Veronica Limes oral history interview, 2014-06-07

KELLY LIMES-TAYLOR HENDERSON: Okay. Here we are. It is, uh, ten to one, June seventh, two-thousand fourteen. And, uh, this is tape one of Kelly Limes-Taylor's dissertation recordings. Okay?

VERONICA LIMES: Okay.

HENDERSON: Are you ready? Okay. Could you please tell me who I'm talking to?

LIMES: My name is Veronica Leola Limes.

HENDERSON: Huh. The whole name.

LIMES: Yeah. The whole name.

HENDERSON: And where are we? Like, where are we now?

LIMES: We're at your house.

HENDERSON: Mm. Hm.

LIMES: In Atlanta, Georgia. You want the address?

HENDERSON: No. No, that's good.

LIMES: Yeah. In your house in Atlanta, Georgia.

HENDERSON: Okay. And we're specifically in my room.

LIMES: Yes.

HENDERSON: So there might be some ambient noise from the lawnmower going, since Gary's cutting the lawn, to kids --

LIMES: -- the kids, drinking water --

HENDERSON: -- the dogs may say something, sooner or later, once they notice that 00:01:00Gary's out there, so we'll, uh, do our best, and maybe take some pauses if I -- it might get too loud in a minute.

LIMES: Okay.

HENDERSON: But, um, as you know, the reason that we're here is to talk about your mom, and your mom's --

LIMES: Mm hm.

HENDERSON: -- academic life history, like what you know of her and school and then also how that history may have affected you.

LIMES: Mm hm.

HENDERSON: Um, and I know this might be weird, but I would like to actually start with you first, and just kind of your life history, so can you, um, just explain what education means to you, first of all?

LIMES: Um. That's a interesting question. I never thought about what education means --

HENDERSON: Heh heh heh.

LIMES: I know for some people, education means advancement. Um, but I never 00:02:00looked at education like that. I always looked at it as gaining more knowledge.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So, it may not have led to a specific job, like my education, my college degree did not lead me to a specific job

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: It was just a way of gaining more knowledge, and, I guess, getting smarter.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So, that's what it means to me.

HENDERSON: Um, now how is that -- is that, the same or different from schooling, or school?

LIMES: It's the same. Because you go to school to gain more knowledge. To me, education is not a means to an end, you know like people who are going for doctors, there's an end to that

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: you know, or a lawyer. There's an end to that.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So, I guess if you're going for a specific type of degree, then there is 00:03:00an end goal. If you're going just for a general education, then it's -- it's just there to help you -- in your work, because the more you know, the better you are at what you're doing

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Um, but just to be a more well-rounded individual.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Now, some people say that, you know, they can get that just by life.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: But I think the more you know educational-wise -- Because then you'll read more and you'll learn more and you want to experience more and see more and learn more

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So it puts a desire in you to -- to learn more.

HENDERSON: Mm hm. And so, how do-- So you are-- So in that way, just from what you're saying, you very much link education and schooling -- Like that's where you get an education, in school.

LIMES: For the first part of your life. Then after that you get your education from -- life.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And self-reading and self-taught. That schooling will birth in you that thirst for more and more knowledge

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So if you enjoyed school, then you'll enjoy reading and you'll enjoy visiting museums and you'll enjoy -- you know, like last night I was watching the thing on TV about Normandy

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: About World War Two, because this is the seventieth anniversary. So just to sit and and hear the history of what these men went through seventy years ago

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Some people who don't want to increase their knowledge, they would just change the channel because it doesn't mean anything to them.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So I think schooling and education puts a, a thirst in you to learn more

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: to experience more.

HENDERSON: Mm hm. And how do you -- Where did that idea come from, do you think?

LIMES: I guess from my parents, because they were -- they were avid readers

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: both of them.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And even though Daddy only went to -- You know, he had to get out of school early because -- because his dad died when he was a little boy, he was still a self-taught man. So for him, reading and knowledge and -- You know, it wasn't like he was reading big masterpieces. He liked reading Western comic books

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: But he was able to pass the Civil Service Test.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: For a man that didn't have an education, education was very important to him. And-- so reading, you know -- cliché -- reading is fundamental. That's how it was so, the more you read, the more you learned.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Even if you were just reading romance novels or trash, you're still reading, and it's increasing your vocabulary more than anything. So.

HENDERSON: How far do you know that your father went in school?

LIMES: I think it was only to second grade, if I remember correctly.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: From what I've heard. I think that's where he had to stop.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So, back then, in order to get Civil Service, I don't think, you know, there was no GED or anything like that, you just had to study to pass that exam.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: You know, because there were a lot of people back then who didn't finish school: they didn't go past eighth grade, they didn't get high school diplomas, and so, you know, but just learning was always important to him.

HENDERSON: Did he talk to you sp -- or, or you and your siblings about reading in particular or anything like that?

LIMES: No. With him, it was just watching him.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: It was watching him more than anything, because he was always reading. I know he used to complain -- He didn't like Ma reading the paper before him, 00:07:00because he used to say she read the words off the pages and when he'd get it back -- When my mother, when my mother read a paper, it was -- it was in shambles when she finished, because h --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So he didn't like reading the paper after her. But just, he was just an avid reader.

HENDERSON: Did anybody in your house, do you remember, read to you when you were younger?

LIMES: I don't remember.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: I just remember going to the library. We got a library card as soon as we could and it was, um, several blocks from our house, but my baby sister and I, we used to walk to the library all the time, and we'd go get books and bring em back and read em and take em back, so, from a very young age, we -- we used the library.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: But I don't remember when I was little if anybody sat and read books to me.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: I don't remember that.

HENDERSON: But you do remember going to the library.

LIMES: Oh yeah.

HENDERSON: Going to the library. And what's the -- what's -- what's time period, and where was that? I know, but, you know.

LIMES: Oh, the time period -- Well, the library was in New York, on a hundred and twenty fourth street, and we lived on a hundred and sixteenth street, so it was in elementary school

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: we used to walk, because In The Heat of the Night -- this is -- the movie came out back in the sixties with Sidney Poitier -- the books came out first, and I read that whole series: In the Heat of the Night, They Call Me Mister Tibbs, so I would walk to the library and get those books and come back and read em, so I must've been in maybe fifth grade?

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: I don't-- 'Cause I started school in fifty-eight, so five years later would have been in the early sixties?

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So, I think I wa-- because I was in elementary school, so --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: and our elementary school went up to sixth grade back then, so it was in 00:09:00there -- fifth, sixth grade, we used to walk to the library.

HENDERSON: Mm hm. That you were doing that.

LIMES: Mm hm.

HENDERSON: So then what about your m-mom? Wh- Talk about your memories or your thoughts about your mom and reading, or Nana and reading. You talked about the newspaper --

LIMES: The newspaper, yes, she used to read. Um, she didn't read books as much as my father read books

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: I just remember she always had a newspaper she was reading. I don't remember that. We did used to get Life magazine, because that was a -- you know, Life was big back then.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So we got Life. Um tryin to think if we got Ebony. I don't know if we got Ebony, but we got Life, so I remember that we used to get Life and read that. But I don't remember her sittin down and reading book books.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: You know. That I don't remember. But newspapers, yeah. The New York News 00:10:00and The Post, she was always reading.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And then with my older siblings, they used to get the New York Times.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So that was in the house, too, and--

HENDERSON: Your older siblings while they were living in the house?

LIMES: Living, yeah--

HENDERSON: Good. Mm hm.

LIMES: Used to get the New York Times, and the New York Times was the paper that, um, high finance people read, and well educated people read,

HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.

LIMES: um, that was, you know, just the average Joe did not read the New York Times.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: They didn't. But my older siblings, my brother Ferdie, you know, he always had a Times. And people read it on the train and

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: you learned how to fold it. And that was one of the things when I was in high school, in, um, one of the classes I took -- it wasn't English -- I don't know whether it was -- I don't remember the name of the class -- but one of the things we had to do was get a subscription to the New York Times.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And in this class -- because the Times is a big paper

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: they taught you how to fold the Times. I don't know whether the class was Civics --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: they taught you how to fold it so you could read it comfortably -- because it was a big paper.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So you'd fold a page, fold it in half, fold it in quarters, so you could read that column.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And so, yeah, they taught you -- but we had to get a subscription to the Times in this class and we had to sit and read it

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: and discuss what was in the paper.

HENDERSON: And so, just for a second as a side note, tell me about, like, in that class, um, in particular-- like what did the -- in that class -- what did the teacher look like, what did the students look like?

LIMES: Oh, I don't remember. I do not, I do not remember. Now, remember, when I went to high school, I went to a high school that was -- because that was in high school, I don't think that was junior high -- that may have been ninth grade in junior high school.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: That may have been ninth grade.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And it was in Harlem

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: so the school was predominantly Black. I don't even think -- because -- if there were a lot of Latinos -- I think the Latinos went to the other junior high school.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Um, it was predominantly Black. Um, the majority of my teachers were White

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: of course. Um, and that class, because, because I was in a program called "Upward Bound,"

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: which was for students who were going to go on to an academic high school -- in New York we had various kinds of high schools. You had an academic high school

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: which prepared you for college. You had a commercial high school, so when you came out of there, you were ready to go into work force, that taught you secretarial skills.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Back then, secretarials took-- secretaries took shorthand and typing. So 00:13:00you went to that high school, and two of my sisters went there: Terrell and Sonia. Then you had high schools that were, um, food and trade or industrial, so when you came out, you could come out -- uh -- a -- it taught you how to cook, or how to do, um, auto stuff, so when you came out, you had a trade.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So back then, the only school you came out of and didn't have a trade was an academic high school.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So because I was in this program lettin me know I was goin into an academic high school, in ninth grade, they wanted to teach you about the world, and they used the New York Times

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: so that you were, you were more aware of what was going on in the world

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: and how to, how to advance, academically. Um, they made sure your GPA 00:14:00and your, I guess, mental capacity, if that's what you want to -- or your level of understanding -- was such that you could handle the academic high school.

HENDERSON: Mm hm. And do you remember the name of your junior high?

LIMES: It was James Fennimore Cooper, junior high school number one twenty. All of our schools had numbers expect for the high schools.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So my elementary school was p.s. one oh three, public school one oh three.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: and the junior high school was one twenty, James Fennimore Cooper.

HENDERSON: And then, but the high school

LIMES: was Seward Park High School

HENDERSON: which was not in your neighborhood.

LIMES: No. It was in lower Manhattan.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And it was one of the high schools, um, you had to test to get into. There were several of those. And when you lived in New York, you could to go any high school in any of the boroughs.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Um, you didn't have to go -- And most of the hi -- Now, there was a high school maybe twenty blocks -- I don't know if it was that far from me -- Um, 00:15:00what was the name? Franklin. I forgot the name of that high school. And that also was an academic school, but they had a program that was slightly different

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: than, than academic high school that I went to. You didn't have to test to go into that high school.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So Seward Park you had to test to get into it academically. Now, three of my other siblings went to Seward Park, and I don't know if at the time they went, they had to test. You can ask -- it was Verna, uh, Ronald, and TJ

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: they all went to Seward Park

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: so when you talk to them, you can ask them if they had to test.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So you had to have a certain grade level

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: in order to get into it.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And that was in lower Manhattan, near Chinatown, Little Italy, and my high school was about ninety percent Chinese

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: and the other ten percent was African-American, Latino, and White.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: But it was an academic high school preparing you for college; when you came outta there, you were going into college.

HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.

LIMES: And that was it.

HENDERSON: And when you finished, did you move on to college?

LIMES: Yes.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: I went to, um, Bronx Community, to a two-year

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: and, um, because I didn't know what I wanted to do yet.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So I went to two-year and got my two-year degree

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: and, from there, I moved into, um, Bernard Baruch College -- which was down in lower Manhattan, twenty-third street -- because I wanted to, um, major in psychology

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So I went there to do psych courses

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: and I was working while I was -- I wasn't was -- I wasn't working when I was in Bronx Commun -- Yes, I was. I was working, um, at Merrill Lynch, because 00:17:00I started working for Merrill Lynch when I was in high school.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And, um, so I worked also while I was goin to school, both -- both of them.

HENDERSON: Oh, I thought you were going to say something.

LIMES: No. Well, at Baruch, I didn't finish it. I stopped, one semester short of my degree.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Because, by then, I -- I was tired of school. And I was failing my major, my psych classes.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So I stopped going one semester, and I remember Ma was so upset, because I was the first -- I was the first child to go straight from high school into college.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Sonia did it a year after me, but Sonia didn't -- she didn't complete.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And, um, she was upset, and I always promised her I would go back.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And when you and Jason were little, I did. I went back to Delaware State

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: and changed my major to business administration and accounting

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: and got my four-year degree from there.

HENDERSON: Mm hm, Mm hm. Now when it came to, when it came to your going to college, how -- what did that process look like, going from high school to college? So, how did you apply, who --

LIMES: Well, I remember -- my, um -- I remember going into high school, Ronald helped me a lot

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: um, with the preparation going into high school, and I don't know if that's because Ma wasn't feeling well, I don't know why he was so active in that.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: But he took me down to Seward Park, and he helped me, um, making sure the classes and everything I was takin -- And, then once I get in -- got in there, Ma would go over my schedule for the next year and everything like that.

HENDERSON: So Uncle Ronald helped you get situated for high school

LIMES: He would take me down to Seward Park, yeah. He helped me get situated for 00:19:00high school, because I had to go down there, to test and everything like that

HENDERSON: Mm hm. Oh, I see.

LIMES: And he was the one that took me down there to get all of that taken care of. And the summer before that, I was a part of a program -- and I don't know whether it was to help black peop -- kids -- I don't -- because my memory's very sketchy about this -- But it was a private school in Manhattan that I used to go to

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: take classes.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: I don't know why T -- Kel. I -- I don't remember. But I know I used to go down to th-- it was an all, White private school, and I'd go down there

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: and then I was --

HENDERSON: Hold on, because Miles is knocking. (tape paused, restarted) We're going to start again, since Miles has got his answer. (inaudible) Okay, okay.

LIMES: So I was part of this program, I don't know how -- I don't remember how I got chosen -- Um, I don't know if in the -- I real -- I don't remember how I got chosen for the program.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Then, for -- I was also part of a program with Met Life, where I used to 00:20:00go down to the Met Life building -- and they would teach us -- I don't even remember what they taught us, Kel. I don't remember whether it was about life insurance, or if it was a schooling -- And I don't know how I got chosen for these programs. I don't know if it was because of my GPA, and that's why, you know -- The Rup -- was it the Rupert School? That comes back to me. So, it was a school I had also applied for when I was in junior high school. They had me apply for that school, also Seward Park.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Um, but I ended up going to Seward Park because, financially, I couldn't have gone to that school.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: But I guess, because of my GPA, you know -- and I guess, they wanted to help, you know, Black kids from Harlem. I was chosen for several things like that.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: But I ended up at Seward Park.

HENDERSON: And so, when you were going to these different programs before you 00:21:00started at Seward Park, how old were you?

LIMES: Um, well, I would have been -- I was fourteen when my dad died, and I was in ninth grade, so I would've been fourteen, fifteen. Somewhere, somewhere in there.

HENDERSON: So was this bef-- when you were in these programs -- was this before or after your dad passed?

LIMES: It -- He passed in October, he passed in October -- It seemed to me like it was after he passed

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: if I remember correctly. I don't. My memory is bad back then.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So seemed to me it was after he pa -- That, that year after he died was a -- it was a rough year, so a lot of it I don't remember.

HENDERSON: So w-what you were talking about -- y-you -- uh, Nana being involved, 00:22:00like, once you got into -- Were you saying once you got into school --

LIMES: And I guess because Seward was so far downtown, that's why Ronald took me because he knew where it was

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: and he know how to get me down there

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: by, by train. Because, you know, Ma didn't really travel that far, and I didn't know where it was.

HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm. Mm hm. Mm hm.

LIMES: So I think that's why he took me.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Because he could get me there by train. But then after that, as far as academically, yes, she was -- she was very involved, 'specially with math, because my mother loved math

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: so she helped me with my algebra in-- in junior high school, my trig, my geme (heh) -- geom -- my geometry, my calculus -- She was very active in my math during high school because she helped me understand it.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: What I didn't understand, she could explain, even after all these years later. Because you remember, she was forty-two when she had me.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So you add sixteen to forty-two, you know how old she was when I was in high school.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And her mind was sharp with her math. She -- Her method, she did it different than the way they taught us in school, so she did it her way and got the answer, and then we worked backwards so that

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: I could do it with the method that they taught me, to come up with the same answer that she had.

HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm. So, did you know -- did she ever try to teach you her method, or --

LIMES: She did, she did, and I could do her method, but I knew I had to do it the way the school taught.

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: Because, I -- you ha -- when you do your math, you have to write out, you know, your problems,

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So it had to look like what they were teaching us in school.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: But, yeah, I learned her method to come up with the correct answer,

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: and then, then I (inaudible)

HENDERSON: So then, do you feel -- did you feel like you knew the method, or, 00:24:00like, that you knew the method and -- like, you were doing two things at the same time?

LIMES: But once I understood how to get the right answer, and she plugged it into what I had to do in school, then it was easy for me to understand it, you understand? She brought -- because her method was simple. And then she put her method into the complicated one, I guess, if that makes sense.

HENDERSON: Heh heh heh. Uh-huh.

LIMES: Once I knew the answer I was going for, then I could figure out how to get to that answer,

HENDERSON: Uh-huh.

LIMES: and then I better understood the equation or what I had to do. Yeah.

HENDERSON: Yeah. So her method was -- not si -- not easy but simple.

LIMES: Simple

HENDERSON: Like, it was an understandable method

LIMES: Yeah, yeah.

HENDERSON: The school -- did you feel like it was understandable method?

LIMES: Not in the beginning.

HENDERSON: Ah huh.

LIMES: Because, of course, I did not like math,

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: you know, but when you're dealing with a mathematician who loves math

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: but that wasn't me.

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: I was in these classes because that was part of my academic career.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: But I loved algebra.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Now, when I got into geometry and trigonometry and calculus -- uh-uh.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Sine, cosine -- uh-uh uh-uh. Angles? No. That was not my forte.

HENDERSON: And when you got to those levels, did she -- was Nana still good at it?

LIMES: Oh yeah, oh yeah.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: She never lost it.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Even years later, she helped Ronald's daughter Linda with her algebra. You know how old Lin -- how old she was? But she retained that math. She retained -- because she loved math.

HENDERSON: And wh -- wh -- would you, when it came to math -- did you think -- now, looking back, would you say she was a good teacher of it?

LIMES: Oh yeah, yeah. She taught math better than she did reading, because when she taught us reading,

HENDERSON: Heh.

LIMES: we had to sit, bet -- between her legs

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: and you held the book in your hand, and as you're reading, she's looking 00:26:00over, at the book.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.Mm hm. Mm hm.

LIMES: And sometimes she's combing your hair while you're reading, and when you get to one word you don't know it, she look over and she tell you what the word is. When you get to it the second time, if she had the comb, she was going to knock you in your head with the comb; if she didn't, she took her knuckle

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: "The! The! The!" and she'd knuckle it in. Well, by the time you got to the third time,

HENDERSON: Heh heh.

LIMES: if you didn't re-- you're ducking because you know what's going to happen, but by the time you got to the third time, you knew that word because you didn't want that knuckle to hit you.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So you sat, and she -- she taught us -- she taught us how to read, yeah.

HENDERSON: Okay. So she -- did you -- when you're remembering it -- how did you -- Because her t-teaching you to read happened much earlier than when she was teaching you the math.

LIMES: Teaching (inaudible) math. Yeah.

HENDERSON: But wh -- w -- so those are two different time periods, I know that we're comparing -- but w-what was her attitude when she was teaching reading 00:27:00versus when she was teaching math, would you say? Or, like, what was the feeling that you (inaudible)?

LIMES: Um, I think with the reading, she seemed to get frustrated more,

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: because she felt you should know that -- Ow, I knuckled my head.

HENDERSON: Heh.

LIMES: I think she felt you should know that word, sooner than you knew that word

HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.

LIMES: Where -- with -- when she was teaching me the math, she was much more patient

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: with the math,

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: than, than with the reading.

HENDERSON: Did she work with you with math when you were younger, too? Do you remember?

LIMES: I don't remember

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: I don't remember. My other siblings were still there when I was growing up

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: so they may have helped me with my math, learning my times tables and everything and quizzing me. I don't remember if she helped me mu-- much with the math when I was little.

HENDERSON: But she was the one that worked with you with the reading.

LIMES: Yeah.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Yeah. She did. And I'm quite sure the older siblings were there so they 00:28:00-- you know, my older sisters helped, too. But I guess because of the knuckling and the hitting on the head, that memory sticks with you

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: because she didn't just do that to me.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: When you talk to the other siblings, they'll tell you what she did.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Now, with the older ones, I don't know how she taught them, but the ones closer in age to me

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: when we would talk about Ma and the knuckling, um, she did the same thing to them.

HENDERSON: Mm hm. Now, when it comes to-- when it came to Nana's ability with math, where did that come from?

LIMES: Her -- she, she loved math. She wanted to be a mathematician,

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: um, when she finished school.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: She just-- she liked numbers.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: She liked math.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Um, where that came from, as far as her parents' education -- I don't know how far Mama and Papa went in school

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: but I know their children, um, the younger ones -- I guess I could put it that way -- they were encouraged to go to college. Now, Genevieve and them -- I don't think they went -- I-- I don't think -- because Ma was the, Ma was the second oldest

HENDERSON: And they were the older ones

HENDERSON: Oh, okay.

LIMES: of, of ten. My grandparents had ten kids.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So she was the second oldest of the ten. Genevieve, I don't know if she had the capabilities of going on to school

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: you know, I don't want to say was dumb -- I don't want to call her that because I don't know.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Um, but I don't think she had the, the te -- I don't want to call it tenacity -- the, um, the yearning for learning the way my mother did.

HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.

LIMES: Um, I think Genevieve they just decided she would get married and stay home kind of thing.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And then her older brothers like, um, S-Sammy and them, they didn't go to college, but her younger sisters all went to college. Um, now, with Ma, she wanted to go to college to be a mathematician,

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: her mother wanted her to become something else. And, so, she married my father because she couldn't do what she wanted to do.

HENDERSON: What -- when -- what did it mean to be a mathematician?

LIMES: So that she could teach math

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: and she taught, when, when she got older, she taught in the school -- now, the older siblings could tell you more about that, as far as where the school was -- but I know she did teach.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: She wanted to be teacher.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: I think she wanted to teach math,

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: because she enjoyed it do much.

HENDERSON: And so, what do you mean (inaudible) that she didn't get to do what she wanted so then she married--

LIMES: She wanted to go to college to be a mathematician

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Her mother wanted her to be a doctor -- the way -- the story -- I remember the story.

HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.

LIMES: Now you may get further clarification from the other ones. Her mother wanted her to go to her brother in Philadelphia

HENDERSON: Oh.

LIMES: which would have been my mother's uncle

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: because he was a doctor.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: and that's what she wanted for her. My mother didn't want to do that.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: She wanted to teach math. And so, she married my father,

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: which upset her mother.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So that's what she did. So she never -- she never really fulfilled her dream

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: was to be a math teacher. She never did. So my mother was frustrated the majority of her life, I would say. She really was. That does -- that's not saying she wasn't happy, but I don't think she ever did what she was created -- she, she didn't do what she was created to do, and that caused a lot of 00:32:00frustration and unhappiness in her life.

HENDERSON: What -- like, how -- how do you remember the frustration playing out, like what's an example --

LIMES: Um, she used to -- she -- my mom was, um, my mom was a trip at times. She really was. She was, um, she would get angry easy. If -- if we didn't do -- what -- what she wanted us to do. I don't-- I don't know how to put this. There was just always an underlying, um -- there was always an underlying anger

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: with her.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And -- (interruption due to tape player)

HENDERSON: You were saying "a level of anger -- "

LIMES: Always a level of anger, and a level of, um, sadness, I think was always 00:33:00there underlying growing up

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: um, and I didn't know what it was until I got older

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: um, you know, and had my own kids and everything like that, but I think it was, um-- you know how heard of unrequired love?

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: I think it was just a dream of hers -- I don't think her dream was to have ten kids -- and -- and I'm not saying she didn't love us -- but that's not -- that's not what she had planned in her mind for her life

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: so her life did not turn out the way she wanted her life to turn out.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And I think that's what that -- that sadness was. And that anger

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: that was there. Because she never fully realized what she wanted to do.

HENDERSON: Now if her life didn't turn out the way that she wanted it to turn out, what do you think were some of the things that could have stopped her life from turning out the way that it might have turned out?

LIMES: Well, back then, you have to remember that young ladies were under to contro -- Life back then was different than life is now.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Now, when girls finish -- you know, they'll move out of their parents' house at eighteen and get a job and have their own pla -- that's not like it was in the twenties -- and then of course you had the wars come along there,

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: um, so it wasn't as if, because she couldn't go to school, she could move out and go to school -- that wasn't -- that wasn't reality back in the -- in the twenties

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: thirties. That's not how life was.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So you did what your parents told you to do, or you got married, and then 00:35:00you did what your husband told you

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: kind of thing. So her options, because she wasn't wealthy and white, there was no sending her to finishing school or off to Europe, um, her options were limited

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: as a-- as a female back in the twenties and the thirties -- She was born in nineteen twelve.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So her options -- you know, she wasn't a suffragette -- "Yay, yay! Rah, Rah!" -- that's not the way she was raised. And then, of course, her parents had younger kids after her, so she had to help with the care of the younger kids, too,

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: so, her dreams weren't able to be realized.

HENDERSON: When you say that -- that-- at that time period, you, as a woman, did what your parents told you to do, and then you got married and then did what 00:36:00your husband told you to do, did you -- did you get the feeling -- growing up, even though this was decades later -- that Nana did what your father told hi -- her to do?

LIMES: Heh. Heh.

HENDERSON: Was that their-- that kind of dynamic there?

LIMES: No, it wasn't. It wasn't.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: It wasn't. Um, Ma ruled that house.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Now, that caused conflicts between her and Daddy because of her underlying anger and -- and -- and sadness

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: that caused problems with them, you know, I mean it was a fight every weekend

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: with the two of them, with the drinking, because Daddy drank and everything like that -- so, no -- I don't think -- he wasn't the, um, lord it over, you -- you the woman, barefoot, pregnant kind of thing, no, he wasn't that kind of person. My mother ran the house.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Point blank. Simple as that. She disciplined the kids; she took care of the house. The only time he got involved with the discipline was once the boys 00:37:00reached a certain age, she turned them over to him.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And if we, didn't do what she told us to do, and she told him -- we -- we didn't want that.

HENDERSON: Who's "we"? The girls, or all of you?

LIMES: The girls. All of us when we were little.

HENDERSON: Oh. Okay.

LIMES: We didn't -- we didn't want that. It wasn't-- and she never said to us, "Wait 'til your daddy gets home. It wasn't that, because she took care of the discipline right then. It was swift and it was quick.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: There was no, "Wait 'til your daddy get home." Uh-uh. It was the belt, the shoe, Nana was going to take care of you right then and there,

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Ma was going to take care of you right then and there. But if he happened to be home and hear us being disrespectful -- I remember one time, she was in the kitchen, and I was in another room, and she called me. And you know how now 00:38:00kids say, "Huh? Yeah?" I did that, he was in my face: "You yelling at my wife?" "No, sir,"

HENDERSON: Heh heh.

LIMES: "I'm not yelling at your wife." "When your mother calls you, you get up and go to her." "Yes, sir."

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So he made sure we all had the utmost respect

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: for, for Ma, and he did, too -- that's not saying they didn't have their rows -- because they did -- but he made sure we, as the children, respected and honored her

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: as our mother and as his wife.

HENDERSON: And why do you think that is?

LIMES: I guess because he loved her so much.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: He really did.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And that's not saying he was perfect -- he wasn't -- and he did things that disrespected her -- Now, of course we heard things from her side, and when she's angry, you never know -- the older kids may be able to tell you more about this, because when it-- when I came along, the dynamics had changed quite a bit, 00:39:00um, with them, but, um, I don't know -- I guess it was just important to hi -- I don't know if it was because when he was growing up, he was responsible for helping his mother and his sisters and he was the only boy.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: But, in the time that my father grew up, men respected women

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: You know, um, fathers respected their wives -- they may have done other things outside the household, but when they were at home, you respected your mother and your mother's word was law, and you listened to what your mother said and you did what your mother said kind of thing.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So they grew up in a different era

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: than, than, you know, kids today, or-- it's a different, it's a different kind of respect.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And he made sure we respected her.

HENDERSON: If we can go back to when you were mentioning, um, that the options 00:40:00for women were pretty limited and because she was -- because Nana was not rich and White she couldn't go to a finishing school, for example -- So what, what were -- in your opin-- in your opinion -- what were the options available -- you -- it as like, "Follow your parents, follow what your husband said." So that's kind of one level of option, but what could--

LIMES: I mean, she could have gone to school, she could have advanced in an education, but she had to do what her mother told her to do.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So there were those options, but, once again, it was what your parents told you to do you had to do. There wasn't really any other options, I don't think, and you know where, where they grew up in Georgetown, my paren -- my grandparents were considered, I don't know -- I guess they were considered 00:41:00upper-middle class, if you want to call it. My grandfather was the first Black postman --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: In Georgetown.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So that gave them a certain level of, of esteem --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- in the community.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So they had a, um, they had a certain -- I don't want to say façade, but -- you know -- a certain level of respect within the community

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: That they had to adhere to --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And then, of course, they were very light-complected --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Blacks

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: which added another level of prestige to who they were

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: because of his job and because of their skin color.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Um, so, you know, but her options were, you do what your parents tell you to do, and she had the option of, of continuing on, but it was only with what 00:42:00her parents wanted her to do.

HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.

LIMES: They didn't hear what she wanted to do. I don't know -- Which is interesting, because her younger siblings, Theopia, Matise, Thed-- they, they became teachers.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And her two sisters, The and, and Mat -- they married teachers --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- so it was all right for them to go into education, but I guess at the time my mother did it, her mother didn't see that as a future. I don't know why. And, of course, there may have been other stuff going on that we were not privy to, because skip in audio, (unintelligible) everything the way everybody puts everything out now. Back then, a lot of stuff was not discussed. It was there under the surface; it was the elephant in the room, but nobody talked about it. 00:43:00So, I'm quite sure there were other dynamics, and, of course, we only heard Ma's side of it. We never asked momma, "Why didn't you let Ma do that?" You -- that would have been disrespectful.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So all we heard from -- was her point of view and wh -- and her point of view was biased or not? I'm quite sure it was.

HENDERSON: Well, how did you hear -- how, how and when did Nana tell you --

LIMES: She talk -- I, it's a story I always grew up with --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- so, she talked about it. It wasn't a secret.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So, I've, I've always known this.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Now, whether it's gotten changed over the years -- you know, how when a story starts out at one end and it ends up at the other end and it's different than where it started, so I don't know whether there was changes, but I think the basic part of the story is, is true.

HENDERSON: Did she, did Nana ever tell you this story personally?

LIMES: No. No. I heard it, I heard it around the house.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Um, I'm quite sure it was from my siblings talking, I heard it. I don't ever remember her specifically saying to me that that's what she wanted to do --

LIMES: Mm hm.

HENDERSON: -- um, and she wasn't able to do it.

LIMES: And you said that, that Nana had an uncle that was a doctor?

HENDERSON: And I don't know him. It was her mother's brother. I don't know anything about him. Seemed to me like his name was Phillip, but, once again, one of the other siblings can tell you that. It seemed to me his name was Phillip, and he was up North, in Philadelphia --

LIMES: Mm hm.

HENDERSON: -- um, and he was a doctor --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- because, of course, up North, blacks had more opportunities than they did in the South back then. But I know nothing about him, whether he was passing 00:45:00for white or not -- I don't know.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: I don't know anything about him.

HENDERSON: Now I will say that when you and Aunt Vernie were telling me about Nana, and just -- Not about, not the part about her being a teacher, because I knew about that, or wanting to be a teacher, but I didn't know that her mother wanted her to be a doctor. I didn't know that. And so -- and I didn't realize that so many of her sisters had gone to college, because that's not something you really hear about black people doing --

LIMES: Mm hm.

HENDERSON: -- at that period of time. And so when it came to these stories that you heard, or just this idea of going to college back then -- for Nana's generation -- did any of that, was it ever discussed as something weird or odd or abnormal or it was just totally normal --

LIMES: Well, you have to remember her siblings that went to college were of another -- they were born in the late twenties and thirties.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: They were born at a different time than -- Ma was born in 1912 --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- closer to the turn of the century. So they were born a decade later --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- so I think ideas had changed, but, no, it wasn't unusual back then for blacks to go to college, because there were black colleges set up specifically for them --

HENDERSON: Mm hm

LIMES: -- in the South, so it wasn't -- I don't think it was unusual in the late twenties and early thirties for blacks to go to college, and most of them went to become educators.

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: That's where -- educators or nurses, that's usually what women did.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Most black women -- there were no black doctors --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- you -- female, back then, I don't think. Most of them were educators.

HENDERSON: So then, then what do you think a -- about Nana's mother pushing her to be a doctor? Because I was thinking that, like, "Well, that's weird," and --

LIMES: Yeah. And I don't, I don' t know if -- Well, now that I'm sitting here, I don't know whether she was using that as a ploy to get her from, away from my father.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: It could've been that. "I'll send her to Philadelphia. Then she and Jero won't be able to see each other."

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Um -- So I don't know. That ma -- that may have been just a, a ploy to get her away from Georgetown --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- and if she went to Philly, that wasn't truly going to happen -- I don't know. And maybe she knew that --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- because, like I said, I, I never discussed that with her, and I don't know whether the other sibs did or not, but, um maybe she saw it for what it 00:48:00was, a ploy to get her away from --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- my father, and she just married him to spite them? I don't know.

HENDERSON: Do -- You think that Nana is someone that would get married just to spite (unintelligible)?

LIMES: Oh, yeah. Oh --

HENDERSON: Um --

LIMES: -- yeah. Oh, yeah.

HENDERSON: And how long had she and your father been seeing each other, like --

LIMES: Well, I think they'd started dating when she was sixteen.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So, that would have been -- she was born in 1912 --

HENDERSON: So twenty-eight. Mm hm.

LIMES: Twenty-eight. Um, I think that's when they started dating. So she would have finished high school a year or so later --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- you know, and, and --

HENDERSON: And he wasn't in school?

LIMES: No. A lot of my father's younger years -- Now, I, I think he was in the I think he was in the military for a little bit, but, once again, one of the other siblings can give you more about his background. Um --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- his, I don't know a lot about when they were younger.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: I know they ended up getting married in nineteen thirty one, November of nineteen thirty-one, they ended up getting married.

HENDERSON: Did they have a wedding?

LIMES: I don't know.

HENDERSON: Humm. Do you -- Why do you think you don't know as much about your dad's -- because you know a lot about Nana's --

LIMES: Yeah. I don't know if it's because it was, it just wasn't discussed. You know, mom discussed it, because she was unhappy. I told you, when people are unhappy, they're going to tell you what they're unhappy about.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So, we knew she was unhappy about what happened when she was growing up. 00:50:00She knew -- We, we knew she was unhappy that, that, um, Genevieve didn't have to clean the house and she had to clean the house, and the time she burned herself on the stove -- We know all (laugh) this, because she was miserable and she recounted every bad thing that had ever happened to her in her life. (laughter)

LIMES: Where my dad was just da-da-da (laughter) -- You know, kind of like Miles "Do-to-do-to-do-to-do-to-do," and he took life as it came at, at him, and he dealt with it, where she tended to wallow. And she could tell you everything that happened to her that she didn't like from the time she was a little girl up, (laughter) up, up, up. She could tell you. If she was alive, she could tell you the time I made her mad when I moved out of the house in nineteen seventy 00:51:00something. She could tell you that --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- because everything negative that happened to her, she held onto it --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- and she nurtured it, and she, she opened the door and looked at it

(laughter) every so often, because she didn't want to forget none of that, so that's how we know so much about her life, because she constantly talked about it --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- where daddy was, "Do-to-do-to-do," and (unintelligible) --

HENDERSON: And so you don't know about, much about his life, not because he was hiding anything, but --

LIMES: No!

HENDERSON: -- there was just noth --

LIMES: No.

HENDERSON: He didn't, he just never discussed it (unintelligible) --

LIMES: And I never thought to ask him. Now the ol -- he may have discussed it with the older sibs, but I never thought to ask him, because he was just daddy, "Do-to-do-to-do," you know? Go to work, come home, drink, argue, go to work, come home, drink (laughter) argue, that was his life. Hang out on the stoop Ma yelling downstairs at him because he's hanging out on the stoop. So that was his life, "Do-to-do-to-do." Very simple. Hers you know, people not liking her in the 00:52:00building, her getting mad because they liked him and didn't like her (laughter). It was drama around Samenia; it was constant drama, but daddy was, "Do-to-do-to-do-to-do." You know, that's why I love Miles being named --

HENDERSON: (laughter)

LIMES: -- after him, because Miles has that same -- you know, except when he goes off, (exaggerated yelling) you know, and when daddy went, it was everybody scattered --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- but he didn't do that often.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And when he did it, it was because she provoked him --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- because he was just, "Give me my alcohol. I'm fine," kind of thing, but she was a completely different person. So that's why I know so much about her.

HENDERSON: But she did talk to you -- Like, even though she didn't talk to you directly about, like, the school situat -- like the college situation, she did 00:53:00talk to you directly about lots of things, clearly, that happened in her life.

LIMES: Yeah.

HENDERSON: Did she talk to you about things that happened to her in school when she was younger?

LIMES: No. Not that I remember any of that. I don't remem -- And you have to remember, a lot of times, she was talking to other people, because back then kids were seen but not heard.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So you sat there and as long as you didn't say anything, they'd forget you were in there, so you heard stuff, or you you know, eavesdropping --

HENDERSON: (laughter)

LIMES: -- which you shouldn't of been doing, but she didn't hide any of it, but, no, I don't remember her ever talking about schooling and classwork or, um, you know, if she went to a one-room classroom -- It seemed to me like she did, but I don't remember that. I don't remember her talking about that. The other the other sibs can tell you more if she talked about the actual school she went to.

HENDERSON: What's something else that you can think of that you heard because you were a kid in the room and nobody was paying you any attention?

LIMES: Um well, about when she gave birth to Rocky and you know, she almost had him in the toilet, because she didn't realize what was going on at the time --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- because that was her first baby, and she didn't understand.

HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.

LIMES: So I heard that and, of course, I shouldn't have heard that, being little. And, um so I remember that one. And I know, you know, when they left down South, when daddy came up North and (laughter) about the time that, that, um, Vern came home from school and was talking about this -- and Vern'll tell you this story -- this friend she had met, Betty -- Betty Limes --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And Ma was like, "Betty Limes?" because they were the Limes.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And she was trying to find out who this Limes' child was, and she thought this was one of daddy's kids he had out there, but come to find out it was a, another Limes that was related to them, an uncle or somebody, but she thought daddy had been stepping out and the chaos that caused --

HENDERSON: (laughter)

LIMES: -- um in Georgetown, so, uh -- You know, I heard about it.

HENDERSON: In Georgetown?

LIMES: Because they were in Georgetown --

HENDERSON: Oh, because they were in Georgetown --

LIMES: -- at the time.

HENDERSON: Oh.

LIMES: Yeah. Because Vern was a lit -- a little girl. So, just about that and, um, you know, how, how her mother found out about Uncle Priestly (phonetic), who was her father's child, but not her mother's child so --

HENDERSON: Who -- Huh?

LIMES: Papa had Uncle Priestly outside of the marriage --

HENDERSON: Ohhh -- Uh huh.

LIMES: And how they found out about him --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- and that was one of the reasons momm -- Well, momma was just, she was, she was an unhappy woman, too.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And how they found out about Priestly being their brother, their half-brother --

HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.

LIMES: -- and everything like that. So those were things that, you know, I just happened to overhear, being a child, that normally I wouldn't have heard, because that was adult conversation and kids weren't allowed to hear adult conversation.

HENDERSON: With the Betty, with the Betty Limes, what was the chaos that ensued in Georgetown?

LIMES: Well, I guess she, she was going to find out who, who --

HENDERSON: (laughter)

LIMES: -- who's Betty's mother? Where does Betty's mother -- She needs to find out who this Betty's mother is and why is Jero out there having children with other ladies, and she's home with her four kids and yap-yap-yap-yap-yap-yap-yap-yap.

Well, once she finds out this Betty is not Jero's, she's okay with that. So, I can't, I can't even imagine the the, the discussion between her and daddy over Betty Limes, because I'm quite sure he's saying, "Mina, that's not mine." "(Unintelligible) She's a Limes and -- " I can only hear her, and, "Mina, she's not mine." Because that's how, he was (very softly), "Mina, that's not. Mina, that's not." And when you hear him (slapping sound) slam something, "Dammit!" oh, you know then, she done pushed him too far. That's like that kid, "Momma, momma, mom -- " and you're counting, because you know after a certain number of "mommas" that kid need to stop.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And that kid goes one "momma" too many --

HENDERSON: (laughter)

LIMES: That's how it was with daddy. You could go so far with him, and when he'd erupt, he erupted.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: But she knew how far but she kept on with it --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- 'cause when you're married to somebody that long, you know what buttons and how far they could go.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So, I don't know, I don't, I don't know why she pushed and pushed and pushed the way she did. Now, and I don't want to make it sound like she was a you know, a bad person. She wasn't.

HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.

LIMES: Because we used to have a lot of fun and they loved each other. He would hold up her arms and we'd tickle -- because she was very ticklish. All he had to do was grab her arms and she's like, (unintelligible) shrieking and we'd just fall out laughing. So there was a lot of love and a lot of laughter and a lot of dancing and a lot of playing --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- growing up in our house. But, you know, I guess today they would name -- they would label Ma a manic depressive. I'm quite sure that's what they would label her.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Because I remember one time she was making bread pudding and she used to 00:59:00have this big Pyrex dish, because there was so many of us, and she was taking it out of the oven and she dropped it. She never made us another bread pudding never made us another bread pudding.

HENDERSON: Because she dropped it? But it wasn't anybody's fault.

LIMES: She never made us another bread pudding. Stuff like that.

HENDERSON: Mm hm. But why?

LIMES: I don't know. And, you know, I don't know whether -- I heard the story that Lorenzo was in there, my cousin, and tickled her. So I -- One of the other ones will have to tell you if that's true -- if Lorenzo caused her to drop it. But then why punish the rest of us, because he caused you to drop the bread pudding? So stuff like that, so she never made -- But I think they would labor her bipolar or manic-depressive in today's vernacular. Yeah, they would, because 01:00:00she had highs and she had lows.

HENDERSON: Mm hm. Now tell, because we're going to take it back a little bit closer to the -- not the present, but when, um, you were older. You had mentioned that you were working at Merrill Lynch in high school --

LIMES: Mm hm.

HENDERSON: -- and in college.

LIMES: Mm hm.

HENDERSON: When you started at high school, to me, that just seemed like a really, comparing it to high schoolers today, or even when I was in high school, that seems like a big job to have in high school.

LIMES: Yeah. I don't even know how I got that job at Merrill Lynch. (laughter) I don't. Because I started -- When I was first in high school, I worked at Lamston, which was like a Woolworth, a Five and Dime in, uh, in, um, the Village. So I worked in this, in this store. And then, I started working in 01:01:00Merrill Lynch -- I don't -- Kell, I can't even tell you how I got the job in Merrill Lynch. I don't remember. But after school, I would go there -- Was I out of high school already? It seemed to me -- Maybe I had just graduated from high school when I started working for Merrill Lynch -- maybe that's what it is maybe that's what it is. So I was in college, and I went to school during the day and then I'd go down to Merrill Lynch at night, and I, um, we bagged up the stuff for, um, the bonds and everything to be picked up. Um because the carriers would come, Brinks and everything would come. So we did, I, we did paperwork and stuff like that to get the bonds ready, get them packaged up for Brinks to come. So it was only a couple of nights -- I mean a couple of hours per night that I did 01:02:00that, because I went to college during the day, Bronx Community. And I would, you know, my classes would be finished early, and then I'd go on down -- So, we came to work when everybody else that worked normal hours left, and it was up to us to get everything ready, package it, for Brinks to come and pick up -- Brinks and Wells Fargo used to come pick up the stocks and bonds --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- and that's what we did.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: It was me, um, another guy named Kurt and there was one other person, and V don't remember the other person's name, but we used to work there in the evening.

HENDERSON: And you were still living at home?

LIMES: Uh huh.

HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.

LIMES: I lived at home through Bron -- I was still living at home, um, through Baruch. Didn't move out of my, my mom's house until I finished coll -- well, left college and then I started working full time at Merrill Lynch, um, 01:03:00because at Baruch, I switched to nights and I was working full time during the day and taking classes at night.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And, um, it wasn't until -- Tre was what -- how much older is Tre than you?

HENDERSON: (sound indicating "I don't know") I think two years or something.

LIMES: Yeah. I, so in seventy -- You were born in seventy-nine --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- so I think it was probably seventy-seven I moved out of her house, and I graduated from high school in seventy-one --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- so it was somewhere in there -- seventy-six, seventy-seven -- was when I moved out, um of my mom's house. So, yeah, I was still living there while I was working and, and going to school, and then when I stopped going to Baruch, I was just working at Merrill Lynch full time. And I worked at Merrill Lynch until I moved from New York in seventy-eight.

HENDERSON: Mm hm. But you were doing something different by the time you were 01:04:00working there full time or during the day?

LIMES: Yeah. Yeah. I was, then I was working, I was handling, um, I was in the accounting department balancing, um, the trades, balancing the books.

HENDERSON: And how did you know how to do that?

LIMES: I was taught.

HENDERSON: They -- On the job?

LIMES: I -- On-the-job training, yeah.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: I guess once I went, once I finished at, at, at Bronx Community and I had started at Baruch, and I was still doing night, and then like I said, after, after I switched to Baruch nights so I could work full time, because, I guess, this position came open. I don't remember it. This position came open and I applied for it in the, um, in the accounting department and so they taught me how to do it. And we had big ledgers and what we did was balance the trades from 01:05:00the day before. You know, with a brokerage house, they trade stocks and bonds between each other, and the next day, you got a ledger of all of the trades the night before and you had to balance 'em to make sure the monies we receive --

HENDERSON: Yeah.

LIMES: Let's say we traded bonds to, to, um -- I've forgotten the name of a broker -- another brokerage house, and they send us a check, so we had to make sure that the check we received balanced what, what we sent them --

HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.

LIMES: -- and that's what I did all day. We worked with these huge ledgers, um, balancing books. So I did accounting for Merrill Lynch, but --

HENDERSON: And, and you did -- Um, go ahead.

LIMES: Oh. And then, you know, I did various jobs, but it was mainly in the accounting department.

HENDERSON: And you didn't need a degree to do that?

LIMES: No. Back then you didn't need a degree to do a lot of (laughter) stuff.

HENDERSON: (laughter)

LIMES: It was on-the-job training --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- so a lot of people that worked at Merrill Lynch did not have a degree.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: They came and they applied and if everything -- Back then, things were so different with jobs. There was no background checks. There was no credit checks. You applied for a job. They interviewed you; if they like you, they brought you in, and they trained you. If, during the, the course of the job, you didn't do it well, some, some places would then transfer you into another department to see maybe you skip in audio, (unintelligible) -- Yeah, other place, other times, they'd just let you go. So, they trained you to do what you needed to do. And I remember when I took over just handling over-the-counter -- and that's what they called those trades, those were bonds that people actually came, picked up, or 01:07:00we sent a runner with them --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- and those were the ones I handled, just the over-the-counter ones, and we traded --

(break in audio)

HENDERSON: Okay. We'll just do -- I just have a couple of more questions and then we'll --

LIMES: Okay.

HENDERSON: Okay, so you were talking about working at Merrill Lynch and then the process for hiring and firing --

LIMES: Mm hm.

HENDERSON: -- and everything like that. Now, when you were working as a young person, I think doing fairly important things in a company at that time --

LIMES: Mm hm.

HENDERSON: -- was that, um, was that expected of people your age?

LIMES: I think so. It was commonplace. You know, they hired young back then, because, like I said, not everybody went to college, so they hired people straight out of high school, eighteen, nineteen. When I started there full time, I was older --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- because I had went through three, I guess, three years of college 01:08:00before I became full time there. But, yeah, they hired people straight out of high school.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Of course, they had older people that were there, so there was a, um, a mix.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And they didn't just throw you in there. You always had older people working around you who had been doing it for years and years and years.

HENDERSON: And at home was it anything remarkable or was it commonplace that you were doing this kind of work working for (unintelligible) --

LIMES: Um, I don't know -- I guess it was -- Nobody said anything to make it seem unusual that I was working for a brokerage house, and the people I worked with, they didn't seem -- And I was the younger of the group that I hung around with, um, and none of them seemed like it was unusual for me to be there.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Um, I guess I was mature for twenty.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: I don't know. I didn't give it much thought, but most of the people down on Wall Street, they were young, um young business people.

HENDERSON: Mm hm. Uh, and tell me a little about your college experience, so you talked about doing community college --

LIMES: Yeah, I went to Bronx Community for two years --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- because I didn't know what I wanted to do.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So, um, Ma suggested two years at Bronx Community and I'd come out with a liberal arts degree.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And then after that, I could transition into a four-year, once I decided what I wanted to do.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So, I'd go to college during the day, and come home, and I remember my first semester at college, they had community rooms where people -- lounges, I guess -- and people hung out there between classes. Well, at the lounge, there was always a bid whist game going on.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And my first semester, I almost failed out because I was playing bid whist instead of going to classes.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So when I'd go up the stairs to go to my class and I'd look in and I'd see my friends playing cards, I'd go on in there.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Now, because of my income --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- um, because we were getting Social Security, I was eligible for a Pell Grant. K was also eligible for a work stipend. So I did part-time work in -- Was I in the library? I don't remember where -- a couple of hours in school. So I got a stipend check every month. And, of course, my books were paid for. My tuition was paid for and everything like that, plus I --

HENDERSON: Through the Pell Grant?

LIMES: -- got paid to go to school. The Pell Grant paid for all of that, and then I got a work stipend, because of my income. 01:11:00I applied for work-study, I guess if you want to call it that, so I got a check. So that first semester, I almost failed, because I was playing cards instead of going to school. And ma said to me, "I'm not sending you to school to play cards." So, after that, I started going to my classes and I would just play cards when I didn't have a class, as opposed to, um, not going to my class to play cards. So I finished my two years at Bronx Community, and graduated. So it was across the Bronx. We lived on one side of Bronx; the school was on the other.

HENDERSON: But the -- you'd, because by this time, you had moved from where you grew up (unintelligible) --

LIMES: Yeah, because we had mo -- Yes, yeah. Back, um -- We moved to the Bronx from Manhattan in -- was I still in high school? Seventy-one? I think I had a few more semesters.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So, we kind of split up, um, where we were living, because ma -- They were, they were supposed to tear down the houses we were living in. It wasn't 'till years later that they finally tore down those apartments on a Hundred and Sixteenth Street, and we got the apartment in Castle Hill Projects.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And, um, it seemed to me like I was with Perry for a little bit, while I was still going to school, because I would just go down.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And Ma would stay -- I don't know whether ma was staying with Ronald -- I don't remember that, but we were split up for a little bit.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And then we moved into the apartment in the Bronx, and, which Castle Hill was on the east side and Bronx Community was on the west side of the Bronx.

HENDERSON: Humm --

LIMES: So I just took the bus across the Bronx and went to my classes during the day, and then just got on the bus and came on back home, so --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: I did that for two years.

HENDERSON: That seems like a big jump for you to go from -- Because in high school, you did fairly well in high school.

LIMES: Mm hm.

HENDERSON: Right? So it seemed like --

LIMES: Well, my GPA, you mean?

HENDERSON: Right. Uh huh. So it seems like a big jump to go from high school and then playing cards for your first semester of college.

LIMES: Yeah. (laughter)

HENDERSON: (laugh) Why, like why (laugh) why was that such a -- What was the --

LIMES: I guess because with college, you have that liberty.

HENDERSON: Oh. Mm hm.

LIMES: You know, like you used to teach your stud -- tell your students, "Nobody's on you in college to make you do your work."

HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.

LIMES: So, I met a group of people -- I had -- Because nobody I went to high school went to Bronx Community. They went to other colleges, but nobody I went to high school with was at Bronx Community. So I met a whole new group of friends and they happened to be card-playing friends. And we used to play bid whist at home, so I knew how to play bid whist.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And, um, so that's what happened. Yeah. I guess that was my rebellious 01:14:00period --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- 'cause I wasn't a rebellious child. I, I, I went by the book, you know.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And so when ma gave me my come-to-Jesus meeting -- and it's not like she was paying for me to go to school; she wasn't.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: I had a Pell Grant and the school was paying me to come, um, but when she told me, "You're not going to college to play cards. You're going to get your education," and so I snapped to, and, uh went back to school --

HENDERSON: (laughter)

LIMES: -- and finished up at Bronx Community, so -- See, that was interesting.

HENDERSON: Now how (laugh) how invested, do you think, or interested was Nana in your college experience, otherwise?

LIMES: Um, I think she was interested --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- um, but at that time, Sonia started -- well, I guess my second semester in college, because then Sonia came out of high school and she went 01:15:00into Medgar Evers, she went to Medgar Evers College in Brooklyn.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And, um, you know, she was just, she, she was she was being Sonia, so a lot of the attention was drawn to her, because she wasn't going to classes and she wasn't doing this and she wasn't doing that.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So, uh, Ma didn't have to help me as much as she did in high school with my, with my math and stuff like that. So it's not like she helped me with classes or anything like that. But, um you know, I don't remember us really having conversations regarding classes or how it was going or anything like that -- I don't remember us having that conversation. She was at my graduation when I graduated from Bronx Community.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And, um, I know she helped me decide which four-year I wanted to go to, 01:16:00because of the major I wanted, psychology, it was, there were certain schools that had certain things. And I could have gone to any four-year college within the, the SUNY, the --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- SUNY, SUNY or CUNY? SUNY, um, the New York Community College system. I could have gone to any of the four-year schools, but I picked Baruch on Twenty-Third Street, because I wanted, um, psychology and they had a good psychology program.

HENDERSON: Mm hm. And so what was your experience like at Baruch?

LIMES: Um, it was, it was different, because there was a different type of student going to Baruch. A lot of students were older.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Um, they came from different backgrounds coming into Baruch, because -- It was a four-year school to begin with. I could've went straight there. Um, so 01:17:00it was a different atmosphere than, um, than, um, Bronx Community. And none of 'em was really a campus, because they were both in the city, so at Bronx Community, the, the buildings were scattered in various places over on that section of the Bronx. And Baruch was on Twenty-Third Street, so it was one building down on Twenty-Third Street, so it was more of commuter type school. You really didn't get involved -- well, I didn't -- get involved in activities. It's not like they had frat houses or anything like that. People came to do their classes and then they went on and did whatever it was that they had to do.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: I'm quite sure they had organizations you could have joined. Um, I did become a member of the, the National Honor Society at the collegiate level, because of my GPA, but I wasn't really involved in, in anything. I didn't join any clubs or anything like that. And then, with my last year, when I switched to 01:18:00night, it was truly a different type of stu..student coming at night, because it was working professionals, who were coming back at night to finish their education, so it was a different atmosphere.

HENDERSON: Well, when you started out and said that there was, that, that at Baruch, there was the older students. What, what do you mean "older?"

LIMES: Older age-wise. In the community college, most of the students there were just coming out of college --

HENDERSON: Oh.

LIMES: -- so you had a bunch of eight --

HENDERSON: Coming out of high school?

LIMES: High school.

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: So you had a bunch of eighteen, nineteen, twenty year olds.

HENDERSON: Yeah.

LIMES: At Baruch, you had some people there that were older, in their twe -- wi -- But at, at, at Bronx Community, I met a girl -- her name was Jeri (phonetic) and she was an anomaly, because she was married, she had two kids and they lived in Parkchester, and she drove a stick-shift car, so she was, she was a foreign 01:19:00entity to me, because none of the other people there were married or had kids. Like I said, we were young, but to meet this woman who was married and had children and had her own car, which was a stick shift. I admired her, because I'm thinking, "Wow! She's back in school, and she had this and that," and that, you didn't see a lot of women married with children in college at that time. Now it's normal.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: When I went back to, to Delaware State, I had you two, so it was --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- it's normal. But back then it -- She was an anomaly. Most of the people in school were young singles.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: There weren't, you know, if they were married, they didn't have kids, I would think, so --

HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.

LIMES: But at, at Baruch, you had a, an, an older type. You had you know, people 01:20:00in their twenties, older twenties, mid twenties, going back for their education.

HENDERSON: Mm hm. Okay. Okay.

LIMES: You know, they may be going to school in the day and working at night kind of thing --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- or vice versa, like when I started working full time during the day and I went at night, so it was a different atmosphere there.

HENDERSON: And so then how did you like it there?

LIMES: I liked it fine, because I enjoyed the classes.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: I enjoyed psychology and what I was learning. Um, the atmosphere really didn't it didn't affect me one way or another.

HENDERSON: Mm hm. And what, what kind of, what years would --

LIMES: Um, I went into -- I graduated from high school in seventy-one, so I was at Bronx Community for two years. I did two years. So that takes me into what?

HENDERSON: Seventy-three.

LIMES: Seventy-three?

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And then I went directly into Baruch, so I was at Baruch seventy-four -- 01:21:00half of seventy-five was when I dropped out, my last semester.

HENDERSON: So tell me about the last semester.

LIMES: The last semester, I was, because by then I was only taking my major, which was psych, courses, and, of course, they get harder the further in you go. And by then, I was just burnt out of school. And I started, I wasn't studying. I think I was thinking about work more than school, because I could make money.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And I was getting Ds and whatnot, and I just knew, you know, I, I couldn't, uh, I couldn't graduate with the GPA that I was getting by that last semester.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So that's when I made the decision to just stop, because I wasn't getting anything out of it anymore.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And, uh, I just decided to stop at that point.

HENDERSON: Was it just that semester that was bad or --

LIMES: Well, the semester leading up to my fourth year. That first semester in 01:22:00my fourth year was rough.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Um, and by the time I got, it was time for me to register for the next, the last semester, I couldn't do it, because I knew my GPA was, was going down. I wasn't doing well in my classes at all.

HENDERSON: And was there any involvement from Nana for that?

LIMES: No, when, when I finally told her I wasn't going back, that's when, you know, she, she got upset --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- because she, I think she saw me -- I was going to say, "Pissing away my future." I don't want to say that. But just she saw me giving up on, on my dream, like she had to give up on hers, I think. And that's when I made the promise to her that I would go back and get my degree. I told her, I says, "I promise you, I will go back and get my degree," and I did. But just at that 01:23:00point, emotionally, I just wasn't there, and and I, uh, you know, I guess I didn't have anybody pushing me, encouraging me, you know, saying, "I'll help you with this." It was me. And I just got tired.

HENDERSON: Why was it just you?

LIMES: Because at that time, it was just, um, it was Ma and Sonia and I in the house; that was all. So, my siblings were all busy doing their own thing and it was just us. It was just the three of us, you know --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- and, um I don't know. That's the way it was.

HENDERSON: So, tell me about the decision to go back to school.

LIMES: Um, because I had made that promise to Ma, I knew I would do it.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And when y'all were little, and we lived in Delaware then, and, um I just knew I, I had to do it, because I had promised her. And that was my motive -- my 01:24:00motivation for going back. I knew I didn't want psychology.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And another thing that, that helped me think about quitting was -- Because by the time I was getting close to getting my four-year degree, and I was looking at the job market for psychology and sociology majors, because it was flooded, you had to go on to get your master's, and I was not going to do that. There was no way I was going to do that.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And so that helped make that determination.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: But by the time I decided it was time for me to go back and I switched my major to business and accounting, because I know with a business administration major, you can get a job doing anything.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And, so, you know, when I got my transcript from, from from Baruch and everything and I went to Del State and a lot of the classes I took, my major, 01:25:00they were able to convert that over, and I found out at Del State, I only had to do two years.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And, so, you know, I went on back. And I was still eligible for a Pell Grant and everything like that. So that's why, but my motive -- my motivation for going back was because I promised my mother I would get a four-year degree.

HENDERSON: And so what was the, what was like the instigator for you to go back at that time that you did?

LIMES: I guess because y'all were little and I knew that was a good time, and I knew when y'all went back to school, when y'all started school, I would have to go to work, whether your dad and I had broke up or not, I would have to go to work at that time, and I really did not have any marketable skills.

HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.

LIMES: There was no brokerage houses in Delaware (laugh) --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- that I could go work for, so I knew I needed something to help me land 01:26:00a job and I didn't have anything, because I was an academic.

HENDERSON: Right. Right.

LIMES: You know? I wasn't secretarial or agricultural -- I didn't have anything to help me get a job, and so I knew then I needed to, to get a degree with something so I could go to work.

HENDERSON: And what yea -- so what year was that when you started at Del State and you just did two years?

LIMES: I went back to Del State -- I want to say Jason was eighteen months old is what I want to say.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So, he was born in nineteen eighty, so it would have been eighty-one maybe, yeah, maybe eighty-two.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Because I'm on the cover of one of Del State's summer cat -- Because I went summer and -- I went the whole year.

HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.

LIMES: And I'm, I'm on the cover of, of the summer of eighty-four, I think, um, summer catalog. I'm standing -- I have to get that and show it to you. You 01:27:00remember seeing that?

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: I have to get it and show it to you. I'm there with two of my other classmates on the front cover of this, um, magazine, because that was year I was a, a senior.

HENDERSON: Um -- Mm hm.

LIMES: And, um -- So that's what -- What was your question?

HENDERSON: So then you graduated in eighty-four?

LIMES: Eighty-four. I think it was eighty-four.

HENDERSON: That was your last year.

LIMES: Yeah. I think it was eighty-four.

HENDERSON: And so, then, did Nana come to your graduation?

LIMES: No, she didn't come down. No.

HENDERSON: So what was --

LIMES: We all were there, and Vern and Chauncie. I don't know whether Noble was there or Sadie. But, um, I remember y'all being there. And that (emotion and tears in her voice) that meant a lot to me.

HENDERSON: Mm hm. That you'd finished?

LIMES: That I finished and y'all were there, because y'all sacrificed -- you didn't realize it (coughing) but there were times that y'all wanted me to play with you that I had to do homework.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So, because y'all were little, y'all didn't realize the sacrifice that y'all made, but y'all did. (coughing) Y'all gave up some of me in order to complete that.

HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm. And what was Nana's reaction when you told her?

LIMES: She was happy --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- Because I told her, I said, "I told you I would go back." She says, "I was hoping you would," and I did. (coughing) And since then other siblings have gone back --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- um, to get degrees.

HENDERSON: Were you the first of your siblings to get a college degree?

LIMES: Mm hm. Mm hm. I was the first one to go directly into college from high school.

HENDERSON: Mm hm. And the first one to get a --

LIMES: Yeah. Because I don't know -- Well I don't know. I was the first one to get a two-year. I don't know if Ter already had her nursing degree by the time I went back -- I don't know, you know --

HENDERSON: Mm hm. To get the four-year degree?

LIMES: Yeah.

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: Yeah.

HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm. And when you were doing, when you were having to do homework and, and everything like that and, and me and Jason were there, was dad around then?

LIMES: Yeah, he was around when I first went back to school, um, because I started at night --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- because he was working during the day, and so I started going to school at night and he would keep y'all. So he was there. And it wasn't, it was when I got towards the end and taking a lot of my accounting that things really got difficult, because with the accounting, you really had to pay attention. And by the time I got to my accounting, I had switched to days. And y'all were in daycare.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: You know, y'all were with Mrs. Slade --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: I don't know if you remember Mrs. Slade.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So, y'all sacrificed a lot of the time being home with me, because y'all 01:30:00were used to being home with me.

HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm .

LIMES: Um, it wasn't that y'all were there, and I just shoved you in a corner somewhere.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Um, so my, my attention was divided that way, but my last semester, my last year I think I, I was doing days, because a lot of the classes I needed, they didn't offer at night for my accounting, and so I had to take those during the day.

HENDERSON: And you didn't have a day job at that time?

LIMES: No, I was home taking care of y'all.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So I didn't go back to work until Jason went to kindergarten, and that's when I started working at Chase Manhattan Bank in Wilmington.

HENDERSON: Was it expected at that time that you -- because this was the early eighties -- that you also stayed home when you had kids? Was that still in the tradition?

LIMES: That was normal. Yeah, that was the tradition.

HENDERSON: Now with -- And that was normal -- switching back to Nana -- that was 01:31:00normal at that ti -- time, too, for her to not work.

LIMES: Yeah. For her to be home? Yeah.

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: Yeah. Most mothers were -- Women did not really get into the workplace in force until World War II, when they needed them, when the men went off to war.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: When I was growing up, there were a couple of women on my floor that worked. Um, Miss Wilson worked, but she was a single woman. Miss, um Miss Berkel (phonetic) worked; she was a single mother. Her kids were grown. Um, Miss Green worked; she was a single woman. My aunt Sis -- you know, my Aunt Sadie worked; she was a domestic.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Um, my Aunt Baby worked, because she was a single parent. So the women that worked that I saw were all single or single parents and they had to work.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Um, the women that stayed home had husbands who went out to work. So if 01:32:00you were married, you were home with the kids and, um --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Because I don't think there was a welfare system and food stamps like it is now where, you know, women just stayed home -- Now there was a system, because at some point, my mother received welfare --

HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.

LIMES: -- um, but it's not like it is now.

HENDERSON: Was that when she was --

LIMES: That's, I think before I was born. I don't remember that part, just hearing stories.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: I don't remember that part of it.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Because when I was little, my father was -- well, I guess when I was born or before I was born, he worked in a cleaners; he was a presser. So how much money they made I don't know.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So the older sibs can tell you about that.

HENDERSON: But there is a, there is an understanding that Nana received welfare at some point?

LIMES: Yeah. At some point she did --

HENDERSON: But she wasn't --

LIMES: -- 'cause I don't think her -- my father wanted her to get it, and she 01:33:00went behind his back and got it --

HENDERSON: Oh, I see. I see.

LIMES: -- because, of course, back then, welfare was, you know, that was a disgrace, because you can't provide for your family --

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: -- kind of thing.

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: So it, it wasn't, you know, what it is not to receive it back then.

HENDERSON: But she was, but she would work, though?

LIMES: No. She didn't work. Now, she was ready to go back to work when she found out she was pregnant with me --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- which was one of the reasons she had an issue with having me was because T.J. was five and he was going to school and she figured now she could go back to work, I guess, teaching or whatever. And then she didn't.

HENDERSON: So what was the story -- although I've heard it before -- what was the story of that, when she was thinking she could go back to work but not?

LIMES: When she was thinking she could go back to work and she found out she was 01:34:00pregnant with me, when she had me, she wasn't going to bring me home.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: She was going to leave me in the hospital.

HENDERSON: Um --

LIMES: And, um, Verna told her, "If you bring her home she'll be my baby."

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So they brought me home, and it was a story I've heard all of my life (throat-clearing) that I never really thought about. I never really thought about the implications that that had on me (coughing) later on as I got older, and, you know, the Holy Spirit reveals stuff to me about how that impacted me knowing, in utero, that I wasn't wanted. You know, what, what a woman does outside, it, it does affect a baby. But of course, y'all know that.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: That I wasn't wanted. And even though growing up, I would say to her, 01:35:00"Look at that. You weren't going to bring me home, and I'm the best child. You had the best looking child, the one you love the most," so it was always a running joke in our family, but I didn't realize the impact it had on me until probably three or four years ago, Kelly, when I really got the revelation of how that impacted my thinking and, and my pattern of life, and my looking for acceptance because I was rejected --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- when I was, before I was even born. And then when I was six months old, she got pregnant with Sonya. Well, she was home with one, what difference did it make? But then, fourteen years later, my dad died. If she had not had Sonia and I, my mother would have died right after my dad. She would have.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So, when things happen and we don't (unintelligible) --

HENDERSON: Is that something that she said or he said...

LIMES: No, that's something I know --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- because she as ready to climb in the casket with daddy.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And that first year after he died, she stayed drunk the whole year. And she, she would've died of a broken heart. You hear people say that; she would have.

HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.

LIMES: Hands down, because Sonia and I lived through that year with her.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: She would have died from a broken heart. So fourteen years before, God knew what was going to happen fourteen years later, and he know in order for her to survive, she had to have a reason to live, and Sonia and I were there.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So that's why she had me when she didn't want any more kids because there was a purpose (unintelligible).

HENDERSON: Now, when you would joke and say, "See, you didn't want to bring me home, and I'm the best of 'em," like would she -- what was her reaction to you (unintelligible) --

LIMES: She would just laugh. It was a running joke my whole life with all of my siblings, you know, um -- I, I never thought about it. It, it, it, it was what 01:37:00it was. Emotionally where she was at that tim -- and I've never held it against her --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- because emotionally where she was at that time, she didn't want any more kids. She had eight. There was other things she wanted to do with her life --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- that she still never got a chance to do. So that was the second time. Now, between the first four and then the next four, there was a four-year gap. Did she feel that same way when she got pregnant with, with Perry?

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: I don't know. After four years, did she figure, "Okay, I can go do something," and here she gets pregnant again -- Was it four, was it Perry or was it -- Ronald, Ronald was the next one. Did she feel that way when she got pregnant with Ronald after, you know, Vern. I don't know. I never I never 01:38:00thought about it. I just thought about that just now that there was gaps in between, because she didn't just have kids one right after the other. She had the four, there was a gap, then four, then a gap and then us last two. So did she feel, was this another time she was yet disappointed, because after the first four did she think, "Well, now, I can go?"

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And then they moved to New York when Ronald was a baby, so that was a transition. Of course, New York held more possibilities, but then after New Yor -- after Ronald, came Perry, Terrell, T.J.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Four more, so she's home with four more, and then five years and maybe then she figured, "Well, I'm still young," because she was forty-two, "I can still go get a job," and then I come along. You know, what a disappointment that was to her. And not that she didn't love me, and not that she didn't... She 01:39:00didn't treat me any different. I never felt unloved --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- um, but I know it must have been a disappointment to her.

HENDERSON: Mm hm. I think what's interesting is that, that there's the, there's this idea, even in an era where it sounded like married women with children didn't work --

LIMES: Didn't work, Mm hm.

HENDERSON: -- that she was planning on working and that she actually had worked before, when she was a married woman. And, so, why do you think that is? (break in audio) All right. Just have one more question, which is what I said last time, but you keep on --

LIMES: I keep on talking.

HENDERSON: I keep -- No, I keep on thinking of new questions as we talk, but what I was saying before the, um, tape cut us off was that Nana was planning on going back to work before she had, at least before she had you --

LIMES: Mm hm.

HENDERSON: And did she ever say that or was that -- Like how do you know that?

LIMES: No. Yeah, she said it --

HENDERSON: Oh, she said it to you?

LIMES: -- because that's part of, that's part of the story with, with my her not wanting me, yeah, because her plans were to go back to work.

HENDERSON: And how did you know of this story?

LIMES: She told me this story.

HENDERSON: Oh, she's told you that?

LIMES: Yeah. This one I heard from her lips, as well as other siblings' lips, like, "She didn't want you." You know, this one I've heard from her lips. Never heard it from my dad --

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: -- but did hear it from her. You know, just heard when he came to the hospital, because the hospital they took her to -- I was her only child born in the hospital as a matter of fact --

HENDERSON: Where was Aunt Sonia born?

LIMES: In, at home.

HENDERSON: Humm --

LIMES: The five down South, the first five were born in the house, because that's what they did back then.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: In New York, Perry was born in a taxi on the way to the hospital. Ter was 01:41:00born in an ambulance on the way to the hospital. T.J. was born at home. She made it to the hospital with me --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- and Sonya was born at home. She never told anybody she was pregnant, so it wasn't until she was in labor that they found out.

HENDERSON: She never told anyone for any of her kids that she was pregnant?

LIMES: No.

HENDERSON: What?

LIMES: And her older kids didn't know she -- When Sadie wanted to marry Melvin, she kept telling Sadie to wait, to wait. She wouldn't tell Sadie why.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Sadie got married September third, nineteen fifty-three. I was born September nineteenth, nineteen fifty-three. Sadie never knew she was pregnant.

HENDERSON: Wow.

LIMES: Because Ma, she never carried large, and she wore oversized men's shirts around the house.

HENDERSON: Oh. Uh huh.

LIMES: Now what she, whether she bound herself up. I don't know. But they never knew until she was in labor that she was pregnant, so --

HENDERSON: And she would wear men's shirts like this, polo, you know, that shirt (unintelligible) --

LIMES: Yeah, like -- Yeah, dad -- you know, daddy's shirts, big shirts.

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: Mm hm.

HENDERSON: And, but your dad would know when she was pregnant?

LIMES: Yeah.

HENDERSON: So he wouldn't be sur -- So why didn't they tell anybody?

LIMES: I don't know. I took -- Back then, people didn't talk about why Ma never -- now she may have told Miss Wilson and Miss Green, but she didn't (unintelligible) her kids --

HENDERSON: So she might've told other adults, but she --

LIMES: Yeah.

HENDERSON: -- didn't tell you guys that she was pregnant?

LIMES: No, well, didn't tell the older ones.

HENDERSON: Well, she would tell them (unintelligible) -- Oh.

LIMES: So I was the only one she made it to the hospital with. And when we got to the hospital -- I think it was Sydenham -- there was a diarrhea epidemic in the nursery, so they kept her there, but sent me to another hospital, so that's why on my birth certificate, it said I was a boy for fourteen years --

HENDERSON: Oh.

LIMES: -- because she didn't know what she had.

HENDERSON: Oh, I see.

LIMES: They told her she had a boy --

HENDERSON: Ohhh -- Uh huh.

LIMES: -- and they took me to another hospital. Well, when my father and -- I don't know, I guess it was Vern. I thought it was Sadie, but one of the girls went, and they found out I was a girl, and he came back and told her I was the most beautiful baby she had had so far. She didn't care. That didn't work. She didn't care. She didn't care. So it wasn't --

HENDERSON: But they didn't take you home that day. They just went to see you.

LIMES: Yeah, they just went to see me, because back then babies stayed in the hosp -- seven, a whole lot longer than they stay now. You were in the hospital seven days, so she never saw me until it was time for me to come home.

HENDERSON: Uh huh.

LIMES: She was just going to, "Leave her there. I'm not taking her."

HENDERSON: She didn't see you, meaning what?

LIMES: Because we got out of the hospital the same time, so she'd never seen me.

HENDERSON: But she gave birth to you.

LIMES: Yeah, but back then, they didn't --

HENDERSON: What did they do?

LIMES: Um, I don't know whether they knocked her out. I, I have no idea. But, 01:44:00because of the epidemic, I didn't stay at the same hospital. So, for her to believe she had a boy, that's telling me she never saw me to say I was a girl.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So they never put me in the nursery. They handled babies a whole lot differently than they do nowadays back then, in 1953. So, I'm believing -- now I may be wrong. One of the other sibs -- You know, Vern may know more about this, that the first time she saw me was when daddy went to the hospital and brought me home.

HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm. Humm --

LIMES: So I don't know.

HENDERSON: Was the hospital multiracial, like any --

LIMES: No, it was in Harlem, so everybody in there was black.

HENDERSON: Was black? The doctors --

LIMES: The doctors may have been --

HENDERSON: Well --

LIMES: -- white, because there were white hos -- there were white doctors and nurses.

HENDERSON: Doctors. Mm hm.

LIMES: But the, the patients were black, they were probably Latino. I don't know.

HENDERSON: And what was the name of the hospital?

LIMES: Sydenham.

HENDERSON: Uh huh. Do --

LIMES: Yeah.

HENDERSON: -- you know if it's still there?

LIMES: It's not there anymore. I don't know when Sydenham closed down (throat-clearing) because they ended up taking T.J., when T.J. was born, they took him to Harlem Hospital, which is still there. Harlem was one of, Harlem Hospital was a teaching hospital, so that's still there. Sydenham and Metropolitan, those smaller hospitals -- Hospital for Joint Diseases was a teaching hospital right on Madison Avenue. I don't know if that's still there. That's where nurses went to be trained.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Um, but Sydenham was just a, a hospital, so --

HENDERSON: So, so, going back to what I was asking before, um --

LIMES: What (unintelligible) --

HENDERSON: So the story -- so you know the story, because you heard it, because 01:46:00Nana told you this story, and the, part of the story was she was planning on going back to work. Um, and I was, and I'm also thinking about, uh the story that, you know, Nana's mother wanted her to be a doctor, she wanted to be a teacher. When she was married, she was teaching. It sounds like there was this expectation of Nana to work.

LIMES: I don't know if it was an ex -- an expectation she placed on herself or other people did.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: That she placed on herself.

HENDERSON: (Unintelligible) --

LIMES: I think, for her, she'd always wanted to teach. That's why she enjoyed teaching us. I don't think it was expected of her to do so; I think it's something she always wanted to do.

HENDERSON: But she, so she wanted to be a teacher.

LIMES: (no audible response)

HENDERSON: Okay.

LIMES: She wanted to be mathematician.

HENDERSON: Because I'm just linking this to the kind of working outside of the home thing, because it's not like -- I mean, I know, I assume that women had 01:47:00aspirations, some of them had aspirations to wor -- many of them had aspirations to do certain jobs. So, Nana wanted to teach, and I know that, and I was raised with that idea, but I just thought it was interesting that it's not like her mom was saying, "You just need to get married and stay home."

LIMES: Hm mm. No, her mother, from what I know, her mother never said that to her.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And her younger siblings that taught, they were teachers and they had kids, but they still went to work, but like I said it was a different time when they came along.

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: Um, even though, um Aq, Matt, those cousins are older than me, but then my mother had ten kids; they only had two.

HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right.

LIMES: So, in the time they, they are the same age as, as T.J. and Terrell so they're sixty-six and sixty-five now -- A number of them are dead. They've died 01:48:00early, so they're dead. But, um that's the age group that they fell into, so their parents were --

HENDERSON: So Nana's --

LIMES: Younger sisters, sisters --

HENDERSON: -- sisters? And so you're talking about Nana's nieces --

LIMES: Yeah.

HENDERSON: -- are the same age as your older siblings?

LIMES: My older siblings.

HENDERSON: So --

LIMES: That middle group of siblings, that (unintelligible) --

HENDERSON: Right. And then, so those, for Nana's sisters, they were married and were working --

LIMES: And working -- And, yeah --

HENDERSON: -- and that was --

LIMES: -- teaching.

HENDERSON: And so what does it mean -- Or, I just find it interesting that Nana came from a different generation and then there was the ex -- there was the expectation that she would work.

LIMES: Be home with kids. No. The expectations of her generations is you get married, you have kids, you stay at home.

HENDERSON: So then what does it mean that her mom --

LIMES: I think her mom wanted her to get away from my dad. That's what I think 01:49:00it was. I think that's what the whole Philadelphia thing was, so --

HENDERSON: More than just wanting her daughter to --

LIMES: To be a doctor.

HENDERSON: -- have a job.

LIMES: Yeah.

HENDERSON: So it wasn't about the job --

LIMES: No.

HENDERSON: -- it was about getting (unintelligible) --

LIMES: The more I think about it, I think it was just a mean -- a means to an end, which was --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- to get her away from my father.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: I think that's what it was.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So if she went to Philadelphia, would she have truly become a doctor? I don't know, I, because I never discussed that with Ma. I don't know if one of the other sibs did --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- but I never discussed that with her, whether she thought that would be a reality.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Um, because I'm thinking, "Well, I'll go, heck, I'll go and tell him, I want to go be a mathematician and, see, that's a lot cheaper than being a doctor," but she didn't even do that, so I don't know if she just thought her mother was lying? I have no idea.

HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.

LIMES: But, I guess, maybe because she was saying she wanted to be a 01:50:00mathematician, her mother's like, "Well, I'll tell -- You'll do this and that'll you know, satisfy what I want.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So I don't know if, if, if she would have ever -- I think with it being so deep within her, if by any means necessary, she would have gone on to school to become -- or she would have been a math teacher without going to school --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- 'cause you didn't need a college degree right then to teach --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- so I think if, at all possible, she would have taught math.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: She would have gone on and become a teacher and taught math.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Because she didn't say she wanted to be a teacher; she wanted to be a mathematician --

HENDERSON: Mm hm. Right.

LIMES: -- which is different.

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: She didn't want to teach English, or arithmetic --

HENDERSON: Right.

LIMES: -- history. She wanted to be a mathematician, which, to me, that's different from being a teacher.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: May -- maybe I'm -- I don't know. And I never asked her, "What does that mean to you, Ma, a mathematician? What does that mean?"

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: I just know she liked working with numbers.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So she could have become an accountant.

HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.

LIMES: But back then in the nineteen-twenties, options were somewhat limited for women, like I said once again, unless you were if you lived in a larger city, but they lived in Georgetown, which is different than living in New York or Philadelphia, um --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- where there were more opportunities for women to work.

HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm. Mm hm.

LIMES: Because I think even back then, the women that worked, they were 01:52:00domestics or secretaries for business, and they definitely weren't black.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: You would not have a, a black woman sitting up in front of your office.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Humm um.

HENDERSON: Humm --

LIMES: I don't care how light complected with nice hair. She had or not, she wouldn't be sitting up in the front of your office.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: I'm quite sure they didn't get jobs at banks --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- so what made her -- I, I think for her she wanted to teach math in a school.

HENDERSON: Do you think -- and that's something that she could have done in the North or the South, do you think?

LIMES: Mm hm. Mm hm. She could have.

HENDERSON: Do you think that she ever -- just because this is something that, that I think about a lot, just with hearing about her life in the South versus her life in the North -- do you think that there were ways that her life in the South was better?

LIMES: I don't know. I don't know. I mean she -- her, her mother, who I also think was bipolar, or manic depressive, or angry, an angry black woman. I think her life with her mother was, um it was a hard life.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Her mother blamed her a lot for her father's actions, because she looked so much like her father --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- so her mother took out a lot of anger toward (unintelligible) towards her father on Ma.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: And she didn't do that with the other kids, but it was -- She was named after her father and she looked like her father --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- so a lot of her mother's -- I think her life growing up with Leola was a difficult life.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

HENDERSON: That's your middle name?

LIMES: Yeah, it is. I was named after her.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Are there other ways -- Her relationship with her mother made it hard, but I'm also thinking about things outside of her mom, like opportunities. Would you say that, whether it's job opportunities, educational opportunities, do you think that there was an advantage in one place versus another --

LIMES: I don't --

HENDERSON: -- for her?

LIMES: I don't know, because, you know, when she lived -- I'm thinking of pictures of my mother. They had a very active social life in the South, her and my father. They were part of various organizations. Um, I remember one picture of her and she's standing on, on the beach, um, with a, a group of women, ten or 01:55:00twelve women, and they're all wearing white, uh, white shorts, tops, sneakers, and that, she was a member of whatever that organization is. I don't remember what it was. Um but -- I don't, I don't -- You know, in, in, in Georgetown, she was part of a different culture, a, a different class, because of who her father was and what her father did and, and --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- they were considered, I think, upper middle class or middle class, so I think there may have been more opportunities afforded her socially --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- than in New York, even though when they moved to New York, they were part of the Georgetonians and, so they were a part of organizations there, but I 01:56:00think it was a different class thing in Georgetown. Everybody knew who the Wilsons were. They were well regarded, well thought of --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- um, so socially, it was probably easier for her in the South.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: It may have been easier for her workwise, too, because there was a school, and you didn't need a degree to teach in this school, I don't think back then when she came up, so there would have been an opportunity for her to work, and I think if she had gone that route I wouldn't be sitting here.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: She would not have had the, the ten of us. She probably wouldn't have married my father, so things would have turned out different for us.

HENDERSON: Mm hm. Had she taught, if she would have taught?

LIMES: If she would have done what she wanted to do when she got out of high school.

HENDERSON: Which is be the mathematician and the --

LIMES: Mathematician --

HENDERSON: -- math teacher.

LIMES: Or, even though she was seeing my father then, so there may have been a few of us -- I don't know if there would have been ten of us, but if she had gone on to realize her dream of being a mathematician, um they probably would not have moved up North.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: But, then, I can't say that, because they moved up because of economic times and hard times, and dad --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- went North. His sisters were North, and they told him he could come North and there was more job opportunity.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So during that time, a lot of blacks were migrating -- the Great Migration up North -- so they may have been a part of that. Um --

LIMES: -- or they may not have been. I don't (unintelligible) --

HENDERSON: Do you know what your dad did when they were in Georgetown?

LIMES: No. The oldest sibs might. I don't know what he did.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: I don't know what he did. I don't know what he did. And I think he worked 01:58:00in Sumter, but I don't remember exactly what he did in Sumter, but Vern would be able to tell you.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: Like I said, he was just, "Do-to-do-to-do-to-do," so --

HENDERSON: (laughter)

LIMES: -- I, I don't know.

(laughter)

HENDERSON: Well, I thank you for this time. I know that there -- Well, we'll be talking more, uh, because I'll develop more questions as I talk to everybody --

LIMES: Yeah, as you talk to the other sibs, yeah, you'll --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- get more -- And then you can fill me in on what they say, because like I said, there's blanks in there that I don't know. And Vern has a mind like steel trap, so she'll remember everything, um, because she also has some anger and hurt issues regarding Samenia, so some of that may bleed over --

HENDERSON: Um --

LIMES: -- into your conversation. But she was more privy to -- being the fourth child --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- she was more privy to their younger years. I was privy to their older years.

HENDERSON: To their older years. Mm hm. Did you have -- Are there any questions or anything that you had for me?

LIMES: No, nothing that I can think of.

HENDERSON: Well, I hope what we're going to do, and taping, it, working with tape, I'll figure out how to work it with the tape, but these are going to be, kind of like a possession of the family, so you guys will have access to, um each other's words, you know, whether it's recorded --

LIMES: Or written -- Mm hm.

HENDERSON: -- or transcripts. I don't -- The transcripts might look a little bit funny. I think I showed you an example --

LIMES: Yeah, you did.

HENDERSON: -- before with the trans-- They going to kind of look like that, but maybe I'll try to get a copy just of the straight words, and not all of the markings that show the break in time or how we talk over each other, but you guys will be able, everybody will be able to see, because I would like for us to preserve that --

LIMES: Mm hm.

HENDERSON: -- some kind of, you know, some kind of (unintelligible) --

LIMES: Bound (unintelligible) like books somehow.

HENDERSON: And we have time -- Yeah, we have time to figure out exactly how that's going to work, but -- if it's going to be archived, you know, just what it's going to, what's going to come from it, so -- Yes. But thank you.

LIMES: You're welcome. I enjoyed it. You brought back some memories that I had forgotten and caused me to think about some things that, that I hadn't thought of --

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: -- you know, as to the why things happened.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: I just always knew they happened but never really thought about what caused it to happen.

HENDERSON: Mm hm.

LIMES: So -- Yeah. Thank you!

HENDERSON: You're welcome. We're going to keep on doing this.

LIMES: Okey-dokey.

HENDERSON: (laughter)