENDERSON: Ohhh -- Okay.

LIMES: Now, your two-year sequences could be four years of science.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: Okay? Which, which I did, okay, because it's hard to find four different disciplines, all right. Um, but I took business, so I took accounting and 01:01:00bookkeeping as, as two-year sequences, all right, and I took science, and I took all four years of science.

HENDERSON: I see, right. Okay.

LIMES: So being, uh biology, earth science, chemistry, physics --

HENDERSON: And so what -- Uh, you, when you finished the accelerated program, what was different? What did you get, you know, uh, as far as the diploma was concerned?

LIMES: Didn't --

HENDERSON: Was it marked "accelerated?"

LIMES: Didn't look any different --

HENDERSON: Huh.

LIMES: -- but when you, ah, filled out your college applications, it was, that's where the difference was.

HENDERSON: Okay.

LIMES: It, it showed the, the difference and the number of courses that you --

HENDERSON: I see. So your transcript looked different?

LIMES: -- that you completed -- Yeah, the transcript was the --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- was the key.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Okay?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. And so you were doing this accelerated program on top of the sports that you were doing?

LIMES: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: Mm-hm.

HENDERSON: Um --

LIMES: (Unintelligible) --

HENDERSON: That sounds like a lot.

LIMES: Um (sigh) didn't really interfere. When I say it didn't really interfere, Kelly, it, it just, um -- The only difference that I really saw in, in, in this and the regular academics, was the amount of homework.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: It was your discipline, okay? That's really what it boiled down to, was you, and, and your discipline and, and time management, but, uh -- Another fellow went through the same program with me and played basketball and we went to practice together and, you know -- Um, we both did all right.

HENDERSON: Now why do you say that these were the best years?

LIMES: Um growth-wise, socially um family (long pause) --

HENDERSON: Can you talk more about those? What's the growth, family and social?

LIMES: Um, okay, my -- Growth, uh, I came into contact with, uh, so many different ethnicities and, and learned about, uh, Italian people, Jewish people and Chinese people. They were all a part of the school, and, and, so, talking to them and engaging with them and, and, and just interaction, just learning about that.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Um, I love museums. During my high school year, uh, I would take a Saturday sometimes and New York has plenty of museums, and, uh, where we grew up 01:04:00-- Hundred Sixteenth Street, between a Hundred Sixteenth Street and Fifth Avenue and Eighty-Eighth Street and Fifth Avenue, there were a half a dozen museums, some small, like the Museum of the City of New York.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Ah, quite a few other small museums and, culminating with the Guggenheim on, on Eighty-Eight Street, okay? And I would just walk and go in (coughing) spend a half hour in here, or a hour --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- you know, probably the next one down, and I was just walking.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: I would then walk through Central Park, all right, and, uh, on the other side at Eighty-First Street and Central Park West was the Museum of Natural History, okay? (cough) So, I, I, I did that, okay? Um I really got into music, into jazz, in my high school years, and, uh, so (throat-clearing) I, um, I 01:05:00started visiting, uh jazz clubs. Um I grew five inches in a year or in nine months or so --

HENDERSON: What? (laughter)

(laughter)

LIMES: I went from five-seven to five-eleven, or thereabout, five-six to five-eleven --

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: -- in, in six months. Really. And, uh so I was almost as tall as I am now. I was skinny, but, uh -- So, and then back then if you treated yourself right and, and acted right, you could slip into these places and slip in the corner and --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: You know, I wasn't drinking. But, uh, you -- you'd sit and listen to some good music.

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: See, I got into some places that, uh, I shouldn't have been.

HENDERSON: (laughter) Mm-hm.

LIMES: But, but that was, uh, you know, a part of my growth and, and socially, 01:06:00you know, uh, so, uh, I, I'm, I tell everybody I'm one of the few people who took advantage of New York --

HENDERSON: Yeah.

LIMES: -- uh, uh, socially. Ah, it's a -- You know, all it had to offer, so from music to to, to the museums to, uh, Broadway, you know, those kinds of things. And then, some of the, uh, the other things that I did that, that -- You know, I, I shot pool. I shot billiards. At fifteen, I won the citywide championships -- pocket billiards.

HENDERSON: Really?

LIMES: (laughter)

HENDERSON: What --

LIMES: As a, as a, you know, teenager and -- It had, um, you know, club representation - Boys Club, Children's Aid Society, and so on, so --

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: Yeah. So I, I, um, I was that good --

HENDERSON: Uh huh. Yeah.

LIMES: -- and, uh, and, um, then socially I had a great time (sound of motorcycle 01:07:00or loud vehicle) -- Uh , um -- I didn't -- Um, how can I say this? Have -- I dated a few ladies there, okay?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: And, uh, I was, I was pretty popular. Number one, that the sports makes you popular and, and so on. And, and, uh, I guess my personality and, and whatever, uh, uh -- I hung out with a good group of people, you know. Um, and, uh, and had a great time.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: So, socially, my, my life was full, you know, um, and, uh educationally, I had, uh I, I had a real good, solid education.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: Okay? And, uh, and then streetwise, you know, uh, when I'd go to the 01:08:00poolroom, when I started dating Barbara, ask her if she wanna go to the, the movies, and I'd have two dollars in my pocket. I'd go in the poolroom and come out with twenty-two, okay --

HENDERSON: (laughter)

LIMES: -- and go pick her up. You know, so -- So it was that kind of thing.

HENDERSON: And you got, you were how old again when you started dating?

LIMES: (laughter) I guess, uh, we were in high school, probably my senior year.

HENDERSON: (Unintelligible) okay.

LIMES: And, um, and I told you I started school ear --

HENDERSON: I was gonna say, so that was, uh, seven -- seventeen?

LIMES: (coughing) So I was -- Yeah. I, I'd just turned seventeen when I graduated.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Okay?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: I, I, I turned seventeen in April. I graduated in June.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Now what's interesting is when I talked to Aunt Vernie and she's talking about Seward Park and, like, like I said, she said that it was mostly white. When I talked to my mom, she said it was mostly Chinese. What did you look like? What did your school look like for you, because you were in the middle?

LIMES: Ah we had, uh, probably -- I would say probably fifty percent white, uh, Anglo-Saxon um, and that'd include our Italian, English and Irish, uh -- And then we had, we did have a large Chinese population. Um, and we had a large Jewish population.

HENDERSON: Humm --

LIMES: Um, and then African Americans.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: We had a few Hispanics. Um there was a, a small niche down near Seward, Pitt Street, and, uh, that, uh some projects there that uh, was predominately Hispanic, and, uh, that was a, a nice influence in, in, uh, in the school. And, 01:10:00uh those, those young men were, uh uh, gymnasts.

HENDERSON: Oh!

LIMES: Oh, man, they were (unintelligible) --

HENDERSON: Well, that's interesting.

LIMES: They were really, really good.

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: Well, there, there was Pitt Street Gym that catered to them --

HENDERSON: Ohhh --

LIMES: -- all right, and, and when I say gymnasts -- floor acrobatics and those kind of things. They were the only guys who could -- Uh, we had to do a rope climb. We had what they call PSAL tests. I don't know if you know that?

HENDERSON: We had something, I think like that, in Delaware. Mm-hm.

LIMES: Okay, and you had to be proficient in, you know, different, uh, things around the floor of the gym --

HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right, right, right.

LIMES: -- and rope-climbing was one.

HENDERSON: Right. (laugh) I remember that. It was horrible.

LIMES: Okay? Now -- Yeah.

(laughter)

LIMES: The rope-climb, you had to, uh -- There were three levels. You know, you'd climb up with your hands and feet, okay, hit the top and come down. Then, 01:11:00the second level was to go up with no feet, just pull, upper body, you know, pull yourself.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: The third was to go up in an "L" position. You sit on a floor, you put the rope through your legs and you hold your feet straight up and you had to pull up that way, keeping --

HENDERSON: Oh, goodness!

LIMES: -- your feet straight.

HENDERSON: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

LIMES: They were the only guys who could do that.

HENDERSON: (laughter)

LIMES: We had a few guys who could do that.

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: They were, they were Hispanic and from the Pitt Street Gym.

HENDERSON: Uh huh. (Unintelligible) -- And do you, do you remember where guys, particularly were from? Were they like where they Puerto Rican in particular or --

LIMES: Yeah, Puerto Rican.

HENDERSON: -- Dominican or -- Oh, okay.

LIMES: Puerto Rican.

HENDERSON: So they were -- Uh huh.

LIMES: Yeah, it was, uh, Puerto Rican influence, yeah.

HENDERSON: And it was just based on their living with this gym in their lives?

LIMES: Correct. Because (throat-clearing) lower Manhattan, um they called it 01:12:00"Alphabet City," some places still do, Avenue A, B, C and D, all right?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: And different groups lived at different places, all right? And then north and south, uh from, say, Second Street, Sixth Street and Avenue D down to Catherine Street and then from Catherine Street to Pitt Street --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: So (throat-clearing) there were different projects, sets of projects.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: So um, that's, that's where, you know, so all the blacks lived from Sixth Street and Avenue D down to Catherine Street, okay?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: And the, uh, the Hispanics lived from Catherine Street to Pitt Street.

HENDERSON: I see.

LIMES: Yeah. So, and the Chinese were further up and further in, in that alphabet, you know, Avenue A and First Avenue, Second Avenue --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: So, you know, and it was broken up that way. Now where Seward Park sat, there was Delancey and Essex, Ludlow and (unintelligible). That was the, the 01:13:00full blocks, and it was a huge school, huge!

HENDERSON: Yeah.

LIMES: A huge school!

HENDERSON: (Unintelligible) --

LIMES: 'Bout six thousand students.

HENDERSON: Wow!

LIMES: (laugh) Yeah.

HENDERSON: Six thousand students.

LIMES: Yeah. Yeah. because it was a seven story building, elevators and --

HENDERSON: And students could come from all over.

LIMES: All over the city.

HENDERSON: But would you say that a lot of students, particularly, came from the area or was it really --

LIMES: Yeah. Yeah.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: It was, uh -- The uptown group, which were kids from, say, my junior high school and oth -- other, a couple of other schools up in Harlem or, or, you know -- But, primarily, that whole southern part of Manhattan was where they, the population came.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Where you saw kids, uh, primarily come -- That, that segment of students who were in the special, uh, classes, they primarily were all outside of, uh, 01:14:00you know, the, the --

HENDERSON: You mean for the accelerated program?

LIMES: -- geographical -- Yeah, for the accelerated program.

HENDERSON: Oh, interesting.

LIMES: Yeah.

HENDERSON: Okay.

LIMES: It was primarily kids from outside of that region. Now there were some from inside, but, but I would venture to say that that program, it was probably seventy-five percent outside of the, the geographic region of the school.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: Yeah.

HENDERSON: Okay. That's interesting. And so the, the third part that you said made your high school years so great was home.

LIMES: Yeah. Um, um due to, due to some of my outside influences, I, I did a lot of talking with my dad, and I got to know my dad and his philosophies, his teaching, his guidance. Um --

HENDERSON: And when you say "due to outside influences," what does that mean?

LIMES: My social life, for example. Uh we, I, I played ball, right, so we go play basketball on a Friday night and then there was a, a, a social afterwards.

HENDERSON: Yeah.

LIMES: Okay? And, um, mom would say, you know, "All right. Be home at such-and-such," you know. (sigh) dad and I would have a talk --

HENDERSON: (laughter) Mm-hm.

LIMES: Uh, "Give me a little leeway." (throat-clearing) Um we'd have a party at one of the friend's house, you know, and, uh if I was a little late, mom would actually send dad. All right, "Tell Ron to come on home."

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: And he would come and, uh, knock on the door and the chaperone or the parent would, uh, answer the door and "Oh, hi, Mr. Limes," and, uh, "C'mon in." 01:16:00"No, no, no, no. Just tell Ron to come out for a minute." I would go out. He would say "You got a half-hour, all right?" So, instead of yanking me out, I could go in, schmooze, say my good-nights, get me a good-night kiss if necessary --

HENDERSON: (laughter)

LIMES: -- you know, those kind of things, and, and then, and he would wait for me downstairs.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: You know, he would wait outside the building, on the stoop or whatever.

HENDERSON: And what did that teach you? Like how did that influence you?

LIMES: Well, uh, it's um --

(interruption)

UNIDENTIFIED: "Cream and sugar?"

LIMES: "Yes, thank you." Uh, um, creamer, yeah. You know.

UNIDENTIFIED: No sugar?

LIMES: Yeah. One, one little sugar --

UNIDENTIFIED: Okay.

LIMES: With the hazelnut, yeah. Um the respect that he had for me as a person --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- and, um, was something that he didn't always get because his dad 01:17:00wasn't there.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: And I, I don't mean to say it was such a bad thing, but he would tell us sometimes that, um, he he wouldn't necessarily be allowed to, to respond or to, to give his side of the story, okay?

HENDERSON: In what situations?

LIMES: Whereas -- Um he, his, his mother would come home and, and he would hear, "Jero," - that's his middle name, and what they called him, "Jero did such and such and such," and she would reprimand him for that, not asking him why, when, what -- Okay?

HENDERSON: Uh huh. Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: He made it a point to ask all of his kids their side of the story.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: All right, so -- Um, and it was just the, the respect of, uh, you know -- 01:18:00It -- You're another person. Yeah, you're my kid and, and I'm responsible for you, and so on, but you're, you're a person, too, and you have feelings and, and -- So he never tried to embarrass me, to, to shame me in any way. Um he would actually give me his lunch money, you know, if I needed, uh, two dollars to go here or there -- that kind of thing, you know? So, uh, and, and, like I said, I think I was maybe his first child to, to be involved in so many outside activities, uh, where Rocky and, and Ferdie just hung out on the block in the neighborhood, and maybe the requirements and the resources were not, you know maybe as, as needy as mine. Um, certainly didn't have a whole lot of money, okay, as a family.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: And, um, so, you know, so when I say it, it, uh those kinds of things, they taught me, taught me how to, how to appreciate other people --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- how to respect over people, and, in turn, get that respect. Um so it, it was, uh you know, it, it, it made you look at yourself, too.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: So that, that was, it was a huge, huge part of my, uh, my understanding who I was, what I was about, through him.

HENDERSON: Tell me something else? Like something else that he -- In what other ways did he help you understand yourself?

LIMES: Um --

HENDERSON: Or him? Or the world? You know?

LIMES: Well, um, I, I, I think one of the things was is that, um I was in control of myself.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: All right, and he made me understand that. He made me understand that I, I could do what I needed to do or wanted to do, but there was also consequence. Every action has a reaction.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: All right. So with everything you do, there's, there's a consequence. And you choose. You have to choose what that is.

HENDERSON: How did he instill that?

LIMES: Um at, at sixteen, uh I asked him could I smoke.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: All right. I had been smoking. But, uh, part of that, uh, and understanding what, what he expected from me, expectations, be honest and those kinds of things, um so he granted me that and he took me to the poolroom and 01:21:00they used to sell cigarettes and stuff, candy outside, and, uh, bought me my first pack of cigarettes, quote/unquote, "first pack," first pack.

HENDERSON: (laughter)

LIMES: All right.

HENDERSON: Uh huh. Mm-hm.

LIMES: And, uh we stood there and lit up and he said --

HENDERSON: And he smoked?

LIMES: Oh, yeah.

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: Mm-hm. So he bought a pack and then he bought me my pack. We had a cigarette together, and we had a conversation. He said, "Now, you wanna smoke," he said, "I expect you to support your habit." He said, "I don't ever wanna see you bumming a cigarette from anybody. If you gonna do this, then you support it."

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Okay? So, that's what I'm saying. When you make a decision to do something, be prepared -- be prepared --

(end of first tape)

(second tape begins)

HENDERSON: So whatever you had to do to make that decision.

LIMES: Yeah, so when you, when you do that, when you make those decisions, be 01:22:00prepared, okay?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. And it sounds like, take ownership for it.

LIMES: That's what it is.

HENDERSON: Yeah.

LIMES: You know? And he said -- You know, the other thing that, the one thing I learned is that, uh, you, you really only have one thing in this life, and that's your word --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: And if you say you're gonna do something, do it.

HENDERSON: And so how did that, how did how was that instilled in you? As a -- Did you wanna get your coffee?

LIMES: No. She's (unintelligible) --

HENDERSON: Okay. She's bringing it. Okay.

LIMES: Yeah. (coughing) I, um I, I guess, from a, from a very young, young age um, I delivered newspapers, I shined shoes and so on, and you know, "It's, it's time to go get the papers."

HENDERSON: Now did any of your -- How old were you when you -- You said "from a very young age," so what (unintelligible) --

LIMES: I started when I was six years old.

HENDERSON: So (laughter) --

LIMES: Ferdie was, uh, my mentor -- All right? Ferdie actually started the paper route --

HENDERSON: Oh, okay.

LIMES: -- and so, and Sonia and Veronica did, actually delivered papers --

HENDERSON: Oh, really?

LIMES: Yeah.

HENDERSON: I didn't know that (laughter) I didn't know that.

LIMES: Yeah.

HENDERSON: So you all delivered papers from the, from small --

LIMES: Yeah.

HENDERSON: -- elementary school?

LIMES: Yeah, and they just passed down through the line of family.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Okay, now, when Sonia and Veronica did it, they got papers for a couple or two, three people (laughter) okay?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: Whereas Ferdie and I would go and buy fifty newspapers on Sunday morning and, and we had, we had customers in the buildings, man. Yeah.

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: Yeah. So --

HENDERSON: Uh huh. And then you all would deliver papers.

LIMES: Yeah, so (coughing) as, as time goes on, and you get older, you become more and more responsible for, for this you know, this activity. And, and so now you, you can't just lay in bed, because somebody is depending on you --

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: -- and you said that I'm going to do this.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: So the, you know -- So those kinds of things, you know?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. (Unintelligible) --

LIMES: Those kinds of things that, that without browbeating you, you, you're taught by actions and so on --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- and certainly his actions, uh, and -- To me, and maybe I'm a little prejudiced and I think I have the right to be, but --

HENDERSON: Yeah. That's fine. (laughter)

LIMES: -- I think they were probably impeccable.

HENDERSON: And so, why do you, why do you say that? Like tell me more about him.

LIMES: Well, um (throat-clearing) --

HENDERSON: because from, from mom and from, um, Vernie, I get, you know, kind of just one example of who, of his personality and everything like that and --

LIMES: Um -- Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

HENDERSON: -- it's, a lot of it is connected with his personality, but then also his understanding of what "ladies" should be --

LIMES: Okay.

HENDERSON: -- and so there was a, you know --

LIMES: Yeah.

HENDERSON: -- kind of a lot of that discussion. Um --

LIMES: Well, you know, we, we, we talked about, uh -- I don't know if you taped 01:25:00it at that time -- 'bout him, uh putting the fear of the God in TJ or, or, or --

HENDERSON: (laughter) I don't --

LIMES: (laughter) Okay --

HENDERSON: -- I don't know if I was taping --

(laughter)

LIMES: Okay. But the one thing in, in terms of what you said that, uh how a lady should be or, or that, well, his wife , first, your mother, second, if you ever said anything to her, he would take you out.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: And that's, to the best of my knowledge, that's the only time he's ever touched any of his kids. It's because they disrespected her --

HENDERSON: Her? Uh huh.

LIMES: Yeah. Okay? "That's my wife."

HENDERSON: Uh huh. Uh huh.

LIMES: "Don't you ever say anything to her." Okay? "You wanna talk? You wanna argue? You wanna cuss? Start cussing."

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. And you guys wouldn't --

LIMES: And that's what it told -- Ohhhh --

HENDERSON: -- cuss (unintelligible) --

(laughter)

HENDERSON: That's funny.

LIMES: That's why he told TJ, "Is you a man now?"

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: "You wanna fight?"

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: All right.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: (Unintelligible) -- "Don't say nothing to her. You got a beef, come to me. If I hear it and, and then maybe I can talk to her, if, if I think it's, it's worth, but don't, don't you (pounding for emphasis) don't you ever say anything."

HENDERSON: And so, and so what about his personality do you think was --

LIMES: Um kind, gentle, uh loving um -- If I, if I could, uh, try and, and sum him up, um he was always looking out for us, and when I say "us," his family, his wife and his kids.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Okay? And would do anything for us, period, bar none, anything. Uh never got to a point where he had to do anything illegal. I'm not sure that he would, um, but it, it never got to, to that point. None of his kids ever were involved criminally or anything like that, so, so I never saw any of that, okay? Um he, he had a, a very slow fuse. Um I've seen him pushed couple of times and, uh, one night, uh, we had a crazy person in the building and this, this person used to bother everybody in the building -- Betty, okay?

HENDERSON: Oh, a woman!

LIMES: Huh?

HENDERSON: A woman?

LIMES: Yeah. Yeah.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: She was, she was -- Anyway, she's in the courtyard one night, talking about dad and this and the family and so on. And (throat-clearing) I was a man, 01:28:00now, married. My mother-in-law, Barbara's mother, had an apartment across the court in one building. We lived in this building. The buildings were attached, but there was a courtyard in the middle.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: Betty lived on the third floor. We lived on the fourth floor. Okay? And Barbara's mother lived on the fifth floor in the other building.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: And I heard dad yell out the window, a few choice words --

HENDERSON: because you were living with your mother-in-law?

LIMES: I think we were visiting her.

HENDERSON: Oh, you were visiting her. Uh huh.

LIMES: Yeah.

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: I heard him yell out the window a few choice words to Betty.

HENDERSON: Ohhh --

LIMES: And he was coming down.

HENDERSON: (laughter)

LIMES: Kelly, I ran down five flights of stairs and up four. I think I set the world record.

HENDERSON: (laughter)

LIMES: And I met him at the door and he had the baseball bat in his hand.

HENDERSON: Oh, goodness!

LIMES: Oh, he was gonna hurt that woman.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Oh, yeah. He was gonna hurt her definitely. You know, and like I said, and this had been going on for years, so it -- You know?

HENDERSON: Yeah, why was she so --

LIMES: She's, she was crazy.

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: She was the kind of woman, for example, uh when Barbara was pregnant with Linda, everybody saw Barbara pregnant. Linda was born. Betty is, is saying, "I know that's her baby," talking about Barbara's mother, see. And I mean, so, she was --

HENDERSON: Okay. Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- she was unstable (unintelligible) --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: But that, that kind of thing, and she pushed everybody on the block.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: But dad was gonna hurt her so -- So, you know, he, he would overlook most things. And, and I don't know what it was that was said that night that, that that drove him to that point --

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: -- but I met him at the door and he had the baseball bat and he was gonna hurt her.

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: You know? So --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Um -- But, uh wouldn't hurt a fly, was, was gentle, would give you shirt off his back kind -- You know? And, like I said, uh, always, always wanted to to help us, and told us that he could leave one more dollar than his dad left him. That's what he wanted to leave for his kids. At least one more dollar than his dad left him. Okay?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: So, I, I told you that he was a self-taught man --

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: -- all right? Studied, studied, studied, and, uh I don't think they even had a G.E.D. back then, but, uh made himself eligible to -- he saw that um he 01:31:00could do something get a job that would provide for his family after he was gone --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- and that was working for the City.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: And I saw this man study, study, study, take the test -- civil service test -- pass it. He came, uh, uh, working for the, uh subway system, first a porter, studied again, became a token, you know, a clerk, the booth clerk, and, um so when he, when he did pass, it was, there was a pension that there was some money for --

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: You know, I, I set up money, to, to try and give Veronica and Sonia a college education and to provide mom with, you know -- So that's when I said I took on some of those responsibilities to do some of those things --

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: -- and, and, and helped them out, you know?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: So -- Uh, but that, to me, that, that's the kind of man who was not 01:32:00really doing something to, to say, "Look at me. Look at what I'm doing. I can do this," or, "I'm, I'm, I'm -- " And "I" was never in his vocabulary, you know?

HENDERSON: And why do you think he was that way?

LIMES: Kelly, I don't know. God makes us, uh, you know, and, and, and, maybe because of, uh, maybe because his dad died, maybe because he was, he was put under a, a situation where he had to, to help to provide for his mom and sister, and, and, maybe it built, uh, something in him to do that --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Um --

LIMES: -- all right, to, to be that nurturing and caring kind of individual.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Um you know, who -- I, I don't know that, uh -- You know, I'm sure our environment, uh plays a part in our, in our lives, um but there, there's so much 01:33:00outside of the environment, too. That, that, that innate, those innate traits that we have that, um, you know, uh, sometimes I -- I don't know. I, I, at least I can't explain them.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: Um, uh but, but, you know, we all have, have special gifts and we have special, uh, things that we we're blessed with and, and -- You know, some of it is, is just that, just that, uh you know -- That, maybe that was his calling, you know.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: So --

HENDERSON: (Unintelligible) --

LIMES: -- uh, that --

HENDERSON: Now, what about Nana?

LIMES: Um (long pause) good Christian woman.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Didn't need much.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Didn't need much. She never, was not, uh what'd you call it, uh? Let's 01:34:00see. What's the term I'm, I'm looking for where someone is, uh, needs to be showered with gifts and this and that --

HENDERSON: Oh, like not materialistic sort of?

LIMES: Yeah, yeah, not materialistic, uh -- Not at all. Um, and (long pause) I think, uh and it, it never bothered her, you know. She knew she didn't have and that was all right, because she had the love and she gave love. She loved her children; she loved her husband, and she got that in return --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- and, and that was enough for her.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: You know? And, and, she she was, she, she was magic with a dollar.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

(laughter)

LIMES: I'm telling you. And, and she could, she could feed you, uh for, for, for 01:35:00fifty cents.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

(break in tape)

HENDERSON: We were talking about Nana.

LIMES: Okay. Yeah, and I was saying that, you know, uh good Christian lady, really --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- um, and, and ah -- The word I was looking for was, she definitely was not high maintenance.

HENDERSON: (laugh) Oh, high maintenance, uh huh.

LIMES: Okay?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Um, and, and, like I said, it you, you never heard her say, "I don't have this," or, "I don't have that," material things.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: So those things, like I said --

HENDERSON: Would she say anything? What would she --

LIMES: Um, no, she -- I mean if, if we were to ask her for something --

HENDERSON: Oh, I see.

LIMES: -- um she would say, "I don't have it," or, or, you know --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: And, and we knew the situation. For example, sneakers, okay?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Now, it may sound like a, a little trivial thing, but Converse were six dollars, okay. What we called "skips," or, or a lesser brand, were three dollars.

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: Mom had a bunch of pairs to buy.

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: She couldn't afford the, the, the Converse.

HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right.

LIMES: Okay? So, when we got to an age -- and, and, again, this is the thing about the respect and (cough) and love and so on, never wanting to embarrass you and so on -- she would allow us -- I think I told you I sold papers --

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: -- shined shoes and so on.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: I could put up the other half for my sneakers. She'd give me the three dollars and I'd put the other three dollars and go and get the, the Converse.

HENDERSON: Get the sneaker -- Now, I was gonna ask you. So the money that you made during that time did -- was that just for you to keep --

LIMES: Yeah.

HENDERSON: -- and do what you wanted with?

LIMES: Uh huh.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Mm-hm. And, and I did things like, uh -- Once again, my, my first bicycle -- I wanted a bike, okay? And (unintelligible) folks couldn't afford it, got too many bikes to buy, okay? A, a bike shop, where we could go and rent bikes, "Tommy's Bike Shop," and I had picked out the bike, and I paid two dollars a week for it --

HENDERSON: Ah --

LIMES: Okay?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Came the day, uh, we wanted to go on a bike ride, the guys I didn't have the last two dollars. I'm sure it was probably dad's lunch money, but he gave me the last two dollars to go and get my bike, so I could ride (unintelligible) you know.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: So things like that. But, but, back to mom, she was, uh she was, uh an 01:38:00authoritarian. She, she, she didn't play. All right? And, uh but was so very proud of her kids, all of them, every one.

HENDERSON: How do you know that she was proud?

LIMES: She would talk about you, I mean, to, uh -- And put her kids up against anybody.

HENDERSON: Ah -- (laughter)

LIMES: I mean, you, you would think you were walking on water.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Um, but but when you, when you raise ten kids in Harlem, and, and have kids over a twenty-two year span -- I don't know if you know that, but --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Rocky was born in 1932, and Sonia in 1954, okay, and that's a full twenty-two years, because Rocky is January --

HENDERSON: (laughter)

LIMES: -- Sonia is --

HENDERSON: Is November.

LIMES: -- in November.

HENDERSON: I see. Mm-hm.

LIMES: Okay. So -- And, and when none of those kids, uh have ever gone to jail. 01:39:00All of them are educated to some degree or have completed high school (unintelligible) --

HENDERSON: Right. Right.

LIMES: (throat-clearing) Um and, and having one income you, you did some stuff.

HENDERSON: That's what -- So what -- I think in that, I just find that fascinating, because you talked earlier about the Limes' name being clean.

LIMES: Right.

HENDERSON: You know, in Harlem.

LIMES: Correct.

HENDERSON: So the Limes' name being clean, all of you guys every one have -- having gone to school, and from what it sounds like from having gone to high school and then having taught high school, the high schools that you guys attended were no joke.

LIMES: Correct.

HENDERSON: Like that was (laugh) that was what could easily, I think in some cases, a college level, just what, you know --

LIMES: Yeah.

HENDERSON: -- what, what's discussed in the high school, so it's no small thing 01:40:00that everyone finished high school --

LIMES: That's right.

HENDERSON: -- um, in that situation. So what was it about your parents?

LIMES: Um, I -- You know, um I think it was -- Well, part of it was the foundation and, and that was, uh, done primarily by mom.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: And I say, "primarily," because dad was working two, three jobs at a time --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- to try and feed us.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: And when you -- The, the type of work that he did, prior to going to, to, uh the City, uh, was basically piecemeal. I don't know if you know what a "presser" is in a, in a, you see them in a dry-cleaning establishment?

HENDERSON: Sort of, yeah.

LIMES: Well, the guy on this big machine pressing (makes the steam pressing noise) --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: He did that, and he was, he was very good at it.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: But dry-cleaning was also seasonal and when I say "seasonal," people don't get their clothes cleaned as much in the winter as they do in the summer.

HENDERSON: (Unintelligible) -- Why?

LIMES: Because they, they wear them longer, the heavier clothes, so --

HENDERSON: Oh, I see. Mm-hm.

LIMES: All right? So, uh dad would make nice, nice money in the, in the summer months, but in the winter months it was lean, I mean, real lean, it could get lean!

HENDERSON: And what --

(laughter)

LIMES: Okay? When you're getting paid by the piece --

HENDERSON: Uh huh. Oh! Piecework.

LIMES: -- and pieces don't come into the store --

HENDERSON: That's why it's called "piecework."

LIMES: That's it.

HENDERSON: I didn't know. I was just listening and I'm like, "Okay, piecework." I don't -- Okay, so you'd get paid by the piece of each --

LIMES: That's right. That's each garment.

HENDERSON: Ohhh --

LIMES: Yeah. And different garments paid different prices.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Okay? And like I said, dad was very good at what he did. In the summer, particularly, back then, women wore a lot of silk dresses.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: They'd see that the fibers and so on were not plentiful back then -- all 01:42:00of these new microfibers and the, those kind of things. So it was rayon/silk, nylon, you know, wool, cotton, okay?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: And, um, so women's, women's dresses were, were a big thing in the summer and they paid, they paid a lot, okay?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Um, but mom was, uh, she was, uh, like I said, not high maintenance, particularly for herself, not at all. Um, she was a, a (sigh) she was a teacher. She was -- And she taught on every level, and when I say, "every level," um when you left her house, you could run a household.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Okay? Bar none.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Clean, cook, shop whatever was necessary.

HENDERSON: The girls and the boys?

LIMES: Yes.

HENDERSON: Everyone could do it?

LIMES: That's right.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Everybody. Um (throat-clearing) I think uh, I had to be fifteen, sixteen, maybe maybe even younger -- I think about fifteen (unintelligible) I guess, and, uh mom ah, wanted to go south, wanted to go home.

HENDERSON: Humm --

LIMES: Verna was gone and, uh I was it. Ferdie was in the military --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- and, um they decided I could do it.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: I took --

HENDERSON: Nana wanted to go south or you wanted to go?

LIMES: Nana.

HENDERSON: Ohhh --

LIMES: And she took Sonia and Veronica.

HENDERSON: Oh!

LIMES: Okay?

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: (coughing) I took care of dad, Perry and TJ --

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: -- for the whole summer.

HENDERSON: Wow!

LIMES: (coughing) Cooked, cleaned -- Dad had clean underwear and clean shirt every day. You know, I mean, ironed (unintelligible) the whole bit.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: So when I say you could, uh, you know -- Dad did cook on, on the weekend, you know, but, um, but, yeah. So mom taught us -- Give you a little story. I wanted to go and play -- Uh, uh, I had practice, baseball practice Saturday morning, and I had chores to do, and one was to mop the kitchen floor, and, uh she wasn't feeling too good -- she was in the bed. So I came running in the bedroom, "Mom, can I, can I go now? Can I go?" She said, uh "Did you do everything?" I said, "Yes." She said, "You mopped the kitchen floor?" I say, "Yes, ma'am," and the one thing you didn't do was lie, so --

HENDERSON: (laughter) Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- because if she caught you in a lie, it just made things --

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: -- that much worse.

HENDERSON: Right. Right.

LIMES: So she started, "Ron, did you move this? Did you move that?" "No. No." She said, "Ron, go mop the kitchen floor."

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: I went and I mopped the kitchen floor, like it should have been done first.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: Came back, "Could I go now?" She asked the same questions, I gave affirmative answers --

HENDERSON: (laughter)

LIMES: -- this time (laugher) and, uh --

HENDERSON: And I'm sure she heard furniture moving. She heard things moving.

LIMES: Yeah.

HENDERSON: Uh huh. Mm-hm.

LIMES: So I went. And, and now there's a lesson there. It's the, the old adage, "Never time to do it right, but always time to do it over." And I got to baseball practice on time, you see? So if I had done it right the first time -- So, now, you know, I, that's a lesson I learned.

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: I don't do that anymore.

(laughter)

LIMES: It's not fun doing something two times, okay?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: So when I say she taught on all levels -- she taught you how to do this, how to do that, and, and maybe not herself, physically, but put you in a situation where you had to learn and, and to do things and, and to do things for yourself.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: So like I said, when I was, uh, fifteen -- I think I was fifteen (coughing) -- I took care of the family for the summer and, and, and, uh -- And what that does for you is that you're able to pass that on. Both of my kids -- When Ronnie went to college, he made money by showing the other kids or doing their laundry.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: They didn't know how to use the washing machine.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Can you imagine? So, you know, so those kinds of things.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: And as far as, uh education, well um it's just, you know, you got to 01:47:00start with the knuckles and the whole bit. But she was good; she was good. She didn't do anything for you, but taught you, so you learned to, to reason, you learned to, uh um -- And, and, once again, I don't know why, Kelly, or where but, uh I was the first one to ask for, uh, research books, resour -- resources, so --

HENDERSON: Wow.

LIMES: And, um mom bought a book a week --

HENDERSON: Oh!

LIMES: -- encyclopedia. Had it at the A & P --

HENDERSON: Uh huh. Mm-hm.

LIMES: Okay? And we had, bought a, they bought a credenza and the books were, you know, in -- That piece of furniture lasted forever.

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: I don't know, it might be still somewhere.

HENDERSON: (laughter)

LIMES: Have to ask Verna --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- what happened to the credenza. But those, those books were, you know, basically, uh, on, on my behalf and everybody in back of me used them.

HENDERSON: Uh huh. Mm-hm.

LIMES: You know? So, she did what she could, and like I said, she was, she was a magician with a dollar.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: All right. We, we'd eat meals and we'd talk about meals that we had, and we named them, you know. Uh, stupid potatoes --

HENDERSON: Yeah.

LIMES: -- is stewed potatoes, all right?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: Man, it wasn't nothing like stewed potatoes, you know. Get yourself stewed potatoes and a couple slices of buttered bread -- it was all over, see?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: So, um, she, she was a provider. She, she she didn't go out and physically bring in the dollar, but she provided what we needed --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- all right, and, and made it happen. She made she made it happen, everything we needed, you know --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- from the clothes on our back to the food on the table to, uh our education and, and, utmost, our spiritual needs okay? Not only did she send us to church, but took us to church, okay?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: So ah, she established that and then we went to Sunday School at nine o'clock and she came onto the service at eleven and we would be there and, you know, and Perry and I became altar boys in the church and, you know, that old --

HENDERSON: Now what church was this?

LIMES: It's Mount Zion AME Church.

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: And, uh (coughing)

HENDERSON: In Harlem?

LIMES: In Harlem.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Hundred and Sixteenth Street. When we first moved to, uh, Harlem there was another, uh, AME church, Metropolitan AME Church, which was, uh, up nearer mom's sister. You hearing us talking about Aunt Genevieve?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: All right. Aunt Genevieve was living in the projects at a Hundred 01:50:00Thirty-Second Street. Metropolitan Church was a Hundred Twenty-Seventh or a Hundred and Twenty-Eighth Street and Madison Avenue.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: But Mount Zion was right across the street, okay?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: So mom chose to go there and not to go all the way up to Metropolitan.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: And, um, so that's the church that we basically were raised in. And, uh um, baptized and, and so on in the church.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: So she gave us all of our needs, like I said. Uh, that's the church Rocky was married in, that's where he had his fiftieth, uh, re-marry, you know, when (unintelligible) --

HENDERSON: Ahhh -- Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- celebration of their fiftieth anniversary. Um, so that's, you know (throat-clearing) that's the kind of, of person she was -- nurturing, loving 01:51:00giving never asking for anything. Really. Never heard her or dad ask. Always giving.

HENDERSON: Now, what do you know about Nana's youth and growing up?

LIMES: Ah (sigh) not a whole lot. Just little tidbits. Um, she's, she's the second child.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Ah and from what I understand, I believe two kids were stillborn -- Well, she had --

HENDERSON: Oh.

LIMES: -- her Mama had a -- Well, I think one was stillborn and one was a miscarriage, but there were two pregnancies before Genevieve.

HENDERSON: (Unintelligible) --

LIMES: Okay? And then Genevieve is the oldest, mom is the second child. My grandfather wanted a boy. He didn't know if he was ever gonna have another kid, so he named her, Sam-mina. That's where her name comes from.

HENDERSON: Oh. Mm-hm.

LIMES: S, a, m mina -- Okay?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: Samenia. That's where her name comes from. Um (throat-clearing) from what I understand, for some reason -- at, at least the way mom told it -- uh, that Genevieve got away with murder --

HENDERSON: (laughter)

LIMES: -- and, and she had to do everything.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: So she was the cook, cleaner and, and so on, and Genevieve was the lazy person.

HENDERSON: (laughter)

LIMES: I (unintelligible) -- Uh, I, I can't verify that, but, uh you know -- Sound half true at least, okay?

(laughter)

LIMES: You know, maybe she stretched it a little, but, uh but as far as I know, that was it. And, um being the second child of ten, much like Aunt Sadie, Aunt Sadie you gotta take care of the little ones. And, uh like you hear Verna say she picked me up, and, and Sadie and -- Well, you know, Sadie is, uh, nine years 01:53:00older than me. Okay? Mom is that much older than her baby sisters, and she used to walk around with them on her hip and, and that kind of thing. So, uh she's, she's been, I, I, I know, uh doing that kind of thing and nurturing and teaching, uh, teaching them. Um, she was not a college graduate. At that time, and we're talking 1930, in, in the rural South, you could teach with a high school degree, okay?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: And that's what mom did, she taught with a high school diploma and -- She taught all grades. You know, they used to have the one -- one room school kind of thing and, um -- Her younger sister, Thedra -- you know Aunt Thedra? -- uh, she was the first to go to college, okay, because none of the boys went to 01:54:00college, all right.

HENDERSON: Um --

LIMES: But, uh, Aunt Thedra, and then the two baby girls, uh Sister and Theopa, they were all college graduates and teachers.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Okay? So, mom has been a teacher and then, uh, she got married and -- You know, it was, uh, started having a baby and, and so on, and dad ended that sort of, sort of (unintelligible) I think. I don't know how, how long she taught in this, in South Carolina. I don't remem -- I don't remember.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: And, and I'm sure, I don't know, maybe Verna can, can answer that one for you, but, but, uh -- But that's, that was her personality, always, uh -- And, and, but never never harshly, and when I say "harshly," yeah, she knuckled us in the head and that kind of thing, but when I say "harshly," never pushing and, 01:55:00and -- maybe I'm, I'm sorry she didn't push a little bit, because, uh, I think I told you as, as we got older, the strings got looser and so on. And, and we had more independence and so on, and, and going through high school, uh, I probably could have done a lot better, had I been pushed a little bit.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Okay? And she didn't do that. I mean, uh, I, I got through and I got through fine and got through with flying colors, but, um it kind of stopped there, okay?

And I had opportunities, but uh didn't take advantage of them. And, uh -- maybe, you know, life comes along, you know, got married, kids, family, and then I go back to school, when I could have gone in the first place, okay?

HENDERSON: Now why do you think she, why do you think she didn't push?

LIMES: You know, I I don't know. Um (long pause) maybe, maybe, it's, it's what we see. Uh, and, and none of her brothers went to college. My two older brothers went to military out of high school, okay? Um so maybe it was a a different thing for men, how you treat men and women --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- those kinds of things.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Um --

LIMES: So, uh, as opposed to the educator, maybe you're a true hunter, you know, hunter/gatherer type of thing. Yet, on the other hand, her baby sisters, at this point, were both married to educators.

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: Okay. Um, you know, the Taylors and, and the Witherspoons, you know of them?

HENDERSON: Um -- Mm-hm.

LIMES: Okay. So I, I, I'm not sure why she takes the foot off the pedal, all right? Um I can't say. I, I don't know, I don't know the real answer to that, but, but certainly she takes the foot off the pedal.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: And she even took the foot off the pedal more for, even, TJ than for me.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: And, particularly TJ, you know.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: So, uh, and you'll hear his story, but, you know (coughing) I think she -- and I don't wanna say grew weary um certainly I guess over the span of years, times change outlooks change you know, uh -- Certainly by that time, uh, you 01:58:00know Dad wasn't there uh, so, I, I'm not, I'm not a hundred percent sure why.

HENDERSON: Now do you think that she took the foot off of the pedal for the girls and the boys or the boys, in particular?

LIMES: Ah the boys in particular and the girls in a different way, maybe.

HENDERSON: How do you mean?

LIMES: Um there was nobody for Sonia and Veronica to mentor, whereas Sadie and Verna had younger siblings to, to look after. So there was a different relationship there, where Sadie and Verna, "You gotta do this. You gotta do that. Take care of Sonia. Do this. Do that." Terrell, you know about? All right. So there was a different requirement for Verna and Sadie, as opposed to Veronica 01:59:00and Sonia.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: So so that's a, a, a difference in, in the way, I think she treated them, okay? Ah for the, for the male side, I, I, I don't know. I don't know what her, her reasons are but, certainly, uh -- I don't know if you know, but your Uncle Perry is classified a genius, you know?

HENDERSON: I've heard --

LIMES: He, he, he --

HENDERSON: -- but only recently.

LIMES: Oh, okay.

HENDERSON: Like, oh, starting this project. This is the first time that I've heard --

LIMES: Okay. Yeah, he, uh, I believe his IQ is tested out at 142.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: Okay? Uh, certainly I was never that high --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- but, but, uh -- And he did go to one of those schools that I mentioned in, in New York that were testing schools. He went to Brooklyn Tech.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Okay? So he was a bright, bright guy. He's a bright guy. Um but, uh so 02:00:00for -- And Perry's only two years younger. So, for myself and Perry, I don't know what her expectations were, and why she let up off the pedal and, and -- You know, I, I can't explain it. But, uh you know, uh we both did all right and, and went back to school afterwards and, and those kind of things, you know. That's another part of my, my life, but, uh, just -- When you when you start to, uh raise a family work a full-time job and go to school full-time, carry a full load, four nights a week, six to ten, full-time job.

HENDERSON: That's a lot.

LIMES: Well, come on out, baby.

HENDERSON: Oh.

(interruption)

LIMES: Um, so, you know, so when I look back at things, you know, those are some of the things I look back at. Don't regret any of my life at all. However, you know, you, everybody looks back and say, "You know, what would happen if I'd done this? What would happen if I'd done that?"

HENDERSON: Right. Could you talk more about -- because you mentioned the opportunities straight out of high school --

LIMES: Opportunity. When I, uh, when I graduated from high school, uh my aunts, uh, uh, Aunt Theopa was my godmother and I could have, uh, gone to South Carolina lived with her and gone to, uh Benedict.

HENDERSON: Oh, okay. Mm-hm.

LIMES: Okay? And, uh, been a resident and, and -- They had the resources to, uh to fund my education.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: Ron was too smart.

HENDERSON: (laughter) Mm-hm.

LIMES: So, so and then you wind up doing what I said, you know? I knocked around for, for a few years, and when I say "knocked around," um (throat-clearing) -- Naturally, mom said, "You gotta, you gotta do something." So I, I got a good job.

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: I was, I was at Citicorp, man, and did great. The first black in technology, you know, data processing at the time --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- and, and doing well, doing well --

HENDERSON: At Citicorp.

LIMES: Citicorp.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: 1961, okay? And, uh, did, did good, you know, doing good, but then you, you, you're on this corporate march and requirements change, so now I gotta get some education. (throat-clearing)

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: There you go.

HENDERSON: So, we -- because I had this same conversation with mom, because it, she was talking about coming out of high school and going to work at Merrill Lynch.

LIMES: Mm-hm.

HENDERSON: Yeah. And I was, and I said, "How can you do that?" because here, 02:03:00nowadays, you can't go from high school into banking the way that she described it, but she did the same thing. So you went from high school --

LIMES: Yes. Correct.

HENDERSON: -- into technology?

LIMES: My first job, I went in as a bookkeeper, okay, Citicorp.

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: And (throat-clearing) computers were starting to, to take over in, in in the corporate world and, uh, so ah, one day a, a memo came around and I petitioned and, and I was accepted into, into data processing.

HENDERSON: Um --

LIMES: I was in on the first part of, uh the conversion of bookkeeping to automation from check-processing.

HENDERSON: And what year was that?

LIMES: 1961.

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: Mm-hm. I started as a bookkeeper in February, and I started in February, 02:04:00and by, uh September, October, I was in data processing.

HENDERSON: Huh.

LIMES: But, yeah --

HENDERSON: That was fast.

LIMES: Yeah.

HENDERSON: (laughter) Mm-hm.

LIMES: So, um (throat-clearing) -- And it's, it's, it's been a run since then, you know?

HENDERSON: And then how long -- You said that, that, uh, requirements changed.

LIMES: Yeah, as, as you -- Well, uh, I worked for Citicorp, my first stint there, uh for three years or so, and then I went to Pan Am --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- and a guy from Pan Am, when I was working there, uh, we had a consultant in and, uh he, he saw something in me. He said, "You know," he said, "You willing to, to look at this and -- " He had a friend who was, uh, the 02:05:00person at, of data processing at Standard and Poor's.

HENDERSON: Oh, okay.

LIMES: He said, "You need to, to go and see this person."

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: And he set up the interview and I went. Penny Canclidus (phonetic), she hired me.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Okay. And ah, and now I'm hired into a, a mid-management position, or say, lower management, let me put it that way.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: (coughing) And that was one of the, the catapults in my, in my career, because then I, I went into true programming and, and so on, and, uh took some courses and, and, now, I need that degree to, to further, all right? And I did some stuff at Standard and Poor's and, and learned a whole lot and, uh -- Back then, the network of, of, of data processers were, was small --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- and everybody, you knew a lot of people and word got around. And, believe it or not, the average stay at a job in 1967 was nine months, because you could --

HENDERSON: Wow.

LIMES: I shouldn't say -- Maybe it was the average, I don't know. But people would, would switch jobs every nine months, because it was, technology was now growing and moving --

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: -- that you could earn more and more dollars.

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: You could beat the, you could make a two thousand, five thousand dollar leap every time you, you know, in salary increases --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- so, um that's, that's what happened. And, uh, somebody said, "Hey," you know, "This company is a start-up, now." We were going from -- I was going from Standard and Poor's. Somebody said, "Hey North American Rockwell," the 02:07:00airplane --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: The CEO was having lunch with the CEO of Merrill Lynch. Stock market at the time was booming, 1969. I mean, going crazy. And, uh said if you can put a man on the moon, why can't you solve my back office problems. Okay? Because, uh, Rockwell had just built a, their lunar module and they'd landed on the moon, okay?

HENDERSON: (laugh) Mm-hm.

LIMES: Stock market was so busy, they were closed on Wednesday afternoon to catch up with the paperwork.

HENDERSON: Ohhh --

LIMES: And, then, on the weekend, the process, Wednesday morning, Fridays, Thursday, Friday, okay?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: They formed the company North American Rockwell Information Systems, subsidiary of North American Rockwell, came east, staffed it. I was selected.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: I worked on the first project to automate the stock market.

HENDERSON: Oh, wow.

LIMES: 1969.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Okay? OMAR, Order, Match and Retrieve it. So the buy side and sell side, you matched them.

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: Okay?

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: And processed that.

HENDERSON: Wow.

LIMES: 1969.

HENDERSON: And so when is it -- because you mentioned full-time job, full load at school --

LIMES: Oh.

HENDERSON: -- when was that happening?

LIMES: That didn't happen until, uh I went back to Citicorp in 1975.

HENDERSON: So this wasn't when you were like the first group for the automated site?

LIMES: No.

HENDERSON: You were still doing that?

LIMES: Yeah.

HENDERSON: Okay.

LIMES: And that was based on your technological abilities, okay --

HENDERSON: Uh huh. Uh huh.

LIMES: -- and your resume. Okay? So now I go back to, to Citicorp, 1975, and now I'm truly an Assistant Manager, I'm -- You know? So now to make things happen, 02:09:00now they looking at you and (pounding for emphasis) and looking at what's your educational background --

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: -- and leadership and those kinds of things.

HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right.

LIMES: So I went back to NYU.

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: And that's when it -- 1975, '76, '77, okay?

HENDERSON: And so, so what did you finish with at NYU? I mean did you, were you there taking classes, or were you there working toward a degree?

LIMES: I was working toward a degree.

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: I got my associates and well into my bachelors. I didn't complete my bachelors.

HENDERSON: Uh huh. So what was your associates in? What were you --

LIMES: Finance.

HENDERSON: Ahhhh -- I see.

LIMES: Because at City Corps --

(break in audio)

HENDERSON: Okay. (Unintelligible) --

LIMES: So, I'm working with Phil Shivoni and, and I'm doing the programming and he's doing the financial analyst piece.

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: And I say, "I could marry these things, and do both jobs."

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Make myself that much more --

HENDERSON: Marketable --

LIMES: Yeah, okay?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: Ah, we worked on the piece -- I was working for the card products division, and we worked on a piece that, uh, when they first starting charging, 02:10:00service charges for cards, monthly service charges --

HENDERSON: (laughter)

LIMES: Believe it or not.

HENDERSON: Do we have you, you guys to thank for that.

LIMES: (laughter)

HENDERSON: Thank you. I appreciate it. That's great. (laughter)

LIMES: (Unintelligible) (laughter)

HENDERSON: That's good.

LIMES: We instituted a fifty-cent service charge per month.

HENDERSON: Thank you.

(laughter)

HENDERSON: I didn't know. There you have it. I had no idea.

LIMES: Yeah. Yeah, yeah -- My --

HENDERSON: My -- In my own family.

LIMES: Yeah.

HENDERSON: Who knew?

LIMES: So, uh, but that's when that, that started, I mean and, uh --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Yeah, so it was good.

HENDERSON: Now how do you think -- because this might be a strange question, but how do you think what you were taught by your parents, how do you think that that affected your work life as an adult, because in the '70s, you're, this is a long time from being at home. Like now you are an adult --

LIMES: Right.

HENDERSON: -- with your own family?

LIMES: Well, uh 'member I told you that dad was improving himself, so that he could --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- help his family more? That's how I saw it.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: By this time, my kids now are teens or pre-teens, okay? In 1977, I bought a house, because, uh, Barbara and I were just paying rent and getting no equity into nothing.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: So, we started, you know, establishing that and doing that and, and just taking a page out of dad's book. If I could leave him, uh, uh, two dollars, because dad left me a dollar, and I leave him two dollars, I've done something, okay.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: So, that whole thing got me on, on, on that road -- And, and the, the, the want and the need to do better. All right? The better I do, the better they do.

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: Okay?

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: So, uh that's, that's what that, that teaching was, okay, and, and that's 02:12:00what mom and dad told me. On top of that um, my steadfastness. You know, to stay with something or, or to, to, to commit to something. Kelly, I've worked jobs for five years and not take a day off.

HENDERSON: That doesn't seem healthy.

LIMES: Okay?

HENDERSON: Yeah. (laughter) (unintelligible) --

LIMES: I mean, normal weekends and, and, and --

HENDERSON: Oh, oh, oh.

LIMES: Oh. Oh, no, no, no, no --

HENDERSON: Okay. (laughter)

LIMES: No, no, nor -- normal weekends and, and holidays, vacation --

HENDERSON: Right, right, right, right.

LIMES: -- but to call in sick --

HENDERSON: Uh huh. Mm-hm.

LIMES: Yeah, you never call in sick. Work overtime. Got up every day, went to work every day. Every day! So --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Yeah. So, those kinds of things. Level of commitment and those things, that's, you know -- And wanting for, at this point, now, Ron and Linda, you know, I need to, I need to do something for them.

HENDERSON: Now let me ask this very specific, do you -- The -- What you're 02:13:00talking about, kind of these qualities of steadfastness and wanting to improve yourself and moving forward, do you see those as functions of growing up in your particular household, or growing up in the time, or the community that you did?

LIMES: Starts with your household. Secondly, the time, the time was huge in in me. The time I grew up, some of my most formidable years and I call it, "The Decade of the Sixties." Okay? I graduated high school in 1960. Okay? And, uh, to 1970 was some of the most dynamic times in this country. We had, uh, four assassinations, okay, starting with President Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X and Robert Kennedy. Okay? Um we had, uh the, the, the love fests, uh, 02:14:00Woodstock. We had the Watts Riots. We had, uh -- I mean there were all kinds of things going on. And we were all a part of it, okay? Um, so that was, that was a very dynamic, uh, uh, decade, and Barbara and I were, were young, newlyweds.

HENDERSON: Yeah, you were young, uh huh.

LIMES: Got married in 1963, two young kids. '63 and '67, okay. So that was a, a very formidable (sic, formative?) time in, in our, in our lives. You know? So, certainly, the foundation started at home, all right, with those things that we talked about, the teachings and, and so on from mom and dad. All right? And then what we, we actually lived through that, that decade, being a young family, 02:15:00staying together, holding together, living through certain areas and, and we know the, the segregation, the, the suppression that was, uh, put on us and, and those kinds of things, and yet trying to advance in that, in that environment.

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: Okay? So, uh, and, and where else, a better place can you do that, but in New York.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: So, so, certainly, the, the time period and then the, the geographic location, also. I'm sure it would have probably been different in Selma, Alabama, or, uh --

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: -- you know, Montgomery, Alabama, or --

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: -- wherever. Okay?

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: But, uh, because New York and, and the, the resources and things that were available there, um, I'm sure it played a big, big role. (throat-clearing)

HENDERSON: And so you said that you all were with the sixties and, and, um uh, 02:16:00you were saying that you were directly involved in the goings-on of the time. What do you -- What's an example of being directly involved?

LIMES: Oh, well, um Barbara was pregnant with Linda, so I didn't go to the March on Washington in 1963, but, uh in, in New York, in the, in the corporate world, um, it was I, I shouldn't say "well-documented," but it was well-known that you had to be two times as good as the next person in order to, to advance.

HENDERSON: If you were black?

LIMES: Correct.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: And, uh, so, just fighting through those struggles and, and, and being a, a part of that, that, that corporate world, all right, and, and making, making some semblance of advances, all right.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Um uh, how can I specifically pull out an incident? Uh (sigh) well, um, the incident where I was recommended to, to, to Standard and Poor's, okay. Um I could have, I was working at sa -- at, at Pam Am, and I could have still been wallowing there, had not what I did -- Um, we were putting together a a system for reservation call Pam-a-Map (phonetic) and which we did, and it was the first reservation received from Russia to, to someone to make reservations on Pam Am. Okay? But there was a, an adjunct computer -- now this was all done on IBM computers. There was an adjunct computer controlled data that did a little piece 02:18:00of stuff over here, and the guys didn't wanna touch it, because they were, "Big Blue" was the whole thing.

HENDERSON: (laugh) Mm-hm.

LIMES: I said, "I'll do it." I went and did it and that's where I met Joe who recommended me to Standard and Poor's.

HENDERSON: Oh! Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: Okay? So, all of a sudden -- Now, I'm gonna fast forward -- that was 1967 -- I'm gonna fast forward to1975 when I went back to Citicorp, I installed the first controlled data equipment in Citicorp.

HENDERSON: Oh, okay.

LIMES: I was quoted, uh, touted to be one of the top three programmers on controlled data equipment on the east coast of the United States.

HENDERSON: Wow!

LIMES: So, you see how those things happened.

HENDERSON: They're connected. Now, did you -- Is it -- Is that a function, among other things, of your -- unding your -- understanding yourself as a black person, and "I need to be better."

LIMES: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. You, you definitely, uh see that --

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: -- and, um -- There were a couple of guys who were in data processing, Citicorp, when I was there in my first stint. One guy, Dick Meyer and I'll use him. From when I go back in 1975, Dick is still there, but he's now a manager in data processing, all right? And I'm coming back in the door. And I catch up with Dick, okay. I was better than him back then, and I'm better than him here, okay?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Okay?

LIMES: Ah, we became pretty decent friends. Um, because he realized that, "Hey, this time, these twelve years that had passed or ten years, it's a different 02:20:00world, and this guy knows what he's doing." You know?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: And he could have wound up working for me --

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: -- as, as, you know -- But, as a result, we both reported to the same, the same guy, but --

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: -- but we became decent, decent friends.

HENDERSON: And you, are -- Were you in, in a different jobs as you were, um, moving and transitioning, are you finding yourself to be one of very few black people or were there -- or I could say "people of color," not necessarily black people only?

LIMES: Um, always have been.

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: Yeah.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Um, throughout, throughout my career.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Mm-hm. One of, uh -- In, in the various positions that I've had, yeah.

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: Yeah, at, uh, for example in Manufacturers Hanover, um I was the first 02:21:00black manager in, in data processing. Uh that was 1983.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: You know. So, and when I say a "manager," I'm talking an officer in the corporation, okay?

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: So, uh, there's a, there's a -- You know, people hear the word "manager," "Well, everybody's a manager."

HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right.

LIMES: But, you know, but, no. Manager at Manufacturers Hanover, you were an officer in the corporation --

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: -- and you were treated different, because you were on a different level, so --

HENDERSON: Right. Right. Now, when you were at NYU, when you were doing your coursework there --

LIMES: Mm-hm.

HENDERSON: -- um, talk about the your experience there as you were doing that.

LIMES: Um I can only say that I, I really wish that I had done it during the day. I'm sure the, the campus environment was a lot different. But here, I'm, 02:22:00I'm leaving work driving to, to school, all right, getting there and, uh , "All right, tonight my cour -- my class is in the Green Building or Green Street," and then it's over here and there, and I didn't, while I enjoyed it, uh, it was good and I met a, a, a lot of good people -- and most of the folks, uh, were, uh adults and not, uh, not folks out of high school, to, you know, between and eighteen and twenty-five (unintelligible) -- Uh, there were, I, I'd guess probably seventy-five, twenty-five, being, uh, folks thirty or so.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: So, folks like myself who didn't listen to their self when, when they should have.

HENDERSON: (laughter)

LIMES: But, um you know, so, it was, while it was a, a good experience, um like 02:23:00I said, I don't really regret anything in life, but, uh, you know, sometimes you say, "Yeah, I wonder what would have happened?" and, "Would it have been more enjoyable?" so --

HENDERSON: But you didn't find -- Like did you, when you were in NYU, did you feel like, in the classroom or when you were doing work for the classroom, did you, did you find kind of your old academic practice coming back? Did it feel challenging being, doing the coursework, or were you find doing the coursework?

LIMES: Ah -- I was fine. I mean, naturally challenged to the point of, uh, just something being new to you and, and you're, you're learning and experiencing new stuff, but, uh if I was to say, put a level of difficulty on it, uh, no different than, say, high school.

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: Yeah. No. No different. Ah, as a matter of fact, probably easier and, and, because, uh, uh, maybe your approach and your, your world knowledge and, and how you approach things and how you see things, what you expect. Your expectations are different, so -- so, so probably easier to go through that way, you know? Um yeah, I, I would say, I would say so. I would say so. Where the material, now -- don't, don't get me wrong -- the material was probably just as challenging, okay --

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: -- but the approach and, and the -- Maybe you know how to resolve things better --

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: So, so the resolutions come easier --

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: -- because you know how and what to do.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: Okay.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm.

LIMES: As opposed to high school, you're just learning to do those things.

HENDERSON: Right. Right, right. And, so, and, as an adult, you have skills.

LIMES: Correct.

HENDERSON: You have, you have skills to work it out.

LIMES: Yeah. Mm-hm.

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: Yeah.

HENDERSON: Uh huh. Okay. Okay. Well, I think that we're gonna break here!

LIMES: Okay!

HENDERSON: And this was great!

LIMES: That's a-- all right.

HENDERSON: I am, I'm going to have more questions --

LIMES: Okay.

HENDERSON: -- as, as I (laugh) as I work through and as I read, you know, all of the transcripts and listen and listen. Yeah, we'll be talking more, but this was great.

LIMES: Okay.

HENDERSON: And very helpful.

LIMES: And it was a pleasure! And it brought back some, some pleasant, uh, memories and things like that, you know.

HENDERSON: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

LIMES: It was really good, really good.

HENDERSON: Yeah, I'm glad. I'm gonna be asking more.