Charles Moss oral history interview, 1994-12-21

MARCIA FISHMAN: Okay, [inaudible] this is an interview with Charlie Moss from GCIU, Graphics Communications International Union, Local 527 S. We are here at the union headquarters on December 21st, 1994, and the interview is being conducted by Marcia Fishman. I think we are about ready to get started. So, you can start out by talking about, first of all, when…when and where you were born.

CHARLES MOSS: I was, um, born in North Fulton County, in 19…August 24, 1926. I was raised on a farm. Um, finished high school at Milton High, Alpharetta, Georgia. Um, st…tarted working for the Atlanta Paper Company in 1943 or 00:01:00'44, I'm not exactly sure what year that was. I was terminated for a crime to organize the plant in 1945.

FISHMAN: Let me ask you a few questions about…about growing up out there. What…what town is out there now where your farm was?

MOSS: Well, it's Alpharetta. I was born and raised about half way between Alpharetta and Duluth, Georgia.

FISHMAN: What did you grow there?

MOSS: Cotton primarily--that was the money crop. Cotton.

FISHMAN: How big was your family?

MOSS: There was eight kids. I had three brothers and four sisters. And we called it what we called it back in those days, you know, it was a four horse crop. You know.

FISHMAN: What does that mean?

MOSS: It means how many acres. You…usually you judge it by per mule at that time. Um, twenty acres per a mule is what they called a…a one horse crop. A two horse was forty acres. And so forth. So we always had either a three or four horse crop. And there was eight kids and my mother and dad.

FISHMAN: Where were you among the eight kids in age?

MOSS: I was the youngest male and had two sisters younger than I was.

FISHMAN: Did you all work the farm?

MOSS: All of us worked the farm. I started working in the field when I was six 00:03:00years old. And, um.

FISHMAN: Where were your parents from?

MOSS: That same part of the country. My mother and, um, I don't recall what year and dad married in, but they always lived in…in that area there.

FISHMAN: How long had the farm been in the family I wonder?

MOSS: Oh, um, I could…I don't know when it all happened. But, um.

FISHMAN: Did they keep it all during the Depression too?

MOSS: Yeah. Mmhmm, yeah. I believe… in fact, we leased the farm. Dad never 00:04:00owned the farm as per se, he leased it. And, um. So that's, yeah.

FISHMAN: How long did they stay at the farm as your parents grew older?

MOSS: Dad quit farming in 19 and 57. He retired in 1957. He retired from the farm rather.

FISHMAN: Did the children keep it up then?

MOSS: No, we was all gone, that's why we quit farming.

FISHMAN: Did you expect that you were going to work the farm when you were younger?

MOSS: Um, yes, that's all I really had any interest in back at that time because there was no…really only a few places, you know, industrial type work 00:05:00back at that time other than cotton mills, and oat mills, and steel mills; that's about all there was back at that time. You know.

FISHMAN: Did you come down into the city at all during those early years?

MOSS: Oh, yeah, occasionally. We had some relatives that lived in Atlanta, we would come to Atlanta to visit them occasionally. We would bring produce to the Atlanta Market.

FISHMAN: Which one was that, the one on the . . .

MOSS: Well, at that time, the first one that I could remember was out there where the Capitol is at…at the present time. Then, they moved out on Woodrow, I think it's Woodrow, out in West End, that area out there, they've built a 00:06:00new state farmer's market out there. And, um.

FISHMAN: What was…oh, go ahead.

MOSS: Then, they built the present market which is out just off of 75. That was the last place that we had produce to sell.

FISHMAN: How long did it take you to get from…into the city from where you were?

MOSS: About an hour, hour and a half. Back at that time.

FISHMAN: Right. 'Cause there were no…there really weren't any towns out where you were much.

MOSS: No. Duluth, Alpharetta, and Roswell was the only ones. I was from a community called Ocee. O-C-DOUBLE E. That was the name of the community.

FISHMAN: Is it still there?

MOSS: Yes, that is where I went to grammar school, Ocee. That was the only grammar school that I ever went to.

FISHMAN: What was that school like?

MOSS: It was a pretty large school. I don't recall the number of students that attended school there, but it was the only in that area.

FISHMAN: It was probably mostly farm kids, the.

MOSS: Yeah, it was all the farm kids, there was nothing else to do then.

FISHMAN: And then…when did you…you went to high school where again? Alpharetta?

MOSS: Milton High.

FISHMAN: What did you think that you wanted to do when you were in high school? What did you imagine that you were going to do when you were done?

MOSS: I…I…figured I was going to farm all my life.

FISHMAN: And the farm was still…so it was still operating when you got out?

MOSS: 1940, you know, when, the World War II, in the beginning of World War II. By then things begin to change this part of the country and there was more industry moving… that started moving in. The Bell Bomber plant there in Marietta. That was the second job that I ever had was at the, well, actually the third job that I ever had was at the Bell Bomber Plant in Marietta.

FISHMAN: Oh that's…how else did that change, the coming of the factories? How did that change the community you lived in?

MOSS: Oh, drastically. There was more people, you know, start going to leaving the farm and going to, you know, public work.

FISHMAN: So you…what year did you graduate high school then?

MOSS: [inaudible] It was, I was eighteen . . .

FISHMAN: So, uh, '44? Is that right?

MOSS: Yeah. Mmhmm.

FISHMAN: Okay, and you mentioned briefly before we put the tape on that at some point you went to sign up for military service, you had the physical.

MOSS: I was…I was examined in October, 1944 and was rejected on the account of I had…when I was a kid, I had arthritis in my right leg, and thought they was…I was going to lose my leg and that's why I was rejected.

FISHMAN: That was after "D-day?"

MOSS: Yeah, mmhmm.

FISHMAN: And then, so, when that happened, was that about when you got your first job? Did you work on the farm for a while first?

MOSS: I worked on the farm

FISHMAN: Long time.

MOSS: From the time I was six years old until I left the farm when I finished high school in '44.

FISHMAN: And, then, um, how did you pick your first job over at Atlanta Paper? How did you decide on that?

MOSS: Um. Well, I was…I worked at Great Southern Freight Lines when I first came off the farm. I had a brother-in-law that worked for Great Southern Freight line. And he got me a job, my first job. I didn't like it. Didn't 00:11:00stayed there but about a month.

FISHMAN: What did Great Southern do? Trucking company?

MOSS: Trucking.

FISHMAN: What did you do there?

MOSS: I was a helper on the truck, and, um, picking up and delivering. I left there and…and didn't have a job. And there was an insurance salesman trying to sell me some insurance. And I told him that I couldn't take any insurance because I didn't have a job. So, he told me that he would get me a job if I would take out insurance. So, he carried me out to the Atlanta Paper Company and I went to work for the Atlanta Paper Company, then I picked my insurance out of it. [laughter]

FISHMAN: How did he…did he have a connection into Atlanta Paper?

MOSS: Well, he was a good friend of the personnel manager.

FISHMAN: What was your first job at the Atlanta paper?

MOSS: I was a feeder on the printing press.

FISHMAN: It…why don't you describe what the Atlanta Paper was like. What was the process at that plant and your job in the process?

MOSS: You mean what they…what they produce?

FISHMAN: Yeah.

MOSS: Back at that time there was two divisions, one called the corrugated container division and the other was folding cartons which primarily is food cartons at that time. We made a lot of boxes for clothing and etc. They were located on Hunter and Moore Street. I was terminated from there in, um , I guess it was really January 1946, '45. I always thought it was for trying to 00:13:00form a union back at that time. Then I stayed gone from…from there until 1950. Whenever I went back to Atlanta Paper Company, and they was on Ashby and Marietta Street. Um, the only way I got back on out there the personnel manager could not find my personnel file back whenever I had first worked for Atlanta Paper Company, they didn't keep very good records and he couldn't find my personnel file. I went back as a feeder on the press in 1950. Shortly after 00:14:00then, they had taken me off and started training me for a cutting and impressment.

FISHMAN: Let's go back for a second, we talked about it before we turned the tape on, briefly the incident that led your to getting discharged. What happened? What was that all about?

MOSS: Well, we had two guys that got into a fight and the pressmen that I was training under, which I was in the printing department at that time, we were in 00:15:00between them. They terminated both of them. Then, they were going to bring one of the guys back and the pressman that I was training under, he and myself had talked to the other people in there on that shift into shutting the machinery down and the equipment and going into the supervisor's office and we demanded that this guy be brought back to work. Instead of bringing him back to work, they offered him two weeks pay and he accepted two weeks pay in lieu of what we were asking for. Then, in January, we was off on '45 after the holidays. We 00:16:00was called into the personnel manager's office and one-at-a-time was terminated. They would not tell us the reason for why they terminated us. We all knew it was because of the so-called strike at that time, but we were not organized. But, um, that's what.

FISHMAN: Who was the other fellow that did this with you?

MOSS: His name was Walter Sanders. Um, there was only him and one other pressman on that shift, on the first shift. And, um.

FISHMAN: What…whose idea was it to shut down . . .

MOSS: It was Sanders's idea. I was basically still just a kid and was easy to…to be led. So I let him talk me into it. We didn't even…I didn't even know what the word union meant at that time.

FISHMAN: Did he to your knowledge -- was he a union person? Or.

MOSS: Really, I never did…I never known him if he was working in the union job, but, um. He was pretty much on the radical side.

FISHMAN: Mmhmm.

MOSS: And, um.

FISHMAN: How did he propose it to you? He come over and suggest it as a good idea?

MOSS: We were working together and he brought it up and asked me what I thought about it. I told him that I really didn't know. He thought that is the guy 00:18:00they terminated was gong to be brought back, they should bring back the other one that was terminated. He asked me if I would go around with him and talk to the other people working in that department and demand that they shut the equipment down. And then, we all went into the supervisor's office and sat down in sat down in the supervisor's office. The supervisor come in and wanted to know what we were in there for. We said we wanted the guy that they terminated for them to reinstate him. And so, he went to personnel. So they came back and told us that they were offering the guy two weeks pay and he 00:19:00accepted the two weeks pay rather than his job back.

FISHMAN: How did that feel for you? Did you feel like that was a victory or a defeat?

MOSS: Um, I really didn't…really didn't know at that time.

FISHMAN: Whatever became of Sanders?

MOSS: He went to work for Bell Bump, the he got me on at Bell Bump in the printing department. We worked there until the war was over in '46. And, um, then I left there and went to work in the printing department for Sears Roebuck.

FISHMAN: Let's back up. I am interested in the working conditions in all these different places…starting…

MOSS: Well, the working conditions at the Atlanta Paper was, um, you know, lousy--low pay, long hours. You didn't get overtime 'til excepting all 40; they would ask you if you could work overtime and they would tell you --- excuse me, it was even after 1950, whenever I went back and was reemployed by the Atlanta Paper Company. The working conditions were still lousy and not improved 00:21:00and the pay was still low. I went back to work. I started out with them in 1945 at forty cents an hour. In 19 and 50, I went back at eighty-five cents an hour as an experienced feeder on the press. And, then in, um…we worked twelve hours a day, six and seven days a week until 19 and… 19, I guess, and 57. Then, they put the people that feed the presses on a three, eight hour shift, but us pressmen were still on two, twelve hour shifts. And they let us off 00:22:00about every fourth Sunday, but was never off a full weekend. And then we...we, um, had an organizing drive out there in 1957. After they had merged with Mead, the company gave a twenty-five cent an hour wage increase. Let me back up prior to that. In 1957, when we lost the election, the plant superintendent and a supervisor tried to steal the ballot box from the National Labor Relations Board agent. And followed the agent all the way home. Um, that stayed in litigation 00:23:00in court for a long period of time, and, um, we did have some people that were terminated. Um, some of the--the company had to bring them back and pay them for that time that they was terminated.

FISHMAN: And how did they try to steal the ballot box?

MOSS: Tried to physically take it away from the Board agent.

FISHMAN: What did the agent do?

MOSS: Um, well, the agent, um, in some way was able to keep them from getting the ballot box, and got it in his automobile and carried it to…to his house that night.

FISHMAN: What was the vote from those ballots?

MOSS: I don't remember what the vote was, but we lost the election pretty bad 00:24:00at that…at that time. Then…then, in '58, we had…a year later, the union came back and the company had to give a twenty-five cent an hour wage increase. We…um…we had another organizing campaign. The company, whenever they give the twenty-five cent an hour wage increase, they promised better working conditions and, um, a lot of improvements that they was going to make which would benefit the employees that was never put into effect. We won the election, I don't recall what the vote was in the second go around. The first 00:25:00contract was signed in 1959. Um.

FISHMAN: Wait, back up a second, too. When… where were you and when…do you remember you first joined a union?

MOSS: In 19 and, um, 1958 whenever I first joined.

FISHMAN: Do you remember why?

MOSS: Um, I joined the union before the plant was organized. I joined the union while we was in the organizing campaign.

FISHMAN: What did you know about unions then?

MOSS: I did basically didn't know anything about them. But I…I knew that I had heard enough about them. That…I had a brother who had worked for General 00:26:00Motors, had some relatives that worked for US Steel and both of those places was union. I had heard them talk about how better conditions was there. And, um, so I guess that's why I…I joined and got involved in organizing campaign at that time.

FISHMAN: That was…it was…what was that called then? The Printing Pressmen's Uni…

MOSS: Printing Pressmen's…

FISHMAN: So that was in…

MOSS: Printing Pressmen's and Assistants International Union.

FISHMAN: And that was in '58 at which shop?

MOSS: Mead.

FISHMAN: Mead. How did your…your family, aside from that one brother, feel about you joining?

MOSS: Um, they really didn't object. I had one brother that was a carpenter, 00:27:00he belonged to the union, the one at General Motor. My oldest, he always worked for the government, he never belonged to it. I guess they had a union, but, um

FISHMAN: They didn't

MOSS: so-called union.

FISHMAN: Right, they didn't have real labor unions till the '60s at least. 'Cause they had no collective bargaining until the '60s.

MOSS: Mmhmm…um…but…um…

FISHMAN: What were the other…what were the main issues in '57 and in '58 in those organizing drives? Um, salary was an issue, what else?

MOSS: Salary was an issue, vacation, holidays, long hours, basically, working 00:28:00hours were terrible.

FISHMAN: Do you remember how much vacation people got before the union came in?

MOSS: We got two weeks vacation - was the maximum. It didn't make any difference how long you worked for the company, two weeks was the maximum. And you didn't get two weeks until after you were with the company for five years.

FISHMAN: How about holidays?

MOSS: Holidays, we…I think it was four or five holidays that we received, um, back at that time.

FISHMAN: Was safety an issue? What was it like to work before the union?

MOSS: Um, safe…well, safety, you know, I include safety with working conditions. Safety was an issue.

FISHMAN: What were the problems?

MOSS: Well, um, we had an individual that got his arm cut off in…in the gear 00:29:00box on the press in the printing department. The company just didn't, you know, back at that time, they just didn't seem to think too much about a safe place for people to work. We had a lot of people that got hurt. The worst accident, as I said, was a guy that got his arms cut off, he got both arms cut off in the gear box in the printing press.

FISHMAN: What about the workers, was it mostly men or some women?

MOSS: No, we had, um, at that time it was, I guess probably between a thousand and eleven hundred hourly employees that worked at the plant at Mead. And I would say there was at least fifty to sixty percent of them were female.

FISHMAN: Hmm…was that unusual in, um, in the industry at that time?

MOSS: Not at that time, it was not. Um.

FISHMAN: When…were those women who had started working, was that during the war?

MOSS: Well, um. Some of them. Some of them had started working there prior to the World War II, but um then the company began to grow, um, you know, faster, and, when, during World War II and they began to hire more employees.

FISHMAN: Where was the Mead plant?

MOSS: Well, as I said, the Atlanta Paper Company was on the . . .

FISHMAN: Okay, you were saying after Atlanta Paper built a new plant.

MOSS: They built a new plant out on Marietta and Ashby Street. And, um.

FISHMAN: They were making the same kind of products? [inaudible]

MOSS: Same kind of products. Then, they went into what was…we called back at that time, the bottle carriage…um…um…um…division. Um, you know, the six pack Coke carrier, Pepsi. And…and…

FISHMAN: Once the union came in…in '58, did you become active?

MOSS: Um, I was…become a shop Steward soon after the first contract was…was signed. First contract I think was in 1959 when the first contract was signed. I got to be a…was elected out there as the Department Shop Steward in the Cutting Department. Then, in '61…1962, I ran for Executive Board Officer from that chapter; and this local was made up of a multitude of different plants. We had a one elected from each plant which we called it [inaudible] to serve on the Executive Board. And I was elected to serve on the Executive Board. And then, that, um, November of that same year, I ran for president of 00:33:00the local.

FISHMAN: What was the local number back then?

MOSS: 527.

FISHMAN: It was 527 from back then? When you first ran for Steward in 1959, what…what do you think made you decide to do that?

MOSS: Basically, it was because the Steward we had, he quit and left the company. And none of the others guys in the plant wanted to be the steward, so I volunteered to take it.

FISHMAN: Have you ever run for anything before?

MOSS: Never had run for anything.

FISHMAN: Hmm.

MOSS: In fact, when I was elected as executive board officer, I had, you know, 00:34:00never run for an office for the local before.

FISHMAN: What was your job as a steward?

MOSS: As a Steward, representing the people in the cutting department. They had a complaint or grievance, I'd go to the supervisor and talked to the supervisor about it. If we didn't get satisfaction, well then I got the person, and we filed a written grievance. And then, it was turned over to what we called a Chapel Chairman. The Chapel Chairman was over all the Stewards in the plant. For him to see if he could resolved with management higher than the supervisor and him and the Grievance Committee. The Grievance Committee was elected back at that time. Then, if he couldn't resolve it, then they turned 00:35:00it over to the local union officers which was either the president or the business agent for the local.

FISHMAN: How did you learn about your duties as a Steward?

MOSS: Through attending a workshop, meetings, and with pamphlets that was put out by our international union that was describing the duties of the shop Steward.

FISHMAN: Who did the training? Was it local officers?

MOSS: Local officers and the international representatives.

FISHMAN: And those were fro…

MOSS: Occasionally back at that time, they would have an international representative come in with the local officers to give us training.

FISHMAN: The international representatives weren't from Atlanta, they were from somewhere else?

MOSS: Um. No. We had two…two or three at that time that worked out of an office here in Atlanta. And one of the names was Larry Smith and the other one was named Larry Markum.

FISHMAN: They still around?

MOSS: No, they're both deceased. Both retired and didn't live long after they retired.

FISHMAN: Um, what made you run for the executive board?

MOSS: I really don't know, other than just the workers in the plant had enough confidence in me to come to me and asked me to run. There was a guy by the name 00:37:00of Frank Edgar that was on the executive board. He come to me and asked me to run. He worked in the maintenance department. And He told me that he was not going to run for reelection and asked me if I would run for…along with several other people in the plant.

FISHMAN: What was your job at that time in the plant? You were then working as a pressman?

MOSS: Cutting pressman. I was lead pressman in the cutting department.

FISHMAN: What is…as a lead pressman, what did you do?

MOSS: Basically, just assisted and trained other people to become pressman. Cutting pressman.

FISHMAN: What do they do?

MOSS: Putting on make-ready on the machine when we run. Get one order…finish one order, then put on what we call a make-ready, and, um, for another job. And, 00:38:00so I, um, work with them, putting on the make-ready and getting the machine back in the operation for the next order coming up. And at that time, we had twelve cutting presses, eight of them in production continuously, and the other four…usually three to four of them that was down to make-ready at the time and the other was in operation at that time. And then, I was executive board officer for…let's see…that was in '50…did I say '59

FISHMAN: Um…

MOSS: Yeah, in '59 until…until . . . In 19 and 61, I ran for president in 00:39:00November. The election was challenged. Um.

FISHMAN: Why was it challenged?

MOSS: We…the local secretary-treasurer and business agent, when he put out the notice for the election, he put some other items on the notice. It was objected to because at that time, we was only supposed to send out a notice that was calling for the election and nothing else. Whether or not that was a NLRB ruling, I don't know, but there were objections raised on the floor. And… 00:40:00my…a guy by the name of Willy Reeves which had been the local president. And…so, we decided, you know, whether than argue over it, we just have another election. We had an election in January and I had taken office in February.

FISHMAN: That would have been in '62?

MOSS: Mmmhmm, yes, '62. Then, we had the election in January and I had taken office in February. I was president in the local for '62, '63, '64. I was defeated in '64 as president. And then, in 19 and 63, we started trying 00:41:00to form what we called a district council. A secretary-business agent, Barron Watkins and myself, had…um…well that was in '64 that we started to form the council. And then, I got defeated and Barron Watkins and Ralph Mears finished putting the council together in '65. In November of '65, Barron Watkins resigned as secretary-treasury business agent of the local union. I ran 00:42:00for that position and was elected. I stayed in that position until 1970. Barron Watkins was appointed to the international staff representative and I moved up and ran for the position of secretary-treasury business representative for the business council and stayed in that position from 19 and 70 until I retired in January 1, 19 and 94.

FISHMAN: And, what…I mean…generally, can you say from the time that you were a Steward on, what were your expectations about being a union activist? And…

MOSS: Well, whenever I was a Steward, at that particular time, I never thought about ever working for the union full-time. It never crossed my mind at that time. It was only after I got elected as the executive board officer that I began to generate enough interest in, you know, trying to move up in the union. And, um…

FISHMAN: Which of those positions are full-time union? When you were on the executive board, were you still working?

MOSS: I was still working in the plant. We was off…the executive board officers, I was on second shift, we had put language in the contract that the 00:44:00company had to let the people off for union business. And I would work 'til…'til six o'clock, then I would take off for the executive board meeting. We always had it at 7:30 on Thursday night.

FISHMAN: Then when did you become full-time union?

MOSS: I become full time union in 19 and 61…or '62, rather. Um. I think was February whenever I had taken office, was supposed to have taken office in 00:45:00January, December…December rather of '61 because of the challenge of the election over in…it delayed it until January of, um, '62.

FISHMAN: Mmhmm. Let me….okay. We are going to talk some about Mead and Montag are about the biggest in the area.

MOSS: They was…was the two largest in the local.

FISHMAN: Starting back in the early years, do you want to talk about some of your experiences in various negotiations, strikes, and unauthorized strikes and so forth? [laughter]

MOSS: Well we…we…um…as long as I as a local union officer, we never had a a strike at Mead. A legal strike. We did have several, what we called back then, 00:46:00sit-downs and wild-cats. One basically, that I can recall, I had a meeting with labor relations at Mead and the employees in that department on Saturday.

FISHMAN: What year was it?

MOSS: That was probably…that was probably 1967, '68, I'm not sure which year. But, um, we met with them in the lunch room. And they… the labor 00:47:00relation guy, we had been having tremendous problems in that department with line supervision. And then, on Monday, following that Saturday, um, I was late getting into the union office on Monday morning. Whenever I got to the office, Mead was trying to reach me, the labor relations guy that they had a…what he 00:48:00called a wild-cat, the entire department was out on the first shift.

FISHMAN: Which department was…

MOSS: We called it at that time the Mercury Printing Department. It's a bottle…they run run bottle carriers and so forth back there. And I went out there and…and talked to the people and he was out in the parking lot. [coughing] Excuse me. I talked to the people and tried to help resolved the problem, I would have to go in and talk to management. So I went in and talked 00:49:00to management, management had nothing to say until the people went back to work. So, I went back to the people and the people said we have got nothing to say until they give us what we want.

FISHMAN: What were their demands about?

MOSS: Working conditions primarily. It was awfully hot in the plant. Um, and long hours, supervisors, um, you know, riding the people continuously, harassing the people. That continued on until the second shift, the first shift ended and the second shift coming on and the second shift refused to go in. The company 00:50:00was saying they couldn't do anything. There was a guy out there that was president of the company at that time by the name of Ausbrooks…not Ausbrooks….Brooks. He was out of town. He was, I think his title was president of the company out there at that time. And, so they…the second shift, whenever they got to the plant to go in to go to work, they refused to go in. We got it resolved about eight o'clock that night after the second shift refused to go in. And the company had first taken the position that all of them 00:51:00would be disciplined, some of them would be terminated. Our position with the company that if you terminate or discipline any of them, one person, then they are going to go right back out. That was the position the people had taken and so we wound up resolving it with nobody getting suspended or disciplined. I think two or three of the people got warnings, but nobody got any time off or terminated. We had two or three minor slow-downs or sit-downs until the one 00:52:00whatever year it was that Hosea Williams got involved.

FISHMAN: Oh, right. Let me ask you that one in a second, but going back to the one that you were just describing. Who did they come to be in the parking lot that Monday morning? Who…who was organizing that to get them out?

MOSS: Well, they was…really, I didn't try and find out. There was several, I would say half a dozen that was primarily the ring leaders in talking with the people into going out. That was in what we call Plant One of the Bottle Care Division, they call it Packaging Division now I think. It was Bottle Care 00:53:00Division back at that time. Then, we had another one, I don't recall what year in- plant to which was the Folding Cart Division. Wilbur Curry, he was a shop Steward at that time for the pressmen. The cutting department went out, but they were only out for as well as I remembered for two or three hours, and we got it resolved and people went back to work. As I remember we had nobody that received any time off. Those are the major two unauthorized practices that 00:54:00I remember. The only authorized strike was when Hosea Williams…when he got involved back in '73.

FISHMAN: '72 it looks like. Or 'round about then.

MOSS: '72. When he got involved, Hosea Williams got involved…that was not a legal strike. Now I was involved at the beginning whenever that first began.

FISHMAN: Describe how that started. What were the issues and who was leading it, if you remember?

MOSS: I don't remember. Um. Um. Um. Yeah.

FISHMAN: Hold it one second. Um, we are going to talk about a series of events around fall of '72 out at Mead. Um, there was a group of employees that…that aside from…not going through the union, started to raise a bunch of issues. How did you hear this, what happened?

MOSS: Well, the first that I can recall hearing about this was, um , we knew there was some unrest in the…in the…the plant, we knew that there was some racial tension in the plant, but we didn't realize that it had gotten to the point that I had when Hosea Williams -- We had been meeting with the company 00:56:00trying to resolve a lot of the issues and basically hadn't resolved but a few of them. The next thing we know, Hosea Williams appeared on the scene. That was when people went out on the strike, wild-cat strike. There was Ralph, myself, and a guy by the name of Charles Mattingly who was secretary-treasurer business agent at that time. I was working with the council; and 527 was part of the council. We went out to the plant in the afternoon after the strike 00:57:00started. That morning we went out to the plant, we was in my vehicle and Channel 2 was out there taking pictures and all. I think that Hosea knew of the news media. We had people lay down across the drive trying to block us from going in. We explained to them that we as union officials were trying to resolve it and would be that we had to go in and meet with the company.

FISHMAN: How many people were out of the total work force?

MOSS: Basically, I…I would say 3/4 of the work force was out. Some of them was not participating, but they was, you know, scared to go in, they were afraid 00:58:00to cross the wild-cat picket line. And, um, I would…I would say they was probably about thirty to forty percent of the people was actually greatly involved in following Hosea at that time.

FISHMAN: What did their signs and leaflets say at that time? If you remember…

MOSS: 'Unfair working conditions', 'Mead's unfair', policy and so forth, racial discrimination between the employees. I at that…I was involved 00:59:00up until…we had the convention in October. Ralph was called back from the convention and I never got involved after he had come back from the convention. I was not involved in anything more. I think they pretty much got it resolved.

FISHMAN: When you got in the first day, who did you end up talking to? What happened?

MOSS: Well, we talked to Barney…Leo Benatard who at that time was President of Mead. We talked to Barney Breedlove, which was the production manager. I think 01:00:00Keith Rasmusin was involved to begin with, I don't think he was involved when it was settled. The safety director, I can't remember his name--Earl Sams, was safety director.

FISHMAN: Had you…had you talked to the folks outside before you went in?

MOSS: We tried to. We tried to, but they wouldn't listen to us. The only one that they would listen to at that particular time was Hosea Willia They finally got where they were talking about us. But, um, at the…at the…the first day or two of the…of the strike, they wouldn't…they wouldn't talk to us. 01:01:00The only person they'd talk to was Hosea Williams.

FISHMAN: How long were they out altogether?

MOSS: As I remember, he was only out for about a couple of weeks. I'm not…I'm not sure of the exact number of days he was out.

FISHMAN: Did you all have a plan when you went in there as to what you were going to do that first morning?

MOSS: We didn't…we didn't…that afternoon when we went in. It was our plan to try to find out what the issues were and try to form a committee and go 01:02:00in with management and try to resolve the issues.

FISHMAN: Okay, um, you were saying that they wouldn't talk to you at first, so all you did was talk to management then?

MOSS: We went to talk to management and as I recall at that time, management did not know what all the issues was because, as I stated, we had resolved a lot of issues out there with management prior to this happened [inaudible]. I always thought--and I don't recall the names of the…of the two or three employees and I don't recall what they was called--but they belonged to some radical group that was going around over the company…country trying to destroy labor 01:03:00organizations and the companies at that time. And they were primarily -- Hosea as well as I remember, they were Hosea's primary…his leaders. But the company, at the time, they didn't know what all the issues was and neither did the company until Hosea got his list of demands up which covered everything in the plant primarily.

FISHMAN: How long did the press cover it? Do you remember?

MOSS: I'm not sure. I'm not sure how long they covered it. I know they covered it the first few days of the strike, then I think they covered it some during the…the period of time when we were having meetings out there when we were trying to get it resolved.

FISHMAN: Did anybody ever get arrested around the whole event?

MOSS: Not that I recall, nobody got arrested, but could have, but I don't recall anybody getting arrested.

FISHMAN: Did the city politicians get involved at all in it?

MOSS: Um, they did, but I had…I had… I was not a participant at the time when the city leaders had gotten into it. The mayor…there was three or four ministers....

FISHMAN: Who was the mayor then?

MOSS: Um.

FISHMAN: I'm at a disadvantage not being native to Atlanta. Not until '72.

MOSS: I think it was Maynard Jackson, I'm not sure. Either Maynard Jackson or Andy…you know…

FISHMAN: Who was before…before either of them?

MOSS: Hartsfield…Hartsfield or Allen.

FISHMAN: Yeah.

MOSS: Ivan Allen. It was after Allen. I think it was either Maynard Jackson or Andrew Young. I think it was Maynard Jackson that was… was mayor at that time.

FISHMAN: So, you were involved the first couple of days?

MOSS: Yes. And, um, they…the mayor, as I remember played a big part in…in getting the issues resolved. Um.

FISHMAN: What other tactics did they use besides the picketing? [inaudible]

MOSS: Nothing other than…than threats. I was followed home.

FISHMAN: Really?

MOSS: I was followed home and was threatened by some radicals in the plant, working in the plant at that time. I was personally threatened. For a period of time, I would not let my wife or my kids go out and crank the automobile. I would go out and crank it…

FISHMAN: That sounds very scary.

MOSS: …every morning. It was a scary time, it was.

FISHMAN: Yeah. What was the atmosphere like over at the union halls these couple of weeks, what was going on?

MOSS: At that time, when they started having meetings at the union halls, trying to get the issues, get it finalized, I was not involved at that point. Ralph Meers could fill you in on all of that.

FISHMAN: 'Cause you were with the district?

MOSS: Then, another, and I can't recall what year it was, I guess it must have been in '70…it's probably '60….probably '68, I'm not sure what year was we had contract negotiations. We had a meeting at the -- at that time. 01:08:00The Teamsters were out on Lakewood…the Lakewood Union Hall. Basically, it was the only union hall in Atlanta and around Atlanta that would seat that many people.

UNKNOWN MALE: Y'all two'd like to go to lunch?

FISHMAN: Sure…go ahead. '68

MOSS: I think it was '68 that we had contracted negotiations and we had a ratification meeting at the Teamster's Hall, a union hall which was the only hall that large enough to seat our membership. The meeting lasted eight hours. The president of the local union which was Ralph Meers at that time. Um. He 01:09:00adjourned the meeting, the people were all interested in raising a lot of hell so to speak. They wouldn't vote to accept the contract, the wouldn't strike a vote, so we finally adjourned the meeting. Then, we had shift meetings which the Mead workers and the contract was accepted. Come to find out why we couldn't…why the meeting lasted so long, we had a person who and other officers of the union know'd about it, but we had a guy that didn't belong 01:10:00to the union that had a load of bootleg whiskey…that he was… people were going out and buying it, and they got all tanked up. That was the reason that we couldn't…they weren't interested in doing anything but raising hell.

FISHMAN: Without the liquor, it might have been a four hour meeting. [laughter]

MOSS: Right. [Inaudible]

FISHMAN: Sure, we can take a break. That was Mead?

MOSS: Yeah. [Break]

FISHMAN: Okay, we'll take a break….Ok, we are starting back in after a little break. You had been talking a lot about Mead. There may have been other events at Mead, too, I am sure, over the years that you remember.

MOSS: That's the main events that I can recall from Mead.

FISHMAN: How about Montag?

MOSS: Montag, we went through several elections out there. We never won the election. They was always the bookbinders or the firemen that would get involved. We'd all end up losing. We made a deal with Crip Krumpleton, the last organizing campaign that we had out there.

FISHMAN: And who was he?

MOSS: He was the business agent for the bookbinders. And we made a deal with him that if he pulled off and didn't…wouldn't get involved -- because we had a lot more cards to sign than he did, authorization cards. If we didn't win it, then the next go around, we would give him a shot at it and we wouldn't get involved. So he bought into our suggestion. And it was a long, long campaign, but we won it. And at that time, there was a little better than 500 people in the plant when we negotiated the first contracted out there; um…don't recall 01:13:00what year that was.

FISHMAN: It looks like the last that you were out there was in '64, '66, '67 and then '69 you won.

MOSS: Okay, '69 was…

FISHMAN: Late '69

MOSS: Then I guess it was '69 or '70 when we, you know, finished negotiations and got the first contract. Um, it was…it was tough negotiations with Montag. I forgot the attorney's name; but, um, he was tough to deal with. Um.

FISHMAN: What were you trying to get in the contract, what were some of the main things?

MOSS: Well, working conditions, improvements in the insurance, pay, holidays, vacations, trying to get improvements in all fringe benefits because their benefits were really low. Then, I guess it was probably, I have to let Ralph Meers fill you in on what year they had a strike out there and the length of the strike. Since then, Mead has bought the plant and so far we have had pretty good relationship.

FISHMAN: Back when you were organizing in '69, what was it, you think, that finally put the union over to finally win that election?

MOSS: Well, it was false promises that the company had made in previous campaigns, promises that they had made that people never did live up to. That was really how we won the elections, 'cause the company had to live up to their promises in the campaign and was having the campaigns out there. The other thing that kept us from winning before, there's always two or three unions on the [inaudible]. And, we could…neither one of us could get the majority. But the last one as I said, was successful in organizing. The first 01:16:00contract in negotiations was tough. After we got a contract, we had quite a bit of problems with them on up until the time that Mead talked to them. I don't recall the year that Mead bought Montag out or they merged. Ashbury, as I understand, the relationship has been pretty good.

FISHMAN: What was the strike over at Montag when they had it?

MOSS: I'm not sure. I think it was basically seniority and working conditions.

FISHMAN: What did Montag manufacture?

MOSS: School goods, stationery, and that type of thing. Um.

FISHMAN: Were…did they engage when you were trying to organize the company, engage in anti-union…

MOSS: Yeah.

FISHMAN: …propaganda?

MOSS: Oh, yeah. Yeah. They lose all their fringe benefits that they had, they would have to start from scratch on fringe benefits. They had given a pay increase and they would cut that increase back to what they were making prior to the campaign. Seniority--they tried to make a big issue out of seniority that the union was nothing the union could do on seniority. The union could not tell them when they could…could hire and who they could terminate or lay off. That 01:18:00was pretty much what every plant tried to organize. They moved the plant to some other location and that's basically what every company tried to do.

FISHMAN: What were some of your tactics that worked best for you?

MOSS: Well, it was sick, it was sick. We put out a handbill. I can't remember what exactly all that was on the handbill. I think it was bubblegum that we used, but we attached a piece of gum to the…to the newsletter and told 01:19:00the people not to let the company gum up the works as far as trying to organize. And that seemed to do more after we put out that handbill. That seemed to build more momentum than anything that we had done. [inaudible]

FISHMAN: Whose idea was it?

MOSS: I think it was a guy by the name of Mattingly at that time, but, at that time, he was vice-president. And we… he was not full-time, but we pulled him out of the plant that he worked to do some organizing. That was one of the plant. He and Barron Watkins was the one that came up with that idea. 01:20:00Mattingly was pretty much an artist and he drawed many of the campaign slogans and so forth, cartoons, and he was good at it. In fact, I think that had a lot to do…the last few days of the campaign there was Ralph Meers, myself, Charles Mattingly, James Parker, and Barron Watkins that was working on the campaign. And…and…so we said, okay, we have got to have some many more parts, so each one of us was issued so many people to contact and so many parts to get signed, 01:21:00then we could go petition. We all worked towards it, finishing the campaign, getting the cards signed, petitioning the board, have an election, and by God, we won it!

FISHMAN: Where did most of those workers live? Did they live around that area?

MOSS: No, a lot of them did, but some of them lived off of Mableton, Austell, down at Union City, Georgia. Some of them lived as far off as thirty miles away.

FISHMAN: This…this is the plant that we talked about earlier that is over by Candler Park area?

MOSS: Yes. [inaudible]

FISHMAN: So, how did you reach workers, then, out of duty hours?

MOSS: We…we got names and addresses, phone numbers, and we would make house calls. Back at that time, house calls was the best way to organize, so we all went our separate ways. We would take so many names that we was going to contact like today, we would go visit them and talk to them about organizing unions. I can recall two sisters that worked there. I went to see one of them and she signed the card. She told me -- I told her that I was going over to see her other sister, her sister worked out there. She said, 'Well, don't you 01:23:00tell her that I signed the card.' I got over there and visiting with her and talking with her about organizing the plant. The one that I had just signed up, she come up and come over to her sister's house. The one that was at that particular time, she was hesitant about signing the card without talking to me even in her sister's presence until her sister finally got enough nerve to tell her to go ahead and sign, I just signed one. It was a real interesting 01:24:00campaign, most of them didn't trust each other that was why it was such a long campaign. People didn't trust each other. People didn't want nobody to know that they signed the authorization card.

FISHMAN: Why do you think that they didn't trust each other?

MOSS: I don't really know. That is not really not uncommon. That goes on in most plants even today, if you successfully -- today's times even getting a campaign started. That was one of the most interesting campaigns that I was involved. Other than me when I met [inaudible] of course, I was working in the plant in the old times.

FISHMAN: When you did organize Mead, do you remember details of some of those tactics and experiences?

MOSS: I don't know. Closing the plant, again, I've done away with any benefits that you might have.

FISHMAN: Did the management threaten . . .

MOSS: Seniority, the union couldn't guarantee that they would have any job. Of course, the union didn't try to guarantee. The only thing that we guarantee is representation. We would try negotiation language in there that would protect their jobs if they had seniority, so that's what we wound up with. And the, negotiations, Mead didn't give that twenty-five cent an hour wage increase and even in negotiations, the first contract negotiations. There, 01:26:00the company spokesman said that they were hoping they would win that one and it was their intention to take that twenty-five cents an hour that they had given the year before back from the table. But, um, then I, you know, the other campaigns was pretty much the same seniority, fringe benefits, the company take away any benefits that they have. That was basically the issue with every campaign.

FISHMAN: What was the hardest organizing campaign that you ever worked?

MOSS: I guess--and this was not a part of this local--I guess none in Georgia was really the hardest one. I don't think it was the lengthiest campaign, but it was one of the hardest. The company's name was American Candidate Time. They were international, had an organizing team at that time, had the guy that was all for organizing. Him and the staff was about seven or eight organizers. 01:28:00Then from 527 we would go down and assist them in helping make house calls and organize the meetings. One of the things that the company was telling the people [Break]. One of the things down there as I recall, the company was going to the banks. That was pretty much at that time still considered a country town. A lot of them bought groceries on credit at the grocery store, they bought at the service station gasoline on time. The banks would make house calls and people from the banks, from the grocery store and from the service 01:29:00station would either follow us making house calls or call the people on the phone telling them that if you all organize the union, the banks was telling them that they wouldn't loan them any more money. All the service stations and grocery store was telling them we won't sell you any more gasoline or groceries. We won it, it was successful campaign and we won it. After we won it and got the contract, most of the business places was, you know, real proud that the plant was organized, 'cause it meant more money to them because the 01:30:00people who worked there and lived there spent their money in that area. So, it was, you, know.

FISHMAN: How did you fight back against that sort of campaign while it was going on?

MOSS: Well, basically just telling the people [that] the company was the one that was handling the bank, service station and the grocery stores, and to put out that propaganda that they would not put them off. I guess the people really believed us when we put [inaudible] in the company.

FISHMAN: Were you ever able to tie up the company to the banks and the stores?

MOSS: No.

FISHMAN: Did they ever let on?

MOSS: No. I guess that was one of the hardest campaigns. Mead was not easy, 01:31:00Montag was not easy. Even some of these smaller ones were not easy. I guess the easiest campaign that was ever involved was Georgia Blueprint.

FISHMAN: That's here in Atlanta?

MOSS: Yes. They were just across the street from the office, their business was just across the street from the office. I had -- those guys would be standing on the sidewalk on break. When we would go to lunch, we would stop and talk to them. We would tell them that they should organize a union. I was sitting in the office on day and two of the guys came over, one of them was named Adams, 01:32:00the other one was named, I believe Cox. They wanted to know if I was interested in organizing. We are always interested in organizing, it just depends on how interested you all are. So, they told me that they wanted to try to organize, I gave them the authorization cards, and [told them that] we had a convention coming up. I told them there was a small plant about forty to fifty people, I'm not exactly sure. I told them if they were really interested in organizing, whenever I get back in town, you all should have enough authorization cards to petition the board. Sure enough, when I got back, they 01:33:00had brought most of the people about. I would say at least ninety percent of the people had signed up and petitioned the National Labor Relations Board and the company put on the same old tactics.

FISHMAN: Ok, you were talking about Georgia Blueprint, um, finally…after finally winning the real tough negotiations.

MOSS: They hired an attorney to negotiate for them. He was really tough on the language, but when it got to economics, he just caved in on it and almost put the company under with the wage increases they gave. I'm not sure that local management didn't understand what he was doing or why, but we got a lot of the 01:34:00people as much as a dollar and a quarter an hour increase to pay the first year of the contract. That was something that was kind of unheard of, that much increase for a contract.

FISHMAN: Sure. This is the [inaudible] in '68. It was probably a good share of what they were making to begin with.

MOSS: They were always a hard company to deal with. They never, I don't know the right word to use for it, they never wanted to admit that they had to go by the contract. They thought that even though we had a signed labor agreement 01:35:00between the parties that we couldn't run the place like they always ran it.

FISHMAN: How about some of the others too, involving Austell Box-Board?

MOSS: Back whenever I was involved in Austell, Box-Board--that was my first experience at Maynard Jackson, ex-mayor of Atlanta, he was the Board Agent that conducted the first hearing election, we lost the election, people were out -- they walked out on strike. I don't know what the issue was, I don't recall what the issue was right now. They walked out on me and didn't call us; Ralph 01:36:00Meers, Barron Watkins and myself were out there. I think it was probably ten, eleven o'clock at night, and began to sign the people up. They wasn't…whenever they went out on strike, they weren't even represented by union at all. As well as I recall it though, they didn't have but one or two that they terminated that they didn't take back. But, um, it was…the union didn't win, they shot the election by promises the company made to the people. And, I think… we had, probably, one or two elections out there, but we never won any of the plant.

FISHMAN: Do you remember what…what, um, Maynard Jackson was like as a board representative? He was probably pretty new at it then, too.

MOSS: Um, well, he…um…he was new at it, but he…he knew how to conduct them. He went strictly by the rules. That was the first experience they had of the ex-mayor of Atlanta. Um.

FISHMAN: What was your…how did you learn how to do the organizing work that you did?

MOSS: Just kind of picked it up after the meeting campaign that I attended when I worked at the plant. I caught on through organizing meetings, hearing the organizer talk, got a lot of input and information background and so forth kind 01:38:00of how to go about doing it. Going back to the Lunpeck Campaign, the first, two or three campaigns we had out there. I had a lot of doors slammed in my face. But, um, you know, you don't ever give up if you are interested in organizing things, you don't give up.

FISHMAN: Yeah. What kept you going to keep you coming back to Montag?

MOSS: Um, well, the size of the plant, the people that were interested in…in trying to organize it kept contacting us and kept in contact with us. We just 01:39:00kept trying to win. It was a big blue star in membership. Primarily, the reason we kept going back was the interest of a lot of the people that they had for the union.

FISHMAN: During the times that you were organizing, were there ever times you were afraid for your own security?

MOSS: Oh, there were a lot of times. I can recall going into apartment houses--two, three story apartment houses--going up the stairwells with no lights to try to find somebody that lived on the third floor, and some sections 01:40:00that some of those people live in was a pretty rough section. You didn't feel comfortable at all going into some of those places. At that time we didn't go in pairs. We split up and each one of us went our own direction.

FISHMAN: What, um, other campaign do you think that you remember from some of these that you were involved in organizing that were ones that you remember? You mentioned on in La Grange. [inaudible]

MOSS: Well, La Grange is not . . .

FISHMAN: I'm sorry, that was Lewis Business, right?

MOSS: Mmhmm.

FISHMAN: That's different. Um.MOSS: Federal Paperboard in Thomaston. The last 01:41:00campaign was probably in '68, the last one that I can remember. We missed that election down there. I think we had three elections down there. The first one, we lost pretty bad. I don't recall exactly what the vote was. I think it was the second campaign, we lost it by one vote. The last campaign, we came down there, we lost it because we thought we had it won in the last campaign, but one of our committeemen that we thought was the leader of the in-plant committee the last week of the campaign, he turned on us. Management was able to – um, I…I don't know if I should use the word, bought him off, but he 01:42:00got a lot of promises from the company if he would turn against us. He wound up being an observer from the company. And I think that is why we lost it the last time, and we lost it pretty bad. The last time, we had…we kept in touch with some people, but we hadn't tried to put on another campaign down there since the Swainsboro Print works in Swainsboro, Georgia. They were a union--I think their headquarters were called the Printer's Union. They didn't make 01:43:00anything, except it was a textile plant, they didn't make the cloth there, but they printed and refinished it. I was not involved in that campaign. The second contract, I was involved from that point on up until the plant closed in the early eighties. The plant sold a couple of times, and the last time the company had deducted the union dues would not turn them over to the union. I had to get an attorney by the name of Randy Goldthwaite to send the company two 01:44:00or three letters, talked to the district attorney down there about putting the owners in jail and was told that…that we could, but we would have to have an attorney. I talked to the international president at that time about financial assistance to hire an attorney, or for them to send one in and he refused to do it. So we got to hiring an attorney on our own, which was Randy Goldthwaite. Randy wrote two or three letters and we finally got the dues caught up. We…then, six months when the plant closed, I think it was around nine thousand that they owed us in unions dues and went bankrupt. And we never did get it, 01:45:00the money. There was nothing there to negotiate because they went bankrupt and the people got beat out of a lot of hospital, um, bills that the insurance was supposed to have paid, but didn't pay. Some of them lost as much as two weeks vacation, and the plant, they just went completely bankrupt.

FISHMAN: Did any of those workers get other jobs back in the same industries that you know of?

MOSS: Not that I know of. Not that I know of. A lot of them went to -- Swainsboro is a small farm town. And lot of them, there were quite a few sewing factories a lot of the, some of them were male employees and a lot of female employees went to work in those sewing factories down there. But, some of them, 01:46:00I think, had to relocate to even get work, but they didn't…they didn't go back into the textile industry.

FISHMAN: You mentioned women which makes me think to ask, I mean, you have been working with the union over some years where women's roles have changed a whole lot. What do you recall about women…how women have been treated in the industry and within the union?

MOSS: Well, I can recall one which was the time that, um, I guess when women's lib began to get started in a big way. We had contracts that spelled out in the 01:47:00contract that these jobs are female, or female employees only, which gave them really a lot of job security. The company came to us and to the union and primarily needed that time and said to us, we have to set down and talk. I forgotten how much. We negotiated some money, additional money at that time when we made the change and made those jobs just open for anybody. We got a lot of criticism.

FISHMAN: Who from?

MOSS: Basically from the women. They had been hollering because they had not 01:48:00been able to move up as an operator on the machine and forklift operator on the jobs and some of the better paying jobs and I have to admit that they were discriminated against because they were females until women's lib came along. After women's lib did come along and we made the change and come around, male employers began to bid on those jobs that had been primarily female jobs only, the women began pouting that they shouldn't have a right to come over, "These are our jobs". They used to be your jobs, but not any more.

FISHMAN: Didn't seem like an improvement at the time. Which jobs were the women's jobs?

MOSS: Basically, inspectors, quality control inspectors, take off the cartons on 01:49:00a finishing machine, gluing machine normally have two ladies on the end of the machine that they put so many cartons in a constrainer and seal it up, or they put them in there and they would have somebody else that would seal them before they put in the automatic case sealer. I guess that is basically the jobs that they are working on primarily, the female-only jobs. Of course, you take two females to the machine and as many machines that you had in there was a big number of female employees. There were some other jobs in there, but those were 01:50:00mostly the female jobs what we call take off and feed and quality control.

FISHMAN: Did they start to move into what had been the men's jobs then after a while?

MOSS: Oh yeah. We had one case, little lady looked like she was -- her name was, um, Bunny Tucker. I doubt that she weighed over a hundred pounds. She kept applying for a forklift operator job. The company kept denying her the forklift operator job because they said she couldn't do it. I can remember her argument that if she could change a tire on an automobile, she could 01:51:00certainly drive a forklift. But the company always denied it on that section of the contract. These are male jobs, not female jobs. Then, after the changes were made, she bid on the job, and got the job, and stayed on it for a long time. Then, we had some that made operator in the apprenticeship department and basically made good operators. But it was the change in the, you know, transition when the government made us, you know, change working contracts.

FISHMAN: The union doesn't have any formal apprenticeship or training programs, or do you?

MOSS: No.

FISHMAN: [inaudible]

MOSS: Now, back whenever I first got involved, the international had a school at our headquarters which was Pressmen's Home, Tennessee. They had a school where a company could send people up there to learn to be offset pressmen. A few of the companies did take advantage of it. Mostly though not in speciality. Most of it was in a commercial [inaudible]. We did have an apprenticeship program back at that time for pressmen only.

FISHMAN: Did that open up to women in the '70s at some point?

MOSS: No. We sold the Pressmen's Home. It was sold in the early '70s, then moved the headquarters to Washington, DC. And whenever they sold the Pressmen's Home, they done away with the technical trade school.

FISHMAN: Was that…I noticed that in old correspondence was the name of the town actually Pressmen's Home, Tennessee, too?

MOSS: Yeah

FISHMAN: How did that [inaudible]

MOSS: No, no, it was Rogersville,

FISHMAN: Okay.

MOSS: Rogersville, Tennessee.

FISHMAN: So I was thinking [inaudible]

MOSS: We had the the the home, Pressmen's Home, we had the school there, we had the international headquarters, we had a hotel there, we had people live 01:54:00there, we had a golf course, women who . . . pretty much the works there.

FISHMAN: Was it available to all the members?

MOSS: You could take your…I forgot what the fee was, the rate was, but you carry your own vacation. You could stay up there in the hotel up there for practically nothing. And take your…it was in the mountains.

FISHMAN: When did they start that?

MOSS: When did they start it?

FISHMAN: Way back?

MOSS: Way back as I have been told. The history about it in Nashville--and again, Watkins can probably fill you in more better than I can. At one time, we had a lot of fresh pressmen, printing pressmen that come up with [inaudible]. 01:55:00You just have a lot printing companies that their presses was in the basement. They come down with tuberculosis. A person come down with tuberculosis and they could move up there and live there. It didn't cost them a dime to live there in the home. They had the individual housing, it was time we sold it. I think we had one or two people that was still at the time membership, voted. We still have one or two people that were living there. And the international, put them in rest homes and paid for it as long as they lived.

FISHMAN: Was it used mostly by people around the South and Southeast, or from all over?

MOSS: All over, pretty much all over.

FISHMAN: Where was it? You said in the mountains?

MOSS: Rogersville, Tennessee.

FISHMAN: Is that in the East?

MOSS: I would say it's kind of eastern part of Tennessee.

FISHMAN: Knoxville is the main city there in the mountainous area.

MOSS: I never went up there. One time it snowed, and you was pretty much in there.

FISHMAN: You were stuck for a while. We talked a little about women and the issue of race, also we saw a lot of changes in the years that you were active. Can you talk about that issue?

MOSS: Back…back in early…really… prior to 1964, there wasn't any black employees, there was only better paying jobs. They was on basically what you would call labor jobs. And there were some white males that was on those jobs too, but the blacks never got the opportunity to become a pressman.

FISHMAN: So which jobs…what was the names of the jobs they had?

MOSS: Strippers, some called them scrappers, some called them strippers on the..in the cutting department. Bring the material in and taking it out. Out, bringing…I guess you would call it the raw material in and then came the 01:58:00finished product out. Um. Shipping, they weren't shipping clerks, but they drove forklifts. Those are basically the types of job that the . . . We didn't have any black females working in the plant. We had an awful lot of black males, but no black females. I can recall in the plant too, the first black females that was brought in. They was brought in on the shift that I 01:59:00worked on and I was not sure when that was -- The company, plant superintendent, and production manager called me in the office and told me due to the civil rights movement, federal law was that they were going to have to start hiring black females and that they have to hire some. Some of the whites said that they wouldn't work with them. They wanted my input as to what I thought about it, and who I thought they needed to put them with to work with them. So, I 02:00:00told them who I thought they should put them with. And I said that I can talk to those ladies. I went down and talked to them, to the two ladies. And, um, they said, 'We are not going to work with them.'

FISHMAN: Those were the two that you thought would be ok with it.

MOSS: They said, 'We are not going to work with them.' I asked them, the question that I asked them, I said, 'wait a minute', I says 'you work right here by the side of black males, now what is the difference in working around a black employee and a black female employee?' They stood there and stared a minute, they said, 'I don't know, guess there isn't any.' I said, 'Then…then why not? Why don't you two take the lead with them?' They did, and we didn't have any probleAnd…and… at that point on, we never 02:01:00had a problem.

FISHMAN: That was at Mead?

MOSS: Yes. And we never had a problem as far as reviews in the work on the races and people working with each other.

FISHMAN: How were the supervisors with the issue of bringing in black employees?

MOSS: They never really did express that to us. I couldn't tell that it made any difference between them. I supposed the reason for it, management had told them what to do.

FISHMAN: Let them ride and act is what they say.

MOSS: Yeah. So, um, but it…we expected it to be a major issue, but it wasn't, it wasn't.

FISHMAN: Do you remember the times that they had to desegregate in the restrooms and things like that?

MOSS: Yeah, um, we were expecting that to be a major problem and surprising to all of us, it wasn't. It went off swell. Went off swell.

FISHMAN: Did they have much in the way of segregated facilities in the plants before in those earlier years? You have restrooms, I guess break rooms, maybe locker rooms or something.

MOSS: Yeah, they…they…you very seldom ever saw . . . Of course, it was before they started hiring black females. You very seldom ever saw a black male. They come in at one time, I remember the Atlanta Paper Company had it prior to Mead, prior to winning the campaign, the organizing campaign. They 02:03:00had a lunchroom out there. You go in there and serve steam paper style. And…and…but you would see blacks – well, in fact, in fact we had two dining areas, one for the black ones, one for the whites.

FISHMAN: Two whole separate di…food lines and everything of just the sitting?

MOSS: Yeah, two separate food lines, all separate. But then they did away with that prior to Mead getting involved and buying the plant, they have done away with that. Then, they just had a large break area with, you know, and sandwich machines and vending machines and that type of thing. Most people after that started carrying their own…own lunch. A few of them would eat…get stuff out 02:04:00of the vending machines, sandwich, coffee, Coke, that type of thing.

FISHMAN: Okay, you were saying that after integration there wasn't much problem?

MOSS: No, the…um…they only had one breakroom, and white and blacks both used it. They…they…you know, sat at the same table. There never was really a problem to integrate.

FISHMAN: Did things go smoothly within the union, too?

MOSS: Yeah, we had black stewards, none of the top officers, but we had 02:05:00executive board members that were black. But the president, secretary-treasurer business representative, vice-president was white. But we did have black shop Steward, we did have black executive board officers. We had a pretty even number on negotiating committees, out committees we always had those mixed, black and white, male and female. I guess probably as far back as I can 02:06:00remember, I guess James Parker, as pulled him off for Montag campaign primarily. He worked at a constrainer corporation. We pulled him out of the plant just to help us organize that plant because there were quite a few black workers. We pulled him off, and James done a super job. We kept him on, then we put him on, then we put him on as an organizer that was his title for several years. Then, he got to be vice-president of the local. And still doing a super job.

FISHMAN: Why do you think it went so smoothly inside the union? [inaudible]

MOSS: Well, we never…we as union officers, we never…we never tried to make a difference as far as blacks versus white. Um, It was basica…basically companies back then, they just wouldn't agree to promote the black or they wouldn't agree to promote females for the better jobs.

FISHMAN: Did…some unions when you go way back almost before you were active really, actually used to have segregated conventions and so forth and some didn't. Was that ever an issue?

MOSS: My first convention was in 1964, international convention in Washington, D.C. We…we…what is as far back as I can go. We never, we never…we always 02:08:00had black delegates at our convention. Back at that time, Commercial Printers, which is primarily is Local Number 8, they would not accept black members.

FISHMAN: Still, until sometime after that I guess?

MOSS: Yup. Until after the law changed. Which, and, 'til after 1964. For a while after that, they still didn't want to . . .

FISHMAN: Did they actually have a written policy or was it just practice? I'll have to ask somebody from the local.

MOSS: I don't remember a written policy, but they would never agree to takeone in as a member. That was the reason, I always thought that was the reason that 02:09:00commercial printers always carved out just the printing. And they could pretty much control it.

FISHMAN: They made it a lot easier.

MOSS: Um. They didn't…I don't think that they had any black members until, I don't think there was any black member in our international anywhere until they started the specialty segment of our international union, and that is the specialty segment. See the newspaper and your Commercial --the newspaper was called the Web Print. Your Commercial was like phone books, that type of thing, stationery and so forth. They didn't have any black members to carve out of 02:10:00the union. All right? Then, we had a vice-president by the name of Walter J. Turner and he said to the International board of directors that he wanted to start a specialty segment of our international union which would take everything from door-to-door. So that's what they done. When specialty went in, Commercial union would go in to organize, they would only organize the pressmen and the specialty segment of our international union. When we went in, we would take everybody in the plant, everybody. They was that way up until the law 02:11:00changed it, I guess 1964, when the law changed.

FISHMAN: And it took people a while after. When did they form specialties in the segment?

MOSS: That was before my time, I don't know what year, I just know that is the history of our international.

FISHMAN: Well, I wanted to ask a few questions, too, about other people and how they related to the union. We have talked a little about elected politicians a bit. I don't know if there are any others, mayors, governors or city council, people that you remember having a role with the union over the years?

MOSS: Um, really not that I, you know, know of any other time other than the 02:12:00strike that they had out there; one of the mayors ran for city council, the churches got involved. Preachers got involved.

FISHMAN: Did the union ever get very involved in some political campaigns around the city or state?

MOSS: Oh yeah, always up until about recent years, we would come out with an endorsement, um, especially in the federal elections, president, vice-president, senators, congressmen and so forth. Um, we always come out with a recommendation to remember. A lot of succession for a number of years and then it began to 02:13:00change. Why, I really don't know, other than the fact that you hear people say I'll make up my own mind, who I want to vote for.

FISHMAN: Why do you think people stopped paying…listening to the union's advice? Well, not stop, but didn't embrace it so strongly?

MOSS: I'm not really sure other than the fact that – and I'm not real sure of this, but I think the race issue had a lot to do with it. Um. It was, you know, [inaudible]. Unions that endorsed so and so wouldn't vote for them 02:14:00because they are too close to the blacks or the blacks would say, they wouldn't vote for 'em, 'cause certain races. They used to, back when, of course, you have to be a common member of the organization. The union did carry an awful lot of weight with the issue. Pretty much, whoever the union recommended was who we voted for. I guess this was the civil rights movement 02:15:00was started back with the [inaudible]

FISHMAN: Oh, here in Atlanta?

MOSS: Yeah, in the South with . . .

FISHMAN: Dr. King and others?

MOSS: Dr. King. Then, President Kennedy, he carried the ball before his assassination. And then after his assassination, Lyndon Johnson, I guess, done more to get things moving on civil rights than any other president that we have had, that I can recall, and I think it was rightfully so. I worked on a machine 02:16:00at Mead, I was a pressman, then, I was lead pressman, then, I was lead pressman out there. I never differentiate between employees because of race, I had --- each machine had anywhere from two to four scrappers on the machine. We had two guys that stopped the machines in the department that I worked in. I never had a problem with any of them. We were all employees trying to make a living.

FISHMAN: When you talk about the political gain too, a lot of unions have experienced that there was a lot more division than there used to be among their members on the national level, especially on presidential politics, where unions couldn't get people to come along quite so readily. It used to be that unions always endorsed a Democrat President. I guess even twenty, twenty-five years, there has been a lot of change there too. Have you seen that among your members?

MOSS: To some degree.

FISHMAN: They used to follow the lead –

MOSS: Um.

FISHMAN: It's not so clear as it was?

MOSS: I really can't remember the time when our international union ever endorsed anybody except a Democrat. And still, it's still that way this day. 02:18:00The members don't follow, neither the white or the black. Then after you begin to get more -- blacks began to run for offices. Then, you have a lot of blacks, not all of them, but a lot of the blacks would support the black candidate. And a lot of the white in our local here supported black candidates over white, whether it be Democrat or Republican. And, um, they pretty much got away from the party.

FISHMAN: Yeah.

MOSS: It's the person. Now, myself, I have always been strictly a Democrat, I have never voted for nothing but a Democrat, and don't plan to ever to vote for anything but a Democrat. I say that not because of my positions that I have with the union and labor. I have always since. I have been to work, I have never saw anything under a Republican administration that they have done to help working…card punching people, people that punch a time clock. I have never saw anything that they have done to take them over minimum wage, um….um…even 02:20:00Social Security.

FISHMAN: Sure.

MOSS: You go back and study the labor movement, they was behind everything that the working people should have got. It was always when a Democratic administration is in office when they was able to get any of these benefits for the working people passed, and that is why I am strictly democrat. I just, I'm not an [inaudible]

FISHMAN: Let me ask you a few questions associated with the union. You mentioned things like the Pressman's Home, the local in particular, did they also have any kind of recreational activities?

MOSS: The only…the only thing that I can go back, I guess it was 19 and 64, it was prior to the, you know, desegregation.

FISHMAN: Civil Rights Act.

MOSS: Civil Rights Act that our members back in the '60s, it might have been '63. The local executive board says you know why we don't do something for them? We would have shop steward training meeting which both was there. They said, 'Why don't we do something for them? Why don't we have a picnic?' 02:22:00They were split and it was carried to the membership and it was voted that the membership would have a picnic for the white and a picnic for the black. The blacks put their's together. I was not there, but some of the other officers of the local was there. They really had a nice picnic, but the whites was never able to put their's together.

FISHMAN: I wonder why?

MOSS: They couldn't agree on the location. Some wanted to be able to bring alcohol, of course the local wasn't going to furnish alcoholic beverages, pop, soda pop, and stuff like that, but no alcoholic beverages. Some of them wanted 02:23:00to be able to bring their own and some says no. You have some that wanted to drink beer or whiskey, and they wanted to bring it. You had a large group that didn't drink, and they said no. So, the white was never able to put it together. Then, what we started doing was once a year, we had a, um, started to have shop stewards dinner for the [inaudible]. White and black all together. It kept growing and growing and Ralph has really made a success out of it.

FISHMAN: They're still doing it.

MOSS: They are still doing it. It went from just that, having a dinner for them 02:24:00to having a shop steward seminar for the leaders who call it leadership seminar which is made up of the shop stewards, executive board officer, the local officers normally put on by the Georgia State AFL-CIO. We have had it put on by a federation mediation. For the last few years, they may be some of the mediators there play a little role. It is primarily Georgia State. And, um, it's just…it just kept growing, good turn out, all black, all white. It 02:25:00has--knock on wood--it has never been a problem. Never been a problem.

FISHMAN: A lot of unions thought it would be good to have cultural events, but that's not easy 'cause you probably have people that live all over the metro area, too?

MOSS: Oh yeah. We have locals now as far as Charlotte, North Carolina; Huntsville, Alabama; Jackson, Mississippi. They come. You know, we never had any problem. Everybody seems to enjoy it and have a good time. This is not because I am a member and have been an officer of this local union, but this has been 02:26:00one of the most aggressive and I have worked with a lot of local unions, but this has been the most aggressive that I know of any fashion that I know of. It's a local union that has always wanted to collect the dues, yeah, but we want to put part of that dues money back into the members hands some way or another.

FISHMAN: Mmhmm.

MOSS: Ralph started to help with the local union, it's second to none as far as hospitalization and has done a marvelous job.

FISHMAN: You have a scholarship fund I think?

MOSS: Well, the international started an Anthony J. Deandrea, he was the president of the international when we were organized. He passed away, so they started up a scholarship fund through the international and in his honor and his name. Then, then the local, and Ralph will have to fill you in on it. but the local started one with the local. It was called the Jeannette Lasser. Jeannette was recording secretary of his local union for years, years and years. Her health got bad and she had to retire, but started a Jeannette Lasser scholarship fund. Then, they started what they call a Ralph Meers scholarship fund. He 02:28:00has, I think it was two scholarship funds within the local. But, um, oh I'm not -- we still don't some proble We will as long as we have members, but they are minimum; we have some proble We don't have any real big issues, the local. And we merged as I stated earlier, I went to work for the council and stayed with the council from 1970 until this past January 1st. I now work part-time for the local. I guess you could call it a special systems order on a 02:29:00consultant basis or whatever needs assistance in and I can help them. And we have merged most of the locals of the district council covered the Southeast. We have merged out of all those locals as far as Birmingham, Alabama, Huntsville, LaGrange, Spartanburg, South Carolina. All in the 527; and and, we have…527 is pretty spread out all the way as far as Jackson, Mississippi.

FISHMAN: Right. What is the sum of membership these days? The number?

MOSS: I believe the last…the last figure that I heard Ralph – was was probably around 1500.

FISHMAN: And you keep up with…

MOSS: I don't keep up with that, but I hear it was around $50.

FISHMAN: They probably represent how many employees? All together

MOSS: [inaudible] I would say about 1,800 - 2,000. At one time when we organized Montag, Mead still had around a thousand [inaudible] employees. When 02:31:00we organized Montag that put us about 2,500. Then the plant closes. This high-tech equipment that has eliminated a lot of the jobs. And, so it still has 1500 . . .

FISHMAN: Let me ask you, you mentioned scholarships that makes me think of the whole issue of families and the relationship of the union to union families, and how supportive that is or how important that is to your career. You married at some point along the way.

MOSS: Yeah.

FISHMAN: Is your wife in the industry as well in the union?

MOSS: My present wife was. My ex-wife wasn't. But, um. She worked in…my 02:32:00present wife, she worked in the printing business, which at one time when it was organized, it was called Miller and Miller. Then, Miller and Miller sold to Union Camp. Union Camp Union sold – see…that plant, Miller and Miller plant was a label plant that built a new plant out at Sone Mountain and went into the foam carton business and label, both. And my wife worked at the label division. The doctor stopped her. They sold Miller and Miller to Union Camp. Union Camp then turned aroud and sold to -- When Union Camp turned around and sold it to 02:33:00Labor Division of Paramount…'cause they didn't want to be in the labor business, then they turned around and then sold it the foam carton business to Container Corporation. Container Corporation then turned around and sold to the Jefferson Schmurik Cooperation. That plant has changed several times. My wife started off with Miller and Miller, which was organized just prior to Mead; and she was union member longer than I had been an union member, up until the doctor stopped her working there for ill health in 1970.

FISHMAN: The reason I asked, too, is that some unions especially since the workforce used to be all men, there would be a lady's auxiliary of some sort. 02:34:00Did this union ever have wives or families involved in that way? [inaudible]

MOSS: Not to my knowledge.

FISHMAN: Um, I did want to, before we conclude, get your impressions of what you would have done differently, what were the best parts and the hardest parts of [inaudible]

MOSS: Let me go back to one other campaign with you. That was not this local that was over in Huntsville, Alabama. More business for [Interruption]. More business for We had a couple of guys that called me, an international representative by the name of Larry Smith that I mentioned earlier. We went 02:35:00over and had a meeting with a group. And I guess they were probably seventy-five people we signed up about 3/4 of the people that was in that meeting.

FISHMAN: At the first meeting?

MOSS: The first meeting. There was around a little over two hundred people that worked there. There was a business forms then. Then, they assigned two organizers.

FISHMAN: Okay. Yeah.

MOSS: I worked with those two organizers, one of them is named David Graphorn, 02:36:00the other one is named Miller Wiggum. We won the campaign. I didn't do much house calling, but I attended organizing meetings. I carried literature, we would have it printed here, I'd carried it over there and so forth. I worked closely with those two organizers. We organized the plant and won the elections. Miller Wiggum was the union spokesman. And the company would come in meet half a day. Their attorney Sears, I believe of Ft. Worth, Texas. He and one of their company's vice presidents for the company and the local management. They would meet with us for a half a day and break it off. Two or 02:37:00three weeks later we would meet for another half day and or day then break it off. That went on for six months or longer. Then international vice president, Wade Moore [inaudible] president of the international. He assigned vice president Wade Moore, which had been the most successful at that time. It was most successful negotiator on the international international staff [inaudible]. Finally, the people deserted us, but it was a vicious strike. A viscious. I was 02:38:00told, I never talked to the sheriff, [inaudible] two of the guys come over to the hospital to visit me. While I was in the hospital. They told me the sheriff, I don't know what the sheriff's name was, said tell me that if I come back over there that he would have to take me out. He was not going. You know. You know.

FISHMAN: Come looking for you?

MOSS: Yeah. And, um, so I called the international president whenever I got back to go back work, and he said well don't go back. We'll, you know, get it straightened out. Those guys told me that there was eighteen warrants. They had 02:39:00eighteen, including myself. And, for, assault with intent to murder. And my name was on each one of the other seventeen [inaudible]. So, there was, as I said, a vicious strike.

FISHMAN: It was probably an assult with an intent to murder whom?

MOSS: Um, well.

FISHMAN: Somebody on the picket line?

MOSS: No, not over there. There was a lumber yard, sawmill just up the road. That guy up there would let us have all the wood we wanted to burn for fire and we had barrels, you know, set up. I guess there was twenty-five, thirty barrels sitting across us this way from the plant. I don't know how many people. 02:40:00There was me and one individual standing there at the barrel. Two or three of them walking and picketing. One guy was laying and had a sleeping bag and he was laying down on the side of the barrel. And there was sixteen shops. We went through the glass doors of the personnel office. They never…um… the police, the…what are they called? Alabama GBI. But anyhow [inaudible]

FISHMAN: Public safety or something.

MOSS: They were all up there and all over me about it. I don't know anything about it. You couldn't find the first one, not the first one. All of those guys carried a rifle rack, a gun rack in there. Most of them drove pickup trucks and had a gun rack in it. And, they…well…the law enforcement, if they caught any more vehicles that had a gun in it that they was going to arrest me and that person. I stayed over there part of the time and Wiggum stayed over there part of the time. And, um, then I was over there one afternoon. I come 02:42:00home and Wiggum was coming in the next day, so late that evening, I come home. That night about half the little town [inaudible]. They tried to say that...the business foremen tried to say that the striking workers were the ones who done it. The fire department, fire chief over there ordered to put in the paper -- said it was caused from bad wiring. They was, as I said, it was vicious, but we finally lost it because of people in the company. You know, we filed charges. 02:43:00They terminated…they terminated, I think it was twenty-three employers. See at one time, we told the people ok, go back and tell the company, we'll go back to work. We'll continue to negotiate, go back and tell them we will return if they were returned to work. How the strike started, we had a meeting scheduled on Sunday, I think it was Thursday, the third shift. We didn't even know about it. They went out on strike and it bloomed there. And the company, you 02:44:00know, couldn't get it from me, but people finally got disgusted. And, but the plant closed in about less than a year. The company, NLRB, we filed charges. Did you ever know about [inaudible] with the International labor relations? The board left [inaudible] and went to Washington and something with the board.

FISHMAN: Right, the name is familiar just because of that.

MOSS: [inaudible] And then, we hired an attorney, out of Gadsden, Alabama by the name of Reese. And they had to pay out as well as I remember something like 02:45:00$300,000. The company did to the people they…

FISHMAN: Fired workers.

MOSS: Fired. Then one of the supervisors over there, take my warrant for a one of the strikers. They had property that joined each other. They both had some cattle. The striker took some cattle to the sale and sold them. And the supervisor thought he stole it out of his pasture. The company fired to him and that went to court and it seemed to me like that guy wanted something. He got an attorney by the name of Reese [inaudible] international foot the bill. I 02:46:00think the jury fined the guy thirty-some thousand dollars, then the judge turned around and overruled him [inaudible]. That was the most vicious strike I ever have been in. I guess more changes on the job, so many, many changes on the job, to hand feeders on the machines to automatic feeders, new conveyor systems in the plant where it used to take a dozen people to move the stock away from 02:47:00the machines was done by conveyor syste The equipment is, you know, changed where it doesn't take as much help. It turns out more production. It has been a tremendous change in that aspect of the work force, but it has been interesting.

FISHMAN: In terms of your experience too, if you could instruct younger union leaders about what you think they should be doing in the future, what would you say?

MOSS: Well, my encouragement to them, to anybody, is take an active…if the plant they are working is unorganized is to organize and take an active role in...in…you know, union activities. It is the only weapon that the labor has. 02:48:00Um. Organizing is almost impossible, especially in the South. I don't know about other parts of the country, but in the South, organizing is almost a dead issue. Um, companies has gone from unorganized plants has gone from hiring full-time employees to hiring part-time employees with no benefits. And in my opinion, I'm probably not going to live to see the day that it's going to 02:49:00change, but it is going to change. [inaudible]

FISHMAN: What do you think will make it change?

MOSS: Well, I think that the part-time, full-time help with no benefits, I think the change in my opinion when it first comes back is going to be within the, what has always been known is white-collared office employees and white-collared workers, but I think it is all going to come back. I think there will be, in my opinion, they will be the worst battles that have ever been fought in organizing is to come yet. I think they are going to see, as I said, I won't live to see 02:50:00it, but you'll see a lot of bloodshed over organizing.

FISHMAN: Do you mean literally?

MOSS: Literally. People eventually are going to get tired of this rhetoric, you are better off without a union, unions can't do anything for you. They are going to get tired of that working forty, fifty, sixty hours a week with no benefits, no vacations, no holidays, no insurance. No pension. I honestly feel that's going to change the wor…labor force. And it's going to be… how 02:51:00long it's going to be . . . Your guess is as good as mine, but I would say that within the next eight to ten years, I think you are going to start seeing a change. And as time goes on, I would say from the next…the year, 2000 to 2020, there is going to be a big comeback in the labor movement, but you are going to see a lot of bloodshed when it comes back.

FISHMAN: [inaudible]