Herbert "Herb" Mabry oral history interview, 1995-10-11

 CHRIS LUTZ: Chris Lutz talking with Herb Mabry, President of the State AFL-CIO, in Atlanta, Georgia, on October 11, 1995. Mabry, can you tell me when and where you were born?

HERB MABRY: Oh, yeah, I was born in Roswell, Georgia. It was Fulton County--Now, it is Fulton County--Back then, it was Cobb County. And, um, well I was born there in 1929

LUTZ: Oh

MABRY: And grew up in the--basically, in the Roswell, Sandy Springs area, spending most of my, uh, uh, childhood in Sandy Springs and lived there from up until about 19-and-46, and then the family moved over into Cobb County where 00:01:00Merchants' Walk is now. And, then I married in '48, and moved into downtown Atlanta and stayed downtown, in an apartment, until we built our home out in Sandy Springs in, ah, 1950. And, uh…

LUTZ: You were living in rural Georgia, then, for a good portion of your youth, huh? Was it rural, then?

MABRY: Oh, a lot of people when they find out that I say I'm from Sandy Springs, well, they can't believe me living out there in, uh, Republican territory. But when I was a kid, we attended grammar school at Sandy Springs, but the nearest high school, at that time, was North Fulton High School down at Buckhead. And, so we had to ride the bus, uh, from Sandy Springs down to Buckhead, and we would get off the bus; and, the people from the Buckhead area there would say, 'Here 00:02:00come the country kids,' and, also I think a lot about it now--I see some of those people that I went to high school with, and they want to know where I live, and I say, 'Out in Sandy Springs.' And they say, 'Oh, you're one of those.'

LUTZ: [laughter]

MABRY: And it's the same place we have lived all of our life. And, so, after getting out of school, the jobs then were not so plentiful around Atlanta. We had a good bit of construction, because we had this--The War, you know, was over and the people had begun, um, migrating to the South, and we had few jobs. But, for the most part, you could make more money in the building trades than you could any other job that you might be able to get coming out of high school. 00:03:00And I, um, I worked on residential construction out in that area until 1950.

LUTZ: Who did you work for?

MABRY: Oh, just different companies, they all residential house builders.

LUTZ: Did they pay well?

MABRY: Beg pardon?

LUTZ: Did they pay well?

MABRY: No, they didn't pay well, even up until 19-and-48, when….when I married, the -- My pay was about a dollar and a quarter to a dollar and a half an hour. Then….then I--In 1950--I married in '48 and continued to work out in the Sandy Springs area, residential construction. But then I, um, I was lucky. I came down and joined the Carpenters' Local in 1950; and we went to work, the 00:04:00first job, union job, that I ever worked on was the building of the Sears Roebuck Store out here in West End, which is now closed. I worked on that. From that, went out in the Buckhead area and worked on some of those office buildings and apartment complexes out there. And I can remember back, one of my fir…other jobs with the union job was remodeling the old Winecoff Hotel after the fire. When they decided to remodel that hotel, and I think about it a lot, there were so many people that lost their lives there. But when we started remodeling it and the papers and all in the rooms were still there, and I found 00:05:00stationery was advertising the Winecoff Hotel as 'Atlanta's Only Fireproof Hotel.' And so I stayed there and worked and worked on a lot of the buildings, the older buildings that you see--the Howell House Apartment Complex there on Peachtree right below the Fox. I worked on them. The Darlington Apartments.

LUTZ: Oh, you worked on the Darlington--

MABRY: And number of jobs, and, then, after that, some of the last construction work that I ever did was, um, I went to work with Sears Roebuck, and at that time I was not on the payroll of Sears; I was on the payroll of McDonough Construction Company. And we would go out and put in the--At that time, the CSO Stores were very popular where--They were the outlet stores. And we would go 00:06:00build those and get 'em ready. But, then, I went on the payroll of Sears and worked with Sears in their shop, building the fixtures that went into those catalog sales stores, and worked out there until then in 1969, I ran for President of the Carpenter's Union and was elected President of the Carpenter's Union in '69 and still worked at Sears Roebuck. And, then, in 1970, I went down to Augusta, Georgia, to the Georgia State AFL-CIO Convention and ran for and was elected Secretary of the Georgia AFL-CIO. And, then, during my first term, our 00:07:00President, J. L. Moore, passed away; and the Executive Board elevated me to President to fill the unexpired term of Moore. And, so, I filled that, and I forget the month--I believe it was somewhere in June of '72, and that--Then, at the Convention, I ran unopposed and have been very fortunate. The terms then were for two years, and then we changed it, and now it is a three year term, and I have run for re-election every time, except one, unopposed. And the time that I did have opposition, the only votes that my opponent received was the votes from his own local union, and so it was not something that--He was not a serious 00:08:00candidate and neither did he take it serious. He just, he just ran--a great guy--good guy. He's still around, and we see him a lot now, and we are very, very good friends. And there was never any animosity towards either one. I dunno.

LUTZ: He just figured 'What the heck?'

MABRY: Yeah, he just decided he would run and see what he could do with it. But prior to all of that, when I first got into the Carpenter's Union, I became somewhat involved in politics through my union.

LUTZ: Mmhmm.

MABRY: Prior to the merger of the labor movement in 1957 and formed the AFL-CIO, we had the AFL—which is, more or less, represents the trades, and the CIO was 00:09:00the industrial end of the labor movement. And our political arm was LLPE, the Labors League for Political Education, and so I was very much involved in that in my younger days over there with the Carpenters.

LUTZ: Okay, hang on a second. Let me hook around a little in here, now. Um, was…it's LLAP?

MABRY: LL--Labor's League for Political Education, LLPE.

LUTZ: Okay, um, did it….was it like COPE?

MABRY: Not as organized as COPE.

LUTZ: Mmhmm.

MABRY: It was just our arm of the labor movement and just getting into it and then not lasting that long, I don't remember exactly because of the merger, then they created COPE on the two deals -- And I don't remember exactly how--I was not in a leadership position at that time. I was just a worker and worked with 00:10:00them whatever they told me to do and how we could--That was their decision.

LUTZ: Why were you interested in politics?

MABRY: Well, I had always been--Always been interested in politics. I remember--And I do not remember the year that it was--But I was born in '29—and, um, I remember

LUTZ: You caused the Great Depression yourself [laughter]

MABRY: Right, and I remember my dad bringing us--And I do not know how many of the children--I'm one of eleven children--And Dad brought us down--One of the candidates then, President Roosevelt, made an appearance at Piedmont Park and spoke at a political rally there. And I remember us going there, and seeing now the crowd, the masses of people--Compared to today, it might not have been a 00:11:00mass of people, but it was a lot of people there for that speech. And I can remember that, and, then, down through the years, I just always was interested in politics and being involved, and so I -- In 19--ah—19 and 58, I ran for Fulton County Commissioner. I was 29 years old. I knew nothing about what I was a doing, basically--I knew that there was something wrong with the system. And I look back now at what I put in my brochures and what I advocated back then, at the time, and it is things that's there now. I advocated that we have emergency 00:12:00medical facilities in the North end and South end of the county, because the people there would die before they could have got to Grady Hospital or any other hospital. So I--that was one plank in the platform. And I advocated that we have an annex on the South end and the North end of this county to where people could go buy their tags, get their building permits, and all--And we see that a reality today, but I was just a little bit ahead of the time, I guess, with it. And, then, in my platform that also that we would--through an act of the legislature--allow the schools to lease the--let them use the school playgrounds during the summer for supervised recreation for our youth. I mean, we didn't have that many youths out in that area back then. But they had nothing to do 00:13:00during the summer months, so we--I thought that that would be an excellent thing for us to do. So I ran and ran a creditable race. I ran against the most popular person--one of them--that had ever served, Commissioner Jim Alredge. And Jim and I were good friends. And, later on, we became better friends. But it was just that I saw that the government was stagnant as far as what they were trying to do. I did not--I was young. I thought that they were a little slow in being willing to make the changes that I thought needed to be made if we were going to continue to be successful.

LUTZ: Go back in politics a little bit to right after the war. Were you a fan of Ellis Arnell's?

MABRY: I'm sorry--I didn't?

LUTZ: Were you a fan of Ellis Arnell's, the one who died when he was Governor?

MABRY: Ellis Arnall.

LUTZ: I'm sorry. Ellis Arnall.

MABRY: Ellis Arnall. Well, Ellis Arnall was one of the earlier governors in the state. I did not know that much about him and government, but I--Yes, I was a friend of Ellis Arnall's. I thought Ellis Arnall was a good guy, and a lot of my people that I thought was trying to do--And Ellis Arnall was one of them. I thought Carl Sanders--After I got in, I thought Carl Sanders was a great, great Governor of Georgia. And, then, we got into a lull with governors. And we had good governors, but they were do-nothing governors. They were the type of people that you might want to live next door to--But if you were going to turn over the operating of your company to them, I don't think that you would do it. 00:15:00And one of the people that in Georgia History I think was one of the most misunderstood people -- Ralph McGill of the Constitution.

LUTZ: Oh, why do you think he was misunderstood?

MABRY: I think that Ralph McGill was a progressive person. And in the South, a progressive person in race relations, and all, was not that popular. But I think--I always thought that what he was doing was somewhat necessary for us to be involved in. Now, he might have been a little ahead of his time. We had a young--at that time--guy, later on, Charles Weltner, Charles Longstreet Weltner, 00:16:00ran for Congress here and was elected. And Charles Weltner was someone that shared a lot of those views of Ralph McGill. And he was very open in his beliefs and all, and was a great person, and when Lester Maddox was the nominee of the party, he withdrew from the race for Congress before he would run on the ticket with Lester Maddox; and that's how strong he was in his beliefs. And he served in Congress and went on to become a Supreme Court Justice and then, before his death, was made Chief Judge of the Supreme Court of Georgia.

LUTZ: You know while you mentioned--while we are on politics anyway: Lester Maddox paraded as a friend to the little man and the working man, and he even made a big deal about how he worked at Atlantic Steel as a foreman. How would 00:17:00you evaluate his governorship? Did he do anything for the working man?

MABRY: I can say that I was around during Maddox's time. I was elected right at the tail end of his gubernatorial tenure up there.

LUTZ: Mmhmm

MABRY: Lester, his reputation that he had haunted him from the time he was governor. But when he went in there, and I may be wrong, but I believe that he put the first blacks on the State Patrol that we had had, and he--when he went there, he went there as the champion of the little people.

LUTZ: Yeah.

MABRY: But by the time he went out, I'm not sure that he was. He would have been caught up in the same game that they all get caught up with. Then, he was 00:18:00elected Lieutenant Governor, and Carter became Governor, beating Carl Sanders. See, at that time, a governor could not succeed themselves. So Maddox succeeded Sanders; and, then Sanders came back to run again when that term was up; and Maddox was Lieutenant Governor while Carter was there. And Carter not only had the idea of reorganizing state government and was involved in that--Lester was a thorn in his side. I mean he just absolutely would not let him do it. But since that time, we--Carter in his inaugural address, he said the times were 00:19:00over. The days were over that Georgia went out on industry-seeking missions--that may not be his exact words--with a promise of lower wages and lower taxes. And so that has not necessarily panned out. They are still going--Every one of the governors has gone out and sold Georgia's greatest commodity that the State has is their workforce. And they have gone out and bidded it against one another, each sister state around here, to the point that, and for example, in 1947, when they passed the Right to Work law in this state; and Herman Talmadge was governor, they – the, um, the average per capita income was $342--I believe that's correct, or it's close-- below the national 00:20:00average. And even today, we are -- Here we are in 1965, and we are approximately $19,050 below the average per capita income of this state. We have not fared well at all in Georgia or any of the Southern --what we consider "Southern" states--Right-to-Work states -- 21 of them now--that the per capita income in every one of those states has gone further and further down since they got the right to work law over free bargaining, the free bargaining states. I kid a lot of times about the fact that the only state that it has--the per 00:21:00capita income has increased since then was Nevada; and they have two legalized industries, and one's prostitution and the other is gambling. So which one brought it up so that they were able to increase theirs.

LUTZ: That does raise the question, doesn't it? [laughter]

MABRY: It does. It really does. And we have constantly fought for a better way of life for the people. And we have not been successful in the area of unemployment compensation. We are 43rd in, um, down the line with benefits to laid off workers, but although we are the eleventh largest populated state in the union, and we are 43rd down the list. And in Workers Compensation, we are the lowest in benefits to a laid-off worker--I mean, to an injured worker of any state in the United States.

LUTZ: Lower than Mississippi, huh?

MABRY: Yeah.

LUTZ: Wow.

MABRY: And we used to say, 'Thank God for Mississippi.' It kept us from being on the bottom. But we went to the bottom. But they passed laws based on business, and all. There is a provision in the Workers' Compensation law that you do not have to pay premiums on salaries above, I think, $67,000. And that was put in there because the professional athletes that was over here playing football, baseball, hockey, and all--They paid those salaries, and that was to benefit the owners that they did not have to pay it. So, therefore, they stopped it at $67,000. But you take a person that is earning $60,000. Let's 00:23:00say they are earning $67,000. Their employer pays premiums on that income up to $67,000. But if that person is injured, at the present time, they would only draw $275 per week while they were out injured. Then, at the same time, you take a person who is earning $24,000--the employer--Their employer only has to pay them $24,000, but if the employees there are injured, they can draw $275 a week exactly like the other ones. And it's discriminatory on the companies that employ union labor because the salaries are higher, and they are having to pay it. But you cannot get the business community to join with you in filing a discrimination case against them by them taking the money. And I have always 00:24:00thought it was somewhat of a conspiracy with the Chamber of Commerce not to do it--to where they can do it.

LUTZ: What….what…why do we keep electing these people?

MABRY: Well, it's not a matter of us electing them. We have approximately 350,000 members in the State of Georgia. One of the hardest things to do is to try to coordinate activities among those people that are out there. Each local union is autonomous. We have no control over those people. And so they are free to do what they want to. We make political endorsements, but there is no way to hold their hand and say, 'You are going to vote for this person.'

LUTZ: Sometimes don't you want to slap them, though?

MABRY: Oh, yes. And you go to meetings, and you hear people introduce the people that hold office, and they will say to them that they are a friend of 00:25:00ours and whatever they run for, we are going to support them when in reality, they have never voted for a damn thing that we wanted--

LUTZ: Yeah.

MABRY: But they continually want to support them because it happens to be a friend of someone that they know, and they will support them. But there's ways for labor to be very effective--very, very effective.

LUTZ: What ways would you think were?

MABRY: There's a lot of ways that they could be effective. The AFL-CIO--Whether or not anyone likes the president, Herb Mabry, or not is really not the issue. That's not the issue. The issue is how can we best represent the people that we 00:26:00are elected to represent? And that's working men and women in this state which belong to a union--or that's affiliated with AFL-CIO and going a step further than that is to represent people that has no one representing them at all. So, we could be a clearinghouse for all--And we try to be, we try to be a clearinghouse for all political endorsements. But if we make an endorsement of someone for governor and another union down there does not like that endorsement, they are free to make an endorsement of anybody they want to. So, consequently, a lot of cases, they go out and make endorsements of their own, and they contribute money to them. The monies that--If a local union wanted to make a political donation to someone that's running for governor--if that 00:27:00person in those locals would take their check and mail it into the AFL-CIO office, made payable to that for the AFL-CIO to distribute, and let the president, whoever it might be when I leave, deliver that check and say, "Here is a check for $5,000, a political contribution made possible by IBEW; made possible by UFCW; or made possible by the Communication Workers"--or what not, then, you put it in the hands of that person so when the president of AFL-CIO goes up there, that person that they are talking to, whether it be a county 00:28:00official, well, or state official--The central body is charged with responsibility of city and county, so we are talking about state level. But when the President of the AFL-CIO goes up there to the Governor, the Governor will be able to--in his mind or her mind, whatever the situation might be, say that they remembered getting those checks from that person. But, on the same token, I'm out of the Carpenters' Union, so let's say that the Carpenters was going to make a contribution to a gubernatorial candidate, and that carpenter sends a check to that candidate for $2000 or they have someone from that union deliver that check. Well, when I--or whoever the President might be -- is over there lobbying, we never, in most instances, know that that check was give by the 00:29:00Carpenters, or we never know one was given by CWA or UFCW or whoever it is.

LUTZ: Mmhmm.

MABRY: So, consequently, we don't know if that Governor got $50,000 from labor or whether he got $5,000. And the only way now we can do it is to go get a copy of the Campaign Finance Disclosure and look at it and see…and pull it off, but it would be a lot more effective if that check was--if we could just deliver the check.

LUTZ: Oh, yeah. [laughter]

MABRY: And let them know that Herb Mabry brought that check up there. They would be…have a tendency to listen to us more. But, everyone--And I don't knock that at all--Everyone wants to be in the limelight. And we are all elected. All of the officers of the locals are elected. I'm elected. So we're political animals. Everything we do, we have to look at what it's going to do 00:30:00for us to perpetuate us in office as long as we want the office. And…and…so I don't fall out with them. I'm saying what it would take to really--really and truly be effective. When a politician went to one of those local unions to talk to them, they'd just say, 'Hey, we don't make the endorsements here. That's done through the AFL-CIO.' They are affiliated here--those unions are. They pay dues per capita to the AFL-CIO, and for us to do that. So by saying to them, 'Hey, we go with the endorsements, whatever those are, and you go through the process of getting that endorsement, and we're with you because we paid for that office to do that.' But they really don't do it. They invite them--They invite them to come and speak to their locals and then get up and then endorse 00:31:00them right there in the meeting in front of them and really never know that much about them. And it's hard. And, then, in some of the cases, I have--I was in a meeting once--we were--with the Commissioner Sam Caldwell, the Labor Commissioner, and we were there. And a lot of the unions were invited to send representatives to discuss legislation proposals. And when it got around to me--We were going around talking--And I says as spokesman for the labor movement--And one of the people spoke up right in front of the Commissioners and said, "You don't speak for us. I speak for my organization." And although they were affiliated with us, and paying that money, and paying my salary to go over there to coordinate the legislative activity, to tell the person that I don't 00:32:00speak for them. So those are the things the labor movement is going to have to address. I have--in the past, I have discussed it with a lot of people that the AFL-CIO really and truly they have a national office; they have a regional office, and then the state office is the only office--and the city office -- that are actually elected by the delegates that are there. Lane Kirkland had always been elected by the President, basically, of the International Union voting their per capita. And then, they appoint the Regional Director. But we are in touch with the rank and file because those locals can send delegates to our convention and elect them. So, consequently, we have the pulse of the people more so than anyone else, right here in the state offices. And we are 00:33:00able to recommend to them and to be involved if they would only listen to it. But, unfortunately, the labor movement is--There's a lot of bosses, a lot of ego trips. There had never been a person in Georgia from labor that was -- served on the Democratic National Committee. And when I got elected in here in 19 and 70 and right after I was elected, I ran, in Georgia, for a seat on the Democratic National Committee and was elected and still serve to this day as…on the National Committee, but--\

LUTZ: So that gives--What amounts to is that it gives anyone who is a member of an AFL-CIO union a kind of a post line right to the 00:34:00Democratic National Committee, doesn't it?

MABRY: It does. It does. I…I have never missed--in those number of years, only two meetings of the Democratic National Committee. I've always been there. I've always spoke on the issues. I have been involved. I had a good relationship with the Chair. I was the only person from--white--from Georgia that voted for Ron Brown, the black, when he became Chairman of the Democratic National Committee, and one of the best we ever had. And I'm proud of that fact that I was able to do that.

LUTZ: But wait a minute--Now, let me stick with this Democratic National Committee for a second. You were on it, then, when Jimmy Carter ran for President, yes?

MABRY: No.

LUTZ: No?

MABRY: No, when Jimmy Carter ran for President--Yes, when he ran for President.

LUTZ: Yeah.

MABRY: I went to--I was a delegate to the Democratic National Convention, and I am saying 1970--'72--

LUTZ: Okay, '72 is the --

MABRY: In Miami--That was for McGovern. Well, we went there, and the McGovern Commission expanded the number of people that were on the National Committee. Then, we had to go back to our respective states and implement what had been adopted at that time. So we -- I think that we -- And I don't know how many was on there prior to then, but then they became four on it, so it must have been two. And I was elected, and a lady by the name of Connie Plumpton was elected 00:36:00as one of them and Mary Hitt was one. Mary ran for Lieutenant Governor here. She was the wife of a phy…of a physician, a doctor down in Jesup, Georgia, and she ran for Lieutenant Governor when Zell was first elected. And we….I have been very active in it, but at the time that I was elected a Democratic National Committeeman from Georgia, I went--I went to the meeting--The labor movement--The AFL-CIO, as such, had pulled its support away from the National Democratic Party. Meany had pulled them out and away. So although I was from organized labor, I was elected in my state as an individual to go up there, so I 00:37:00attended that, and I was…I was appointed on committees. In fact, I was a member of the site selection committee to select the site for the convention in 1976 when Jimmy Carter won the nomination, and I was able to work with Carter pretty good as to where he wanted the convention, and he wanted the convention held in New York because the campaign was going to have to pay a lot of the costs of getting delegates there, our delegates that we had. And I had gone into about twenty-four states and spoke for Carter. And, I, ironically that that Mondale became his running mate, but I had been to Minnesota and spoke for Carter; and I had gone to New York and spoke for him at a meeting up there. And…and I know I went to Atlantic City, New Jersey, and spoke for him and then 00:38:00went to Florida in…on the Peanut Brigade and handed out handbills on the weekends.

LUTZ: What kind of response did you get at these different places?

MABRY: Real good.

LUTZ: Yeah?

MABRY: Real good. It's funny that I went to Poughkeepsie, in New York and spoke--That's where it was--out at a Democratic function, and the only place in New York where Jimmy Carter won a delegate was there where I had been. It might not have had anything to do with it, but it was--It was at least that he won that delegate there in that…in that place. And I know that I went to Le Sourdsville, Ohio--and I think that's the name of it. And the Teamsters at that time, I knew no one in the Teamsters because they were not a part of the AFL-CIO. They had been suspended from…or either pulled out--The Teamsters and 00:39:00the UAW--The Teamsters were expelled from the AFL-CIO, and the Automobile Workers pulled out; and the…and the Chemical Workers were expelled until they cleaned up their act. And…but I went up there and spoke for Carter at Le Sourdsville, Ohio, and they had a picnic. And they said there was 30,000 people, and I spoke for the campaign at that and was very, very much involved in Carter's campaign, and then when--But prior to then, the labor movement coming back in the AFL-CIO, that is how I got on these different committees, but once--and going back to what I say, 'ego,' once they came back in, when the 00:40:00Chairman of the Democratic National Committee, Bob Strauss was chairman--So Bob and Helen, his wife, and my wife and I, we'd pal around a lot when we would go to these different places to select the site for the conventions. And we went to, ah--We went to California, Los Angeles. And we went--I know that when we went there, the first night we was there, we had dinner with the host committee that was hosting us--And Dianne Carroll, the lady that played the Hot Lips on MASH--

LUTZ: Okay--Loretta Swit. Loretta Swit? Well, maybe?

MABRY: Well, we went out to Cashin's for dinner, and she was seated right beside 00:41:00me. And the next night, though, one of the highlights of my labor career, getting to do as a result of being President of the AFL-CIO, we had dinner in the home of Robert Wagner and Natalie Wood. And he and I walked out in his backyard. He had just finished building his pool and his pool house in Beverly Hills there, where we were, and he and I went out there, and he wanted to show me his pool house, and he had shipped an old wagon wheel in from Sicily, and he was so proud of that thing, you know, and we had dinner. And we had Diana Ross there, and we had--I don't know--the guy who played "On Golden Pond."

LUTZ: Oh, Fonda?

MABRY: Yeah, Henry Fonda was there. And we had a bunch of people there and just thoroughly enjoyed it--thoroughly enjoyed it, and those were the things that we did. But, then, after then--After that convention, the labor movement came back in to the Democratic Party. When they got ready then to--They expanded the committee, and labor got so many of the seats on the Democratic National Committee, at-large seats. They had negotiated that. Well, when they came back in, all of the different committees, the Credentials Committee, the Constitution Committee, the Resolutions Committee, and all these different committees, labor was going to be represented on them. So when they would send over to the AFL-CIO, to Lane Kirkland's office, or either through the Political COPE department and wanted to know who labor wanted to put--they didn't look down to 00:43:00Georgia and get me as a labor person. The international presidents were put on those committees or the political directors of the internationals. So here I was sitting down here, never was put on another committee, never was put on--Labor carried me on their rolls as labor; I was up there in the party as labor; so, therefore, the Chairman of the National Committee never did have to look at me in anywhere, and labor never did put me on anything. So they, more or less, diminished my effectiveness on there, other than the fact of things that were not necessarily labor. I was just then down here about it. And lot of the international people just wanted it for the glory of it of being on there, and not wanting to take the time. So they, and rightfully so, that's the 00:44:00AFL-CIO, that's our labor movement. They had a right to do it; they were doing what they thought was in the best interests of this labor movement because the internationals was footing the money. I was not putting any money in to operate the labor movement, as far as the Committee was concerned, so I did not get to do it-- But I have continued working very close and carrying out the policies of the AFL-CIO. I have never gone against the policy they had. I always imple…..try to implement their programs and work real close with them.

LUTZ: Um, let me…let me stop you before you break with the Carter presidency -- How would you evaluate the Carter presidency? [inaudible]

MABRY: I evaluate him--I give him very, very high marks…

LUTZ: Yeah.

MABRY: …on the Presidency. He was fair with the labor movement. In fact, I helped Jimmy a lot, the President. I helped him a lot in the campaign because he was hit in some of the heavy industrial states, in the Midwest, the North, and all up there about being a Governor of a right-to-work state. So he called me one day and wanted to know how to really address that. And I says, "Well, Jimmy, I think that if I were you, I would just tell them that you inherited a right-to-work state and that there was no way that you could have ever repealed right-to-work in Georgia if you had wanted to. And, so you can also tell them that this country has had some of the greatest presidents that any country ever 00:46:00had in leadership since the right-to-work law was put on the books in 1945--that you had Harry Truman in there. You had John Kennedy. You had Lyndon Johnson in there as president, and none of them had succeeded in or attempted to repeal the 14th bill of Taft-Hartley that allowed right-to-work and that you thought it was totally unfair for them, just because you were down here in a Right-to-work state that you could do nothing about, to hold it against you.' So that's what his answer was to them. Well, we went on from there, and we picked up state after state in delegates, and I called Al Barkin, the late Al Barkin, who was COPE director of the AFL-CIO at that time, and I says to Al-- I says, 'Al, I 00:47:00think it's time' -- Excuse me, let me back up. I called Jimmy Carter in Plains, Georgia, and I says, um, I says "Jimmy, it is time for you to talk to George Meany." I says, "You are going to be the nominee. You cannot win the Presidency of the United States without help from the labor movement, and you an unknown person like you are before you started. And you…and the people are going to be leery of you.' And he said, 'Herb, I know that.' But he said, 'I cannot afford to make a call to the AFL-CIO in Washington and have George Meany to…George Meany refuse to take my call and that get in the press.' He said, 00:48:00'I can't do it.' I says, 'If I will set it up, will you go.' He said, 'I'll go anytime you set it up.' I got on the phone, and I called Al Barkin, who was COPE Director, and I told him that I had just talked to, um, to Governor Carter and that he is willing to meet with Meany, and he would call him if Meany will assure him that he will take the call, and he's waiting for me to call him back. He said, 'Okay, you just stay where you are.' He called Me…

LUTZ: --about Meany and Carter.

MABRY: He says for me to just stay where I was. He would call Meany--'George,' he referred to him. He says, 'I'll call George and see.' He called me back within three minutes and says, 'I have just talked to George. He says he will notify the switchboard not to put any calls through to his office until Carter 00:49:00calls, and he will take the call and will be waiting.' I got Carter on the phone, he…and told him, gave him the number to call; so it went immediately through, and he talked with George Meany and set up a meeting in Washington for whenever we went. And he called me after he talked to him and told me when it was, and he said, 'I'd like for you to go with me.' So I went to Washington with him. We went to the AFL-CIO Building, went up to the 8th floor, walked in; and, of course, they didn't have to introduce me. I knew them all. And didn't have to introduce him--Everybody did--But everybody in the outer offices, the secretaries and all, got up and came over and shook hands. Well, by then, Meany knew that he was there, and Meany invited us in. And, um, I'm a strong believer 00:50:00in protocol, and, um, so he talked a minute, and he said, 'Come on back," and then Carter turned to me, and said, 'Herb, are you going in?' I said, 'This is where I leave.' I said, 'That call is Meany. And I'll just wait out here.' So, I waited on him to come out. And he was in there approximately an hour, I guess, talking to him. Then, we went out, and the press was downstairs, had a press conference, and talked to them about what was discussed, he did, with Meany, and went on, and then the labor movement supported him. And, um, so we…we supported him, and he was then elected. And I thought that, under the circumstances, that he went up there and faced about the same thing that he 00:51:00faced as Governor. Lester had--was a thorn in his damn side from the time he got in until he left. And then he went up there, and Carter made one great mistake. You have to admire him for it, but he made a bad mistake. You'd think that you can go to Washington, D.C. as an outsider, someone that had never been in the Congress of the United States, never been--held any position in the federal government. Um, and he went up there and thought that he could run that government without those people. He took Hamilton with him, and Hamilton, somewhat, was an embarrassment to him--very smart person. But you remember that he went to work with combat boots on and blue jeans and all. Well, that didn't 00:52:00set well. And then the first fireside chat that Carter ever had, he went there in a sweater; and that didn't set well with a lot of people. And then we had the oil embargo, and we had--we saw interest rates going up to eighteen percent and the hostage crisis and all of that. He had to deal with that the second part of his term, two years of a four year term--So he did not have an ample opportunity to do it, and I will always believe that the Reagan Republicans had something to do with those hostages not being released by them being released the day that he was sworn in. And Carter--It took a lot for him to do it, to go over there and be there when, after, you know, he had lost the presidency to, 00:53:00um, Reagan. But the things that he tried to do and what he did accomplish, the American people never gave him credit for it until the last few years. And they look back now and see what the man stood for and what he tried to do and what he was involved in.

LUTZ: He's [inaudible] since then.

MABRY: Yeah, Carter took some good people with him--good people to Washington--Jody Powell was great; Stu Eisenstadt was a great person; and he took--The people that he took with him was people that could do it. They could do it. But they just did not have a chance. Bert Lance--Bert Lance, in my opinion, was one person that was really put through--when there was no real justification--People didn't understand small town southern banking and talked 00:54:00about Bert paying checks for people that was overdrawn. But in a community where you know everyone in the world--What's that old saying, 'When you go into town with a black eye, don't worry about telling people what happened. They already know." So he knew the finances of everybody up there and ran the bank different. And Bert Lance and I were friends before he went up there. We're still very close friends. I talk to him a couple of times a month now, and more often if I need to. And I -- Bert -- I had breakfast at the White House with Bert one morning. I saw him up in Washington, and he told Hamilton Jordan who--Not Hamilton--Scott Coleman, who had gone up there with him, as his aide, to pick me up the next morning, and bring me over to the White House; and I went over there and had breakfast with him. And he and I have been very good 00:55:00friends--a very capable person--I think just as honest as the days are long. And he, um, he has, later on, when Mondale ran and was our Democratic nominee, he was going to make Bert the head of--the Chairman of the Democratic National Committee. And the labor movement just absolutely went berserk. We were in San Francisco, and we met--and I was somewhat of a liaison between Bert and the labor movement, although I was not in the league with Kirkland and them. I mean, I would talk to them. That was their call again. I had no say-so in that and didn't try to--other than a friend of Bert--I was a friend of Bert Lance, and was AFL-CIO State President. But he had promised it--Mondale had promised 00:56:00it to Bert, but Bert did not get it. Chuck Manett who was the chairman, continued on until the next meeting of the committee when they elected a new one. But I saw a lot of that stuff unfold--a lot of the history as far as the presidency and the campaigns that we have been in and what people--I have had people from running for office, for Congress, that would come into this office, and sit here, and talk to me about their views. You would think they were damn labor organizers, they love labor so much. And then they go to Congress and never, never support any issues.

LUTZ: Who are the real good guys, and who are the bad guys?

MABRY: Well, the best person that we have ever elected to Congress from here was John Lewis. Now, when, um, when Andy Young left and went to -- went to the U.N. from Congress with Carter, then everyone in Atlanta assumed that Julian Bond…Bond was going to be the heir apparent to the Congressional seat. He was a rising young star, very articulate, very intelligent person; and they wanted to bid--He was in the legislature, Georgia legislature--and been in the first one and then had a lot of problems He was not the first one elected. That was Leroy Johnson to the Senate. But Julian--they wouldn't swear him in in the House, you know, on account of his positions--on the Vietnam War, I believe it was, and that--I don't get involved in that that deep. But anyhow, they thought 00:58:00it was going to be him. And we--in the labor movement, I recommended and got our people to endorse John Lewis. And I was called to Washington, and I went before the committee up there to explain why that we endorsed John Lewis over Julian Bond. A lot of people up there at the COPE Operating Committee was for Julian, and they knew him and all. And John was just down here in the city council and all, and they said, 'I don't understand how you could endorse him over Julian when Julian Bond will vote with you on every issue.' I said, 'I will tell you, you're right. He will vote with us on every issue if he is there 00:59:00to vote. But he is never there.' And I said, 'It will be the same way. If he gets in Congress, he will never be there to vote on the issues.' I said, 'John Lewis has walked in the marches with us. He has come to the picket line for us. And he will be there to vote, and we are endorsing him.' So John…John beat him, and he became--Those same people today that remember it come to me and say, 'Herb, thank you. Thank you for it.' We supported Cynthia McKinney. Cynthia--I do not know whether you remember back, but we had a vacancy that occurred in the, um, in the 40th House district, I believe it was--that's the one, a district-at large. Cynthia McKinney ran and there was eight or nine people that 01:00:00ran. I ran for representative in that area, and Cynthia and I ended up the two top people and was in a runoff. And she defeated me, and as much as I had been involved in the black community, and was…attended every function, and was a member of the Board of the Martin Luther King Center, and went over and attended meetings with the Concerned Black Clergy, and all the time was very much involved, the black community went with her. And, um, so, um, I did not campaign as hard out, maybe, in some of the other areas because I had been more involved in the black community, but the black community didn't go with me. And then the white community voted for the female. And so I lost, and but we 01:01:00supported Cynthia. I told her that I supported her in spite of the fact that she's the daughter of Billy McKinney. Billy and I are friends, and we kid a lot about it. But she has been right with us on the issues. Sandra [Bisher] has been right with us--and the rest of them--Nathan Deal, you know, Nathan Deal was going to be a friend of ours. And Nathan Deal had managed Bert Lance's campaign when Bert Lance ran for Governor of Georgia and when Busbee was elected, and he had been a friend, so we supported Nathan, and then he went up there, and he never voted with us. Don Johnson was a good person that voted with us. But I have, since I have been in this office, I had to deal with Larry McDonald; and 01:02:00Larry McDonald was somebody that I just could not deal with. He got a--about a seven percent voting record with us. And we had Jack Flynt--who Newt ran against the first time. And he was not good, but he was better than what Newt was…stood for. Then, we have had Elliott Levitas. Elliot was a good person, gave us a lot of votes. But, then, he voted…he voted against us on some, and our people got mad about it, and our people didn't vote for him. And he got defeated, and then we ended up--We ended up out there with Pat Swindall. And then, of course, we had Ben Jones, and then Ben lost out by reapportionment. And [inaudible]

LUTZ: Was he pretty good when he was there, though?

MABRY: Ben?

LUTZ: Yeah.

MABRY: Yeah, Ben was good. He was good for us, and he voted--had a good voting record. And we have had some--Buddy Darden. When Larry McDonald got killed, I was the first person to call Buddy and ask Buddy to run for that seat. And he said, 'Herb, I'm not sure.' He was in the House, and he wasn't sure that he wanted to--wanted to do that. And he, later on, though he made the decision that he would run; and he was elected, and Buddy had about a sixty percent voting record with us, and I thought that was fair enough. I mean, I want a hundred--Hell, I'd like to have every vote he has to be ours. But I'm a realist and, um, and very pragmatic, I think, when it comes to politics. I think I understand politics and know what makes people move and who the movers and 01:04:00shakers are. So the movers and the shakers in the South is the monied people in the business community. But he had a voting record with us and good for Lockheed--Keep those jobs. And he voted against us on NAFTA, after he told me--I was in Washington, and he told me in the afternoon that he was with us. And, then, they called me--they paged me the next morning at the hotel and told me that he was going to have to go the other way. Well, they'd done political pressure on him. But he got defeated then by Bob Barr. But, on the same token, I had lived through the, um, Larry McDonald. And I had lived through some of the other ones that we had, and Phil Landrum up in the 9th District was no good for us. And, then, Ed Jenkins was--He was a little better than Phil Landrum, 01:05:00but then he was not necessarily any good for us. Charlie Weltner was a good Congressman--

LUTZ: What about our governors?

MABRY: Um, beg pardon?

LUTZ: How about our governors? Any good governors in there?

MABRY: George Busbee--None of them ever did anything for us. It was the fact that I had been working on trying to get the labor study program at Georgia State University for seven years. And Busbee was the governor; and Busbee was the one that helped us, and Norman Underwood helped us get it, along with Bill Suttles, who is at Georgia State, and all the labor movement--Well, not all of it, but some of the more progressive unions really helped to try to get it. And we've got the labor study program up there. And I think it's a very good thing. We just need to build on it and, um, and make it better. But the Governor Joe 01:06:00Frank Harris was very laid back. He was not a go-getter, but he was a fine person. George Busbee was a good ole' boy governor. And he…he was somebody that -- He made the only two appointments of a labor person to anything, and both of them were out of the UAW. The UAW was not part of the AFL-CIO then, and we kept hands off of the governor's race because, you know, Maddox came back from lieutenant governor and ran for governor again, and that's when Busbee defeated him. And Busbee won, and the UAW had made an endorsement. They made an endorsement in that race, and they endorsed Busbee. We kept out of it. We 01:07:00didn't make an endorsement to see which one was in the runoff. That's what we did. Then we endorsed Busbee against Lester in it.But he made two appointments. He appointed Herb Green to the Unemployment Appeals Board. And he appointed Herb Butler from UAW to the Department of Natural Resources. So he did that, but other than that, we have never had anyone on a state board. Now, Governor Miller and I attended the Democratic Convention in Miami in '72. We were--the first one he had ever attended; the first one that I have ever attended. He was Executive Director of the Democratic Party. And I worked very close with him 01:08:00over there. And then he left that and took an appointment to the Board of Pardon and Paroles. And he was on the Board of Pardon and Paroles, and I called him and told him I'd like to talk to him. And you are going to find this interesting. And I talked to him about running for lieutenant governor, and he told me that he had two young sons that he had to educate them; he did not have any money; he worked for what he had, and that he could not afford to give up his job on the Pardon and Parole Board to run. At that time, Hal Gulliver was the editor of the Constitution. And Hal and I had become good friends, and I called Hal and asked him would he have lunch with me and Zell Miller who -- I knew he was very good friends with Zell. Now, that I had known because he and I 01:09:00had been to Zell's home up in Young Harris to cookouts and all together and was very close. So he said 'Yeah.' We met up there and tried to talk Zell into running for lieutenant governor, and he turned us down flat. And about two weeks later, I called Zell and asked him would he have lunch with me and Hal Gulliver at the Kimball House Restaurant, and he said, 'Yes.' He came over there, and I says, 'We wanted to meet with you one more time.' And I says, 'I want you to run for lieutenant governor, and if you will run for lieutenant governor, the labor movement will endorse you.' Now, you would think the labor movement would be stronger now, but we were stronger back then.

LUTZ: Yeah.

MABRY: We were stronger back then than we are now based on the mood of the 01:10:00country. I mean we had just had McGovern as our nominee of the party, so that tells you we were pretty liberal thinking, so Zell -- We wanted him to run, and, again, he says, 'No' that he just could not do it. So I called Zell--No, I told him, I said, 'Zell, if you will run for lieutenant governor, the labor movement will endorse you.' And I says, 'I will guarantee you to put--I'll put $10,000 in your campaign to start it off, from the labor movement.' And I said, 'The Constitution will endorse you.' And Hal Gulliver said, 'Oh, hell, no, Herb.' He said, 'I have a Board.' I said, 'I have a Board, too.' But I said, 'I believe that I can go to my Board and talk with my Board and tell them he's the man for that job, and they'll go along, and they'll say, "We'll endorse him."' 01:11:00And we talked on a few minutes, and he said--You'd have to know Hal Gulliver--He said, 'Oh, hell, Herb, we'll endorse him, too, then.' And so Zell said, 'Well, I'll let you know.' About two or three days later, Zell called me. And he said, 'You've got a candidate.' And so that was sometime in October or November because Zell resigned his job at the end of the year. And New Year's night he was up in Underground Atlanta campaigning, and there are articles saying he was campaigning for lieutenant governor. I am not sure how much money that I ever gave Zell the first time, and we can go back and find it out. But Zell and Shirley came here to this office right here and stood, and we were looking out 01:12:00at the city, and I gave him a check for $5,000. We are talking about twenty years ago. And I gave him a check for $5,000, and he looked at me and says, 'What do you say to somebody that gives you a check for $5,000 to start a campaign on?' I said, 'Zell, you don't have to say anything to me.' I said, 'Just promise me you will make a good lieutenant governor.' And he says, 'Well, I'll do my best.' And so he left. They left and went on, and I don't believe--because he told me, I believe later on, that when I mentioned about giving him some money, he said, 'Herb, money is coming in so good. I don't need it. And y'all probably need it. And if I need any, I'll let you know.'

LUTZ: Boy, he must be the first candidate in history to say that.

MABRY: Yeah, and he was…he was honest about it. So Zell went on, and he won 01:13:00the race--ended up in a run-off, I believe, twenty years ago, with Mary Hitt. And he defeated Mary Hitt in that campaign, and Mary was a very, very good friend of mine. And she talked with me about the campaign, and she--Mary and I both were on the Democratic National Committee. And Mary was kind of a short like girl--and I kid and I [inaudible] and I told my wife--it doesn't matter--We went up to Louisville for a National Committee Meeting, and they treated us to a cruise up the Ohio River on the Belle of Louisville. And when we went on the boat, they were passing out the mint juleps and all, and Mary got her one, and I don't drink, so we went on--We were not together. We did not go to that boat together. But she was on the boat, and she had got her one, and I think she went 01:14:00back and got her another one. And Mary had on a dress that was kind of low, and she wanted to talk to me. And I went over there, and we was leaning up against the rail of the boat, talking about the campaign, and she was chewing me out for not endorsing her, and all like that. And she was wanting her support--wanting our support. And I says, 'Mary, if you ever want to talk to me again, on a boat, me standing up looking at you' -- I says, 'I want you to wear a high topped dress.' And she got tickled and everything, and she said, 'Herb, how can anybody be mad at you.' So I have told my wife, and I've told people about that, and I say, 'Besides, you need to wear a full…a high topped dress.' But Mary Hitt was a fine lady in every respect. She would have made a good lieutenant governor. I just thought Zell would do much better. Zell went on and served in 01:15:00the lieutenant governor's office. As time grew on, you could go back and look at Zell's first race that he ever ran for Congress against Bill Landrum up in the Ninth District. He had labor support. And he was a very liberal, progressive type candidate. Then went on for lieutenant governor when he ran in the race against Herman Talmadge. You will remember Herman Talmadge. He and Herman Talmadge was in a runoff.

LUTZ: [inaudible]

MABRY: And so he -- Herman defeated him. Then, Mack Mattingly defeated Herman Talmadge.

LUTZ: Okay.

MABRY: So after that was over, the night that we were over at the hotel, the Stadium Hotel, and the night of the runoff--the night of the election where he 01:16:00was in the runoff with Talmadge. And he was standing there calling people up and all to be on the platform with him--'Herb, come on up'--and different people. After it was kind of over, I said, 'Zell, let me just give you some good advice.' I said, 'This is still a right-to-work state and a conservative state, and you cannot get up there and call all of us up there like that for everybody to see who is going to really be--'But, anyhow, he lost the campaign. After the campaign was over, about a month or two after then, Zell had a meeting. That meeting was held in the ballroom, the Miller ballroom, and 01:17:00it was a luncheon of a hundred people. And that was his committee of one hundred that whatever his political future was going to be, those were the people that was going to --that had been active in his campaign, and I was there, and probably the only labor person there. And he was going to keep us informed of what his political future was. To my knowledge, if there was ever another meeting, I was not invited. I mean, I was dropped. Labor was dropped. A lot of other people that could have been an albatross around his neck was dropped, and he went on, and he put it together and kindly divorced himself from labor because I think that the management people had got to him and says, 'Hey, you can't serve two masters.'

LUTZ: Ah.

MABRY: And, um, he realized that labor did not have the monies necessary to wage a campaign for governor, if it really got into one. So he ran for governor, and the labor movement probably supported him. We didn't make an endorsement of Zell in his race. And he has never appointed anyone from labor. He never appoints anybody on a committee.

LUTZ: He's taking your advice. [laughter][inaudible]

MABRY: Well, I was saying 'openly'--After he got elected, he could have easily--In this last election that he had, I had a luncheon for him. And at that luncheon, he was presented forty thousand dollars. And we were over at the Mansion Restaurant--to use in his campaign-- second campaign for governor. And 01:19:00he still has not appointed--He appointed a blue ribbon committee to study privatizing state government, and not one person was on that committee that represents the workers. He had no one from organized labor on that committee. He goes and puts the Bill Dahlbergs, and the rest of them, Chamber of Commerce and all, on that committee; and he still has--We don't have anyone on a state agency, anyone on the Board of Education--nothing, no one. So you look at it and say, 'Well, what is the need for us to get out here and be involved in politics when neither one of them are going to do anything for the working men and women?' As I said earlier in my remarks, we are further down in 01:20:00unemployment compensation, workers' compensation, and the average per capita income. We are still down there. And labor--We just think that we deserve a better shake out of what we are involved in. Zell only won by 38,000 votes. We have 350,000, and two hundred and something thousand of those are known registered. And we operated phone banks in every city in the state and then we did about three mailings during that campaign getting our people to vote for him. Then, when you don't get it, and he's in his last term, and he doesn't give you anything, so you might as well say, 'Well, hell, they're not going to.' And that is why that I say that 'Labor has to be involved.' Now, we have to be 01:21:00involved in it.

LUTZ: So you don't find yourself becoming cynical?

MABRY: No, no, no.

LUTZ: Ever hopeful?

MABRY: No. I see a day coming that we….all of it is going to level out, and you're going to find out, later on, that labor in the South will be stronger than it is in the North. When we see the people being elected to office, and I hate to put it on a racial issue. That's totally unfair, but it's a fact. The minorities in the South went through the same struggle as poor white people. I've always said the only thing worse than being poor white is being black in the South. I mean, we've struggled in the South. Hell, we had nothing, 01:22:00absolutely nothing. We, a lot of times, didn't have money to buy food when we were kids, and my parents coming up. So I know what it is. I know what it is to have and to have not. And, um, the blacks who are being elected to the legislatures and throughout the South, and the number of them that are involved. Well, you will see that eventually every election, we have a few more minorities elected; they're increasing. It's just going to be a few years -- It might not be in my lifetime. In my tenure here, I'm up next year for re-election, and I do plan to run for re-election. And, um, but, they do not 01:23:00have a majority, but in a few years, they are going to have enough that they can say, 'Hey, You want yours, you give us ours.' And we…it's important for us to support the legislative agenda of the minorities. I am very active in the…in the legislative black caucus and go to that. And you will see that at that time, you will start getting to something if we forge a relationship with them, that we can say, 'Well, if you don't want to do it, then, fine. But you're not going to get your damn legislation.' Just like when they're talking about raising taxes and raising money privatizing, I said, 'Very simple. You want to run state government, put a damn two cents a drink on soft drinks. Put two cents soft drink tax on, and watch the dome come off of everything with the Coca-Cola Company and Pepsi Cola and all of them. They don't want that, but 01:24:00they want to tax everything else. So, I mean, it's not an easy life being in the labor movement.

LUTZ: No. [laughter]

MABRY: --in Georgia, or any other southern state.

LUTZ: Sounds like you've got to have real highs or real lows.

MABRY: I am…and I'm not…I don't mean in any way in the world to boast about what I do, but I am more involved in government, more involved in community, more involved in all the different ones than any other state federation president. And they will tell you that. They will.

LUTZ: What keeps you going on this? What drives you to do it?

MABRY: Because I know that somebody needs to do it. [Electronic interruption--speakerphone.]

MABRY: But I believe that although labor may not be as strong as I would like it or as somebody, and maybe we are stronger than some people like for us to be. I believe that there has to be a balance. I don't think that labor should get a hold on government or a hold in any state where they would be the ones that was calling the shots totally and could pass anything. I think it would be unhealthy. I think it would be unhealthy if management was ever successful in doing away with organized labor. I think that we have to have a balance. Every time that you have ever heard -- or maybe not in your lifetime -- that you have ever heard talk about price --freezes on prices, on wages and prices. Every president had always hesitated in having that because of the uncertainty of what 01:26:00is going to happen to wages after it was released and what kind of inflation rate that this country might have gone in. If it were not for labor unions in this country today, we would have no barometer to know what to project the cost of labor four years down the road. And it's a healthy climate for us to have. And I've had an opportunity to go into a lot of other countries. And I've had an opportunity to go to Japan and went in and visited their manufacturing plants and the technology used there -- same we use here. And their people at that time could go to work; and when they went to work somewhere, they was almost assured as long as they kept busy and kept their job and acted right, they had a 01:27:00job for life. And, today, we see in this country where the people have been with companies for fifteen, twenty, or twenty-five years are being cut loose without any kind of benefits, no retirement whatsoever, so it is definitely a great concern. I want to touch on one thing about Zell Miller. When Zell ran the first time, there was across in front of the old Biltmore Hotel, down on Fifth Street, I guess it is, a building that looked like it was never completed called The Penthouse Apartments and it had…what -- Well, Zell knew the person that owned that, and he came to me and wanted to put a sign up there that could be seen north and southbound on the expressway, the best location of any sign in the city, or in the state, as far as that goes. And he wanted to know if we 01:28:00could do it, and I told him, 'Yeah, we could.' So we made preparations and went out and got the material. And I put on my work clothes and brought my tools and I built his sign, and we had the best sign of anybody. And then the State Highway Department notified us that we were in violation of it by having that sign up that close to the expressway and all; so we were only about 60 days, or maybe less, out from the election day, and Zell told them that we would get it down. And I, at that time, told Zell, I says, 'Zell, there is an appeal method about their decision.' And I said, 'You go file an appeal on them and ask for a hearing, and by the time they have the hearing, the campaign will be over.' So 01:29:00he filed an appeal on it, and we got to keep it up there until after the election, and he used to--would say that he was the only candidate that ever got the state AFL-CIO of any state to put on their workclothes and go put up a sign. And I did that for him, so I guess that is the reason, going back and looking at it, why we expected--or why I expected a better shake than what I think that we have gotten out of it. But labor, at one time, was strong, and labor became weak. But labor will come back. Believe me, labor will come back stronger than they have ever been. And I just hope they don't get too strong. I just hope that labor does not--and people in the labor movement say, well, why would you 01:30:00say that, Herb? But I believe we could be too strong. I believe it would be unhealthy for us, unhealthy for them. I think there has to be a check and balance, instead of us getting up every morning, and management getting up every morning and say, 'What can we do to one another today, to get even with them, and be an adversary?' we should be able to get up every morning and say, 'What can we do to benefit the management, and at the same time, benefit our people?'--work harmoniously together to achieve what they want. We realize, or we should, that management has to show a return in order to be able to attract investors to expand their businesses and to create jobs. And if we don't do that, we are very, very farsighted.

LUTZ: Can you think of any examples of good labor management-cooperation in 01:31:00this state--besides Superior Printing, which everyone tells me is a good example.

MABRY: Well, Superior Printing is a very, very unusual situation. And they have there -- the Carters that owned that was just unbelievable, but there is -- I'm sure that they are not as good as they once was. But you have a lot of companies that would welcome the unions they have, and they respect those unions. But the more non-union plants that open up, the harder it is for those people to stay union. I disagree with the Governor on privatizing. You may be--It may be a short fix for a serious problem. If the Governor wants to 01:32:00privatize, he has to take a look, in my opinion, that are we going to require those people that enter into a contract with this state to have a health and welfare and a retirement system in place for those employed? If not, the state's going to save money by not having to have those programs, but we are going to pass it on to our children because those people that have no retirement and no health care are become a ward of the state, later on; and the taxes will have to be raised to provide that--unless there is something in the package when they privatize. I cannot see them privatizing and saving money. I think privatizing comes more of an opportunity for people in government to reward 01:33:00their heavy contributors by giving them the lucrative contract on what they are doing.

LUTZ: Yeah. You know, you've got a unique perspective on the state, so excuse me for asking a couple more questions about politics. [laughter]

MABRY: I don't have any problem at all. I'll sit here and talk. The TV cameras and all used to -- The cameramen would come to interview me about a situation, and they'd say 'Well, Herb, you're a good one to interview. All we had to do is ask you one question, and you take up all of our time.'

LUTZ: That's good. Interviewers love that.

MABRY: All right, let's talk about it.

LUTZ: All right, tell me about Sam Caldwell. What happened to poor Sam Caldwell.

MABRY: Sam Caldwell got caught up in a system, in my opinion. Sam Caldwell was never—he is…I would have loved to maybe live next to Sam Caldwell. I think 01:34:00he was a fine person, and I really don't take that away from him. Sam Caldwell gave a lot of people a chance that they would possibly have never had. He hired some people--and it later on haunted him--that had been in trouble with drugs and things like that. But my answer to that was on a call-in show one night that I was on, something was said about hiring them, and I says, 'If we are going to fund a penal system and try to rehabilitate people, then we are going to have to be willing to take the second chance with those people and give them a job to give them an opportunity to be productive. Well, every time I went on a show anywhere that same lady would call in and talk about me favoring employing drug people. That young fellow that got caught with marijuana one time and they did--but Sam--Sam Caldwell, when he came into office, he had every 01:35:00opportunity to do a good job. The labor people swore by him, but I never was a great fan of Sam Caldwell. Sam Caldwell was one of those politicians, and we have a lot of them, that took our money--and, as Marvin Griffin said, that they ate his barbecue but they didn't vote for him.And Sam, when he left office, we were not any better off percentage-wise on unemployment benefits than we were when he went in. Now there was a great difference, and people have to understand the role of it. The automobile workers--when they are laid off would 01:36:00shift change--There is a fund that they draw about two-thirds of their salary while they are laid off, so, consequently, benefit increases didn't mean as much to them as the liberal policy of being able to qualify did. That, I fault…I don't find any fault with the automobile workers. That was a good system they had. So something that would mean a lot to them would not benefit at all the people out here in the trades that would work. And when the job was over, they were laid off until they got another job. So benefits meant a hell of a lot to them. So we had a disagreement, and the UAW…

LUTZ: [inaudible]

MABRY: They lost a lot of members, and then as their members went down, the 01:37:00membership went down and all, they were not able to do as much. But we did not increase…we did not increase benefits, in my opinion, in keeping with what it was. The unemployment system is -- a lot of it is law, and a lot of it is policy. And they could--The policy meant more then to the automobile workers than it did -- And they were powerful, and they were strong supporters of it. And so Caldwell -- He had the support, and he had a lot of people with us that really thought he was great. But we never did, and I was not happy with him at all; and Sam knew that. And we -- He got caught up in some of the legislators 01:38:00that was over there, and Sam could--was in a position to hire anybody that a legislator had a favor to pay, they could call Sam Caldwell, and he could put him on with the labor department. And so, consequently, now they -- They swore by Sam, swore by Sam. And I--If Sam Caldwell was sitting right over here right now, I would tell him, 'Sam, I disagree with you.' And I told him that. And--But he was a friend. He was a friend, but I just disagreed. I disagr…..friendship ceases with me when someone is not doing my people right. And I have a hard time with it, and I fight for what I believe that our people are entitled to. And we're not getting it in this state. We're not getting a fair shake.

LUTZ: Okay, now I am going to ask you to look into your crystal ball. I've already looked in mine, and I see Max Cleland as the next Senator replacing Sam 01:39:00Nunn. If he did, do you think he'd be a good one?

MABRY: Um, number one, I don't believe Sam can win—if…I mean, Max.

LUTZ: Max.

MABRY: I don't believe that Max can win a seat, for senate. I think that Max Cleland can stay where he is as long as he wants the job. I have problems with Max. I went to Max ever since he had been Secretary of State. I believe and am a strong believer in that we should give everyone a right to vote. We tried to get postcard registration, and Max fought me ever since I had been trying to get it. And, then, I believe that when a person moved into this state or a person 01:40:00went to their bank, or they went to sign up for mail when they had moved, that they should be able to pick up a form there, just the same and register and send it in and then have them to mail it in. Labor has become a reality by motor voting after all these years. And Sam now brags about motor voters, but, hell, he fought me on postcard registration. He said there was too much of a chance for fraud in it. I attempted for years -- years to get every registered voter on a file at the Democratic Party. And finally the Labor Movement put the $20,000 up in order to get it started within the Democratic Party, and never would have gotten it if it hadn't been for Bert Lance. Bert Lance helped us get 01:41:00that up there, and we got it; and they didn't want it because they said that the Republicans, then, would get theirs and start recruiting people in. I said, 'The Republicans already have it. Don't even worry about them.' So we got it in to--up there where we would have it. So I went to Max--And I said, 'Max, the Democratic Party does not have the money to do it. The Republicans has plenty of money. Now, why don't you put it in that you will operate a centralized voters' list in the Secretary of State's office; and if Herb Mabry wants a list of labels for a state senate district, then I have to pay for it. But at least the individual that's buying them will pay for them and not the party. And I says, 'Then, if a Republican wants a list of theirs, they can get it because it's available in a primary as to which party you are voting in.' General 01:42:00election's a different story. But they can get theirs. And instead of them having to operate one, us operate one, you operate it here. And I says, 'In South Carolina, they've got it that way. And it's operating in the Secretary of State's office, and they used prisoners and trained them to do keypunching, and it didn't cost anybody anything.' And he never would do that. He would not make a move to do a damn thing. Max Cleland has the reputation around Washington as being the sorriest administrator that Carter brought to Washington…

LUTZ: Is that right?

MABRY: …within the Veteran's Administration. And, um…

LUTZ: Who do you think is going to replace Nunn?

MABRY: I don't know. It's interesting. It's very, very interesting. I hope what I have had run through my mind -- I hope it's not true. I just have a sense that Sam made his announcement that he is going to quit. He…he is 01:43:00dissatisfied with Clinton. Now, the person that really introduced me to Clinton was Sam Nunn, through the Democratic Leadership Council. I went to New Orleans and attended one of their conferences down there. And Clinton was there. Nunn was there. And all of the young movers and -- And I think of them as being 'young movers and shakers' then. And so they--But Sam and Clinton had a falling out somewhere. I mean, just disagreement over policy, I guess. But it concerns me a good bit as to whether or not--and if you noted the other day, Sam in his statement said that the Democrats were not willing and wanted to continue to 01:44:00hold on to the methods that was not working--something similar to that--the progra And that the Republicans had gone too far. So what does that tell you? He's in the middle.

LUTZ: Yeah.

MABRY: I believe that Sam Nunn, and I hope I'm wrong, is going to switch and be a candidate for President of the United States on the Republican ticket.

LUTZ: Well, I hope you're wrong, too.

MABRY: I hope I'm wrong.

LUTZ: Yeah.

MABRY: But you think about what he said and how he went out because most of the support that Sam Nunn has today -- major support -- are Republicans, but it's people that deal with him--He could get elected as a Democrat and serve the Republicans. And that's what he's done. Sam Nunn has never been a friend of ours--never been a friend. Every now and then he would vote for something, and 01:45:00you know, but he has never been a friend of ours.

LUTZ: Well, that would solve the Republican's Colin Powell problem, too.

MABRY: Colin Powell has never been tried out and see where he stands on the issues. He's always had a free hand and never had to take a position. Someone else took the position, so he had that. And I think that you saw the other night if you was watching TV, the Republicans in Warner Robins down in Perry and down in that area were talking about him, saying he had been good for that area. But they loved him because he brought that money into that area down there. And that's what--If a person wants to criticize the Democrat for holding on and wants to criticize the Republicans for going too far, well, you take the half of the Democrats who believe that and half of the Republicans who believe it, and 01:46:00it puts him right in the middle. So, I mean, that could be a possibility, or he is thinking about a run at it and bring somebody in--He might run as a Democrat and bring somebody with the Republican Party in as vice president, and run. You never know. I just don't believe he's through. I just do not believe that. And I have had an opportunity--I have become, over the years, very close, and it's hard to even to imagine somebody in my position becoming very good friends with Jay Rockefeller. And Jay Rockefeller--the last time he was in this city, he called me, and I went over to the hotel and met with him a few minutes, and he told me he had to be at the airport. So, he said, 'Herb, come on and ride with me to the airport, and the guy'll bring you back and put you out.' And I 01:47:00rode out to the airport with him. Sharon, his wife, and I -- We served on the Democratic National Committee together. And so he is -- Jay, you know, had a short flirt with running for President last time himself. But people that I have worked with down through the years and the things that we have fought for, I-- and talk about being involved, I serve on the Board of Southern Association of Accreditation for Colleges and Schools.

LUTZ: This brings me exactly to what I wanted to ask you about. Your walls are filled with certificates and awards from different causes that you've been involved in.

MABRY: I've got a boxful sitting right over there. [inaudible]

LUTZ: [laughter] Setting aside for the moment the labor movement itself or the 01:48:00Carpenters themselves, and politics itself, the Democratic Party--which of those causes were dearest to your heart?

MABRY: One of them--I guess--one of them was Muscular Dystrophy.

LUTZ: Okay, why? S…

MABRY: Well, seeing young people that are crippled by a dreadful disease, that never had an opportunity in life, and to see the dedication on them and the hopes that they have and all, I was very much involved in that. The -- A lot of causes that I have been involved in on a short term basis -- Now, I served as, I think, three times with Muscular Dystrophy, and then I served on the leukemia board and was a member of the National Leukemia -- a trustee on the National Leukemia-- I was somewhat disappointed with the leukemia because they brought 01:49:00you in as a trustee, and we didn't discuss the issues. They just told us what it was, and we voted. And I just thought--I am Chairman of the Georgia Trade Union Council for Histadrut, the Israeli labor movement. It's the chapter here. And I have worked very closely with the Jewish community.

LUTZ: What inspired you to get involved so closely with that?

MABRY: With the Jewish community, I felt--

LUTZ: With Histadrut--

MABRY: With Histadrut--I felt that in '48, when Israel became a state, Histadrut provided all of the services in Israel for the people. They were the only government there-- I mean, it was labor government, and they provided that. And, then, the people, what they were going through and what they were trying to 01:50:00do and promote and we were helping through--the labor movement here helping the labor movement there and to help them. And we had fundraisers. I was honored once and others were. And we raised over a hundred thousand, I think it was--to help equip a pediatric clinic in Israel. It was just something that got--Just like the party here got involved in the party and really got active. And anyone who has--You know, the things that I'm involved in--a training program in Israel that they used. I have been on the Board and served with that. And I was 01:51:00co-chair of a dinner that honored Max Cleland. I think that--Ted Turner and I co-chaired that together. And, um…

LUTZ: Life is full of irony, isn't it? [laughter]

MABRY: Oh, yes, and you get to talking, and the more you talk about these things--I served on the Board at the King Center, and I thought that I would be able to have--make a contribution to that. But we went--the Board would go into a meeting, and our Board was not to set any kind of policy. We would hear a report from the president as to what she had done, and then we would approve it. It had already been implemented. We would approve it. And I have no real problem with that. It's just the fact that they did not need me, necessarily, to approve the things.

LUTZ: That brings to mind something that several people have told me: Talk to Herb Mabry about the civil rights movement in Georgia--because they say that you were very important in bringing civil rights and labor together. Would you agree with that assessment?

MABRY: When I took office here, and you keep in mind, Chris, that most of the people--Now, this is frightening for me, but most of the people that are in the labor movement today were not even born when I took over as President of the AFL-CIO. I mean, I have been here for 27 years, and so the younger people coming in the labor movement--or they were eight years old or nine years old and never knew anyone else to be head of the AFL-CIO. My Carpenters never knew any 01:53:00other president to be President of the Carpenters. And so I have been involved. I've been very fortunate that I was able to change with the times and attract and make friends and draw people that were coming into this labor movement that had a whole different idea from most of the people in the labor movement. But those people coming into this labor movement, I shared their views long before they were here. But when we--when I first had taken over as President of the AFL-CIO, my predecessor, and he was a good man--He was a good man. He just had some views, and they were segregationist views. He had a lot of friends that were in the black community. He got along with them all, but as far as letting them come in and all like that, he was just not willing to do that. So when I became president of this organization, there was a vacancy on our Board down in 01:54:00Albany, Georgia, the second district. We had a vice-president from every Congressional district. The second district was in Albany, and there was a guy by the name of Charlie Hall who was a board member here. He was out at the IBEW, and he had gotten transferred with the company he was with wanting him to go, and he had to give up the job, and he resigned. It was the responsibility of the Board, the Executive Board, to appoint someone. And they had a -- and it was not binding, but they had an election down in Albany at the Labor Council, and anybody that wanted to run for the vice-presidency, did. And the black guy that won it was Ken English. Now, do you know Ken? He's a graduate of the school over there --

LUTZ: [Inaudible]. Yeah.

MABRY: So Ken was elected, and they was going to recommend him to Moore to make the appointment. So when they sent the name of the black man up here, Moore would not follow through with that recommendation, and he said, 'Well, we'll deal with it at the convention.' He didn't live until the next convention. And Ken English was--So Montague took over. He was Executive Vice President. He took over. And this -- I ran it, as secretary; I was the only one here. And he called a meeting of the Board and told them that he would continue as Executive Vice President, but he wasn't going to give up his job, and he would like to ask the Board to confirm me as President to fill out the unexpired term of Moore, which they did. And before I took the job, I told them, I said, 'There's one 01:56:00thing that I want all of you to understand--that I am going to abide by the wishes and the vote of the Albany Labor Council, and I'm going to appoint Ken English as the Board member.' Had no problem. No problem. It was just a question of leadership whether I would do that or not. And I did, and Ken became the Board member. When Jimmy Carter was elected President of the United States, they offered me the Regional Director here of the U. S. Department of Labor, and I turned it down. I told them that I would turn it down because I thought I could be more of a help to his administration on the outside than I could working in a Labor Department, and I told them that I would like to ask as 01:57:00a favor for me to put Ken English as Regional Director, and they did. And he was appointed. But when we first made the endorsement of -- when we endorsed Andy Young over Wyche Fowler for Congress. And, we, um, and then, Andy--anyhow, we made that endorsement, and then it came out in the newspaper and the radio that night, that we had made the endorsement of Andy Young. And when I got home that night, my doors were locked. Back then, we didn't even have to lock our doors. I mean, we never had any problems. And we had so many children, they 01:58:00were going in and out, so we couldn't very well furnish them all a key, but they -- The doors were locked, and the lights was out, and I knocked on the door, and I didn't have a key to get in, so they came and saw it was me. And they had the doors locked. They were scared to death. Somebody had called and told them, says, 'Tell your daddy he might endorse that black son of a bitch, but we'll get his white ass before the night's over.' So it had them all scared to death, and we--before anybody would go out in the mornings and crank their cars, we had scotch-taped across the hood, and checked it to see if it had been broken before we would crank the cars and all. And we went through some turbulent years and a lot of harassment and all by the people doing it. And I had people to walk out of my union meetings and tell them that I was just going to turn it over to the 01:59:00damn blacks and they would walk out. But, Chris, I think right prevails. I have been president over there since 1969, and I'm the only officer over there that survived it. And, then, my tenure here. And we--My predecessor would not work with the black community, so we had an AFL-CIO Civil Rights Southern Director, the only one--the only damn one in the United States had ever been. They didn't have a Western Director or anything. We had a Southern Director, a guy by the name of Al Kehrer. All right, Al Kehrer worked with the black community. Then, when I came in here, when I became president, then he would not turn loose. He would not turn loose. He still wanted them to answer to 02:00:00him. Well, I couldn't have him -- them answering to him and me trying to coordinate the labor movement and civil rights here. So I finally had to go to Washington, and they sent someone in here. And they sent Don Slaiman, who--Don and I had some turbulent times, too, because he had always dealt with somebody who wasn't interested in cultivating that relationship, and I had been involved with the black community long before I got involved in this labor movement here by the fact that I was very active in Senator Leroy Johnson's campaign when he became the first senator, and I was with him the night of the election and in his campaign office over here on Hunter Street--Martin Luther King now, but it was Hunter Street then. And I had been with him, and I had a good relationship with him and Dr. C. Clayton Powell, who was a staunch Republican back then, 02:01:00here, and that is where I first met Dr. King was with Leroy Johnson. And then so I…I was active in the black community and with them and everything, worked with them on some of their sit-ins, and with Ben Brown and Carolyn Albrecht, Julian Bond, and all that bunch.

LUTZ: Do you think that maybe those people from Washington were just assuming that you were a bigot because you are from the South?

MABRY: I'm sure that they thought that I was just a continuation of what had been in the past, and so I was not given a chance, though, to prove to them that that was not true. So I had to take a stand. And they sent them in here and had a hearing out at the Holiday Inn, I think it was, one of those out at the airport--motels there. We had a big meeting. A lot of people came in here. And I was out there by myself, you know, defending my position. And I was 02:02:00trying to get them to remove the Civil Rights Director and give me an opportunity to work within the black community and to get them to working with me instead of high-tailing it over to him and I didn't know what was going on. And that Don Slaiman was talking about, you know, that Al was a good fellow, and all like that, and when he was talking about that, he put it on a personal basis instead of a professional basis, that I thought it should have been in--'Although he's a good fellow'-- it was not our system--I'm not being able to work with any system with it, and he was talking about Al being a good fellow, and I said, 'Well, I'll tell you what, if he's such a goddamn good feller, you take him to Washington and put him in your office and let me run this state down here.' He said, 'Well, you don't have to say it like that.' I said, 'I don't 02:03:00believe you understand anything else.' I said, 'I'm telling you that I want to work and build a labor movement here, and you aren't willing to let me do it.' And they never did--But the blacks started working with me. He would—he…and finally they retired him. But I was involved--Any black person that holds office today, we were involved in their campaign.

LUTZ: Tell me about the Johnson campaign. I was just reading about that a little bit the other day.

MABRY: Well, that was when they ordered reapportionment, so when they reapportioned, they created a district, a senatorial district that was part of the 38th, I believe, the 38th senatorial district--that may not be the one, but Leroy qualified for that seat, and we were involved in--just right here now, I 02:04:00cannot even tell you who we were in a race with, but we worked hard in that race, and I helped Leroy, and I was not here. And Leroy Johnson and I have remained good friends ever since. We are still good friends. They hung his picture up in the Senate--or in the Capitol, and I was not able to attend it, but I was invited to attend it. Most of the—I guess that, really, we've always had it among the whites, but the whites was in power, and when one of the white officials messed up, you didn't really think anything about it, I mean, that was just one of them. But to see when we -- when Leroy got in trouble with Internal Revenue and all, it hurt because he was the first black, and we were 02:05:00really trying to -- and then we go on and we see the county commissioners get in -- Chuck Williams get in trouble up there in the county commission for allegedly taking bribes, and he went to prison. And then Reginald Eaves got in trouble by the same way, and then we saw our sheriff get in trouble by doing that. Well, it, to me, hurt more because I felt that not only they had let themselves down, but they had let the blacks down that had struggled so hard to get ahead and they were in a position to really speak for them. And I tell them--and I tell all of the people, if one thing you could single out, I do not believe that the 02:06:00black elected officials speak up for the issues that concern the blacks enough. I think they pick on issues, but it's not the damn issues that would put bread and butter on their table or give them a better place to live. And they fight over issues that I don't think are the right issues.

LUTZ: You know, thinking about them as symbols makes me think that you, too, are a symbol. I mean, you are a symbol of the labor movement in Georgia.

MABRY: Right.

LUTZ: Is it tough being a symbol?

MABRY: Yes, yes. Everywhere I go--and this is a credit to me, but it's a slam on my people, they say, 'Herbert'--or call me 'Herb,' say, 'Herb, how can someone as nice as you and think like you end up in the labor movement'?' That's an indictment against the labor movement, that the labor movement is not made up of good people. And I will tell anybody, I have…I served, and am proud of it, 02:07:00as Chairman of the Board of Deacons in my church, the First Baptist Church of Sandy Springs. I have been affiliated and involved with people all over the United States, and there is not a state that I go in that I do not know people in that state and know them well. I have never met a group of people that was any finer than they are in organized labor. But, hell, you have rotten apples in everything you go after. We see that Dr. Stanley at the First Baptist Church, he and his wife can't even get along--So how do you get along with everybody else? And you might have a few rotten apples in the labor movement, people that have abused the power that they had as labor officials for their own use, rather than the benefit of the people that they were elected to represent, 02:08:00but you don't have a bushel of apples and a rotten one in it and throw the whole bushel away, you get rid of the damn rotten apple. And I think it's sad that they would indict people, and you only had to listen to the talk radio here to find out how they do indict other people.

LUTZ: It's chilling.

MABRY: It is. It's chilling to think that they are opposed to an increase in minimum wage—and so many of our people--We will ask them to write their Congressman about an issue that affects us, and they won't do it. You let the Rif….you let the National Rifle Association--send them a message to write their congressman about something on guns, and they'll write them two or three letters. And so it's where they put their priorities, and their priorities are just unbelievable, that what they do.

LUTZ: You mentioned being a deacon in your church, um, and I'm glad you did. I don't really [inaudible] because I wanted to ask you: Do you feel that religion is congruent with your labor work? Obviously, you do. And why?

MABRY: I think it is with any work. I feel really sorry for anybody--If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything. And I just--I just believe and I use it -- and a lot of people may not understand it -- but if you was a country girl or a country boy and where they had animals, that you see an old hog out under an acorn tree, and an acorn falls off the tree, he looks up to see where it came from. So there is something up there that made it possible, and someone made it possible for you and I to be here. And I just believe--And I'm 02:10:00not a religious fanatic. I was not necessarily in favor of the Georgia Lottery, and I believe that the money that's being spent for the Georgia Lottery is coming from the people that can least afford to pay, the heaviest districts in lottery ticket sales are right here where you and I are sitting today in these surrounding areas here. I could go buy me a lottery ticket, five dollars every week, and I would never miss the money. Um, and um, but I know I'm not going to hit that lottery, so I don't buy it. I have bought lottery tickets. I've bought lottery tickets when it gets up to forty million dollars or twenty-five—[laughter] I'll say, 'Well, what the devil,' and I'll waste a couple of dollars. But I am not a fanatic to the fact that I would get out here and lead a crusade to outlaw it. And I am not a fanatic--I believe if you want 02:11:00to take a glass of wine or have a drink in your home, that's your business. I don't see anything bad wrong with that. Now, a lot of Baptists do. I mean, I don't take it--But I have strong principles about some things. And I just think that when we completely leave--whether you are a Christian, or you are a Jew, a Muslim, whatever you might be, I mean, I just think there is some value in it and it is important for us to hold to those values.

LUTZ: You would be surprised at the number of people, of union people, I've interviewed who have said something very similar to that.

MABRY: Sure, that's what I'm telling you. They think that union people are a bunch of thugs.

LUTZ: That's right.

MABRY: And we're not. We're not thugs. I want for my family the same thing that everybody wants for theirs. I want them to be able to get the best education. I want them to be able to live in a decent home. I want them to be 02:12:00raised in a safe atmosphere. That's what the people want, and that's what we want.

LUTZ: Did you ever think --[Electronic lights and sounds] back as a young--Let's say 1949, you are a young man--married then, just newly married…or recently married?

MABRY: Yeah, in '48-- married. November of '48--

LUTZ: A young man starting out. Did you ever think you would end up here?

MABRY: No, never did think where I'd end up. I'll tell you why. We never had--We were from old, loving parents, had good family home, good family home, and worked day and night to provide for us, and they did a pretty damn good job in the Depression years and all, raising us. But it was never discussed in our home as to what we were going to be--what our goal was. I mean, our goal was to survive--not plan for the future. Today, the children have a much better 02:13:00opportunity because it's in the home as to what they are going to set for themselves, and to show you how it changed, I did not have an opportunity--could not have gone to college. Could not have. I mean, just didn't have any money and didn't have money to buy a lot of things that was needed to go, and we couldn't have paid it if we went. So, therefore--and the student loans were unheard of 60 years ago, 50 years ago--

LUTZ: Plus you have to repay those things.

MABRY: Um, yeah, and so we couldn't. But I never dreamed that if a kid had an opportunity to go to college that they would not go. We have six children. Our oldest daughter finished high school, and she would not enter college. I said, 'Sandra, you go to college. Go to college. Go one year, and if you don't like it, quit. Just give yourself a try.' She said, 'Daddy, I don't want to go to 02:14:00college.' She lives out in Roswell. They have a nice home. Her husband is a small contractor. She raised three daughters, and just the most lovely three people, kids, you ever saw in your life. And they have been able to provide. She doesn't work outside the home. He does. She tools around with a little ole job--class reunions, locating the people, getting some money. And, but, they have a nice home, a hell of a lot better than what I live in. And she wouldn't go to college, didn't want to go. Fine. She did well. Then, we have our oldest son finishing University of Georgia. My next daughter is a CPA, got her own business, and she went to the University of Georgia; and then we had one son that went to Georgia Tech, and he got on some of that stuff that so many of them 02:15:00do, and he was on a football scholarship; and finally dropped out. He's just been a wanderer for ten or twelve years now. And then, we have twin boys that went to college. One of them went to Young Harris awhile. Philip went to West Georgia and different colleges; and we financed about a six year party for them; and they just didn't apply themselves and go on. And they both have--One of them I talked with while ago--He's in data processing up at the county; and Paul is the other one of the twins; he's with Georgia Power Company in the land acquisition department and has a good job, so--But that is something that--and they, you know--they just want their children to get a good education, and 02:16:00that's the same way. And I think it's important that each generation improves over the one before. If we will continue that--If we don't, we're going backwards. You can't stand still in life. You can't keep the status quo. You go frontward or you go backward. And so I think that it is very important for us, and that was the sole reason that management don't like labor unions. They wanted to keep us ignorant and poor, and they almost succeeded. But we were able to overcome it, and they--I think that the labor unions are very much involved and want to be involved. And just like you say, most of the people that you talk to about their religious values, Christian values, or religious values, whichever one it might be, they'll tell you the same thing.

LUTZ: Um, it's been a long, strange road, hasn't it? Is there a piece that you would re-live for better or worse, because it was so great or was so terrible? What would you do again, if you could?

MABRY: I believe -- something that we haven't mentioned. In the early sixties, I enrolled in Woodrow Wilson Law School. I wanted to be a lawyer, and I went to school at night. We had our six children; and our twins were born prematurely, and when they came out of the hospital--When we went in, we had no hospitalization. And we were expecting a normal pregnancy. We did not even 02:18:00know until the day they were born that they were twins. And the doctor didn't know it, never had told us--Naturally, they couldn't tell us if they didn't know it. And they stayed in the hospital, and they came out, and it was back in '58, and the hospital bill was twelve thousand and something dollars and the doctors….so we owed about as many people as we didn't owe. I mean, we had it rough. We had four children and then those two, and paying off all of that. And I had to take a second job. I was carpentering in the daytime, and of all things, I went to selling cemetery lots at night for Arlington Cemetery out in Sandy Springs. So I worked there at night and sold. And, finally, I went to work as manager, then, of the Greenlawn Cemetery up in Roswell--full time; and, then, I went over in Dallas, Georgia, and bought ten acres of land and developed a cemetery of my own, and I still own it today.

LUTZ: Paulding County?

MABRY: No, Paulding County--

LUTZ: Okay.

MABRY: Up in Dallas, Georgia.

LUTZ: Okay.

MABRY: That's where Julian Bond and his first wife got married.

LUTZ: [Inaudible] [laughter]

MABRY: [Inaudible] [laughter]

MABRY: It's thirty-five miles west of here, and I developed it and developed it myself, and I would work in the daytime and sell lots and develop my cemetery on the weekends. But I still have it. And, um…

LUTZ: But that was a tough time.

MABRY: It was tough. Oh, it was tough. It was tough times, and I had to--I was not able to keep up the pace of studying and keeping two jobs and going to law school. So I had to quit, and I…I got a good bit of law. I studied agency and contracts and labor law, and things of that nature, which has helped me a lot here. And I…when I….and the things that you get in for some 02:20:00reason--Back when I started the cemetery, there was some talk about anybody that sold real estate, whether it was cemetery lots or what, had to be a licensed real estate agent. So I went and got my real estate salesman's license; and, then, after three years, well, I went down and took the test, and I got my real estate broker's license. And I have Mabry Realty Company today, but I never sell anything. I just keep it. I just…I just keep it up.

LUTZ: Well, it's ready, just in case.

MABRY: It's ready if I ever have to have it. So I believe if I had to do over again, I would tough it out, and I would have gone to law school, but I'm not sure that being an attorney would have been as rewarding as having an opportunity to serve in this office. There are very few people--very few people in this country that have an opportunity--I was at the state dinner where the 02:21:00peace treaty was signed between Israel and….wait….

LUTZ: Egypt?

MABRY: No, Begin and Sadat--

LUTZ: Yeah.

MABRY: Yeah, okay--

LUTZ: That was twenty years ago.

MABRY: Yeah, and, um, I was at that and had an opportunity to go to the White House and -- and I'm Protestant. Here I am up there with the Pope when he was invited to the White House years ago. I was up there with him. And I had an opportunity to go into the White House with Clinton.

LUTZ: What is going into the White House like?

MABRY: Well, it is…you get the feeling that you are right there in the center of the power. You are right there where it happens. I was in the…I was in 02:22:00the White House--I went up right after Clinton became President--maybe six months after, and I was in a meeting on the lower level, and everybody--We finished the meeting, and everybody was walking out, and I was standing there talking to someone, and I heard someone walking down the steps, and I looked around, and I did a double take, and it was Hillary and another lady coming down in their tennis suits, and they had their tennis rackets in their hands and started on out. And she said, 'Oh, I'm sorry. We thought everyone was gone.' And I said, 'Well, your thought being wrong was our luck. We got to talk to you, anyway.' And, um, so we were walking on out and walked down through there. And I told her, I said, 'Hillary, I want to tell you as President of the AFL-CIO--I said, I know you don't remember it, but I said, I met you when Bill 02:23:00was on the Presidential campaign at that time at WSB.' She said, 'You were in the basement at the reception.' It was a very small reception but the International Committeeman--I was there. And she remembered it, but she didn't remember who I was. And I told her I wanted her to know how much I appreciated what she was doing in health care and all that I had just had a report--I was down in San Diego to a meeting with the labor movement, and they had reported on what all she was doing. And she was the easiest person to talk to--just stood there for 15 minutes there in the White House talking to her, and the other lady was there--about her involvement and what she was doing --

LUTZ: [inaudible] Okay, we left off on Hillary, and you were saying what it felt like to be able to--

MABRY: Yeah, I mean, just to be there where it happens, and then you go back and 02:24:00talk--I have had an opportunity to be -- to meet and be with President Carter, very close friend of his -- meet and be and a friend of Bill Clinton's and to have an opportunity then to share a podium with Gerald Ford, and the one person that I never had an opportunity to be around, never met him, was Nixon. I was never around him, now, I did not--Nixon was not our friend as far as Labor was concerned, but I never condemned Nixon for the Watergate as much as a lot of people did. I believe that in a political campaign, the people that were there on his staff was wanting to make sure that they were re-elected. And they did some unethical things and bordered on things that were criminal—and, well, 02:25:00they were criminal, some of them. But I never believed that Nixon knew that it was happening until after it happened. And then, he made his mistake of going along and perpetuating a coverup. And rather than to say, 'Hey, they did it. They are going to have to suffer the consequences. They did not have my permission to go in, and never would I give it' and it would have been over. I mean, it would have been over. The whole coverup was that he just kept on. But that's neither here nor there. I was out in California, the wife and I--I was in a meeting. She went with me. And we had some spare time on Sunday, and we had an opportunity to go to church down at the Crystal Cathedral, and we then caught a city bus and rode out to the Truman Library--I mean, the Nixon Library. 02:26:00And went and saw the house he was raised in and then went to his library and enjoyed it immensely, but I never had an opportunity to meet him. I was a great admirer of Harry Truman and was young and did not know, other than what I have read, about Roosevelt and what all he did for us. But never -- and then John Kennedy, of course, was not around, and Johnson—I know that…I was never was around them. But to have an opportunity to meet the Presidents of the United States and be involved with them in different things is a great reward. And it takes a lot away from your perspective of the Presidency. Someone that's never 02:27:00been to the White House and never had an opportunity to meet in person, a President--and this is not going to sound very good--they still have that President's up there on a pedestal--I mean, that's just something, but, then, once you are in a campaign with somebody and they become President, you realize more and more, they are just like we are. They were--got the breaks. They got the vote. They became President. It did not make them any more of a person in the sight of God, but they had an important position. And Gerald Ford--I had an opportunity to be with him, and I was standing within, I would say, thirty feet, at the most, of Reagan when he was shot. And he came out of the entrance for the VIPs out of the Washington Hilton, and I was standing at the door of the 02:28:00hotel. He had just spoken to the building trades, and so I went walking--I was coming out, and just as I was coming out, he came out of the tunnel where they load and unload the dignitaries, and, um, the, um, and just as I walked out, I heard--I did not hear the bullet, but just as I walked out, I saw them grab the President and push him into the car. And, then, I saw two of the secret service back up against the wall and open their coats and pull those machine guns out from under there, and they stood back and told everybody to stay back. I mean, if somebody had started at one of them, everybody there would have been shot, probably.

LUTZ: What was your first thought when you saw it happen?

MABRY: I did not know what had happened. I thought--I never knew the President--and they didn't either--that he'd been hit. I just saw them grab him and push him in the back seat of that car. To get him out [Inaudible]

LUTZ: [inaudible] no Harry Truman.

MABRY: Yeah. That's right.

LUTZ: One more question, and then I'll let you get on back to your real job.

MABRY: Okay.

LUTZ: If you could stand on a stage and the audience would be full of young union members, and you could give them any advice you wanted to--you have a few minutes to talk to, let's say, every young union member around, what would be the advice you would give them?

MABRY: My advice for them was for them to be involved in their union, have an understanding of their union, but also study and have an understanding of the people that they work for and to make every effort they possibly could to do the job and to achieve a relationship with them that would be beneficial to both--not to be the extreme on either side and to be a part of the community, put back something that you have taken out, and just use it for a vehicle. And 02:30:00I think if we--I think that there is a guy with the Textile Manufacturing Association here, Roy Bowman. Textile Manufacturing has been dominant in politics here forever. I call them the "Wool Hat Boys." Used to--the textile manufacturers, and all these plants around, they were the largest employer. No one was going to go against them. They got anything they wanted, and Roy is their person like I am with the labor movement. And I said to him one day, I said, 'Roy, I believe'--We were discussing Workers' Comp--And I said, 'If they'd listen to us, you and I could go in a room and write a Workers' Comp bill, if we could get it passed, would be what we need.' And he said, 'Herb, I don't doubt that one minute.' He said, 'We could go in there and do it.' But when you have 02:31:00lawyers involved in it, that's got to get a piece of the pie; and you have doctors that's got to get a piece of it; and you have the rehab people that's had to get a piece of it--then all of the other, and the cost of it--and no one has looked after the injured worker.' And that's the thing, and unemployment--Unemployment compensation is a Godsend because someone--you take--if we had a massive layoff tomorrow, and the people--The unemployment rose to eight, nine, ten percent, the people that had purchased cars, people that had apartments rented, people that had bought furniture and all, and owed these people, could not pay it. And it's a little bit of compensation. They are not taking it and going on vacation. They are buying groceries and putting that money back in the economy. They are paying their utility bills. They are paying their house payments, even partially, and their cars. And it helps keep the economy going. And I think the business community don't understand. I just 02:32:00don't think they understand.

LUTZ: Well, I'm going to -- [Recorder off.]