CHRIS LUTZ: Chris Lutz recording Billy Powell, Atlanta, Georgia, 1995.
Powell, can you tell us where and when you were born?BILLY POWELL: I was born in 1934 in Atlanta, Georgia, off of, um, Ashby Street.
LUTZ: Ashby Street? Where's that?
POWELL: On White Avenue. [inaudible] My mother died in 1939, and, um, my father
died in '39. Three brothers and a sister. I had 4 aunts and uncles, and each one of them took one of us and raised us here in Atlanta. And, um, I attended Roosevelt High School. It used to be the old girls high; they changed it over to 00:01:00a co-educational. Quit school when I was seventeen in the 10th grade. And, um, went into the Navy -- Korea [inaudible] invasion and came out of that. And about '54 I participated in the hydrogen test in the Pacific Ocean and some types of radiation protection. And, um.LUTZ: Hang on now, we are going to take back now.
POWELL: [inaudible]
LUTZ: Were…were you raised in the same part of Atlanta that you were born in?
POWELL: Basically, the West End, but I was basically raised around the Grant
Park area.LUTZ: Oh, yeah? What was it like back then?
POWELL: It was beautiful! Maybe middle class. The park was real woodsy.
00:02:00LUTZ: Did they have a zoo there?
POWELL: They had a zoo, swimming pool and a lake that you could row in. Of
course the Cyclorama was the big draw. You know, and, um…LUTZ: Did you go to the Cyclorama when you were a kid?
POWELL: Yeah, oh yeah. I went a whole bunch of times, still go, I love it.
LUTZ: [inaudible]
POWELL: I think it's fabulous. It's changed the [inaudible] had to come
over and paint it for us.LUTZ: Maybe that was some of that Atlanta renaissance. We don't have a good
enough artist even though [inaudible]. You know?POWELL: Yeah
LUTZ: Well, we better get someone from Europe to do it because they have got
the culture.POWELL: Ride horses, real nice. It's a real stable community. Of course,
back when I was coming up, all communities was stable. You didn't have any type problem, you know. 00:03:00LUTZ: Um, did you get into any trouble yourself when you were a kid, minor trouble?
POWELL: Not that I caught on. No, I was a pretty good kid. You know, when
you're not living with your parents you have to be straight, or you might not have no place to live when you get back. I worked most of the time. Ron Napty used to be with the IBE...IBEW, you know, the international and union civil services was together.LUTZ: Where did you work as a soda jerk?
POWELL: In Grant Park, in the neighborhood pharmacy.
LUTZ: Uh huh
POWELL: Neighborhood pharmacy.
LUTZ: Why did you drop out of school when you were 17?
POWELL: Wanted to go into the service. I had two brothers in it. Just one of
00:04:00those goofy things that you do. I finished my GED in Japan. [inaudible] I had skipped the first and seventh grade. And, um, [inaudible] I would have probably graduated early and had I not quit.LUTZ: Were you considered an exceptionally bright kid then?
POWELL: No, uh uh, I had the measles when I was in the first grade, then they
put me in the second grade. In '46 and '47 they added seventh grade onto the grammar schools and the eighth grade on the high schools. I had been in sixth grade and some of them they promoted onto the eighth grade because they were overloaded, so I went into the eighth grade. And…LUTZ: Boy, they just shoved you around.
POWELL: Yeah, they were trying to get rid of me.
[break]
POWELL: [inaudible] It was a real treat working for the drug store, you got all
00:05:00the ice cream you wanted.LUTZ: That's what Mike says about Ingles. The one thing that makes him not
want to organize a union except for the fact that he is only sixteen, is that he says, 'But, they give me so much candy.' [inaudible] [laughter]POWELL: That's what makes you proud to be an American, right there--it don't
get no better than that. [laughter]LUTZ: You are seventeen years old and you go off to Korea to the middle of a
war. It must have been really shocking for a young guy.POWELL: Well, I didn't even know there was a war going on.
LUTZ: What branch of the service did you go?
POWELL: Navy.
LUTZ: Navy.
POWELL: Spent four years in it. I just thought I would go into the service
instead of going to school. Just had a real war going on.LUTZ: Yeah. So, um, tell me, if you don't mind, some people don't like to
talk about it. Tell me about Pusan. 00:06:00POWELL: Well, um, the North Korean had them all pushed down into a corner of
Pusan, you know, the South Koreans. I functioned well. They, um, the Americans and Allies dumped all of the ammunition and stuff into the harbor where they captured it. You know, so, had to make the Inchon invasion. We went into the Hoshan to try to clear the harbor out. I was on the side with the demolition when the war -- We went to Inchon after we got the VT established. We went on into Inchon, and the North Koreans had sunk a ship cross ways in the channel so the big boats couldn't get in to land the draft. So, we went in and blew that up and cleared the harbor. After that, we went to the Philippines. We were 00:07:00going to blow up a ship there in the Harbor, but it had American cruisers on it. [inaudible]LUTZ: Now, so okay, here you are a young guy. Did you look at this as just
another job, or was it exciting or was it scary?POWELL: Well, it was…once I got in it, it was scary because I hadn't been
away from Atlanta. Then, getting out of San Francisco, you know, overseas, it was about five weeks I was in Japan. Of course, that's a whole different ball game to a seventeen year old kid in Japan. I was having a good time, you know. I enjoyed that Navy. Then, about two weeks we left and went to Korea. I had a good time. [inaudible] specially made. They called us gypsy suckers -- pull up on beaches and get out, you know, and dive. 00:08:00LUTZ: Where you are needed?
POWELL: Yeah. It was designed so we could just run it up on the beach.
LUTZ: Nice.
POWELL: We'd tied up and anchored out in the harbor somewhere. It was interesting.
LUTZ: Yeah.
POWELL: Demolition and stuff like that.
LUTZ: What exactly did you do?
POWELL: I was in the engine room for a while. [inaudible] Did a little diving,
shallow water diving. In the hydrogen test, I did some shallow water diving. [inaudible] lagoon bombed.LUTZ: Since you mentioned bomb. Let me ask you about Nagit. You were involved
in the test of the hydrogen bomb?POWELL: Yeah. [inaudible]
00:09:00LUTZ: Can you tell me some about that?
POWELL: They didn't tell us anything about it, you know. It was top secret.
We went out, I was on a little boat. Actually there was two of them. We were on one in the 40s, I wasn't on it then, but we went back to the largest boat. We went in and backed out about fifteen miles and they set it off. And, um. And, um. The initial flash, you know, the light, shock wave and the fireball and all that. We went back under it, the mushroom.LUTZ: You went right back under it?
POWELL: Yeah. In fact, we ran fire hoses all up the mast and around the
[inaudible] sprinkler heads on them. Turned them all on. We kept the ship in a 00:10:00fog or mist when the radiation comes down hopefully wash it over, wash it off the ship. We would go out and test the radiation, you know. The gear you had on. Um.LUTZ: Did they give you special gear?
POWELL: No, [inaudible] just typical fire weather gear.
LUTZ: You still have these on.
POWELL: I glow in the dark every night, other than that, I'm alright. I am
president of the Atomic Veteran's Association. [inaudible]LUTZ: What is the Atomic Veteran's Association?
POWELL: Well, it's a group of people that were in the Nagasaki, Hiroshima
troops and all that was exposed to radiation, basically the radiation exposure. And the people that were given tests in the Los Alamos and you know, TBA. In 00:11:00fact they give us some in the nuclear subs. And…and, um, all the tests they had in the Pacific, people in the services been exposed to radiation.LUTZ: And do you lobby for better health care?
POWELL: Yeah. Lobby for benefits. Similar to what Agent Orange was . . .
LUTZ: Yeah.
POWELL: You know, they were the actually the first go for benefits for radiation
exposure, atomic vets. They attacked the Agent Orange Bill and they kind of overshadowed the atomic. . .LUTZ: [inaudible] What kind of benefits do you all have now? [inaudible]
00:12:00POWELL: Typical VA benefits. If you really got to play them, you know you have
got to go through an act of congress to get anything. It's really not service committed because you glow in the dark. Radiation.LUTZ: That was kind of a diversion but I never knew about that. That's very
interesting. And, um, it's part of our history, too. Okay. What did it look like? I mean, I…for our listeners of the future?POWELL: What's that?
LUTZ: What did it look like to see that huge fireball?
POWELL: It was really in the ocean. They set it off about day break. It looks
like a giant vanilla ice-cream cone really. The bottom parts are orange which is the fire and it goes up till it hits the stratosphere, then the mushroom goes 00:13:00out. You know, it's like a giant vanilla ice-cream cone.LUTZ: Amazing.
POWELL: Yeah, it's an awesome sight. But, then the light was so intense, I put
my arm up. It was so intense, I dropped it to see if I still had it up there, you know, just that brief flash. Of course, I was supposed to watch out for a shock wave which I thought to be [inaudible] but it wasn't. It was pressure like you go up a mountain and your ears pop. You know. I was looking for a wave, then all of a sudden I grab my head 'cause all that pressure hits your ears. That is basically it, but you can't rid of the roar and sheer power that was unleashed. I'd hate to be…I hate to be one of those. They dropped a lot of those guys. A lot of people talk about they ought to nuke them or do 00:14:00that. They don't really understand what they are talking about when they talk about nuclear [inaudible].LUTZ: Yeah. My husband talks about that on Bosnia and I keep trying to tell
him, 'No, it doesn't work that way.'POWELL: Well, you're right.
LUTZ: Um, well, let's get you into the labor movement. You come back out of
the Navy. What was your first job when you became a civilian?POWELL: I went to work for Southern Bell as a helper in '55. And I stayed a
helper [inaudible] and I stayed about 6 or 7 years. [inaudible]LUTZ: What did you do?
POWELL: I was a cable splicer.
LUTZ: What does a cable splicer, actually?
POWELL: He puts the lines together, you know all the lines that they have
00:15:00underground, in the air. And they don't do it any more. [inaudible]LUTZ: That means it's an outdoor job? [inaudible]
POWELL: In the manhole.
LUTZ: Being a young guy, I bet you got in a lot of manholes. [laughter]
POWELL: Yeah, yeah, yeah [laughter] A lot of history in this town. I wasn't
like Norton on Jackie Gleason deck. I do a better job than he does. I stayed a splicer until about '66 or '67, I guess. And I found out you could that you could get . . . [interruption] [inaudible] But, um, I stayed that way until 00:16:00about '66 or '67.LUTZ: Let's not get you out of the 50s yet. I want to ask you about the 50s.
Were you living in Atlanta then?POWELL: Mmhmm.
LUTZ: Whereabouts in Atlanta were you staying?
POWELL: I stayed in Grant Park right off of Cherokee Avenue down in Grant Park,
Augusta Avenue right around in that area.LUTZ: What was Atlanta like in the 60s.
POWELL: Oh, it was a beautiful city, safe, you could walk, you could leave your
door open.LUTZ: Mmhmmm. What did you do for fun?
POWELL: Where at? Work, that's about all I have ever done is work.
LUTZ: Were you married?
POWELL: I got married in '58.
LUTZ: So did you take your wife out on any dates? Or did you [inaudible]
POWELL: Well, I believe I was living in her home. I was working for a little
00:17:00grill over right there, part-time. [inaudible] She used to come in there.LUTZ: Worked, worked, worked, all the time. Huh? Pretty much what you had to
do to have a living then or was just that just what you like doing?POWELL: Well, we lived at home, lived with my aunt and them, they were still
there too. [break]LUTZ: There we goo.
POWELL: Well, it was just a thing back then, all the kids worked. It wasn't a
whole lot of you going to college. The first thing you do is get a job. When I got married, I got the family to live with us. 00:18:00LUTZ: Um, and um, when did you first become a member of the CWA?
POWELL: In, um, the second day I was [inaudible] work. One of the old timers
gave me a union card, and I signed it up. I had never even heard of unions. I didn't even know even what a break was when I went to work.LUTZ: Uh huh
POWELL: I never had been exposed to that type of work.
LUTZ: Well you were coming off…um….you were coming in right after what had
to be one of the most significant strikes in Southern history.POWELL: Oh yeah.
LUTZ: Was the spirit pretty militant or were people over it?
POWELL: No, no. It still carries over today from the '55 strikes, a 72 days
strike. Not being familiar with strikes and that type of stuff -- Then, I went to work being through the strike, he gave me a union card and I signed it. There wasn't any debate about it. Then, I was going to go for people that scab and all that business I wasn't, you know, associated with them. Of 00:19:00course, we didn't have that many. Scared, isolated, didn't nobody have anything. And, um, that went on for years.LUTZ: Uh huh
POWELL: They would start scared of so and so, scared of this, it wasn't Joe
Blo or something. They carried that label with them. They never shook that label. [break]LUTZ: Lemme um….there we go. Ok, so we are in the CWA, you joined the CWA.
When did get…when did you become active?POWELL: About '66, '67. I found out that you signed up for a non-member to
00:20:00the local, they give you two dollars a card. So, I was pretty good at talking and it was easy money, you know. So I was out signing up these people. They sent me a little check for $312 dollars. That was big money. And, um, then they noticed my name keep popping up on these cards, they called me down and asked me if I would do some organizing. They certified me as a Steward just to organize. And I started organizing, not full time - just when I was about to get off the job and I'd go ask somebody. About '68 they had an opening for a plant representative. I ran for that and was elected. I kept that. 00:21:00LUTZ: How come you ran? Why did you decide to run?
POWELL: The other workers wanted me to. [laughter] I stayed that rep for two
years in '70 or '71, I became the vice-president. I ran for vice-president and I kept that a year and a half. The president had to step down and they appointed me president. I feel I just turned and then I was elected three other times. But…[break]LUTZ: Let's start with the union Steward. I want to take you up through the
different jobs. What were your specific as union Steward?POWELL: Well, um…
LUTZ: Recruiting?
POWELL: That's probably number one. I represented just the plant department
00:22:00and outside people in grievances and complaints. That's about it.LUTZ: Mmhmm. Then, you were plant rep. What did you do for that?
POWELL: Just as a plant rep. I didn't have any time as a Steward other than
some organizing time.LUTZ: Yeah, uh huh.
POWELL: Then, when I ran for plant rep -- They normally sent in an experienced
person, you know. I never really had to do it, handle it by myself or jeopardize the members. They all complained -- inexperienced and stuff. It's more of a training process, the regions handle it.LUTZ: Actually, I remember that very well. I was a CWA steward myself for a
little while. Um. They never wanted to go into a room by myself.POWELL: Be careful.
LUTZ: Okay, and then, onto higher office.
POWELL: Vice-president.
LUTZ: Mmhmm.
00:23:00POWELL: They had two vice-presidents, one in charge of organizing and community
services [inaudible]. So, I handled the organizing.LUTZ: What exactly did you do for that?
POWELL: Well, it was a lot of work. We got about 81 memberships at one period
of time. I guess in the early seventies. Let me come in and they give their [inaudible] to their new hires, training center. They would turn it over to me for a period time and let me explain the unions. They would listen. That was where my major success was that I had a captive audience [inaudible]LUTZ: That's the idea.
00:24:00POWELL: I just passed out the cards, the new hires, I just basically just said,
sign these three places and what we do with them. That would happen about 15 to 20 minutes -- That went on for several months, five or six months. Then, the company came back. [inaudible] I had captive audience and [inaudible]. I continued to organize for about a year and a half. The day I was president, I got sick, and I had to step down. And, um, they, um…the board appointed me. I had been expelled when I got the job; I just have been running again. Organizing, by the time I had it organized, a lot of people knew me cause I 00:25:00would sign them up. I didn't know then, but I had signed them up. [inaudible] 1980 to '81. In '84, I retired.LUTZ: Okay, now, as you were being president, do any negotiations stick out in
your mind particularly?POWELL: The, um…
LUTZ: [inaudible]
POWELL: The, um…during the Nixon term and all these who was out and Joe Burns
was at the international president back then, called us back in before we had a contract ratified. And I know everybody is divided. We got about a six or seven 00:26:00percent vote increase. We came back to work that day and the next day making put to wage price raising, 3 points, fifty percent on, you know, which I thought was not good for us. We never had any major strikes. We went up to the wire, we never -- We have always had good relations like during the sixties was the Dale system.LUTZ: Well, how come you had good relations?
POWELL: Because they had more power than we did. [laughter]
LUTZ: [laughter][inaudible]
POWELL: Their system opposed to other unions where you go to the labor council
00:27:00or local unions, they send you out on the job. They do the hiring and we have to present you to join. You know, the CWA, depends on what department or where you are located with the company, sometimes you don't have access…real good access to labor movement or a union. You are more associated with the company or the managers than you are, you know…LUTZ: Scattered around the state.
POWELL: You know, a lot of clerks and all--they are just hard to cling with what
the union can offer them when they are trying to make X money for the family. You know…LUTZ: Well, that's one good reason to have relations.
POWELL: We've never really been a militant type of organization. The
technology that we have had, you can't be too militant when computers can take 00:28:00your jobs, and, you know, -- optic fibers and stuff like that.LUTZ: Yeah, I wanted to ask you, how did technology affect the work while you
were there?POWELL: Um [inaudible]
LUTZ: We will come back to that one. It was hard being in touch with other
unions or even, I bet other CWA levels. How did you manage to stay in touch?POWELL: We didn't. The national district office, the kind of trickle down
effect for us. They basically ran the show. Local CWA, locals don't do anything--they had to have the guy in the district office, unless you get the big locals like Atlanta used to be Miami before wages split it up. The big 00:29:00locals that the operation they're on, you get the smaller CWA locals -- they could be a number of bigger locals that will stay up.LUTZ: Um, let me ask this. Um, does the CWA district say, split up a big local
so it doesn't get much power or the national, or is it just convenience?POWELL: The members have to be it. You get a big area like Atlanta and they try
to retire them to the Atlanta local level. You get people in Norcross, Gwinnett County area, and all that, they don't want to come down town to Atlanta. You get people on the south side like Jonesboro, Forest Park area. They think you ought to have one down in their area, but you get enough votes on the floor to put the votes going, they could split. Then…if I went down to Nashville and didn't like, I'd take the power or delegate strength out of the local's hands. 00:30:00LUTZ: Huh.
POWELL: Miami…they split the Miami local into three locals. If we all three
didn't agree, they just canceled each other out, instead of having 6,000 members lock approach, you just needed maybe a 1,000, or 1,500.LUTZ: Hmm. Um, people have told me that you were involved in a lot of social
work activities, charity.POWELL: [inaudible]
LUTZ: Will you tell me about a few of them? There was a bike-a-thon, I
remember that one and there was some others while you were still active.POWELL: I rented a [inaudible] in Central City Park. First job [inaudible].
Dresses up my secretary and my stewards as robots. 00:31:00LUTZ: [laughter] That's funny.
POWELL: Yeah. Put a sign on them that said, "We're people, not machines."
And brought them in from all over Florida, Georgia, the Carolinas. And bus brigades coming in. I timed it at 12:00. All units, you know, everybody coming out for lunch wanting to know what all that. Hired a guitarist to play. Just had a big bazaar and played around with headquarters, the bail system, put signs on robots. About 15,000. Then I did it again on J. P. Stevens in '75.LUTZ: Is that right? Tell me about it.
POWELL: I put a bed down in Central City Park. Maybe I can remember now, with a
secretary and all something that you wouldn't, if it was J. P. Stevens I 00:32:00forget exactly how it came out. Friend over at the office was the secretary that did it. She wouldn't be, or something like that, on that bed if it was J. P. Stevens stuff. Then, charged some buses to the solidarity day in Washington.LUTZ: Did you get a big turn out from the CWA for that?
POWELL: Huh?
LUTZ: Did you get a big turn out from the CWA?
POWELL: Yeah, we had two bus loads. [inaudible]
LUTZ: What was that bike-a-thon?
POWELL: That was for the City of Hope Hospital for Cancer Research Act.
00:33:00California was to build them while you labor the place in Philadelphia and see [inaudible] out of the labor state. Fourteen hundred miles from Stone Mountain to Boston. We timed it where our convention was going to be in Boston whatever year it was -- thirtieth or 40, whatever convention it was. We timed it where we would come to Boston on the Fourth of July. Labor movement. I did celebrate labor on its anniversary.LUTZ: Okay. Tell us, give me some years on these. [inaudible] What year was
the bike-a-thon?POWELL: '81.
LUTZ: J. P. Stevens . . .
00:34:00POWELL: They were back in the mid seventies.
LUTZ: Okay, and then, the job pressure . . .
POWELL: Back in the mid seventies.
LUTZ: Carter president?
POWELL: Um…I don't remember. Well, he was during part of my term. We got
to come to a reception in the White House and see him, and um…LUTZ: Did you get to go yourself personally?
POWELL: Yes.
LUTZ: What was that like?
POWELL: Kind of made me want to steal something up there. You know all trinkets
and all that, you're scared. They had a little band sitting there. They played us the violins, the harpists. You could go through. They had wine and cheese. I found out that you could take the bottle once the bottle has been empty. It was a feeling inside. It's not like the tour, you know, you walk 00:35:00through. You just stand there, you know, and Abraham Lincoln, Kennedy and all these other people--that this is actually where they were.LUTZ: It must have been neat. Um, so you…you are a yellow dog Democrat?
POWELL: Oh yeah.
LUTZ: Do you feel that the Democrats in Georgia have supported unions the way
they should? [inaudible]POWELL: I think they go hand in hand in the state. I don't know if we ever
had to file charges against the Democratic Party. [inaudible] I'm not that much of a politician. We have had to support, probably for about the last fifteen or twenty years. You know, it used to be that no labor person was really welcomed at the Capitol. Very few people would be identified with labor. All 00:36:00that has turned around ever since the late sixties or something. Labor people deal with them, like their endorsement and so forth. And usually they said they wanted the money behind the doors, don't put it in public. There still a few of those around. By in large, labor respects them. You know. I was a city doorkeeper over there. I was the Senate doorkeeper of the Capitol for about three or four years.LUTZ: Um, what did you do?
POWELL: Open doors for the Senators.
LUTZ: [laughter] Let me rephrase that. Why did you do that?
POWELL: Zell was Lieutenant Governor, they hired me. You gotta keep the people
00:37:00a secret [inaudible] maintain the [inaudible] don't let people come barging in. You know. Once they opens doors, do a little curtsey for the Senators. [inaudible] You get to meet a whole lot of people. Did a lot of [inaudible].LUTZ: Um, what memorable people stand out in your mind? Thinking about
politicians who aren't always the most memorable. Out…out of all these years in the labor movement, who stands out in your mind as an mentor?POWELL: Of course, 69 or 70, somewhere along that. And, um, I have been
associated with. Hadn't always been exactly like what we wanted. But, um, deep into it. You know, deep into labor. You know, labor hadn't necessarily all the time been good. But, um, in, of course…Andrew Young was heavily 00:38:00involved in Mayor Jackson's campaign. Not so much John Lewis even though on the way, you know, stuff -- I guess my time would be Mayor Jackson, Andrew Young, Zell Miller, and Ben Jones. You know.LUTZ: Ben Jones said the funniest joke in history. [inaudible] Is that. . .
.[break] Here we go. Maynard Jackson, why did you think Maynard Jackson was good for labor?POWELL: He was an endorsed candidate. The truth is, I forgot who he was running against.
00:39:00LUTZ: It was Sam Massell one time.
POWELL: He was the mayor, but I'm not sure -- Did he run against Sam? Did
Sam run again? I know he called me down. He thought that maybe Sam's phone was bugged, you know, when he went out of office at city hall. I guess he'd had nothing against Sam. Sam never associated with the people. [break]LUTZ: Okay, and, um, you were saying about Sam Massell.
POWELL: He was not associated. He never had been associated with labor.
LUTZ: He's with the Buckhead Business Association.
POWELL: [inaudible] He wanted -- Of course, Andy was too. Andy ran for Congress.
00:40:00LUTZ: What did you do when Andy ran against Zell in the initial things for the
governor's race?POWELL: Um, I stuck with Zell. In that race, the locals are going to do what
they want to anyway. I don't care what the cost is by and large. The only time we have ever been together as one is in the state. District politician was the same [inaudible] labor commissioner. He ran against me. Ben Huiet [inaudible] the best thing that ever happened to labor in this state.LUTZ: Sam Caldwell was.
POWELL: I don't have much respect for him. Maynard, Andrew. Well they've
00:41:00been mostly 100 percent.LUTZ: It must have been a tough choice.
POWELL: Basically they left the local since they all had some. Of course Andy
is in metro area some of them was there when he ran for Congress. [inaudible] I was with Zell. Andy, when I was with him when he ran for Congress, he had to be of district. Early--I was with Watts [?] right after he left the city council and ran.LUTZ: Getting back to Maynard, I got you distracted. Why do you think Maynard
was good for labor? 00:42:00POWELL: I was going in the endorsement.
LUTZ: Do you think he proved out to be a good candidate?
POWELL: Well I do, yeah. He got some problems with the garbage workers when he
first went in and a lot of that was kind of broadsided. I found that he was forced into the position and had to take a stand. He probably really didn't want to be put in that position. I think all that [inaudible] period of time. I think he did great. All the mayors said that Maynard went in and then basically pro-union not anti-, which was a plus.LUTZ: How about Ben Jones?
00:43:00POWELL: He was an endorsed candidate. [inaudible] The cold war, we are not high
level strategists. We just do what it is somebody needs whether it's signs put out or you need some toilet paper for the bathroom.LUTZ: Well, he needed labor support, didn't he?
POWELL: Yeah. Still has it. [inaudible] Dave Worley, I think, would have been
an excellent choice if the endorsed didn't make it against Newt Gingrich. We came within a hundred votes in beating him. Then they split these districts up and see where he is at. [inaudible] 00:44:00LUTZ: Do you think they will ever get him out?
POWELL: Yeah. I hope there is redistricting. Put him down in my district.
LUTZ: Wouldn't it be lovely. Um. Anyone right that down. No, by the time
anyone listens to this, he will be out of office.POWELL: I think he's a loose cannon. Really, in the labor movement, the real
Democratic -- associated with the Democratic Party. We probably make more Republicans than Republican parties are listed. You know, we got people from years ago that were brought up differently. You know, then, we started making good money. They guaranteed that in the contract. The union…they are not 00:45:00part of the bargain or process. All they know is that they get a big [inaudible] ride the bus to work or walk to work. Now they got only one car, got a two car garage and a bass boat in the front yard. [inaudible] Democrat is going to run this country, I think, 'till it goes down to rock bottom. Let the people to see what it is like to actually have to organize labor. Powerful, strong have always heard every government that's not a democratic government. The first thing they like to destroy is the labor movement. [inaudible] started the labor unions. I think things that you can see. The ones that set them free 00:46:00is the labor unions. Yeah [inaudible]. And basically, I have a lot of sympathy for the cotton workers and the farm workers. They eventually came through and organized. You know a lot of them still got it hard. At least they have a home base to operate from. People that really need, you know . . .LUTZ: We got off onto politics, you can get me off onto politics too. I had
asked you about memorable people. Zell Miller's campaign came up. Who else, looking back would you say that is someone I really remember marked.POWELL: Of course the Carters.
00:47:00LUTZ: Rosalind and Jimmy Carter?
POWELL: Mmhmm, and his momma, Lillian.
LUTZ: Did you know Lillian?
POWELL: Yeah. [inaudible]
LUTZ: Were you an early Carter supporter then?
POWELL: Well, he was Georgia-born. It didn't matter if you were for him or
against him as governor. When he was a candidate in Georgia, he was the favorite son, so everybody was with Jimmy back then, especially the CWA.LUTZ: Were you part of the of the penuckle?
POWELL: No, [inaudible] I didn't make that.
LUTZ: What was Lillian like?
00:48:00POWELL: Just a ball. She was here, I guess in her seventies then--real active
[inaudible] She commanded Auburn when visitors would come in. She had a long history in it herself. I'm just trying to think of someone. Like I say, Sam Caldwell. I guess Sam Caldwell and Zell Miller would be my two favorite.LUTZ: Tell me about Sam Caldwell, I don't know a lot about Sam Caldwell
except that of course that he was a Labor Commissioner.POWELL: Well, we had thought of him as being TQ. It used to be the labor
commissioner back in the sixties. I think then forever, Sherman was on crew at the same time. He never gave the working people any kind of break. Sam ran against him. I got a job with the UAW and all was being Sam's supporters. We got involved in his campaign. It was the only time since I have been in the 00:49:00labor movement -- seen every local, every working person, working. Sam beat Huiet and stayed in it for years, and was always great with labor.LUTZ: What kind of person was he?
POWELL: [inaudible] He was married to a -- his wife was Lebanese. I think his
wife died here this week or something. I think she died, on the very last I heard. They said that I should call him, he's in bad shape. [inaudible] He served and wrote his book. I went around with him to some of the meetings to sell his books. He's a nice man. He just took the heat for a lot of people 00:50:00he knew, freebies to which is an occupational hazard for being in politics. I love Sam. I like Ben; Ben kind of changed the last time as far as his personality.LUTZ: Ben Jones or Ben Huiet?
POWELL: Ben Jones.
LUTZ: [inaudible]
POWELL: Then this last time, I backed Joe Kennedy for lieutenant governor. I
liked him.LUTZ: Heard much bit about him. How about on the sort of rank and file level,
anyone stick out in your mind on a rank and file level just as a live wire?POWELL: J. T. Becker. I was his helper. I was fortunately working with people,
00:51:00I call it the old school. I was a trained master craftsman. I came during that period of time where a master craftsman -- even though I knew that you didn't use it any more because the technology was changing, like lightening jones or heart lee, all that stuff. They don't do that any more. They stick them together and bolt them up. They used to have to twist each of them, there's a wire, thousands of ties together. Now they come in modules or a lot of the craft work stuff. You start up and somebody test your line, now some machine does it all just like that.LUTZ: It's real annoying too.
POWELL: Yeah
00:52:00LUTZ: Do you know anybody at Southern Bell who has control over this? Tell
them the customers are really very aggravated at the whole thing.POWELL: The customer comes second. [inaudible] comes first.
LUTZ: Tell me about J. T.
POWELL: [inaudible] He was probably the best at his trade, good at it. That's
the real thing. He came back to work after the strike. You know, and he started doing independent telephone work, so he quit the company and led his own independent contracting job. He got branched off and doing power work and power [inaudible] in the Naval force. Two or three months ago he died. He was the last one of the period. The fifties strike. It's, um, the real leaders are 00:53:00still around.LUTZ: He was a leader?
POWELL: Well, he was an active member, but not a leader of it. Even the
president and all them, they are all gone. Joe Byrd, the national president, the local here and others.LUTZ: I bet [inaudible] still around isn't it?
POWELL: Yep. He's still around, but he's getting on up. He's a fairly
young fellow, but he's getting on up. I think I'm as old as he is. We seem like old men. I went to this atomic convention out in San Antonio last year. I thought, 'They're getting old folks out here.' I left and went up to Wichita. 00:54:00LUTZ: If you could look back and say "I'd live that again", what would
you choose?POWELL: Um, truthfully, I don't know of anything. I really enjoyed living and
still do. You know I was fortunate when I went in the service. I was fortunate in the first place that I wasn't [inaudible]. And, um, you know, I was fortunate that the people that brought me up, they were working people that didn't have any kids of their own, but, um, but I was able to live with a sportsmen [inaudible]. When I went into the service, I was fortunate that I had good duties, fortunate that I didn't get killed, not that I was that much exposed to it, but just from being seventeen. I was fortunate to been able to 00:55:00witness the atomic blast. I was fortunate that…I was fortunate to be in good enough health to be able to ride a bicycle, 1,400 miles. I was fortunate to be elected to be in office. It wasn't on my ability. You know, I mean, I am more a behind-the-scenes, you know, person. I don't like to be out front, you know.LUTZ: [inaudible]
POWELL: I am fortunate that I was able to retire with a nice pension, thank you
to labor movement. I'm sixty and retired. Had a good healthy retirement. [inaudible] I can't think of anything really that I would say -- I probably 00:56:00wouldn't have stolen a candy bar from the doc when I worked at the drugstore, if I had to do over again 'cause he's a nice fellow.LUTZ: I guess you wouldn't have taken one of those napkins and bottles from
the White House. [laughter]POWELL: But, I, you know, I have been real fortunate. I seem to be in the right
place at the right time when something happened. Vice-president of the AFL-CIO state… Everything I did -- it ain't quite on your ability.LUTZ: They must have thought that you were pretty hot because you are in the
Labor Hall of Fame.POWELL: I gave a roll of toilet paper to Ben Jones. [laughter]
00:57:00LUTZ: [inaudible]
POWELL: [inaudible]
LUTZ: Tell me about your job with the state AFL-CIO, your position.
POWELL: Just vice-president of the fifth district, which is basically the
Atlanta metro area. I represented the labor unions. It is a ceremonial type job because in the metro area, most big locals don't call the AFL-CIO for what they want anyway, they just go ahead and do it. In smaller areas when you get out like in the Valdosta area. They need a vice-president. You know, [inaudible] Even though I served on the board, I really didn't have any major 00:58:00functions. [inaudible] People told to call in some areas. Lobbyist and everything else.LUTZ: The one thing that it is, it might have given you a better picture than
most people have of what was going on with the state labor movement. How do you think it has changed in the states since you got involved in? I guess the second part of that question is: and where do you think it's going to go?POWELL: Well, the truth is that I don't think it has changed a whole lot.
LUTZ: [inaudible]
POWELL: The second part of the question is that something in not just the state,
the whole labor movement as a whole. We are dealing with different type of 00:59:00companies in the government. The national conglomerates now, you know, the mergers, the automation, the technology, and the…and the trades the way they operated for years and years. Even the structure is going to have to be overhauled and streamlined. I think the labor force has, come 1990s and the turn of the century, is not going to be recognized but through a labor force like in, you know, the thirties, forties, fifties, sixties up. And they got a tough job. I think, um, whatever it takes and I don't have an answer to it, but whatever it takes to get into it. High tech…industry…and I don't know 01:00:00what function it would play in organizing these people. I guess the service industry is going to be the bottom line I think on the labor movement. You know, and I…I would hate to know that I had to be driving it, steer or lead or guide somebody into this. I got elected at a good time and got out of it at a good time. The split up of AT&T and Bell SysteThat's with all these treaties going on. The labor is in one country and the product is in another country, and the sales is in another country. You know, that's…that was kind of scary from 01:01:00the labor side.LUTZ: Let me…um, let me just take you back to the late sixties for a second.
In the late sixties what sorts of [inaudible] was civil rights movement? The civil rights movement has already pretty much achieved its goals. The women's movement breaks out, anti-Vietnam protests – And who…tons of other stuff. How did you react to that as a labor guide? Or personally?POWELL: Personally, I'm from the old school, I serve my country. I didn't
lead anybody. You know, I organized opposition. [inaudible] I wasn't necessarily opposed to the war. We had thousands over there getting killed and 01:02:00these people not paying any penalty. I guess that is part of the democracy. I didn't support that part. I was not…I was not for the hippie movement, so to speak. When they come to work with their sandals and the long hair.LUTZ: Never had a braid down your back?
POWELL: No. Now a tattoo and a cigar was all right. [laughter] I wasn't in
that free spirit movement. It was kind of strange in the unions, too. If the company tried to discipline them, you know, for their hair being to long, earrings, sandals, tank tops, these types of things. If the company 01:03:00disciplined, they would come to the union. Of course, under the law we had to file a grievance for them, you know, whether we agreed with them or not. The law said that we had to file a grievance. We would catch it both sides. The government would say -- the members would say -- Then it would turn into a war. What was the other part of the question?LUTZ: I was asking about women and black people on the work force was
integrated and men and women a lot . . .POWELL: This thing kind of evolved before they really started the affirmative
action. All they had was what they called a NAB program. It was the national lives of business men, the companies. To keep us from passing laws, they would hire people of--basically it was people of handicapped. But then, they hired 01:04:00certain amount of colored, but, um, with no chance to ever move. And then they would never answer on what their retention rate was. They would say, 'Well, we hired 1,500, you know, NAB.' They might…you would just be so far… you would take somebody out of gas or oil, hard core, and put them out here with this highly technical stuff. You know, it's just frustration to them, and they would leave. And, so, um, if the company turned over, they would hold it up over this NAB – we hired x number and it was like a handicapped running a Xerox machine or a mail route. [inaudible] And then, they started hiring them and training them, but then there was a lot of resentment as far as being from the 01:05:00South. There was a lot of resentment -- they would get special treatment. And a lot…none of the workers would tolerate them, but they wouldn't show them nothing. They didn't really want to help. It slowly evolved, but it worked out. But it was…it was a peaceful adjustment, but a lot of…lot of people feel like you should have a job because you are a woman. I mean, an outside job, like be an operator. They wanted a hard, not a top paying job, for a woman or if it was a black. And, um, it wasn't minority, it was just black that 01:06:00would be real hard. A lot of people just, you know, put up with it, you know. It kind of compounded their stereotype you had that the blacks are just not as smart or something, you know. And when they come out, nobody show them anything. The others always said that they were dumb. You know what I mean? It has worked out good. [inaudible]LUTZ: Um, CWA membership changed its composition like that too?
POWELL: Oh yeah. I was at the first Equity Committee. If there were any
complaints of discrimination and stuff, they could bring it in their own group within the union. They had blacks and whites on it. They had some of the first black Stewards and so forth. I think probably the CWA was the forefront, other 01:07:00than the predominately black unions, like the labor as far as the service unions and all.LUTZ: CWA has got the reputation of being a liberal union.
POWELL: Yeah. We had the first Equity Committee, women's movement, community
service committees. We had a lot of committees, but they function. They kind of intermingle with each other, but they function. That period of time, it never had been before especially in the South. A lot of these laws are passed and the companies were trying to ease into them without revolting the troops. The same way with the union, it's kinda hard to adjust to it, you know. We 01:08:00later made a smooth transaction to it in the CWA. [break]LUTZ: If you could…if you could, let's just pretend you could stand in
front of an auditorium full of young union members and tell them anything you wanted to them. What would you tell them?POWELL: Get with God and join the Georgia Democratic party. [laughter]
[inaudible] We had a… this is when the Special Olympics was first getting started. The Eternities had just bought Channel 17 across the street. They were only on TV for maybe six or eight hours, I forget now, it wasn't on long. We walked off West Peachtree with a telefile for the Special Olympics. Tommy Nobis used to be a linebacker with the Falcons and all [inaudible]. But, um, 01:09:00Kris Kristofferson and Rita Cooledge they came to the local, you know. They got all football players and all that in the local. They just walked down the steps out on the stage and TV 17 was across the street. That went good -- I think we made eight thousand dollars for [inaudible]. That was good money for then. We were really instrumental with Tom Nobis and all when the Special Olympics started. He still does it. You know, we had big telethon from the um, Six Flags. We decided to go to a golf tournament. We had gone through [inaudible] and it got big. Now it's the [inaudible] was the original doctor in the 01:10:00special olympics.LUTZ: It's, um…you are a big golfer?
POWELL: I swing a lot. Anytime you are above ground, you get out there and
swing. Really our local, they take good care of me. A lot of times I get free golf trips, you know, and stuff like that. [inaudible] They take good care of me. Lot of time, I get free golf trips. But you, know, something they are going to participate in and all that.LUTZ: Mmhmm. I do have one more question. What one thing have you done that
you would say, "that's my legacy?" I mean, you have done so many of these things. What is the one that you really…are the most proud of if you could single out one? 01:11:00POWELL: Really I am not through yet. Building a Legion here, I formed an
American Legion. [inaudible] I hope to build a big ball field and recreation area over here for kids. There's nothing down here where we are for kids. [inaudible] I…I don't really have a legacy. I was like I say, a lot of -- I inherited a lot of what I got, a lot of people did the real work, like Joe Jacbos. He's an organizer down here. And, um, they built it. I never had to build an organization. I inherited one in and built on it. You know.LUTZ: Joe Jacobs would say the same thing about you, though. [laughter]
POWELL: Well, it's, you know, like I said earlier, it's nothing that I
01:12:00really did. I inherited the organization. I was in a good mood, I happen to come along at the time in the fifties when it was a lot of changes, made it through them. The real heroes in life is not me. You need to go back and get the Joe Jacobs from the old school. Let them tell you about how it got started. Ain't nobody want to beat my head except my wife at times. You had to hide. It was a dirty name to be associated with labor. And, um, um, they started with. . . .[inaudible] the real challenge is that people have got to take it now, you know and go. [inaudible]