KELLY LIMES-TAYLOR HENDERSON: Go ahead and get started and so, um, if we can
just start off by your telling me, um, who you are and, and where you are right now.TERRELL ROBERTSON: You mean address-wise?
HENDERSON: Well, not, not your address, but just, like, the city and state.
ROBERTSON: Oh, ok. All right, uh, this is Terrell Robertson --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: Uh, I live in Akron, Ohio
HENDERSON: Mm hm, mm hm. And if -- and I think that the question that I want to,
um, start off with you because different -- like diff -- you know, my mom has mentioned you in her interview before and Uncle T.J. mentioned you in in his interview --ROBERTSON: Uh-huh.
HENDERSON: And I just wanted to start off with you like, what is your, if we
could start off with, like, one of your first memories of being in Harlem. Like, what's, what's one of the first memories that you have just from childhood? 00:01:00ROBERTSON: My first memories of my childhood. Hm, that probably does back pretty far.
HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: Because (laughs) it does. I can remember quite you know far, I can
probably remember back, um, vivid memories at, uh, age three.HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: However, I do remember I have, uh, uh, a memory of my father's
mother, uh, my grandmother, paternal grandmother --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- and I had to have only been about two years old.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And it was a memory that I remember of her when she was sick and I
saw her --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- twice. And, um, you know, I told my mother about the memory and
she said "Yes, that's right." Because she confirmed it. So, I would have only been about two years old so, I have that memory.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: But as far as childhood and things that I know, um, remember growing
00:02:00up. I think about three or four years oldHENDERSON: Uh-huh. That's really far
ROBERTSON: I know (laughs).
HENDERSON: I mean just -- but not really far, sorry, but really young. Like, I
don't think I remember anything from that age.ROBERTSON: It's very young, but I, I definitely remember.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh. Mm hm. Now, when you, like, when, um, you were talking about
-- was it Mamus that was sick?ROBERTSON: Yes. It was, uh-huh.
HENDERSON: Yeah, uh-huh. And did Nana give you any more details about that or
was just she was --ROBERTSON: Ab --
HENDERSON: -- sick and --
ROBERTSON: About that particular memory?
HENDERSON: Yes, yes.
ROBERTSON: Well, I believe that she died, uh, let's see. My brother T.J. was
born in nineteen forty-eight, and when, when my parents went down for her funeral, uh, we were left, we were left home.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: The older siblings were able to stay in that, in the house by theirself
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
00:03:00ROBERTSON: And, uh, Perry and I stayed with her sister, um, my aunt Genevieve --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- and her husband Gill.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: Um, because the older kids were in school, and that, and that was
down to RonaldHENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: She took T.J. with her, he was a baby so, I think she even died, when
T.J. was born in nineteen -- in May of nineteen forty-eight. I believe she might've died in um, forty-eight or forty-nine. I have it written down, but I don't remember the exact date.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: I, I have it written down, but in my head, I'm thinking now -- I was
born in nineteen forty seven, so I had to have been, you know, really, a toddler --HENDERSON: Right, right
ROBERTSON: -- when they went, but I do remember going down South with them
before she died, and I remember the memory of being, uh, held up to kiss her when she was laying in the bed, and she was sick.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And I also have another memory of her talking to me, and it must've
00:04:00been at that same time.HENDERSON: Uh-huh
ROBERTSON: Hm.
HENDERSON: Mm hm, mm hm. That's interesting. That's interesting and that's
really special --ROBERTSON: So when my --
HENDERSON: -- that you can remember that.
ROBERTSON: Right. So when my mother confirmed it, she said "Yes, that is right,"
and she particularly confirmed the one where, when I was lifted up to give her a kiss --HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: -- uh, as she laid in the bed, sick.
HENDERSON: Right, right. Did y -- did, um, did anyone ever tell you later what
she was sick from?ROBERTSON: No. Um, uh, let me think. No, I don't remember anyone saying to me
what she died from.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: You know
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: I know -- I don't believe she was very old.
HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: You know, not, not in, not in terms of, of today's age.
HENDERSON: Right, right.
ROBERTSON: You know, at that time she would've been, I suppose, what you would
call an older, older person 00:05:00HENDERSON: Right, right. Hm. Now what about your memories of when you were about
three or four?ROBERTSON: Well, let's see. I can remember specifically my mother drank tea.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: (laughs) I can remember specifically, I was probably about four years
old. She was in the bed, uh, and she was, uh, not feeling well.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And my older sister Sadie was making her a cup of tea. Actually, it
was more like a bowl, mother drank tea out a bowl.HENDERSON: Uh, what?
ROBERTSON: And, Uh-huh. (laughs)
HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: And, uh, she was bringing it to her, I was jumping on the bed, and
Sadie said to me "You need to stop."HENDERSON: (slight laughter)
ROBERTSON: "It's hot." Well, I didn't stop. I did get a little burned on my arm.
HENDERSON: Aww. (laughs)
ROBERTSON: It was terrible.
HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: But, uh, the tea did splash on my arm. So, I remember that.
HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: Really well. (laughs) I remember that. Also, I remember, and I have
00:06:00since asked my older sister what happened to T.J's leg, you know.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: You know, because I, I was young, um, and he must have been -- maybe
he was like eighteen months.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: You know? And, uh, so you know I'm not that much older than him. So,
I remember that he had to go to the hospital.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And I remember when he came home he had to have, um, his ankles
wrapped. They had to change the bandages and things like that. And I had asked uh, it was -- as a matter fact, not too long ago, several years ago -- I didn't remember exactly why that had happened, but I remember his having his ankles wrapped and things like that. Uh, and I was there, I remember the smell of it, the pungent smell of the, uh, sore --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- things like that. And I did ask Sadie or Verna, what had happened
00:07:00to him? Why did he have to have that done?HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And, uh, (laughs) Verna told me that she dropped the, uh, (laughs) we
had a folding bed, a folding cot --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- and it fell on him. (laughs) So, that's, you know when she was
pulling it down I think it fell on his, on his legHENDERSON: (emphasis) Oh.
ROBERTSON: That's another memory
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: Um, I have, uh, memories of, of just -- of living in our apartment in
New York.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And uh you know, um, Rocky --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- was more like a, a father to us younger ones --
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: -- because, um, he was given so much authority over us, and I, I
suppose that it was because that, uh, he was the oldest.HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: You know, he and Sadie and, you know -- and we had to listen to him
just like we did our father and our mother.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: When he said something -- and when I said, "to us," I'm mostly
00:08:00talking about Ronald to a certain degree, but mostly Perry, T.J., and I --HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: -- okay?
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: Uh, because, uh, Ronnie and Sonia were not, uh, you know, there yet.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: But, um, to us. And I remember him, uh, chastising us, and (laughs)
he was kind of, he was really kind of of rough, you know --HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: -- in a way. And, uh, he, but he -- you know, I mean, he loved us and
everything --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- but I, I, I totally remember the actions, the interactions in our
home. I remember the Christmases. I remember the angel hair on the tree and how it itched us.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: I remember exactly what we got in our Christmas stockings: uh, apple,
an orange, a banana, and candy, a, a few pieces of candy and the nuts that came from my grandmother down South.HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: I remember the food that we ate at New Year's, what we ate at
00:09:00Christmas. Um, and I remember just about everything in our apartment.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: Uh, Verna, Sadie, and I shared a bed --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- shared a bed when, when I was young
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And, um, I just was, I remember all of that. I remember always being
with, especially Perry and T.J. --HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: -- when I was very young --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- and I remember Sadie taking care of me most of the time.
HENDERSON: Mm hm. Just far as, was there a time of Aunt Sadie taking care of
you, like, beginning and ending or is that just you -- that was your entire --ROBERTSON: No.
HENDERSON: -- childhood?
ROBERTSON: That was my childhood until she got married and, and I was seven
years old.HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: She was like my mother
HENDERSON: Mm hm, mm hm, mm hm.
ROBERTSON: She was like my mother.
00:10:00HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: She dressed me -- my mother combed my hair --
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: Uh, she dressed me, she took care of me, she, uh, you know, y -- you
know, shaped, and I, I think she did that. Um, I do know that my mother did that also --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- but, um, yes. She, she was kind of like my mother.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: She did so much for me.
HENDERSON: Mm hm, mm hm, mm hm. Now when you were saying that you remember the
apartment, could you walk me through?ROBERTSON: Yes.
HENDERSON: Kind of, like who, who slept where or who was in kind of what room
for --ROBERTSON: Sure.
HENDERSON: -- a time?
ROBERTSON: Yes. When you came into our apartment, we lived on the sixth floor.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And it was an apartment in the back of the building. So, you did not
look out onto the front street, you looked out onto a courtyard --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
00:11:00ROBERTSON: -- and we were on the top floor in that building.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And when you came into our apartment, there was just a tiny little
vestibule and the kitchen was on the left-hand side --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- and the bathroom was off the kitchen.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: If you went straight ahead, you walked into the living room, and
further there was a door that goes into the big bedroom.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And to the left of that bedroom was a smaller bedroom.
HENDERSON: Oh.
ROBERTSON: That small bedroom belonged to Sadie and Verna, and I --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- slept in that bed.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And the big bedroom, um, let me see -- in the big bedroom -- Rocky
did not sleep there. He, he, from the time that I can remember, he slept at my aunt's house --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- until he got married.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: My father's sister, her name was Sadie.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: Older sister.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: He slept there. Ferdie slept at home, and Ronald slept at home, and
00:12:00Perry and T.J.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: That was, they slept in that room
HENDERSON: Mm hm, mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And there were bunk beds there. Now, I don't -- I can't tell you when
the bunk beds came. I don't really remember that. Um, my mother and father slept in the living room --HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: -- in a pullout couch
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And when Sonia had -- when Ronnie and Sonia were born, they slept in
that living room with them until, until a time later.HENDERSON: Right. So the arrangement that you described there, about how many
years was it like that? Because I know that there were shifting, you know because there --ROBERTSON: Yes.
HENDERSON: -- you know, kids moving out and then being --
ROBERTSON: Right.
HENDERSON: -- born.
ROBERTSON: Well, when Ronnie was born, Ferdie was not there. He was in Korea --
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: -- and Sadie was already married --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- and Verna and I shared the, the bedroom --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
00:13:00ROBERTSON: -- and, uh, Ronald and Perry and T.J. still had the big bedroom.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: And, uh, Ronnie -- she'd sleep with my mom and dad -- still slept in
the living room for a little bit.HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: Okay?
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: When, when Verna got married, I was eleven years old.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: Okay? That was the time that, um, Ferdie was back home.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: And, um, let me think, now. I think they still shared that room.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: Uh, Ferdie, Ronald, Terry, and T.J. and I know we had bunk beds then.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: Okay? It was a big bedroom. And, um, then, then my, um, my mom and
dad still slept there, but then I moved into the -- I was in the smaller bedroom. And for a while there T.J. used to sleep in there sometimes with me --HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: Okay? So I think Sonia and Ronnie were still sleeping in the living
00:14:00room --HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: -- with my parents.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: Um, let me think now. Um, let's see. We go through, so we got over,
um. I'm trying to think when my mom and dad moved into the small bedroom --HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: -- they had the small bedroom. And, I slept in the big bedroom with,
um, uh Ferdie slept in the living room.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: R -- uh, and Perry and T.J. slept on the top bunk, and I slept on the
bottom bunk with Veronica and Sonia.HENDERSON: Mm hm, mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And my parents, they took the small bedroom.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: And I'm trying to think what age I was at, at that time. Um, I was
00:15:00probably in junior high school.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: I'm pretty sure. And, um, let's see here. It was not too long after
Verna got married --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- because I went to junior high school, I think, when I was eleven.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: Okay? So it was just like, not too long after that.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh, mm hm. And so, when you said you were um, eleven, when Aunt
Vernie got married, how did --ROBERTSON: Yes.
HENDERSON: -- what was it then like being the oldest girl in the house?
ROBERTSON: Well, as the oldest girl in the house I had to take on some, quite a
bit of everything.HENDERSON: Mm hm. (slight laugh)
ROBERTSON: And that was taking care of my younger sisters.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: I took care of them.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: I made sure that they bathed. I made sure that they got up in the
morning, got dressed for school. I made sure that they, um, had breakfast. I 00:16:00took them to school, walked them to school --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And, um, I ironed their clothes -- you know, mother did too, but I
did a lot of that --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- I took them down to play, and I really took care of them.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: You know, so I -- that was that was a role that I had to take on.
HENDERSON: Mm hm, mm hm. And this was -- so this was from age eleven to how old?
ROBERTSON: Uh, 'til the time that I left.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And I got married, I was nineteen.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: But from that time all the way to that time, yes.
HENDERSON: And, and you took care of them. Now, what, was there a discussion
that things were going to shift that way or was it just, you just were called on to start doing it?ROBERTSON: I, I'm sorry, I didn't hear the question.
00:17:00HENDERSON: Oh, I'm sorry. I said, was there a discussion that things were going
to change and you would have these new responsibilities? Or were you just kind of called on to start doing or did you know that's was going to be your job?ROBERTSON: I think, I think you just know.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: I mean, these were my little sisters --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- and I was extremely protective of them, extremely protective.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And I think -- I, I don't think anybody said, why you know Mother
didn't say "do this, do this, do this."HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: But I don't think it was like, "Now this is your job to do this." It
wasn't like that, you just know.HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: You just knew.
HENDERSON: Mm.
ROBERTSON: In a family like that you just know, wh -- I, I think that us girls knew.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: You know because when Sadie left -- when, when she got married and
when, and when Ronnie and Sonia were born, until the time that Verna left, she took care of those girls --HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: -- she took care of those babies --
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: -- you know?
HENDERSON: Mm hm, mm hm.
00:18:00ROBERTSON: And when she left, it just kind of passed down to me.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: So, I think in our family, we older girls, we just knew --
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: -- we just, we just knew.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And it was not, it was not like it was a chore or anything like that.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: It was, it was just done out of love and I, I do know, you don -- you
didn't think about it. As I said --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- those babies were born, and Verna took care of them.
HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: And, and when she left then it was my turn.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: You know? And of course they were a little older --
HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: -- but not very old
HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: -- you know? So (slightly laughs) --
HENDERSON: Right
M: -- it, um, you know, just fell off onto me.
HENDERSON: Mm hm, mm hm. And so, how was it kind of with my mom and with Aunt
Sonia -- and it's funny because, of course, I've only known them as adults -- and you know? But how was it getting them ready in the morning? Like, how did 00:19:00you manage? Was it easy to get them -- you know, were they easy kids to deal with in the morning or -- ?ROBERTSON: They were fine, Kelly, because you know,
they were really wonderful, and I think they loved me (slightly laughing) as much as I loved them.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: I think they would've done anything that I asked them to. Like, yeah,
there was a time I remember, um, (laughs) trying to get a lit -- little feisty -- I remember once, I think it was Sonia I had to spank with my slipper. (laughs)HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: But, um, for the most part, um, I, I never really had any problems --
except your mom one time. Let's see we had to, uh, we used to, our school used to, take, take the buses -- every public school in New York City, every Catholic school, every Jewish school, we all well went to Guggenheim Dental ClinicHENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: You know, even the private schools went. And our day was Friday --
00:20:00well, the elementary school -- once you get out of elementary school, you didn't go anymore. And I was in junior high school, and it was time for your mom to go. And I think she was in first grade.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: She didn't want to go and then that morning, I said "Come on you
gotta get there," because you, you needed to be there early --HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: -- you have to go to the specific room and wait for the teacher and
line up to get on the bus. She was pitching a fit, she was -- she didn't want to go. She was going to make me late for school. I had to walk her all the way back home --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- and that's when (laughs) Mama got up. I think she got a little
spanking that day.HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: And then I had to take her back to school --
HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: -- and make sure she got into that classroom to go to the dentist. I
couldn't say that I blamed her. I did not like going either but --HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: Um, that was, that was a time that I remember I had so little to do
with her, because, uh, she was making me late for school --HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: -- and that was something. I did (emphasis) not want to be late for
00:21:00school --HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: -- ever. And I -- then the thing with Sonia -- but, for the most
part, I don't think I ever had any problems. Um, it was pretty much organized. And I think I've always been kind of an organized person -- lay out their stuff, everything was ready.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And, uh, they liked to eat, um, hard-boiled eggs in the morning for
breakfast --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And you know, so it was always um, it was okay.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: It was okay.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: I didn't see it as a lot of extra work.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh, mm hm. And so what -- and so you had -- so you took care of
Mom and Aunt Sonia and they were much younger and so --ROBERTSON: Mm hm.
HENDERSON: -- what was your, what would you say your life was like being
sandwiched between (emphasis) boys? Because the other girl, girls, had girls very close to them in --ROBERTSON: Yeah, yeah.
00:22:00HENDERSON: -- in age. And so what, what would you say it was like being a girl
among boys, really?ROBERTSON: Well, it was different --
HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: -- I'll tell ya that.
HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: And, and a lot of times, um, I suppose I felt kind of left out.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: You know?
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: I did because, um, I had these two little cute sisters, you know --
everybody loved them.HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: You know? And, uh, they were so cute and so special.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And then I had two older sisters who were gone.
HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: And, um, at that time, uh, say, like, at that age, I didn't have a
close relationship with each one -- you know, what I think of -- like I have with my daughters the kind of relationship with my mother --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- she was real hard on me. She was, she was, she was very hard on me.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: You know?
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And, and having my two brothers -- um, it wasn't bad having my
00:23:00brothers, but I would have liked to have had my sisters there.HENDERSON: Right, right.
ROBERTSON: (laughter)
HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: You know? But I didn't have that, I didn't have sisters close by. So,
um, my two brothers, those two were my best friends --HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: -- growing up.
HENDERSON: Mm hm, mm hm, mm hm. And so would you, were you like -- well, let me
say that Aunt Sonia and my mom and Aunt Vernie and Aunt Sadie have, have all mentioned, I think, at some level, how girls couldn't do the same things as boys could, as far as playing --ROBERTSON: Mm hm.
HENDERSON: -- you know, kind on the streets. But since you were closest in age
and probably in relationship to your brothers, when it was time to go outside and play, were you able to play with them and do the things that they did? 00:24:00ROBERTSON: Well, I didn't play with them, we didn't -- but not when they were
with their friends and playing handball and stuff like that, no.HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: I only played with them when we were by ourselves --
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: -- in the home.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: No, girls could not do the things that the boys did.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And, I don't think my dad ever would have wanted us to do the things
that his sons did.HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: Um, it just was not at that time, it was not something that you did.
I mean, when I went to school, girls couldn't even wear pants to school.HENDERSON: Oh, okay, uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: You, you couldn't wear pants.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: You know? There was so many things that we couldn't do and that was
not allowed for us to do.HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: And it was not only society, it was in our family as well.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: You just weren't -- It wasn't -- it was expected that you didn't
those things.HENDERSON: Mm hm, mm hm.
ROBERTSON: So, no, I didn't play with them. Oh, I used to race down the street
with Perry and T.J., you know, we used to run and race and stuff. But that was 00:25:00with them, it wasn't with other boys around --HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: -- and things like that
HENDERSON: Right, right, right. Now when you were saying that it wasn't just
society but it was the family as well --ROBERTSON: Uh-huh.
HENDERSON: -- what are, what are some ways those expectations were made clear in
your (emphasis) family about what girls did versus what boys did?ROBERTSON: Well, you know my dad was, um, he, like (laughs), he used to say
things like, "Care," he used to say. Uh, he didn't like to see women out in the street with -- we used to wear hoops and really big crinolines under our skirts and stuff.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: He didn't like to see older girls like that.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: Now, you know when you think about it, you think when you're a, a
young woman or a woman wearing straight skirts.HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: He used to always say, "You should wear straight skirts when you're
younger, because then they don't flare up"HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: You know?
HENDERSON: Oh, uh-huh.
00:26:00ROBERTSON: And, yeah, so you shouldn't, you shouldn't have those types of
things. He would, um, no one can ever be walking down the street smoking a cigarette.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: Never liked to see that. And I said one time, I remember, "Maybe I'll
go in the service?" "No, you will never go in the military. Not unless you have a college degree and go as a, as an officer."HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: Okay.
HENDERSON: Mm hm, mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And this the things that he expected of how his girls were to act.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: You are, you are -- and it's one of the reasons today that I only
chew, if I chew gum, a half a stick of gum --HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: -- because, "Don't ever let me see you chewing like a cow on the subway."
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: You know. "You are not to chew like that, you are to be more discreet
and, and, you know, be like a lady."HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: He would say. I remember one time he was sleeping during the day, and
00:27:00I was typing in the other bedroom --HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: And he (slightly laughs), he thought I was popping gum. Oh, he --
HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: -- got there so fast it was -- (laughs)
HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: I go, "Dad I'm just typing," you know.
HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: I couldn't have popped up that fast but --
HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: Those were his expectations (laughs) of the women in his family.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: He never wanted to see my mother with a run in her stocking or
anything like that. He didn't want to see his daughters like that, either.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: You know? I remember him saying to me, he said -- um, I don't know
how old I was, I remember when I was very little. We wore the dungarees -- they call them jeans these days --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- my, my dungarees had, like, what you would call now a -- um, with
the straps you know?HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And T.J.'s dungarees were just, um, just pull up, you know, with just
the elastic around the waist.HENDERSON: Uh-huh, uh-huh
ROBERTSON: That's the way the boys' were made and girls' had a bib on it
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
00:28:00ROBERTSON: And, um, I remember he came home one and he said -- that I must've
been about, maybe five or six -- and he said, "Oh goodness" -- he came home from work, he said, "When I saw you I thought 'Yeah, my daughter's really a New Yorker now,'" because I had on pants.HENDERSON: (emphasis) Oh, uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: And when he used to come home, I guess I always had on dresses
playing downstairs, I don't know.HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: (laughter)
HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: So, that was, that was the expectation. Rocky always used to say,
when I was a little girl, you know how girls play on the couch and they keep their legs up and stuff --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- "Stop cocking up! Stop cocking up!"
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: No girl's supposed to be doing that, and I, I supposed he got that
from my father, I don't know.HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: Those were just some of the expectations --
HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: -- of how you were supposed to act.
HENDERSON: And where do you think, well just kind of in your opinion I guess,
where do you think those expectations came from? I mean, like, from your 00:29:00(emphasis) father --ROBERTSON: I think --
HENDERSON: -- where do you think they came from, for him?
ROBERTSON: Well, I, I, I suppose that my dad had, uh, an idea in his mind of
what a,a lady would be like --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- and it was my mother, and, you know, when she, she conducted
herself, uh, always in a ladylike manner --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- and that's what he wanted and that's what he, um, would want for
his daughters.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: So his expectations passed down. He had those expectations of how he
wanted his boys to behave in the streets and -- or, you know -- and how we were to behave --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- and, and so did my mother.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And thing is, is that, um, if we, we were never, we never wanted to
do anything to embarrass our parents.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: We just didn't want to --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- you know?
00:30:00HENDERSON: Mm hm, mm hm.
ROBERTSON: Never wanted to do that.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: Always, we always wanted to make our parents proud of us.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: Where that came from, I don't know. Maybe I got it from older or
maybe younger, but I think it was the expectation and that's what we did.HENDERSON: The expectation, you mean, to always make sure that your parents were
proud of you and not wanting to disappoint?ROBERTSON: That's right.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: Right. To behave in that in a proper manner.
HENDERSON: Mm hm, mm hm. And would say that there was that same expectation from
other people that you knew your age, like in school? Did -- was that just kind of important to everyone, you think?ROBERTSON: Well, I think it, um, probably was -- a, uh, group of people that I
was with, kids like, uh, went through the same grade, every grade, you know, with the same group of people, you know, it wasn't too many changes --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- and yes, the people that I was with, I think I was basically able
00:31:00to meet --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- "You will get your education, you will do well in school,"
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: "But you will behave properly."
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And, um, some, some people that I know that lived on our block, they
didn't have the same expectations --HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: -- but we were not allowed to go in those two buildings where my
parents thought the expectations were not what -- up to their level --HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: Up to their standards. It was not that they were snobbish or anything
like that -- we were always friendly and everything -- but, uh, we had four, four buildings on our block, and we were allowed to go in our building --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- and then the building that my aunt lived in.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: And the other two buildings, I had a friend that lived in one of the
buildings, and I used to have to ask my mother if I could go to her house, and she would let me go up there.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: But as a rule, we were not allowed to
HENDERSON: Right, right, right. And so your friend was the only reason why you
00:32:00would go into that building.ROBERTSON: That's right.
HENDERSON: Mm hm, mm hm. Now what, um, because somebody else, and I don't
remember who it was, but mentioned this same kind of difference between the buildings.ROBERTSON: Right.
HENDERSON: And to me that was just interesting because I was thinking, what are
the odds? You know, like, where you have two buildings of people who seem respectable or whatever the, you know, the thought is and --ROBERTSON: Mm hm.
HENDERSON: -- then two buildings where it sounds like just like a bunch of wild
children live. And how does that, how does that work? How do people, you know get --ROBERTSON: Well, you know, uh, I knew -- I this is -- I think that the two
buildings we were allowed to be in, everybody went to work every day and came home.HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: And in the other buildings they had people sitting out on the stoop a
00:33:00long time. Now, there were a couple of families in some of those buildings -- like one family, the Garveys had a large family --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- and, uh, we were friends with them, and we played with them
outside and did things like that --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- but we didn't go into their house, expect for, uh, when Ronald got
over -- older.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: One of his friends, Judy, was a, was a Garvey. Now these, these they
had, um, boys I think would do anything for us -- it's not that -- and, and the -- their parents were nice and I, I think that their father went to work every day --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- and, it's just that -- I remember, I remember, uh, I think that I
was working for the city of New York at the time --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- and one of the girls, Sheila, she was between me and T.J.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And I remember her introducing me to somebody once, and she said,
"Yeah, this is the Limes. Um, they, uh, you know, they all have good jobs, like they work for the city and, you know, they all have good jobs." So, I think that 00:34:00that they for some reason also looked at us differently.HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: You know.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: Um, my dad drank, my dad drank. He was an alcoholic.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: But he was never down on the stoop or anything like that.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: He went to work every day --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- you know?
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And came home. So, um, we I think we were looked at differently. It
was a large family, ten kids --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- and everybody worked, everybody had responsibility, everybody went
to school, you know, and still kind of stayed togeth -- And other, the other two buildings, I think they were families that just didn't.HENDERSON: Uh-huh. That's interesting. What do you think, in your -- that's just
very interesting wher -- where there is a fa -- such a large family and everyone 00:35:00in that family is considered, like, productive and, you know, just a member of society -- a contributing member of society. What do you think, why do you think that is, tha -- that all of you went on to stay in school and work and where that may not have been the norm for every family?ROBERTSON: Um, I think it was the expectations of my parents.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: It, it wasn't, I'm sure it wasn't easy to be living in New York City --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- you know especially them coming from a small town, Georgetown.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: But it was their expectation; it became our expectation.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: I'm not saying that we never did anything that we weren't supposed to
do, we all did --HENDERSON: Right
ROBERTSON: -- but the fact is that, um, their expectations became our expectations.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: Um, we had a lot of pride in ourself because, as I said again, we
would never have done anything to embarrass our parents. Our parents were good 00:36:00parents --HENDERSON: Mm.
ROBERTSON: -- and they did the best that they could, and, uh, they expected this
from us, they didn't have to tell us every day over and over again, uh, "This is what you, you need to do."HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: It was expected and that's what they got.
HENDERSON: Right, right. Now you had mentioned, you'd mentioned your father
having a very clear expectation of the boys in the family. Could you talk a, a little bit about what you knew his expectations to be?ROBERTSON: Well, I they were totally different, I'm sure, from the girls,
because it was I'm sure it was looser, you know.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: Um, my dad would always say -- um, he would be he -- and when they,
when they reached 21, I think that was the legal age for alcohol --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- he would, he would sit down with their first drink with them. Now,
00:37:00we all know that they had drinks before that --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- but not in front of my dad --
HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: -- you know.
HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: And, so, um, as far as, um -- I think his thing was uh, he, he, he
probably gave them some, some ideas about what he expected from them: no drugs, no jail, uh, no drink -- uh, drinking, slumming on the street, hanging out, things like that.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: Um, and, uh, maybe, (emphasis) maybe -- I don't know for sure -- but
maybe it was, uh, a "Do as I say, but not as I do."HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: As far as drinking, not as I do. I mean, he was (emphasis) never out
on the street.HENDERSON: Uh-huh, mm hm.
ROBERTSON: You know. He was a mason. He looked so sharp, but, I guess was,
00:38:00always a sharp person, you know.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: He liked to look neat --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: Never looked disheveled or anything like that. He could iron his
shirt -- well, of course, he was a presser at one time.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: He can iron his shirt just as good as mother.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- you know?
HENDERSON: Mm hm, mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And, um, so I, I, I think that, that was, was basically more or less
the expectation.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: No drugs, no, no, no drinking, no hanging out on the street, you
know, those kinds of things.HENDERSON: Mm hm, mm hm. Hm. Now, what -- so, so those were the expectations for
the boy, would you say that whether you're a boy or a girl in the family, that there were specific expectations as far as school was concerned?ROBERTSON: No, I don't think so. I think school was the same for --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- everybody, at least that those are my thoughts.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
00:39:00ROBERTSON: You, uh, you were to, um, you know -- education was extremely,
extremely important --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- and it was the expectation that you would go to school --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- and do your work.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: However, now I had a brother Perry (laughs) --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- who hated homework.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: I believe that he was bored to death in school because he is
extremely bright --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- and, uh, he, he didn't do homework. He would make fun of me.
HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: "Go home and do your homework!" I was going to get my homework done
because I -- that was something I had to do. I would just -- you know, I was very that kind of person. I, I had to, I had to do my homework. (laughs)HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: You know, this was really important to me. I had to go to school, I
had be a good student, I had to do my homework.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: You know, those kinds of things.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: It's not that it wasn't -- I don't think -- important to him. It's
just that I, I truly think as we got older he was just extremely bored, it was 00:40:00not challenging enough.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: So he didn't do homework --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- you know?
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: He didn't do his homework, but he did go to school.
HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: But, um, you know to the point of when the teachers said, uh, he, uh,
"Mrs. Limes, he, he's cheating on this test." She said, "He's not cheating."HENDERSON: (emphasis) Oh.
ROBERTSON: And my mother was a, a strong defender of us in --
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: -- in that.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: She was a strong defender. And, then she said, "You think he's
cheating? Leave him a room by himself and give him the test that nobody else has." Of course, he aced it.HENDERSON: Right, right.
ROBERTSON: You know. But they couldn't tell before, they thought, "Oh, he had to
be cheating, he never turns in homework or anything like that," and, you know, he didn't answer maybe some of the questions in class. But I need to tell you that we were very shy kids, extremely shy, when we were younger.HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: It's when we got older that we found our voice. But when you live in
a house with your family like that -- and you dance with them and you laugh with 00:41:00them and you cry with them and you're afraid with them and, and, you know, your whole life is there, that's who you have and that's all you need. So, I've found that, that, until you get older --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- you, you, you now I'm not saying for everybody -- some people are
very outgoing, but we were not as children.HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: We were not.
HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: We were shy. And I didn't always want to raise my hand in class,
either, and I didn't half the time.HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: You know?
HENDERSON: That's that's --
ROBERTSON: So, like that --
HENDERSON: -- interesting. No one's made that point, um, that's, that's a very
interesting point you make.ROBERTSON: About living in the house together and --
HENDERSON: Yeah, yeah, just like when you have this, when you have this
connection with people at home, then when you go out to school --ROBERTSON: Yes.
HENDERSON: Yeah.
ROBERTSON: It's different. These are not your confidants. I mean, you know, we
00:42:00fought with each other -- it's not that -- but we were all extremely close.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And we would fight to the full (inaudible).
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: So, this is, this is your, this is your (emphasis) family.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: This is, this is wh -- part of who you are. They make you up, they
make up part of who you are.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: So, you know, in actuality, you don't need other people --
HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: -- until you get older and you are able to go out --
HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: -- and, and be, you know, part of a, a bigger world.
HENDERSON: Mm hm, mm hm, mm hm.
ROBERTSON: So, yes, we were shy people.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: We were shy kids.
HENDERSON: Mm hm, mm hm. Would you, would you -- do you remember school when you
were younger, um, feeling like a strange place or that you didn't like being there or anything like that?ROBERTSON: I, I can definitely remember kindergarten, I'll tell ya. I was so, so
shy. I didn't really have friends -- 00:43:00HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- because I was so shy. I was always afraid to go and, um, some of
the kids were just, you know, they would come to anybody and go around and, and they would take toys and stuff -- I mean kindergarten's not like it is today --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- you know?
HENDERSON: Mm hm, mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- but they would take balls and things like this, and I didn't want
to be in there.HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: I didn't want to be confronted by anybody. I remember just standing
and looking out the window sometimes. I, I was lonely. And the other thing was, I went to kindergarten at four years old, so I, I was already, sometimes, a year to a year and half, almost two years, behind some of the children.HENDERSON: Right, right.
ROBERTSON: So, I was mature in my thoughts and feelings and things but not
mature like these children, you know? There's a big difference between a five and half and a six year old than there is a four year old.HENDERSON: Right.
00:44:00ROBERTSON: Four and a half. So, at that age, there's a big difference. So, I was
shy, and I was first grade, by the time I got to second grade, the same group of kids, as I said, they were all the way through elementary and we went up to sixth grade.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: At that.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And then as I went into junior high, which, for us, was seventh
through ninth grade --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- I was with the same group of kids.
HENDERSON: Mm hm., Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: But, and, uh you know I found my voice and things like that. I uh um,
did things with kids, and I was not quite as shy, but still I was not an outgoing person --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- even when I went to high school --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- even when I went to high school, I was not. I was still, you know,
and to be honest with you, I'm not a real, I'm, I'm more of a quiet person. (laughs)HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: I do better in small groups --
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: -- than I do in large ones.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
00:45:00ROBERTSON: I just do.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: You know? I think, I, I'm quieter than some of my siblings --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- you know?
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: So, but um. So, yeah it followed me through school, but, you know, in
high school, I graduated when I was seventeen, and I had nineteen year olds in my class and at that age, still there's a big difference.HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: When I was in college there, um, there were not a lot of girls from
my class from my age going to college.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: You know, some did but some were coming back to college who had
already been out.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: But, um, you know, you had more men going to college at that time.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And I was, I was a, uh, a naïve person in terms of relationships and
things like that. Um, it's not that I didn't like guys, but I was naïve to a certain degree --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- and I was young.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
00:46:00ROBERTSON: So, I went to school, to go to school.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: That was my focus.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: You know?
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: So, yes.
HENDERSON: Hm. Now when you were, well, first, let me ask, you went, uh,
straight from high school into college. Um --ROBERTSON: Yes, I did.
HENDERSON: Now, why, why was it that you started so early, because starting, you
know, college at seventeen is kind of, that's a lot.ROBERTSON: Yeah, I think the um, uh, I graduated, so (laughs) -- I had turned
seventeen in February and graduated in June and I went to college.HENDERSON: And so how did you --
ROBERTSON: Um.
HENDERSON: -- start school at four? Maybe that's what I should ask.
ROBERTSON: Well, I, I think I think they the cutoff date was different then than
it is now.HENDERSON: Oh, uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: And now what they actually do, I know from my grandkids, they
00:47:00actually test to see if they are prepared for, for kindergarten.HENDERSON: Right, uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: And of course there is a cutoff date, you have to be five by a
certain day.HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: Then, I don't, I don't think it was. I believe, I think you had to be
four by a certain date.HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: And I think that date was April or something like that.
HENDERSON: Right, right.
ROBERTSON: And I went to school.
HENDERSON: (emphasis) Oh.
ROBERTSON: And, you know, um, you know, I went to school.
HENDERSON: Mm hm, mm hm.
ROBERTSON: It wasn't that I could not keep up academically.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: I certainly could, I, I remember --
HENDERSON: You were talking about your experiences in, or what elementary school
kind of felt like, but when you were saying you kind of really found your voice as you got older, um -- and when you were in junior high school and high school -- what did that look like, the finding your voice? 00:48:00ROBERTSON: Well, in, uh, junior high school, like I said, I, I was a little shy --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- but I had a good group of friends that I just hung out with most
of the time.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: But I was able then to talk to the other girls in the class, and
then, and the guys in the class and I, uh, I was in the orchestra, which I loved, to death.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: Now I don't know if you knew, but, but I love classical music.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And so, I -- actually I like all kinds of music --
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: -- any, any kind of music. But I love classical music, and, and being
in the orchestra was, um, very special for me --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- in junior high school, and so I was in the orchestra. But, um, we
got to go -- of, of course in, in New York, you know -- we used to go to Carnegie Hall, we used go to all kinds of, of -- we had to play at different concerts --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- at Christmastime, play different things for, uh, kids in in
00:49:00different schools and things like that. But I was with about five girls --HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: -- we were friends
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: And um, one of the girl's grandmother used to always (inaudible) for us.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: You know? She was able to do that.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And, um, but even talking and, and being able to converse with the
other girls in my class and the, and the boys in my class, it was okay --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- by that time.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: I was able to do that.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: However, I think for me, uh, my family was still the most important
thing to me and, um, especially my two younger sisters.HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: And when I got to high school, when I started working after school,
um, began -- I was working when I, when I went to my senior year. I worked after 00:50:00school cause my classes were over at, um -- what was it, uh, eleven, twelve? I had to be in school by seven --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- they were over like eleven. And then I would have some lunch, and
then I would go to work. Well, when I came home, first started (slightly laughs), when I came home, sometimes Ronnie and Sonia would meet me at the subway.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: Well, this was my senior year, sometimes mother woul -- mother would
let me walk --HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: -- all by myself.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: But, um, I would always stop -- oh, I was walking with my, with my
girlfriends, I would stop and pick up a slice of pizza --HENDERSON: Mm.
ROBERTSON: -- two slices.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: One for me, one of the slices that we would share --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- I would share with my sisters before I would pick up. Um, we used
to have these crunch bars --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- the crunchy ones and the girls loved it -- so I'd always bring
those home, you know.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
00:51:00ROBERTSON: That's another thing we, we -- that was something that we, we were
brought up doing: you didn't bring something in the house unless you had something for someone else.HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: And at that time, they were the, they were the two youngest ones
there, you know.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And, uh, but that was from, from childhood. We always shared.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: That's why we share so much.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: So, when I first went to high school, I had an (inaudible). I went to
school at noon, and I didn't get home until -- out until six and the wintertime, it was dark. So my mother made Perry or T.J. meet me at the subway --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- to walk me home
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- every day. (slightly laughs)
HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: And then by the time (slightly laughs) by the time the next summer
came around, um, it was okay. I, I just walked, because, you know -- I would walk because I had a little girlfriend would walk a certain way, then she would go down her street, and I'd come down my street, sometimes with a (inaudible), 00:52:00but --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- not all the time, but the first year it was. Well, the next year I
was in the morning session of --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: You know. And that's because the school was so large we had to
(inaudible) sessionsHENDERSON: Oh, I see. And what was, what was that school? What was the high school?
ROBERTSON: Central Commercial.
HENDERSON: Oh, I see, I see. And so you would take half-day sessions?
ROBERTSON: Well, it wasn't half-day.
HENDERSON: Oh.
ROBERTSON: We didn't get any study halls and you had no lunch period or anything
like that, you just went to straight to class.HENDERSON: You didn't have a lunch period?
ROBERTSON: No. (laughs)
HENDERSON: Oh.
ROBERTSON: I had a -- I had about five or ten minutes after in my third period
to eat lunch and, and so I hardly ever ate --HENDERSON: Oh.
ROBERTSON: -- any lunch --
HENDERSON: Oh.
ROBERTSON: -- because I didn't have anything like that, that's the way that this
school was.HENDERSON: Uh-huh, uh-huh. And so you were there from seven in the morning to
00:53:00about twelve.ROBERTSON: Mm hm.
HENDERSON: No break, no lunch, no nothing.
ROBERTSON: Right.
HENDERSON: You just go --
ROBERTSON: Right.
HENDERSON: -- straight through. I see, I see.
ROBERTSON: That's right.
HENDERSON: And then -- I'm sorry?
ROBERTSON: You just did your classes.
HENDERSON: And then -- where, where did you work when you were working in high school?
ROBERTSON: I, um, when I was a senior I worked for, like, a mercantile firm.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: You did the (inaudible) and things like that. It was a Jewish, little
Jewish company --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- and they, um, let's see -- they, uh, they, they -- it was
mercantile, and I worked there as a secretary --HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: -- because my school, I, I was able to, uh, um, do shorthand, and I
could do about a hundred and forty words a minute.HENDERSON: Oh wow, uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: Mm hm. I could type about a hundred and seventy --
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: -- at that time.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
00:54:00ROBERTSON: So, I worked there (inaudible). It was wonderful.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: I worked there part-time.
HENDERSON: Mm hm, mm hm. And, this for your senior year only or was it -- did
you start before your senior year?ROBERTSON: No, it was my senior year.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: I went and got a work permit --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- because I was sixteen.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And, um, and so -- and I worked there the senior year, then, when
that was over, I went to college.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And, um, I also -- I had taken the, the test for -- federal test and
the state test and the city test --HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: -- and uh for, um, uh, stenographer --
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: -- or secretary. And I was called for, to work for the federal.
HENDERSON: Oh wow, uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: I was called for all three, but actually -- and I was called for the state.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: And so the same girlfriend, Eleanor, she was my best friend --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
00:55:00ROBERTSON: -- was the maid-of-honor, maid-of, maid-of-honor at my wedding --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- and she was in my kindergarten class, by the way.
HENDERSON: Oh. (laughs)
ROBERTSON: But, yeah.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: So, um, I, I -- we had gotten (inaudible). She was in building down,
way down in the end of Manhattan, and I was in the other, and we were going to go to work together and come home together. Well, the Friday before I was to start work on this on Monday --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- because I went to school in the east --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- college in the east --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- the Friday before I got this call, and they said, "We are
switching you. You have to work on 125th Street in Harlem."HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: And I said, "No, I'm working downtown."
HENDERSON: Uh-huh
ROBERTSON: (inaudible) address.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh
ROBERTSON: "No, you're not, you're going -- " Now, I've already had my
interview, everything has been done, no. We didn't have drug screens and all that stuff at that time. 00:56:00HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: "No, we're going to switch you here. It would be better," they said,
"if you were working in Harlem." So, "I don't want to do that."HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: "Well, you need to think about this, um. Either you, you can report
there on Monday or you don't have to report." But the thing that they said to me was, "You would be better for (emphasis) you -- "HENDERSON: Yeah.
ROBERTSON: " -- working in Harlem."
HENDERSON: Yeah, what --
ROBERTSON: So.
HENDERSON: -- is that supposed to mean?
ROBERTSON: That, that, you know, exactly what that means.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: So, I went home, and I told Mom. And I said, "This what they said."
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: "And I don't want to go there." It wasn't that I didn't want to work
on a hund -- it would've been a lot closer. I said "But this is what they said to me, and I think that, you know, this is not right."HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: And she said to me, "Do you want to work there?" I said, "No, because
00:57:00of what they said. I no longer do." She said, "I think that they're just telling you to work there because they want to put a White girl there. They want her to be there, and they're going to put her downtown."HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: "So you need to decide if you're going to let them do that to you."
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: And I said "No, I'm not."
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: I called them and said "I will not be taking that position."
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: So, uh in the meantime the city had called --
HENDERSON: Mm.
ROBERTSON: -- for me to, to come to work --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- and so I went to work for the city --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- at that point.
HENDERSON: I see, I see.
ROBERTSON: Yeah.
HENDERSON: Wow, hm.
ROBERTSON: Yeah, yeah. And to be honest with you, uh, that was when I began to,
to find my voice, because our parents had alwa -- always told us, "You can do anything you want to do, and you are just as good as anybody else."HENDERSON: Mm hm.
00:58:00ROBERTSON: And I remember, um, I was working for the city as a stenographer and,
um, the secretary, uh, was out that day, and our big boss had a visitor come in and you know, excuse me, my desk was right in front of the door, so he came in, and he said (inaudible), "Um, I'm here to see Mr. Fascoff." I said, "Okay."HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: "Um, may I have your name?" So, he took his card, threw it on my desk.
HENDERSON: (emphasis) Oh.
ROBERTSON: Yeah. Just so disrespectful, threw it on my desk. And so, I did not
pick up the card, and I just got up, and I walked to the back to the boss' office, and I said "Mr. Fascoff, you have a visitor."HENDERSON: Mm hm.
00:59:00ROBERTSON: And I turned around, and I said to him, "You may go in."
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: I didn't know his name, I didn't care to know his name because he
disrespected me so much by throwing that card on my, on my desk like that --HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: (inaudible) to look at it
HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: And I thought, that's not going to happen.
HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: You know, so (laughs). That was something, because I knew that I was
in the right.HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: I knew I was in the right. I would never do anything that was not right.
HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: But I knew that I was in right, so.
HENDERSON: Hmm.
ROBERTSON: Those were just some of the things that --
HENDERSON: Yeah, no, but that's, that's interesting, I guess. The level of, um --
ROBERTSON: And, besides, I was very young, you know.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: I, I like I said, I was still seventeen when I went there --
HENDERSON: Yeah.
ROBERTSON: -- so, you know. So he thought that he could do that.
HENDERSON: That's, uh, that's just a lot to deal with --
01:00:00HENDERSON: Yeah, yeah. That's, that's a lot to have to handle at that, at that
age. Now w -- now you had mentioned, um, as far as the federal job, that you went to Nana talk to her about it after you had gotten the call. Um --ROBERTSON: Mm hm.
HENDERSON: So, in a -- but you also mentioned earlier how you all, like, you
don't, didn't have a relationship with her like you have, say, with your daughters now. Um, when it came to big problems like that, um, like the, you know, like the, the trouble you encountered with the federal job, is that something, those sorts of things that you felt like you could go to Nana with, um, in general?ROBERTSON: Yeah, that was something, like I told you, she always had our back
for school --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- and things like that.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
01:01:00ROBERTSON: It was the more personal things that, uh, when I say I didn't have
the kind of the relationship that I have with my daughters --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- that, you know, even growing up that I had with her. Our
relationship changed a little bit when I got about sixteen.HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: She was, um, we could talk a little more. But I, I never really had
the kind of relationship that -- now, I can talk to my daughters about anything -- to Michelle and Chantal.HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: I can talk to them about anything. They can talk to me about anything.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: We don't get into many -- some kinds of stuff. You know, I mean some
things need to be kept personal, and you don't want to tell your mother that, you know.HENDERSON: Right, right.
ROBERTSON: You know what I'm saying. But there, there are a lot of things that
we can discuss, we agree to disagree.HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: Uh, you know, uh, I think -- I try not to get in fights, unless it's
01:02:00asked. But I also do give advice if I see, "Hey, you know, you need to calm down a little bit with that kind of thing -- "HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: -- or something like that.
HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: But so I didn't have that kind of relationship with my mother, but I
ha -- she's always been there to back us up.HENDERSON: Mm hm, mm hm.
ROBERTSON: Uh, when things like school or things like work or with, uh -- you
could talk to her about things like this.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: Know what I'm saying?
HENDERSON: Right, right.
ROBERTSON: Yeah, she was, she was, um, for some reason, she was extremely hard
on me when I was, when I was younger, you know?HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: She just was, I, I -- you know. Uh, I -- it seemed like I couldn't --
I don't know, she she would say, "You're fast. You're too fast," and yet, look at me, I wasn't doing a darn thing, but, but to her --HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: (laughs) -- for, for some reason that's -- she would she would say
things to me. 01:03:00HENDERSON: Uh-huh and what d -- like, with "fast" -- because Aunt Vernie
mentioned that same word, but I don't know if the meaning was different. Like, what did "fast" mean, what did she mean in (emphasis) that sense?ROBERTSON: Well, she would, she would mean that, uh, you know, uh um, you know,
how little girls were running up to little boys and stuff like that.HENDERSON: Ahh, I see.
ROBERTSON: Yeah.
HENDERSON: Mm hm, mm hm.
ROBERTSON: Yeah, yeah like he's going to go somewhere.
HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: I mean, he wasn't going anywhere with (emphasis) me.
HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: But, uh, she would say that and, you know, um, uh, you know, looking
at boys, little boys and stuff like that.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: Little boys were not looking at me.
HENDERSON: Mm hm, mm hm.
ROBERTSON: So. (laughs)
HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: But she, she was, she was, she was hard on me.
HENDERSON: Right, right, right, right, right. And when, when you were talking
about, like, being able to talk to (emphasis) your daughters now and share 01:04:00things with them, I know that that's very kind of beneficial -- I assume, but I'm pretty sure -- that's very beneficial for (emphasis) them -- you know, just to make their life decisions and everything like that. When you were younger, if you didn't have that kind of interaction with Nana, how did you get guidance or how did you get help or did you get help to --ROBERTSON: Well, I didn't really.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: I didn't really. I seem to have got a lot of things by myself --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- and after I got married, um, uh, uh, I, I did talk to my sisters --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- about things. And, um, too, I need to say growing up, you know,
during the summer I, I used to visit Sadie, from the time I was about eleven.HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: I used to visit her -- the two girls, Ronnie and Sonia, used to go to
Verna --HENDERSON: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: -- after she got married -- and I used to go to Sadie, and she had
the little kids and I would help her out.HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: Ronnie and Sonia were (inaudible), and I think the last time I went,
01:05:00I was probably about fourteen and I went to Vern's -- she was living in, uh, Pittsburgh at the time -- or maybe, yeah, maybe it was around then, and I took Ronnie and Sonia with me, we went on the bus --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- and after that I didn't, um, I, I didn't go anywhere again in the
summer. So, I, I did used to talk to Vern and Sadie.HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: I did.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: And when I, when I was, um, pregnant with Chantal, I used to ask Vern
all kinds of things, you know.HENDERSON: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: (laughs) And, uh, she would tell me things, and, uh, the sad thing
that -- um, about my mom, I didn't get to -- she didn't get to know me as an adult woman.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: You know, she did get to know Sadie and Verna, and she got to know,
um, Ronnie and Sonia as an adult woman.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
01:06:00ROBERTSON: But I didn't, I didn't have that because we moved away --
HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: -- shortly after I got married. And I didn't to go home to visit,
just to visit, but I was not there --HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: -- and she didn't get to, to know to know me as an adult woman --
HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: -- and I didn't get to know her as she was growing older.
HENDERSON: Right, right, right.
ROBERTSON: So, for me that's a, that's a part that is missing --
HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: -- that I, that I missed out on.
HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: I feel I missed out on.
HENDERSON: Mm hm, mm hm, mm hm. Now how do you, how do you, how do you fill
that? If, if you missed out on it, how do you feel like, um, I don't know. You know, if it's, if it feels like a hole or if feels like something's missing --ROBERTSON: Well --
HENDERSON: -- what do you think that you've done?
01:07:00ROBERTSON: Well, uh, I do feel like part of that is missing, but no, um -- Well,
part -- I just try to remember, um, and I tell my kids (laughs), the fun things that I remember when I'm sixteen or seventeen --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- you know, and I would go shopping with mother and my feet was
moaning and I, I hope I could go (inaudible) going all over --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: You know.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: But (inaudible) "Jer would never go out like that."
HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: You know. So, you remember those things.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: And yo -- and I remember the visits, and I remember the short-time
that we did visit them on Staten Island with, um, with the baby.HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: And know um, and I so I remember those things, and I remember the
visits, and I look at the pictures, and, the thing that, that I was -- I'm so 01:08:00happy about is that, before she died, I had gotten to know her, spent the week there --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- with her before she died.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And um, I knew at that time that she was going to die.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: And so I have that, that memory --
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: -- you know that memory.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: So, you (inaudible) and besides, um, she's always with me.
HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: I mean I talk to her on a regular basis --
HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: -- you know. I talk to her often.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And I feel her presence a lot of times.
HENDERSON: Mm hm, mm hm, mm hm. Hm. I'm also thinking about the strength that
01:09:00must be in you, you know? Like to be able to, like you mentioned having the, you knowing, having contact with Aunt Sadie and, and Aunt Vernie when you needed to, you know, call them, I'm sure that they were available. But in, in a lot of -- and, and you had your family (emphasis) surrounding you -- but also what -- I don't know. The, the way that you describe it, it sounds like you had some particularly hard work to do, um, in, in some respects raising yourself, not because you were neglected, but just, this is the way that it fell out with the birth order and -- just however it worked, but you had to figure out a whole lot 01:10:00of stuff by yourself that maybe not everybody ha -- had to figure out by themselves.ROBERTSON: Yeah, I think that's true.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And I did figure it out. Um, I didn't always know what I wanted, but
I did know what I didn't want.HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: And I remember one of my best friends, the one that lived in one of
the buildings --HENDERSON: Um-hm.
ROBERTSON: -- that we weren't allowed to go in.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: I remember, when we hit about fourteen, I think, and, um, we had a
candy store across the street. Mother didn't like for us to hang out in it.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: You know, I would go and buy candy and stuff --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- but, she didn't like for us to hang out in there and, uh, I, I did
go over there a couple of times and had a juice box, and it was a small, you know it was crowded and the kids from the block would stand there, but it wasn't something that I really wanted.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And so, um, when my friend started, uh, smoking reefer --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
01:11:00ROBERTSON: -- and hanging out with a different crowd, I, uh, was able to just
say to myself, "That's not what I want."HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: I don't know why I was able to do that.
HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: Like I said, I didn't know, you know -- at that age you don't always
know what you want, but I knew that I didn't want that.HENDERSON: Right, right.
ROBERTSON: And, so I did, um, you know, we would still talk to each other in
passing and stuff, but we no longer hung out together.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And in high school, we went to the same high school, but we were not,
um, hanging out at that time.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: Because she went a different way than where I was headed.
HENDERSON: Mm hm, mm hm. Now what do you --
ROBERTSON: So.
HENDERSON: -- think -- how, how did it come to be or that, that maybe,
sometimes, it was hard for you to say, if I understand this correctly, it was hard for you to say what you wanted, but you were very clear about what you 01:12:00didn't want? Um --ROBERTSON: Yes.
HENDERSON: Why, why is that, do you think?
ROBERTSON: Um, maybe, maybe a lot of it had to do with I (slight laugh), I think
I've always been able to look, look at myself and see, um -- to think about the consequences.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And, um, I always knew what I didn't want to end up like --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- because I didn't want -- what I didn't want the outcome to be --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- so, if that's not what I want the outcome to be, then that's not
what I'm going to doHENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: Um, I've always been, um, able to, to look ahead --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- to look ahead, I guess, and see, see a vision of where things can
lead to.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: So, I think that that guided me a lot and just not having, uh,
01:13:00somebody else there to, I guess (inaudible) -- because, you know, at that age, my brothers had started to go off doing their own thing, you know, at that age, you know.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: They were hanging out with their buddies and stuff --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- and I did not have any other sister, um, you know. I just had
younger sisters to take care of.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: But, um, just, uh, I think a lot of this had to do with also maybe,
maybe fear of, of getting tangled up into something that I didn't want --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- you know and then that's it.
HENDERSON: Mm hm, mm hm.
ROBERTSON: So I didn't go that route.
HENDERSON: Right, right. Hm.
ROBERTSON: And I, and I began to, um, I began to really, um, uh, maybe for a
01:14:00while there I was becoming a little loner, you know? I, I was becoming -- staying by my -- to myself more.HENDERSON: Mm hm, mm hm.
ROBERTSON: Uh, you know, uh, after high school or you know. I functioned out in
the world okay.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: But, um, I think I was becoming just a little to myself.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh. While being in the house with your family.
ROBERTSON: Yes, of course.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: Of course.
HENDERSON: Mm hm, mm hm.
ROBERTSON: But I didn't go to a lot of parties, I didn't go, um -- I just didn't
go a lot of places, you know? Perry and T.J. would be going to parties and, and -- well, the other thing was, um, mother, mother belonged to the, the club, the "Georgetonians -- these were people from Georgetown --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- and their families.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And, you know they used to have dances, and I (emphasis) love to
01:15:00dance. I, I love to dance, because it's probably the time that I feel free.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: I really abandon myself to dancing.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: (laughs) I just do. And like I said, I like all kinds of music.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: But, um, so we would dance. We would go to the dance, and, uh -- but
of course, you know, I, I was scared. I've gone to a couple dances with, um, our -- when my brothers were there, meaning T.J. --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- Perry, Ronald, Ferdie.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And, um, you know, they've always been kind of hunched around,
watching to see who's talking to me and things that.HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: Uh, (laughs) yeah. It's that kind of a (inaudible). I remember one
time --HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: -- just walking to the cleaners and coming home, and, and one of the
guys from around the corner was, uh, talking to me, and here comes T.J., running across the street --HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: "What do you want?" You know, that kind of thing. But I did not go to
01:16:00a lot of parties, I didn't hang out. When I came home I just came home --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- and I read books. I didn't watch much TV. I was not a TV person at
that time, but then you got into, into the (inaudible).HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And, um, so -- and I'm talking about post-high school, you know.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: And then I, I did meet, uh, I had a friend, um, you know, my friend
Eleanor, but I also had a friend, um, her name was Rachel, and she didn't like that -- she called herself Rochelle.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And she lived on Long Island. So, I would go to her house sometimes
and, and spend the night. And you know and we had a little group that we went bowling with and things like that. But, uh, other than that, you know, we, we hung out, we would go to the movies after work, and then I'd come home.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: You know.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: So, I didn't go to the parties around the block when, when the boys
01:17:00were going. And, uh, you know. Um, Barbara and Ronald and, uh, you know, had parties and, and, you know, certain friends and things. And, well, sometimes I went, but I didn't go very often.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: I didn't, I stayed home.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And I was, I was, I guess I was okay. It, it was kind of lonely but --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- it was okay.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: You know?
HENDERSON: Now was it that, I mean, did you want to go to the parties, but then
just chose not to, or did you just have no desire to?ROBERTSON: I, I think I wanted to go --
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: -- but I was too timid to say I wanted to go.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: I was too shy --
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: -- to say I wanted to go. And at this point, I don't want to say shy,
I don't even know what I want to call it -- reticent -- I, I'm not even sure, 01:18:00but I just didn't feel that I could say I wanted to go.HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: It reminds of a time when I was, um, I was in first grade. (laughs)
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: And I came home and Sadie had taken -- she was taking T.J. to the movies.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: He was in kindergarten, I think. Sadie was out of school already --
no, he wasn't in school yet. And she was taking him to the movies, and I thought, "The movies!"HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: I wanted to go so bad. I wanted to go so bad. Now why is at this age
do I still remember that? It's because I didn't say anything.HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: I didn't go -- I wasn't angry with him. I wasn't even jealous that he
was going, it's was just I wanted to go too, but I didn't say anything.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: I, I didn't think that I could say, "Can I go?" You know another
child might've said, "Can I go?" But I was a quiet child, and I know that and I 01:19:00never -- I don't think I ever asked for anything --HENDERSON: Yeah.
ROBERTSON: -- you know? So, um, that's probably where that came from. I just
didn't go to parties, just stayed home, because I never said, "Hey, I want to go."HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: (slight laughter)
HENDERSON: I think that it's interesting though when you just said you didn't
think that you could say -- like where does that come from at such a (emphasis) young age, where you think you can't say that you want to do something?ROBERTSON: I just never thought that I could ask for anything.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: You know? If, if, and, to this day, if I'm around loud people, and if
they're talking over me, over me talking -- because I to know that I don't have a very loud voice or anything -- and you're talking over me, I tend to, to back away, because you're too loud and you -- 01:20:00HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: -- and I don't think that my voice will be heard. Maybe that's what
it is.HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: I never thought my voice would be heard.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: And the -- that, even in our family -- I just never thought my voice
would be heard. So maybe that's where that comes from. I know that (emphasis) now, but I didn't know that then.HENDERSON: Uh-huh, mm hm. Now do you -- are there times in the family where your
voice was heard and then it maybe surprised you?ROBERTSON: Um, let me think. I can probably think of a time when my voice was
heard, but, um, the outcome was, was so awful for me, because I got angry with Ferdie --HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
01:21:00ROBERTSON: -- because he had a girlfriend and, uh, she was there Saturday
morning, and Ronnie and Sonia watched cartoons on Saturday morning --HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: -- and she was going to -- he was going to -- she was going to watch
something else, and he was going to okay it.HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: And I, I, I (inaudible).
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: And I said, "They watch their cartoons and nobody -- " and, so, I, I
think I was in probably in high school still --HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: -- I don't know --
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: -- and, yes, I was -- uh, no -- I was out of school, because I was
working --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- "And nobody's going to stop them from watching their cartoons."
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: We agreed to watch that -- and he -- you know, it's not that we had
an argument, argument, but I was so (inaudible) with him for allowing this person -- and that's, that's the one thing I did realize: that I would speak up for them.HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: I wouldn't speak up for myself so much.
HENDERSON: Right, right.
01:22:00ROBERTSON: But, um, to, to say that -- and it was on Saturday and so I didn't
talk to him that whole day, and I didn't talk to him the next day Sunday. And we got up Monday morning, and he put his coffee on, and he put the water on for tea for me, and he made pancakes and, and when it was time to leave, he, he brushed my coat off from animal hair --HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: He got the whisk broom and did that, just like he always did.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And you know it was so hurtful to me that I didn't talk to my brother
for that day and a half.HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: It was a terrible thing. And it's the one thing that I tell my kids,
that they all know that story.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: It's because I remember it so well that it was so hurtful.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And I know that my brothers would say, "Yeah, she used to fight in school,"
HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: Well, I have had fights. (laughs)
HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: I don't know if they told you this. But the thing is, is that I never
01:23:00fought for myself. (laughter) There was a girl, there were several girls and they -- she was picked on --HENDERSON: Uh-uh.
ROBERTSON: -- and I remember fighting the girls who were picking on her.
HENDERSON: So you were fighting for your (emphasis) friends when you were fighting.
ROBERTSON: I was fighting for, yeah. And she wasn't even a close friend. It just
mattered that that she was being picked on, she was being hurt by these girls.HENDERSON: (emphasis) Oh.
ROBERTSON: And then I remember there was a friend of mine, I was fighting her
because she was saying mean things to, to this girl --HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: -- these other girls.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: And, um, her brother, was in Perry's grade, and he was going to jump
in. Well, you know that family that I told you about lived on our block, the Garveys?HENDERSON: Uh-huh, mm hm.
ROBERTSON: Yeah. Their brother was a year older than Perry, said, "You go ahead
and beat her up."HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: So, (laughs) (inaudible) he was not going to let anybody come in
there and bother me.HENDERSON: Right.
01:24:00ROBERTSON: So that was the kind of thing that we had on the block. But, yes, I,
I did fighting, but I was fighting because it was injuring someone else, not me.HENDERSON: Right, right.
ROBERTSON: And that's and -- you know, so I know my brothers would say that 'she
used to fight in there,' you know --HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: -- but that's not, that's not really true, not really true. And I
never had a fight past fourth or fifth grade or something like that.HENDERSON: Right, right. But I think that, that's interesting. That's just kind
of like an interesting dichotomy. So that you don't, like -- there were times where you didn't speak up for yourself or didn't, say --ROBERTSON: You know.
HENDERSON: -- fight for yourself, but you would fight (emphasis) literally for
other people. I mean, even when I hear about maybe someone not speaking up for themselves, I never imagine them physically fighting, either, like -- (laughs)ROBERTSON: (laughs) I know, I know. It's, it's -- I know. No, and I really never
01:25:00had anyone to take advantage of my children. That, that just was never was ever going to happen.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: You know. I will fight to death.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: For my family. And so that was something that, um, you know they all
knew that --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- you know. So, yeah.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: You know.
HENDERSON: Mm hm, mm hm, mm hm. Now let me, um, let me ask you, and then I can
draw to a close because I do not want to to take too much of your evening. Where, you mentioned orchestra and that's interesting to me because no one else has mentioned being in anything like orchestra. Could you talk about that for a minute?ROBERTSON: (laughs) No, no one else in our family was in the orche -- was ever
in the orchestra.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And I don't know anyone else that really loves classical music, either.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: Perry did for -- I I think he might have listened to classical music
a while. Ferdie had a collection, and he, uh, was sure to tell Ronald to give it to me when he passed away.HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: So I have that.
01:26:00HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: But, um, I loved -- I played the clarinet.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: And since then I did, uh, take up piano, and I think when I return
next year, I will go back and review the piano.HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: Um, because, um, it's just, um, uh, music has always been the one
thing that has, um, uh -- and I know they say "Soothes the savage beast" -- but it's always been something that um, I can grab hold of. And, um, I, I think I internalize it, I think it felt -- it feels like it's a part of me, and it's, and it, it makes me feel good.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: Makes me feel good.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And, um, so playing in the orchestra was, was wonderful.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: I -- they came to our school in sixth grade, and we had to take a
01:27:00test and to see if you had any kind of ear for music and --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- and what, and I was praying so hard that I could pass the test,
that I wanted to be in orchestra.HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: And so, yes, it was, it was a lot of fun.
HENDERSON: And how did --
ROBERTSON: A lot of fun.
HENDERSON: -- how did you get an instrument, though?
ROBERTSON: The school.
HENDERSON: Oh, it provided --
ROBERTSON: The school.
HENDERSON: -- the instrument for you, uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: Mm hm, mm hm, mm hm.
HENDERSON: Mm hm. And then did you all have concerts or play for your families
or the public?ROBERTSON: Yes, we did.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: We, we had concerts, we played for families, we played for, um, oh,
lots of different things and any programs at school, we played for the graduation, and, um, except for my graduation, I didn't play that. You know, whoever was coming up behind my grade --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- played for that. But the graduation in ninth grade --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- you know, from junior high.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
01:28:00ROBERTSON: And so, yes, we did play, we did play.
HENDERSON: Mm hm, mm hm. That is, is that is very interesting because, no,
nobody, nobody else has mentioned that. Everybody ha -- you know, has had a (emphasis) thing, um, you know, a particular thing that piqued their interest but, um, no one else has mentioned -- like you said -- no one else has mentioned that. Um, and one (slightly laughs) one last question, just because I made note of it when you, um, mentioned it way at the beginning, um, but this dental clinic that my mom was trying to get out of going to when she was little --ROBERTSON: (laughter)
HENDERSON: I remember stories when she was telling me how horrible this place
was --ROBERTSON: Oh, boy. (laughs) Yeah.
HENDERSON: -- and hearing screams like from different floors and every -- and I
grew up telling other kids these stories, because I was like, "My mom! This is the worst place in the world!" Um, (laughs) but, but I only really talked to her 01:29:00about it, so I I, I didn't really understand it. So, students went every week to this dental clinic?ROBERTSON: No, this was the (inaudible) Clinic Guggenheim. Now, you've heard of
the Guggenheim Museum of Art.HENDERSON: I have, yes, Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: Well, this is Guggenheim Dental Clinic, and it was a huge building
in, in New York City.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And um, all students in private, Catholic, public, huge, huge
schools, we all went.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: Now, if your family had, I mean your family didn't have to take you
they could've taken you to a private dentist --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- but, but, we usually when I say we all went there, we all went
there. Schools had different, um, different um, days that they were to go.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: Our elementary school was on Friday.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And you went from first grade to sixth grade.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: Beyond sixth grade, you did not go there. Rocky's the only one in our
01:30:00family who did not go to Guggenheim --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- the only one, because when he came to New York he was already out
of sixth gradeHENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: They will all tell you it was the worst experience we have ever had --
HENDERSON: (slightly laughs) Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: -- in our life. And probably why we are all so terrified of dentists.
HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: All terrified.
HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: The, the drilling in our teeth, I think it was experimental. Um, they
would drill our teeth without any Novocain and the drills at that time, you know, how they have these high-speed drills now, with the, with the water spritzing out?HENDERSON: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: We didn't have those.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: We didn't have those. These were bulky, and I'm telling you Kelly
just talking about it, it just it gives me the chills. They would drill down in our teeth and, oh, it was so painful. When, when you went to the second floor, second floor was check-out.HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: Ok, sometimes if you got there and they didn't have enough time, you
01:31:00know --HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: -- because you know we have so many people. Um, and they say, "Go to
second-floor," they were just going to check you out, come back the next week. We were so thankful. Third floor was for extractions.HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: Fourth and fifth and sixth floor, I think, were for fillings and
things like that.HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: And a lot of the dentists there were foreign, uh, dentists who had
come over --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- and they needed to refine their skills and or whatever they needed
to do. But we had a lot of foreign dentists in there. And it was -- this was, uh, uh, just a horrid experience. It was an awful experience. So, you would be on a list every six months, you would go, first grade to sixth grade, you would go and every six months your name would come up on the list, and they would have to go to the dentist.HENDERSON: How --
ROBERTSON: And it was a Friday morning and you would go to the class -- six
01:32:00months your name was on the list? Okay, you go. And you go every week until they have completed, then they, they check you out.HENDERSON: What?
ROBERTSON: If you only needed, uh, one filling or if you needed something -- he
would go, and he, Vern said he, he never had anything, he didn't need anything, he was always just get up and --HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: We'd say, "How does that happen to him?"
HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: "I've have all these fillings!" We wonder why -- how did we get all
these fillings? We never had candy growing up --HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: -- except for Christmas and stuff because we didn't have money for it --
HENDERSON: Right.
ROBERTSON: -- we didn't drink soda.
HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: If you had a soda it was a real treat. We didn't have that, things
like that. Where did he get this from? I don't know.HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: So, uh, I think to this day that they just drilled from -- for
practice, I don't know. But all of us had the same experience and if you are a 01:33:00child in, in, in New York City, at that time, you would've had that experience. Um, I, I met a woman here who, um -- she is nurse, she was a nurse with me.HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: She's retired now. She grew up in the Bronx, and Eileen said to me
"Guggenheim!" She knows exactly what I'm talking about. If you were a child at that time -- up until I don't know when they closed it, but you know your m -- your mom and, and, uh Sonia went, too. Um, you, you would know what Guggenheim Dental Clinic is. If you by any chance pull tha -- pull that up --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- on the Internet, you would see, "What is this? Guggenheim Dental Clinic."
HENDERSON: Now I wish, I wish you cou -- not that, I wish you could see the look
on my face. Not that I thought that my mom was (emphasis) lying --ROBERTSON: (laughter)
HENDERSON: But it was just like, growing up, I was like, "Ma, it's not that bad,
just go to the dentist!" And she's like, "No, I can't" (laughs). And it -- 01:34:00ROBERTSON: If you were to take a poll from Sonia up to Sadie --
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: -- every one of us would tell you the same thing. Rocky, doesn't have
(inaudible), because he doesn't know.HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: He didn't go; he was too old. But, yes we all had that experience,
and it was, it was a horrific experience, it really was.HENDERSON: Now how does -- and I mean, I understand how it was a different kind
of, you know, set of, of decades and everything like that, but if there are that many -- this is, that's all the kids in the city, pretty much. All the kids in the city having this same horrible experience, ho -- how does the place stay open for -- you know or how does how does, how how --ROBERTSON: Well, when you think about it, you know you got public schools in the
five boroughs, uh, and I'm talking about Manhattan, Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens, and Staten Island.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And you know private Catholic schools and private schools everywhere
and the Jewish schools and --HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
01:35:00ROBERTSON: -- this was coming out of Brooklyn and, and Long Island, and we all
went there because that was the dental clinic. People didn't have a lot of money.HENDERSON: Yeah.
ROBERTSON: People who lived there. And I'm betting (laughs) we're not the only
family (inaudible) experience.HENDERSON: Yeah, no, I'm sure that you aren't.
ROBERTSON: That's absolutely true.
HENDERSON: That's amazing.
ROBERTSON: Yeah, it's true, absolutely. And some schools had, you know, whatever
schools were on Friday, those are the schools that went on Friday. Some had Monday, some had -- (break in audio) and I remember the time, T.J. -- I don't know if, you know, he told you this. (laughs) We were going back to Guggenheim, and we were going on our own because our name come -- came up in the summer -- (inaudible)HENDERSON: Mm hm. (laughs) Wait, the name comes up in the summer, too? Like,
there's no escaping?ROBERTSON: Yes, yes. because our, because our six months came in the summer, so
in the summer you had to go on your own.HENDERSON: (laughs) This is horrible.
01:36:00ROBERTSON: So, we were going and we lived on a hundred and sixteenth street, and
the Guggenheim was on seventy second but over on York Avenue. It's over by the river.HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: So we went down -- and the bus was fifteen cents -- we went down,
and, um, I think we decided not to go in --HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: I (laughs, inaudible) -- not to go in. And I think that we were,
well, I, I was going so I had to be sixth grade not, not above that --HENDERSON: Uh-huh
ROBERTSON: -- and he must have been -- he was two grades behind me.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: So, we went down there and decided coming back, "Let's not take the
bus." We wanted a hot dog from the hot dog vendor.HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: (laughs) So we, we spent the money and got a hot dog. (laughs)
HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: And we were going to walk back, but that's a (emphasis) long walk.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
01:37:00ROBERTSON: Oh, my gosh. Those blocks -- we know -- those blocks are very long.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: So, we started walking back, and I was like, "Ugh, where are we? I
don't know where we are!" He was like, "I know where we are! I know!"HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: So, um, we did, we walked back home. Now, he was brave that day
because my brother T.J., I was the one always taking care of him --HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: -- I always took care of him. So (laughs) that day he was the brave one.
HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: (laughter)
HENDERSON: Now, did anybody find out what you guys had done?
ROBERTSON: No, not until we were -- we're grown up now, we tell everybody what
we did. (laughs)HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: We tell everybody all the things that we did. Perry and I,
especially, uh, eating Ferdie's Baby Ruth out of his pocket and patting down each coat for change and (laughs) --HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: -- all of those little things we did when we were little.
01:38:00HENDERSON: You guys sounded, uh, a little bit more mischievous than --
ROBERTSON: (laughter)
HENDERSON: (laughs) -- than the other ones mentioned being.
ROBERTSON: No, we were, we were actually very good kids, we really were, and,
and um, uh, you know, uh, hanging out with, with two boys --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- hanging out with those two boys. I did get in trouble a lot for
things that I didn't do, because they would do something, and Mother didn't care, you know, I'd say "I didn't do it," but I'd get a whooping anyway, you know --HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: -- because I was hanging out with them, and they knew it, but they
didn't say anything that 'she didn't do it' --HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: Uh, Perry was the very brave one, he always was.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: (inaudible) but, he would do anything, you know. And he wasn't afraid
of things. I was afraid of everything; he wasn't afraid of anything. But, yeah --HENDERSON: By you --
ROBERTSON: -- hanging out with them was nice.
01:39:00HENDERSON: By "brave," do you mean he would, like, do dangerous things, or he
would, like, stand up for somebody in trouble or something?ROBERTSON: No, he, no, it wasn't that, it was -- he just um, he was just a very
determined person. I, I remember, uh, I guess, maybe the second grade -- so I must've been in first, something like that -- he had to wear short pants to school because, you know, the boys didn't wear long pants.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And so up on the roof -- you know we lived on the top floor -- up on
the roof, the roof landing, there was a roof brick there --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- and so he hid his long pants in there and the -- (laughs) in the
morning when, um, we were going to school, okay, Mother locked the door, and T.J., Perry, and I were, like, going downstairs, then we snuck up, onto the top floor --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- and he put these long pants on.
HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: He would not -- he was deter -- things like that. I would have never
01:40:00done that.HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: But he was not going to wear short pants. He was determined. He took
off the pants and stuck them in the little thing, put the brick back, and then he'd put on the long pants.HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: And when he came home, went up and did the same thing. Now, we used
walk to school and walk home together, um, until a certain age, you know. And then we would -- sometimes we'd see each other, we'd just walk home.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: And you know, some kids wouldn't want to be bothered walking with
their brothers and sisters --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- but that was not us, no.
HENDERSON: Mm hm, mm hm.
ROBERTSON: So. But, yeah, he was, he was the one that -- I was always in awe of
him, because he was not afraid to do things like that --HENDERSON: Uh-huh.
ROBERTSON: -- so.
HENDERSON: Uh-huh, uh-huh. And then what about Uncle T.J. on the other side of y'all?
ROBERTSON: Uncle T.J. he was uh, uh, the baby --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: -- for a long time.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: Six years. And he -- I was always taking care of him --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
01:41:00ROBERTSON: -- you know?
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
ROBERTSON: But, um, in, in that sense, you know, I was, like, taking care of
him. (laughs)HENDERSON: (laughter)
ROBERTSON: Well, so.
HENDERSON: I understand, I understand. Well, what we are going to do, if it's
fine, is pause here. I don't ever like to say, "Stop," because if it's okay, um, with each of you, I contact you later just to kind of do some follow-up after I've listened to the tapes and, you know, checked out the transcripts and everything like that, if that's fine with you.ROBERTSON: That's good.
HENDERSON: Yeah.
ROBERTSON: That's fine.
HENDERSON: Yeah.
ROBERTSON: But I so appreciate your giving me, uh, your time this evening. It
was, it was a lot of -- it's a lot of fun to talk, to all of you, but, but, um, I had, uh, I had, uh, good time talking.ROBERTSON: (laughs) Okay, thank you.
HENDERSON: (laughs) Thank you. You'll hear from me soon. I'll talk to you soon.
01:42:00ROBERTSON: All right.
HENDERSON: Okay.
ROBERTSON: You have a good night.
HENDERSON: All right, thanks bye.
ROBERTSON: Bye, bye.
