Marco Villano oral history interview, 1995-09

CHRIS LUTZ: Chris Lutz, interviewing Mike Villano, September 1995. Spring Hill, Florida. Okay, where and when were you born?

MIKE VILLANO: Sept….[inaudible]

LUTZ: Stupid thing isn't working….[inaudible] September 29, 1906.

VILLANO: That's right.

LUTZ: Come on [inaudible]…What was your neighborhood like?

VILLANO: Well, it was beautiful in those days . . . and, um, it was old fashioned, you know, [inaudible] an Italian settlement

LUTZ: Mmhmm.

VILLANO: In those days, you know?

LUTZ: Southern Italian?

VILLANO: Huh?

LUTZ: Southern Italian? All over Italy?...[inaudible] Settlement? Or was it people from all over.

VILLANO: From all over. From all over. Mostly…mostly Italian.

LUTZ: Um, you were telling me the other day about your grandfather and the labor movement. What did he do in the labor movement?

VILLANO: My grandfather was a [inaudible] organizer for labor unions in New York City. He and Matty Capelli . . . movement.

LUTZ: Mmhmm. What did they do to fight for it?

VILLANO: Um….it goes back and forth…

LUTZ: That's okay! Tell me a few things.

VILLANO: Well, with the business at the time, especially…the ones that I remember, was, um,…

LUTZ: Mmhmm.

VILLANO: See…they had…they were working at a 10-hour day for a miserable wage. So they were fighting for an 8-hour day with a…an increase . . . to unionize…to unionize that bunch, instead of keeping that . . . Palladino. How 00:02:00can I explain it? At coolie wages, at coolie workmanship, you know, whatever, sweatshop stuff. You know?

LUTZ: Yeah. And was he a construction worker?

VILLANO: Oh, he was a laborer, just a plain laborer.

LUTZ: Okay. And so did he unionize Palladino? Did Palladino give in?

VILLANO: Palladino always disagreed with him, but he offered him…he offered him a lifetime pension if he would agree to his terms, and grandpa and Matty Capelli --.

LUTZ: They refused him?

VILLANO: But this went on for quite a while. They debated quite a while. He was threatened, my grandfather was threatened by Palladino. So he threatened him!

LUTZ: How did he threaten him?

VILLANO: At the point of a gun. There was no other way in those days. They compromised, and they went on the 8-hour day. [inaudible] It was doubtful about unionizing them then, you know what I mean?

LUTZ: [inaudible]

VILLANO: But eventually, they got together.

LUTZ: Your father was a union man, too, right?

VILLANO: My father came over this country when he was only 11 or 12. Eventually he worked into the plumbing industry and they unionized, they were moving forward with unionism. So…with unionism…

LUTZ: How was he treated by the union?

VILLANO: Um, he was…it's a long story. Pop was a ballplayer. In order to 00:04:00satisfy his parents, because his parents had a [inaudible] in those days.

LUTZ: Mmhmm. Were ballplayers kind of rowdy?

VILLANO: So…he changed…he played under the name of Jim Williams. They were all rowdies in those days, most of them…

LUTZ: Mmhmm…and so…

VILLANO: Were alcoholics. They're the worst kind of athletes of their times.

LUTZ: Mmhmm.

VILLANO: Not only were they alcoholics, but they…they….they abused themselves, you know? In fact, my father always used to tell me that the 00:05:00worst…the worst conditioned athlete was the ballplayer. They all got on…they…most of them had a lot of potential athletic ability.

LUTZ: Yeah.

VILLANO: My father played the ball. Meantime, he's still in the 463 local.

LUTZ: Mmhmm.

VILLANO: In the summer, he played ball. In the winter, he went back and forth in the trade.

LUTZ: Mmhmm.

VILLANO: But when he finished with baseball, he came back to the trade and he 00:06:00wanted to use his birth name, Villano. But this Freddie Deegan and Tim Hopkins were secretary and treasurer of the union at that time, and they advised my father to keep his name "Jim Williams" because if you was Italian or a Jew you had no chance of getting a job, keeping a job in New York City.

LUTZ: So, he kept his name as Williams, instead of Villano?

VILLANO: He kept the name of Williams.

LUTZ: Mmhmm.

VILLANO: I went into the trade, I wanted into the trade, in 1924 I started the trade or in 1920, as a helper. In 1924, I went out with my tools. My father 00:07:00was still alive at that time. He sponsored me, and they advised me to stay with the name of Mike Williams. To this day, I've still kept that name, not legally, but I kept that name as a union member.

LUTZ: Hmm…

VILLANO: Never had any trouble with it. In fact, all of my benefits from my union, pension, are still received…

LUTZ: Were people prejudiced against Italians a lot then?

VILLANO: Well, they were prejudiced against the Italians and the Jews -- there's no doubt about it. But they slowly worked away from it, see? As a matter of fact, those years, there was about three Italians -- Sally Mancuso, Billy Jerome, and my father and about two Jewish fellows, Morris Weiner, [inaudible] Fox, and maybe one more -- they got together because of the known bigotry in those times against the Jews and Italians. They formed a pact amongst themselves that if they had anything to say on the floor, the other worked with 00:09:00them. They got the greatest respect of anybody, I think, in their local. In fact they wanted my father to run as president, as union local president. Pop refused it because he was strictly a family man. He knew….he knew the ins and outs.

LUTZ: Well now, when you started, in the twenties . . .

VILLANO: I started…I started as a plumber in 1924.

LUTZ: What was it like being a helper? You started as a helper, right?

VILLANO: Well, I started as a helper…when I was twenty years old…I mean, when I was…in 1920…

LUTZ: 14 years old? Something like that?

VILLANO: Yeah, about 14, 15 years old. Yeah.

LUTZ: What did you do?

VILLANO: Helped!

LUTZ: [inaudible]

VILLANO: And tried to learn the trade. See, in those days, they were allowed one helper to a man. In other words, the helper used to carry the tools all the 00:10:00time. He learned the trade from the bottom up. I mean…

LUTZ: So, did you help your father?

VILLANO: I helped my father, I helped others, I helped George Meany, I helped Ray Johnson, I helped quite a few men. But the first one was my father because he was fluent enough to know that with all their…all their knowledge of the trade, that I could learn a lot better.

LUTZ: Where was your family living then? Still in New York?

VILLANO: No, we had moved to New Jersey, Fort Lee, New Jersey, in 1914. Fort Lee, New Jersey, was the greatest movie center of the world at that time. And my 00:11:00parents [inaudible] Pop took a lot of interest in politics there, too. In fact, he died . . . campaigning for a candidate . . . I forget who it was, I think it was Willie Hoebel. [inaudible] So, he…he was campaigning from door to door with a fellow by the name of Joe Zucki and told Joe Zucki, 'Gee, I feel bad.' So he says, 'I'll stop off…I'll stop off here at Dr. Sandler's place' on Center Avenue. And Dr. Sandler was going out, coming down from the 00:12:00outside steps going down to the sidewalk to visit his patient. He turns around -- he saw my father there -- and he says, 'Jimmy, turn right around.' He says, 'I'll take you home.' He put my father in an oxygen tank. This must have been about 1944. My father was in the oxygen tank for about 24 hours and he passed away.

LUTZ: Mmhmm…he was still a pretty young man then, wasn't he?

VILLANO: He was 57. Pop was 57.

LUTZ: Who took care of your mom after that?

VILLANO: Mom…we had…she had a place. Pop… mom had just sold their place up 00:13:00on Fletcher Avenue. In fact, it was the opposite of John Street.

LUTZ: So they were in West Fort Lee?

VILLANO: They were in West Fort Lee. We spent most of our life there, in West Fort Lee.

LUTZ: All right…

VILLANO: Pop had just sold that house with the intention of putting us in business. Mom was left stranded in an apartment. Mom couldn't take that no more, alone. She couldn't take that alone no more. And about that time, my 00:14:00father-in-law had passed away and my mother-in-law didn't want to leave…live alone. So we…Nina and I, my wife and I, went there to live with her for a while. Then my mother happened to get a brainstorm. She buys a piece of property on Center Avenue right next to the old Baseball stuff…the old Fort Lee A.C. baseball field. It was almost like a swamp. She asked me to lay out 00:15:00the plans and build…start building a place for us, with that idea. In the meantime, I was working out of town -- back and forth, back and forth -- or working…working from different jobs out of state, and building this place. When I got it finished, there was a, oh, period of time there [inaudible] . . . 00:16:00when my mother-in-law had passed away, there was a period of time where a lot of builders or some corporation decided to buy all of Hudson Street, Center Avenue, Hoyt Avenue, Hoyt Avenue where my in-laws were living. And…so I decided when that place was sold, I decided to come over . . . when that place was 00:17:00sold…see, I had finished the place with my mother, now, but she still couldn't live alone. They had asked me…they had asked me if I wanted to share…share the place on Hoyt Avenue with Joey, my brother-in-law Joey, and I said 'No, I think I'll go over and live with my mother.'

LUTZ: Let's go back to the movies, because you were in the movies, weren't you?

VILLANO: Well, took parts -- little parts, little parts.

LUTZ: Uh huh

VILLANO: In fact, I remember one incident where I was taking a part with Mabel Normand. This is silent movie days here. I was taking a part with Mable…Norman Talmadge….

LUTZ: Mabel Normand

VILLANO: Mabel Normand! And we were supposed to be a bunch of kids, just hell raisers, you know. So we were shooting craps. And they'd roll the dice there. [inaudible] Mabel Normand was supposed to be shooting the dice and always coming up 7 or 11. So I picked up the dice and I says, 'Let me look at them.' Before I picked up the dice, I stepped on the dice. Instead, I missed and I stepped on her hand. She hauls off and gives me a smack, says 'Don't you ever do that again.'

LUTZ: [laughter][inaudible]

VILLANO: That's the end of my career. No, I had another incident where I acted in a part where Matty Rupert had a son he was promoting -- Matty Rupert…Rupert the director, he was a director in one of the movie industries, then the owner. You know. So, he had me as one of the kids in a gang, almost the "gang comedy" kids. You know, in fact, I think that's when it started just before that. I took a part there where I fought…I fought a colored fellow from Englewood, New Jersey. Boy, did we pound the devil out of each other. This poor kid finally…finally had enough of that, see. So Matty Rupert asked 00:20:00his son. . . asked me to fight Matty Rupert's son, his son. So I did, and I must have started to bang him a little too hard. So he come up to the corner, he says, 'Take it easy on my son, see, and I'll give you $10.' So I faked a knockout. The name of the picture was For You, My Boy. I 'll never forget it, because I saw…we saw the picture, the whole gang, I guess, the whole Fort Lee was up there. They showed that picture -- and they kidded me about it a long, 00:21:00long time.

LUTZ: You made Mattie Rupert's kid

VILLANO: But that was the end of my career. My grandfather took a part one time with the Perils of Pauline. No, it wasn't Perils of Pauline. It was, oh some big picture there where he supposed to be . . . See, grandpa was on crutches at that time, see…and they picked him out to take a part as a beggar and kissing the queen's hand. You know [inaudible]

LUTZ: Now, you went around…you left home when you were a young man?

VILLANO: Yeah, when I was 16 years old, I ran away from home. I don't know why 00:22:00to this day. Never wrote to my parents, never even sent them any card or anything. But they didn't…but I think my father knew where I was, because there was a fellow on the job that we were working with, we run away together . . . Traveled by train down to Philadelphia and from there on, we hitch-hiked into Miami, Florida, even as far as Pascagoula, Mississippi. [laughter] On the way, traveling from Philadelphia, we hit Virginia and we worked on a peanut farm for something to eat. We worked on a peanut farm in Virginia, and instead of 00:23:00going in for dinner, we'd strip to our jock and saturate ourselves with red vinegar all over our body. And believe me, Chris, we were so black you couldn't tell us if we were black or white. When we got down to Miami, Florida, we went into a white man's restaurant to eat. This is where I got the bad impression of Florida that stayed with me all my life. He told us to get out of there. 'Get out of here, black man,' he says. 'or I call sheriff.' So I says 00:24:00to him, I says, 'Look at my fingernails. Feel the tip of my nose.' He says, 'Get out of here, black man, or I call sheriff.' My partner, I still can't remember his name to this day [inaudible] . . . he says to me, Jewish fellow, [illegible] So we got out of there and we then went as far as Pascagoula, Mississippi. Meantime we parted. He went on his way and I went on mine. Down 00:25:00in Pascagoula, I stayed with a family by the name of Martins. They were fish skinners. They're called fish skinners, see? [inaudible] And I stayed with them about maybe two days. They wanted to adopt me, right? I…I had lied to them; I told them my parents were dead. I decided to go back home, but I was ashamed to go home. I stayed in New York City on 129th Street across the way from St. Joseph's Church. [inaudible] In a little place, I think it was $2 a week for room and board, there.

LUTZ: Mmhmm….what were you doing to pay your room and board?

VILLANO: I got a job as a helper in the trade. Well, I was there about a week. 00:26:00We had a . . . I always called her Aunt Elsie, but she was really a cousin of my father who came from New Haven, Connecticut, to visit us, and she stayed with us for quite a while because she was going to Columbia University to study law. And her name was Villano….Villano. Now, getting back to when I was in my room, one evening I see my Aunt -- I called her aunt. She says to me, 'Mike, you want to go home?' just like this. I says, 'yes,' thinking that here's 00:27:00where I'm going to get hell from Pop. I went home to Fort Lee and my father, all I got my father…from my father was, "My Prodigal Son," and he put his arms around me, and we both cried. This has been my favorite Bible story all my life since. [inaudible]

LUTZ: [inaudible] Your father was [inaudible]

VILLANO: He could be a tough guy, Chris, but he still was gentle with his family.

LUTZ: Speaking of tough guys, tell me about George Meany.

VILLANO: He was a hell raising bum. Jolly, good natured, but not an excellent plumber. But George Meany was one of the best speakers I ever knew. As far as unionism, you couldn't beat him. Our union at that time, our local union, was 463. Eventually it became #2. The members of the 463 local in New York City 00:29:00sponsored George Meany to Columbia University to study law. Now, I think most of us know how far George Meany went. George Meany was our delegate for a long time after that. He never became president. But then when he organized the CIO together to combine with the… we went into [inaudible]

LUTZ: Were you glad when the AFL-CIO got together?

VILLANO: Huh?

LUTZ: Where you glad when the AFL-CIO got together?

VILLANO: Oh, sure. Otherwise . . . [inaudible] voted George down. But George was offered… this is where I admired the man. He was offered a good $100,000 00:30:00a year plus expenses as the organizer of almost all of the CIO and the AF of L. [inaudible] refused. 'I'll just take the $30,000 from now 'til I die.' [inaudible] We always compensated him for that.

LUTZ: All right. Well that's George Meaney. What did you do after being a helper?

VILLANO: I was the youngest plumber ever accepted in 463.

LUTZ: How old were you when you were accepted?

VILLANO: About 17 years old. Little over 17.

LUTZ: [inaudible] And you were the youngest ever! And, um, and then were 00:31:00you…was it called a journeyman or a master?

VILLANO: They call it a master,

LUTZ: Master.

VILLANO: My father…when I first went out with my tools….my father insisted that I go out as a….as a jobber for a while because a good jobber makes a good plumber.

LUTZ: What's a jobber?

VILLANO: Well, like, it's you know, like if the sink broke, you'd go in and fix it up. Stop [inaudible]

LUTZ: Like a jack of all trades?

VILLANO: Yeah

LUTZ: Yeah.

VILLANO: [inaudible] But then when I got real active, I was supreme. No doubt. But in the meantime, I went to New York Trade…I got in New York Trade…I went 00:32:00to New York Trade to take up wiping.

LUTZ: Okay

VILLANO: I went to school . . . not Cooper's Union

LUTZ: Well, no matter, you'll think of it.

VILLANO: Yeah, to learn how to [inaudible] draw plans, architectural drawings. And drawing plans. I could never, I was offered a job when I graduated in 1928. I was married then. I was…graduated in 1928…I was offered a job as an architect at an architect's office. But I refused that because I could never stay inside. I loved the outside. I loved plumbing, I really loved plumbing.

LUTZ: Okay, and so then you did what after that? 1930's in the Depression. 00:33:00What did you do during the Depression?

VILLANO: Nothing! I just went caddying. I went caddying.

LUTZ: Caddying for golfers?

VILLANO: Golfers…for about seven years

LUTZ: Oh!

VILLANO: Off and on, off and on, you know. Once in a while, you know, I did a job. But, I think, in about 1939 or 1940, I was making a mission in the evening, and [inaudible] and I was making a missiong in the evening…a silent prayer. 00:34:00And I feel a tap on my shoulder, and I turned around, and it was a Jewish friend of mine by the name of Benny Olyphant. 'You want to go to work?' I says, 'Yes.' He says, 'Meet me outside.' Now, he had gone to my home, and I told him…my wife told him that I was at the church. He came in from the Bronx way over to the East Bronx. So, when we went outside, he says meet me at this certain job, certain place. I want you to help me to take charge of this job! Because he was not a charge man and I could help him. [inaudible] That was the 00:35:00first job in plumbing that I had in almost [inaudible]

LUTZ: Well, didn't you go to work on the World's Fair that year?

VILLANO: I worked on the World's Fair.

LUTZ: It was the '39 World's Fair.

VILLANO: I think, yeah. I worked on…[inaudible] That was the first job. Off and on . . . seemed to be my style back to the trade. In the meantime, I always paid my dues.

LUTZ: Um, what did you work on at the World's Fair?

VILLANO: [inaudible] The Italian building was very interesting. It had big cascades, big waterfalls there. But the funniest part of it -- the waterfalls 00:36:00-- the construction that they had there for the waterfalls was all done by Italian engineers. That started to collapse.

LUTZ: [laughter] I shouldn't laugh [inaudible]

VILLANO: Good thing that the Americans were as smart as they were. Well, they…they strengthened the structure – but it was a beautiful sight to see there -- all I've been telling you -- when all the lights were on. But I worked on the Russian Pavilion.

LUTZ: The Russians were there, huh?

VILLANO: Johnny Wild….Johnny Wild had those three buildings, the Children's World, the Russian building, and the Italian building. Johnny Wild was doing the plumbing. My father was one of the foremen there. [inaudible] 'Course he 00:37:00was the only one who could talk Italian.

LUTZ: But he spoke English very well too, didn't he?

VILLANO: Oh, my father spoke perfect English. My grandfather spoke…spoke…spoke perfect English.

LUTZ: [inaudible]Now, didn't you do something with the Vatican building too?

VILLANO: Yeah.

LUTZ: [inaudible] So, then World War II was coming along. What happened in World War II?

VILLANO: Well, there was no work in New York. So we…we were issued tickets to go to certain camp jobs whree they needed men.

LUTZ: So where did you go?

VILLANO: The first…the first job we went to was fort Meade down just off Baltimore.

LUTZ: What was Fort Meade like?

VILLANO: It was good. We had a lot of fun. We worked hard. I worked so hard, being away from home, that I was too tired to go gallivanting. My money went home. I was just about to get on my feet. And I started to pay bills…this I wanted to mention Chris, I started to pay a bill that had accumulated during my bad…my bad times of the Depression. A fella' by the name of…the 00:39:00Haberdashery store, Charlie and Louis Schweitzer.

LUTZ: Ah, yes.

VILLANO: This I wanted to mention. Now, I used to pay so much a week, or Nina used to -- I still owed about $1,200. And Louis Schweitzer was alive at that time. He says to me and my wife Nina, 'You don't owe me any more.' I say, 'What do you mean? I owe you about $1,200' He says 'Dump that, too.' You with me? That's why I love the Jewish so much. [inaudible] 'When you needed me, oh…needed me, and you were with me, when you didn't need me, you 00:40:00stayed with me.' You know, we did business with him. Now Charlie, I always thought Charlie never knew this. For years after -- Louis had passed away -- Charlie and I…Charlie Schweitzer and I and the family got very friendly. We went to a visit down in Miami, Florida, and Charlie had a -- we were at some hotel, the Golden Pheasant or whatever it was. Charlie had an apartment in one of these high rises, and he invited us over. Charlie and Ida, his wife. Well, 00:41:00over the course of conversation, I mentioned this. And he says…and I says 'Charlie, you never knew.' 'Mike, I knew. We had a pact between the two of us. If someone come over and ask us for something and we couldn't give it, you know, we'd tell him 'Gee, I have to refuse you because Louis, maybe, don't like the idea. Or vice versa.' [inaudible]

LUTZ: That's very cute.

VILLANO: But…but he says, 'But I knew yours.'[inaudible]

LUTZ: That's nice. That's nice. They were very good to Mom, too.

VILLANO: Oh.

LUTZ: Yes, they were nice people.

VILLANO: [inaudible]

LUTZ: [inaudible] 9 and 10? They still recognized Ann. And of course Ann still goes there.

VILLANO: Yeah.

LUTZ: Well, anyhow. It's World War II and you went to Ft. Mead.

VILLANO: [inaudible]

LUTZ: Oh, is he? I'm so sorry. I just saw him last year.

VILLANO: Well she…the kids took over. [inaudible]

LUTZ: Well, anyhow. It's World War II. And, you went to Ft. Mead. Where else did you go during the war to find work?

VILLANO: Muscogee, Oklahoma…we went to Muscogee, Oklahoma…around Lake Seneca, all camp jobs. We went down to Tennessee, Clarkesville, Tennessee. We 00:43:00went to Fort Gordon in Georgia. Before I get to Tennessee, I'll go to Georgia. There's six cars, all with NewYork or New Jersey license plates on the cars, went into Georgia -- big fence there and a guard there. We asked him, 'bout 22 of us, we asked him if this was the place where we can present this card to get a job there. [inaudible] 'No, sir!' He says. So we went around the gate and come back to the same place. 'No, sir!' Finally he said, 'For God's 00:44:00sake, let's get it over with. [inaudible] We got a ticket to come in here.' So he admitted us. There was bigotry even then!

LUTZ: Ah! He was trying to keep you out. Because he saw the plates and saw who you were -- I get it.

VILLANO: He's…because when we first got there, we asked the question the first time, he says 'My God! A Yankee blockade!' [inaudible] Now, that's over with. Now we get down to Clarksville, Tennessee, I stopped off…I stopped off at the Yadkins Hotel before I went to the job. And after the job…because 00:45:00this was after the war. I was supposed to go to take charge of a section, do the plumbing and steam there. And the…and the…

LUTZ: Okay, at the hotel itself?

VILLANO: No [inaudible]. Camp job. Biggest hospital….second biggest veterans' hospital in the world, I was supposed to do a section of it. But my car happened to be broken down. That's why I stopped off at the hotel place. In 00:46:00the meantime, the car was left up there in [inaudible]. So, the next morning, I'm standing there waiting for a bus – [inaudible] the bus driver, '[inaudible] does this bus take me to Clarksville?' He says, "No, sir!" So I waited for another bus, and I got the same answer off this…"No, sir" . . . there's an old man tooling around in a yard with a white picket fence that 00:47:00I'll never forget. He says "Son, you better take..you better tell that man…"….No, it was Salisbury, North Carolina. I asked him if this is the bus to Salisbury. And he says, 'No, sir.' So… after the second bus, There's an old man by a white picket fence. --He was there all the while I was waiting for the bus. "Son you'd better say 'Sawlsbury' instead of 'Salsberry,' or that man will never let you on that bus." I remember this well. I got along very good on there. Now, the next job was done with local 00:48:00help. And I had a colored fellow by the name of Fred Cate, a black man who was a former bomber in the army for nine years. [inaudible]. He had a big family. His wife had died, so he quit the army and so he asked for a job as a laborer and we put him on wages. The wages was a dollar an hour for laborers, dollar for laborers….dollar and a half for the plumbers and steam fitters – now 00:49:00Fred Cate was so good. Helpful in many, many ways. I gave him a quarter more on the side, see, without the permission of my boss. [inaudible] found out about it, and told me to cut it out. So I gave it to him under the table.

LUTZ: So the white guy told you to cut it out. I see.

VILLANO: Yeah, so still, they liked the guy. See, they liked the guy. But it was, you know, general practice. [inaudible] I think it it still is, of course.

LUTZ: So, [inaudible]

VILLANO: Fred Cate, I asked him…I don't want to get away from Fred Cate for a while…I asked him… I says, I…in fact I had asked first, 'I can get you 00:50:00up to here…New York City as a laborer. Join the union up there.' He says, 'No way"

LUTZ: No way?

VILLANO: "No way. I'll stay down here."

LUTZ: Why?

VILLANO: After nine years in the army, he must have known something about New York.

LUTZ: [laughter] Yeah, well.

VILLANO: You know, [inaudible] more about bigotry [inaudible]. There was a church that we used to go to, Tom Dorland and I, used to go to every morning. Tom Dorland [inaudible] from New York.

LUTZ: Irish guy?

VILLANO: Huh?

LUTZ: Irish guy?

VILLANO: Yeah, big old Irish guy. So we used to go to mass every morning, 00:51:00church by the name of Sacred Heart. Now, there was 300 parishioners there. I was 301. Now, that church was never opened up until 3 or 4 minutes, the gate…the doors weren't opened until about 3 or 4 minutes before the start. And the morning we finished there; they closed the doors for fear of sacrilegious.

LUTZ: Because they were Catholic?

VILLANO: Yeah.

LUTZ: Okay, so they were scared that others would come in?

VILLANO: Yeah. Take the gold chalices or whatever it was. Destroy everything.

LUTZ: Was that realistic? -- Brown who? Governor Brown --

VILLANO: Governor Brown of Tennessee.

LUTZ: Was he a good governor?

VILLANO: After that, things started to change a little bit. But anyway, I want to bring this out. Father Helford was the priest…the pastor there. And he…he asked me if I could get him enough kemp tile to fix up the floor in the chapel.

LUTZ: [inaudible]

VILLANO: There was a fellow by the name of George O'Brien who was a superintendent or inspector of the job who I was very friendly with. I asked 00:53:00him if it was possible. Now George O'Brien usually come every morning but never received because he was a divorced man. So…so…he gave me the okay. Oh, it must have been about 80 to 100 kemp tiles, floor tiles. We got the scraping machines there and all the help I wanted on the job. These fellows had to scrape the floor, wooden floor, with all the pews taken away, put on the 00:54:00side, coating of black tar paper, and then we'd lay the tile. When we got the tile, we finished it all up, and we decorated that place better than they ever saw in their lives.

LUTZ: Did they like it?

VILLANO: Now, in the meantime there was a Father Dyers, who was a Holy Ghost father, maybe four-car garage as his chapel, all black in it. I'm bringing this out because there's still a little bigotry here, [inaudible] 'til later. It 00:55:00was… New Year's Eve, both Tom and I decided….new years eve…decided to go to the Holy Ghost church.

LUTZ: The church where the black people went?

VILLANO: All blacks. There was about 6 of us who went there, and it must have been the best collection that they had ever got. Father Dyers told Father Helford about it. [inaudible] for fear not for the collection, Chris, believe 00:56:00me, for fear of starting trouble. You know.

LUTZ: Uh huh. Was he scared that people would take it out on the Catholics?

VILLANO: Huh?

LUTZ: Was he scared that the prejudiced people would take it out on the Catholics?

VILLANO: Yeah, not only Catholics, but a bigoted feeling against anybody they thought would be trying to disrupt their way of life. See? Well, it was…there was a parade of the Masonics…yeah, a Masonic parade, and I was invited to just go up with the Grand Master or whatever you want to call him. They put me on a 00:57:00white horse, gave me a white hat and white boots. The first time I was ever on a horse, and I was scared stiff. Father Helford happened to see me in the parade. And he made a fist at me. That Sunday he gave me hell.

LUTZ: What for?

VILLANO: And I says….and I says, 'Father, what are you giving me hell for this for? I says, These fellows were the ones that gave you…gave me a hand to put this kemp tile down and fixed up the church!' 'Uh-oh.'

LUTZ: Little embarrassing, then?

VILLANO: It was embarrassing to the extent that he realized I had promoted some good will here, see?

LUTZ: Mmhmm. Well, so you decided not to settle in the South?

VILLANO: [inaudible] When Governor Brown was elected governor of Tennessee. Of, um, Salsbery.[Inaudible]

LUTZ: You heard….was he more of a labor guy or just less of a bigot?

VILLANO: Well I don't know that for sure, but I do know that he was more tolerant of the Blacks and the Whites. He was really trying to make it up, a 00:59:00big state of harmony. Which I think it was…it was [inaudible]

LUTZ: [inaudible] Harry Truman. I wanted to ask you about FDB. So we're talking about FDR and Social Security, and some. Now, tell me what you thought about the New Deal.

VILLANO: See, I don't know…I don't remember whether…weather Franklin D. Roosevelt was for labor. I don't know. I do know this, that he did a lot…he did a lot for the underprivileged person. [inaudible]

LUTZ: Mmhmm.

VILLANO: If the rich would only realize it was for their good too.

LUTZ: Mmhmm. Did you vote for FDR?

VILLANO: No

LUTZ: No? [laughter]

VILLANO: I never voted for a Democrat president with the exception of…

LUTZ: Kennedy?

VILLANO: Kennedy.

LUTZ: Yeah. Um, how come you voted for Kennedy?

VILLANO: Because he was Catholic, to tell you the truth. Because he was Catholic and I…and because I thought he was young enough to…to cater a little bit to unionism or whatever [inaudible].

LUTZ: Now, you weren't too crazy about Harry Truman, were you?

VILLANO: Well, I liked him, but I don't think he ever did anything that he didn't have something on his mind for a purpose. You know what I mean?

LUTZ: Ahh. Yes, I know what you mean.

VILLANO: I think he always had a…a reason for any action that he ever done.

LUTZ: Like an ulterior motive?

VILLANO: Yes.

LUTZ: Oh, okay. Yeah. All right, and so…so you were an Ike man, huh? You voted for Eisenhower

VILLANO: I was an Ike man because I thought…I thought a lot of . . . I tell you where I really...I really liked him, when he became…president of the Columbia University. I was working…I was doing an alteration job there…for…for….for Eddie Wild, the son of Johnny Wild. Johnny Wild had died. I was doing an alteration job on [inaudible] Hall, Fairweather, and, um, I forget the name of the hall…Hamilton Hall.

LUTZ: Okay.

VILLANO: Ike was made president of Columbia University. And another fellow by 01:02:00the name of Walter Stokes, who was injured in…in the second World War, with a shrapnel wound. And we happened to see President Ike…Eisenhower passing by, and he says...Stokes says to me…Walter Stokes says to me, 'Mike, watch me give him the highball.' And he just went like this to him

LUTZ: Saluted him.

VILLANO: And a big smile come on Ike's face, you could never…and he returned the salute right like that. That made me form some liking to the man.

LUTZ: Uh huh.

VILLANO: And when he ran for president, I was all for him.

LUTZ: Vote for him. All right. [laughter] Well now, so we're up in the '50s. What kind of work were you doing in the '50s?

VILLANO: 50's, well, [inaudible]. I was still plumbing.

LUTZ: Yeah, okay. Well, tell me about a typical day.

VILLANO: I was taking charge of work [inaudible], I was taking charge of work in the '50s. I think I was working for Barney Strassburg. I think they were doing most of Third and Second Avenue from the 30s…from the 30's up to the 50s [inaudible]. I was roughing out jobs and letting somebody else finish them. You know.

LUTZ: So you'd rough it out [inaudible]

VILLANO: [inaudible] I was with him almost fourteen years.

LUTZ: Barney Strassburg?

VILLANO: Barney Strassburg [inaudible]

LUTZ: Good people to work for?

VILLANO: Good people to work for. But he best man I ever worked for was Johnny Wild.

LUTZ: Yeah.

VILLANO: The last fellow I worked for, before I retired, was Eddie Wild.

LUTZ: Mmhmm.

VILLANO: Eddie Wild had slowed up for a while, see.

LUTZ: Mmhmm.

VILLANO: So he laid me off. Said, 'I'm gonna lay you off, Mike. You're gonna go work with J.L….

LUTZ: J.L. Murphey.

VILLANO: 'I'm sending you because there's gonna be a lot of overtime there.' [inaudible]

LUTZ: Okay.

VILLANO: [inaudible] There's so much overtime that I did in all my life.

LUTZ: Yeah?

VILLANO: [inaudible]

LUTZ: What were you getting paid then?

VILLANO: Getting paid a dollar and a half an hour with the…with the overtime and all, double time.

LUTZ: Ah hah.

VILLANO: I was making as high as 400 and some odd dollars a week

LUTZ: Oooh

VILLANO: But, anyway, until I couldn't take it no more.

LUTZ: Yeah. [laughter]

VILLANO: Finally..finally got…Eddie Wild got busy again. And he called me back, he says: 'Mike, [inaudible] don't forget that I need you here now, and, see, don't you forget that I got you the job over there.'

LUTZ: Now…

VILLANO: So, I went back to work for Eddie Wild. And I…I think the last job was for Horizon House.

LUTZ: In Fort Lee?

VILLANO: In Fort Lee.

LUTZ: So you worked there…

VILLANO: I worked there about 3 years.

LUTZ: Mmhmm.

VILLANO: [inaudible] In 1963, I think it was, Kennedy died, right?

LUTZ: Yeah.

VILLANO: 1963, I was working on that job, I like to bring this up because it's odd that you'd feel this way. I was working on that job…1963, I was working on that job in Horizon House…and I heard that news that Kennedy was shot. And I bursted out in tears and I said to the bunch that were listening to the tv, [inaudible] 'The only president I ever voted for… Democrat president I ever voted for and they had to shoot him!' [inaudible]

LUTZ: It was terrible!

VILLANO: [inaudible] It was an awful feeling.

LUTZ: Yeah. It was terrible. I remember where I was too. It was a terrible thing.

VILLANO: Yeah.

LUTZ: Well, now by 1963, you had…your four children were grown, weren't they?

VILLANO: What?

LUTZ: You had four children, right? By that time, weren't they all grown?

VILLANO: [inaudible]

LUTZ: All right, so, he was just coming out of college then?

VILLANO: [inaudible]

LUTZ: Did any of your sons follow your path into plumbing?

VILLANO: No. They wanted to. Anthony wanted to.

LUTZ: Uh huh.

VILLANO: I said, 'No way. You got too much knowledge to go into plumbing.'

LUTZ: Uh huh.

VILLANO: See, I had…Anthony worked with me on that Horizon House…

LUTZ: Is that right?

VILLANO: …during the summer months.

LUTZ: Ohhh….I didn't know that. Um, do you have any…um…Jimmy was a union fellow, wasn't he? But not plumber…

VILLANO: Jim…Jim…but he…Jimmy wanted to…see…when he come out of the service, he wanted…he wanted to, um, to go to college. I says, 'What do you want to be, Jim?' And he says, 'Gee, I don't know.' I says, 'You better think it over a while first.' About a couple weeks…couple months afterwards, he was still living at home. He was living at home for a while. He says to me, "Geez, I still want to go to college." I says, 'What do you want to be, Jim?' He says, 'I don't know!' And I says, 'You better get a job.'

LUTZ: Uh huh.

VILLANO: And my wife's cousin, Frank Papalia, [inaudible] he got him a job 01:09:00at…with him up on St. Jacks…not St. Jacks…up on…Long Island there…

LUTZ: Okay. The movie studio?

VILLANO: In the movie…in the movie studio, developing and printing, see?

LUTZ: Ah.

VILLANO: Jim worked up there [inaudible] foreman. He was pretty good at that then. I don't think I made a mistake, Chris. Although I think Jimmy held that against me for a while.

LUTZ: Mmhmm.

VILLANO: But he got married afterwards. Right?

LUTZ: Mmhmm. And one of his boys is a union guy, isn't he? Didn't, um…

VILLANO: His was a union job.

LUTZ: Yeah? And then Joseph, his son is a union guy, isn't he? One of…

VILLANO: Joseph is in the union, too. He's with the bulldozing gang, you know…the con…construction, but he's all union. He works the 01:10:00bulldozers…the tractors. [inaudible] mechanically minded…he's a whiz.

LUTZ: Yeah. So you've got 5 generations of Villanos.

VILLANO: Yeah.

LUTZ: Yeah. It's a good thing. Um, who would you say was the biggest influence…

VILLANO: For me?

LUTZ: …in your life?

VILLANO: My grandfather and my father.

LUTZ: Your grandfather and your father, yeah? How come?

VILLANO: Well, my grandfather come over here, I had a lot of respect for him. Come over to Jersey – when he moved to Jersey, he was crippled, you know, he had two hips broken, but he had the, oh, the spirit to fight. He used…he 01:11:00built…he built…[inaudible] he built me a wagon…a small wagon that I could carry stuff with, [inaudible] manure, gravel. But he built me a wagon and then he had an old chair that he cut the…the rungs off so he could sit on there, you know. Then he'd load the wagon up with the chair, and he'd walk with the crutches – and we'd go…and a big, big band saw –

LUTZ: Mmhmm.

VILLANO: And we'd go to the woods in Fort Lee, right where the cemetery is where he's buried now

LUTZ: Mmhmm.

VILLANO: That was all woods then, see? We'd chop down a dead tree. In the meantime, he'd had me climb the tree, tie a rope up on the end of it…the top 01:12:00of it. And he says…he says…now, when we cut this a certain way, he…he said he'd tell me….tell me to hold the other end [inaudible], he'd pull me…him on the chair, and he'd pull me and the damn band saw, whatever you want to call it, [inaudible] it was about six foot long or five foot long

LUTZ: Wow.

VILLANO: With him – and when they'd get the tree down to a place where it was almost ready to go…fall, he had it cut so all you had to do was give it a yank -- just give me a chance to get out of the way –

LUTZ: Uh huh.

VILLANO: And give it a yank and then, run like the devil yourself!

LUTZ: [laughter][inaudible]

VILLANO: [inaudible] fall right where he wanted it, then we cut it up in pieces…chunks.

LUTZ: All by hand?

VILLANO: All by hand, right. Ready for the…wood for the winter.

LUTZ: Ahh.

VILLANO: We had a garden, a grape arbor. We were living on Jones Road, across the a way from the school. There was no sidewalks then, and no paved streets. We had a garden alongside the…alongside the grape arbor that my grandfather -- and I betcha there wasn't a rock or a pebble in that whole little garden…the 01:14:00garden 50 feet long and maybe about 50 feet to the house.

LUTZ: That's huge.

VILLANO: We grew everything there but the kitchen sink. But there wasn't a pebble. All those pebbles are paved out in the street, plus the fact that I had to clean up the manure first. You know. That went into the garden.

LUTZ: Yeah. Right.

VILLANO: That fed one, we fed the other. He was admired so much by the teachers that they used to idolize him. [inaudible] He spoke fluent English [inaudible] Grandpa spoke english so fluently that he used to stump speak for Tammany Hall when we lived in New York when he was a welder.

LUTZ: Mmhmm…and your dad, you said, was a…

VILLANO: Huh?

LUTZ: And your dad was an influence, you think?

VILLANO: Yeah, oh, yeah.

LUTZ: Okay.

VILLANO: My father was a [inaudible]. My father didn't have no temper. He spoke to us softly all the time. The only time I ever got hit by my father, I got a slap across the back; it wasn't funny. I went…I swam the Hudson River while a fellow named Nicky [inaudible] rode the boat. We went across the Hudson River. And I come home late. We celebrated a little bit, see?

LUTZ: Uh, huh

VILLANO: And I come home late, and he asked me where I was. You know, why wasn't I at home on time. So I lied to him, I was playing ball. Well, don't be mean, I says. I was playing ball. 'How can you play ball at nighttime!' I…Isays, 'Pop, that's where I was! Playing ball. ' I 01:16:00didn't tell him I swam the Hudson River, because that'd but the fright in him. He knew where I was, because he was told by others. He gave me a shot across the back. He says to me, 'You could be the…um…you could be the worst crook in the world, but don't ever lie to me.' And that's it. After that it was always calm. See? You can bet that I never lied again. To him, anyway! [inaudible]

LUTZ: Yeah, well [inaudible]. If you could take one incident in your life, that was so happy that you wanted to live it over again, what would you pick?

VILLANO: Marrying my wife, Nina.

LUTZ: Marrying your wife. Nina Ciccone.

VILLANO: Nina Ciccone. We had a most beautiful life. Hard times, and we saw the Depression. Don't that we didn't.

LUTZ: Uh, huh.

VILLANO: That's other than my family. [inaudible]

LUTZ: Yeah.

VILLANO: [inaudible] family man. But I loved my wife, and she loved me.

LUTZ: Mmhmm. Yes.

VILLANO: I'm sorry that I didn't tell her I loved her more and more than I did.

LUTZ: Oh, she knew. She knew.

VILLANO: I did. I'm sorry that I didn't let her know more and more.

LUTZ: She always said you were the boss of the house.

VILLANO: Well, I was and I wasn't.

LUTZ: [laughter] Yeah.

VILLANO: In her own quiet way, she had her own way of dealing with the kids, boy.

LUTZ: Uh huh. Well I think the grandkids could tell that she was a strong person.

VILLANO: I'm also sorry that I didn't show more love to my children. You know what I mean?

LUTZ: Mmhmm.

VILLANO: Let them know. Not only just pet them. Or tell them…but, I never…I don't think I ever said "I love you" to them. You know?

LUTZ: Uh huh.

VILLANO: But I did in ways, expressing with my hands, keeping them close to me. I always believed in a . . . I remember Father Corcoran giving a sermon one time "Give me an old fashion round table…kitchen table' he says, 'where the 01:19:00family used to meet there. Father come home from work, and we sat there and finished our meal, and thrashed out all our troubles for the day, [inaudible] and nobody got away from that table until they were finished with confessing with one another, you know? Telling their troubles, hashing their troubles out, one way or the other. I always remembered that. Always remember that. Father Corcoran used to say, give me a child up to 8 years old, and I'll tell you what he's gonna be when he gets older. You, know. That always was in the back of my mind. That's really family, I think.

LUTZ: Yeah.

VILLANO: I hate to see sitting down and everybody rushing to get away to get to 01:20:00the parlor. This is modern times.

LUTZ: Yeah, tell me about it. But it is nice to sit down at the table [inaudible]

VILLANO: You see, I can realize…I can realize, your father's upbringing. He never knew his father, right? And it was a big family, and it…and your mother must have struggled a lot. And he…almost had to survive with very little help until he got…he got a little older… and then he was still on his own. And when he had a job with all different hours. -- You never knew when he was going to come in or when he's gonna go out. The [inaudible] never called. So his meals were never combined. To carry.

LUTZ: But, you know, I still remember, when he was home with the kids, always he would talk with us.

VILLANO: Yeah.

LUTZ: He and mom would always sit and talk with us.

VILLANO: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That I can see.

LUTZ: They probably learned it from you.

VILLANO: But spontaneously your father would get up from the table all of a sudden, like… he heard a bell or something "Gotta go."

LUTZ: Yeah.

VILLANO: And then you wouldn't know…so his meals sometimes weren't with the family, all the time. You know what I mean?

LUTZ: He had a very hard time [inaudible]

VILLANO: Different hours, you know?

LUTZ: Yeah.

VILLANO: You couldn't expect anything different. And that's traits sometimes that stays with you. People sometimes can't understand it. You know?

LUTZ: Uh huh.

VILLANO: But then they realize, hey, that's part of his life.

LUTZ: Yeah.

VILLANO: How can he change old habits. You can't!

LUTZ: Why not? Why would he? And that explains why mom talks so much too, right?

VILLANO: What?

LUTZ: This explains why my mother talks so much too, right? Just…I'm just kidding. [laughter] Now, okay, if you had to take one time…let's just make it just with the work world [inaudible] family…if you had to take one time 01:22:00that you would never live again, because it was terrible, what would you not want to repeat? Or maybe do a little differently.

VILLANO: I don't think I would ever want to live my life any differently.

LUTZ: Ahh. Mmhmm.

VILLANO: [inaudible] Sure, we had hard knocks. I remember, I was caddying there for a while. I was caddying for a time witih Chief McGilligan -- I was married, you know. Chief McGilligan was fire…fire commissioner in New York City.

LUTZ: Mmhmm.

VILLANO: He used to come over and play in Englewood. He used to bring his son-in-law over -- nice kid, very nice kid. But he was a stern Scotchman, see? I remember the first time . . . he was a poor tipper, Scotch -- can't help it. 01:23:00So they..they told me to caddy for him. So we used to stand off on the first hole off to one side, see? And he hit a ball at me on the first level…he hit a ball at me that went right through, over the fence, into the woods. So I ducked, and I never went over for the ball. [inaudible] And he says..when he…first thing he said when we got together again, he says to me, 'You know, you never went over for that ball.' And, I says…I was old enough to tell him off. [inaudible] I says, 'You stand where I was and let me hit at you and see 01:24:00what you would do. Would you go after the ball, or duck?' Well, he was stunned.

LUTZ: Yeah.

VILLANO: He was stunned for a minute. But you know, during the course of the round, I got him so that he was eating out of my hand. I was teaching his kid how to play golf, see?

LUTZ: Mmhmm.

VILLANO: And I had found a couple of balls. I gave them to the kid. So, every time he used to go up there, he used to ask for me. And he gave me a half a dollar tip -- which is something he never did in his life! So, the reason I brought him up . . . so…he says to me…I says to him one time, 'Jesus, I 01:25:00got to get to work. I said…I got to get work. I don't care what kind of job it is, even as an usher at the Polo grounds or Yankee Stadium.' He says to me, 'Give me a chance to talk to somebody.'

LUTZ: Mmhmm.

VILLANO So the next time I heard that he was coming up, I waited for him on the 13th hole. I asked him. He says to me, 'No possible way I can help you.' An usher's job -- even if you work for tips there, at least you got something to bring home to put bread on the table. Of course, I was desperate at that time. So the caddying lasted. [inaudible] I still stayed caddying for awhile, 01:26:00see, until I got called maybe here and there. So, it was…Mimmy was the caddy master. I forget his last name. This guy was an old friend of mine, see, that we used to caddy together when we were kids. He was caddy master at that time. And he was letting guys like Pagangos and that bunch go out 2 or 3 times a day, and I was standing there like a mummy. You know, I says to him, 'Mimmy, you think it's fair that you're letting these guys out twice, and I can't put even a piece of bread on my table?' He says, 'If you don't like it, why don't you quit?' Well, we tangled up, see? I had him by the throat. I was 01:27:00going to kill him.

LUTZ: Uh, huh.

VILLANO: It's a good thing my brother Ralph pulled me away. He was single then. [inaudible] They called the police. Detective Scuteri came in from Englewood. He was a good friend of mine.

LUTZ: Scuteri? Yeah.

VILLANO: His people…his people were originally from Fort Lee, but he lived in Englewood. He was chief of police…he's chief of the detective corps in Englewood. He says, 'Mike, what the hell you trying to do, kill this guy?' I says, 'I'll kill him if I want.' [inaudible] and Nick, I says, "I'll stay here until [inaudible], otherwise something is gonna happen. You better put me in jail." So about 7 o'clock…oh…About 6:30 that night, there's a 01:28:00guy come in wanted a caddy. It was only a dollar a round. We went 9 holes and he gave me a dollar. That was the last time I…I caddied there. But Mimmy was fired. Mimmy was fired. No, that wasn't the last time I caddied there. Mimmy was fired, and there was a…one…the other guy was a tailor's son from [inaudible], good friend of Roth's. You see…if I knew, maybe, maybe I would have…that the others were giving him a kickback . . . I didn't know. You 01:29:00need to let me know what you want. I'm in a position where I have to do it, I have to give him the kickback. It's a kickback to him. Maybe I would have killed him altogether, maybe. I don't know. Who know? But nothing, [inaudible].

LUTZ: He knew.

VILLANO: But I…that's how desperate I was. Slowly…I caddied a little while and I used to get a job once in a while. I caddied more or less to get enough money so I could go to New York and go to these shops [inaudible] where, you know, you're looking for help.

LUTZ: What was the union doing then, to try and get people jobs? Did the union try to get people jobs?

VILLANO: Oh, they tried. They used…they used to issue…to permit us to maybe go work for a guy two weeks or so, just to…just to keep you on your feet a little bit –

LUTZ: Yeah.

VILLANO: To pay your dues, at least.

LUTZ: Yeah. But, um, and you stayed a union man [inaudible]?

VILLANO: 'cause I remember…oh, yeah. I remember one time I was issued a ticket by Mike Fox. Mike Fox. I always liked him. Mike Fox was one of our delegates that was...was…in the World War. When World War II was over, he had one stump, see?

LUTZ: Okay.

VILLANO: But he didn't want to come back to the trade. But he had a father 01:31:00that went in the business, Abe Fox -- I mentioned him before, he was one of the Jews working in the…

LUTZ: With your father…er…your grandfather.

VILLANO: With my father [inaudible]. So he had a stump, see. So Abe Fox says, 'Work at the trade. You gotta come in with me and I'll put you as one of my foremen.' He says, 'No, I got to work.' He used to work with . . . you stopped with the hot lead then before you close them. He wasn't perfect, but he used to do a good job, see? Anyway Mike got…got to be delegate later on. So he got me a job for two weeks at R…Rocktell. He says, 'I got you a job 01:32:00at Rocktell.' This is before he became delegate. And he was the foreman on that job, that's why I mentioned it. So Rocket…I got two weeks in there. In fact, when I went.

LUTZ: Okay, we were talking about Mike Fox, right?

VILLANO: Yeah. See…Mike says to me, 'Mike Let me speak to Rocktell.' I went to Rocktell and he says to me, 'Well, give me a…come in tomorrow. Maybe . . .' I come in tomorrow, next day . . . Nothing doing. I come in the 01:33:00next day . . . Nothing doing. Finally, I went in the third day -- he had told me, 'Come in' anymore, in other way -- he says, 'Nothing doing.' I says, 'For goodness sakes, give me my two weeks and get it over with!' See [inaudible] So, he says, 'All right, come in and work tomorrow.' So I worked hard. Oh boy, I gave him the best I could, the best I had in me. And I got my two weeks in, and I thought I was going to stay with him because Mike has says to me, 'Jesus, this guy loves you.' But he had a bunch of relations there that he had to support -- you follow me? I realize that. But I didn't 01:34:00at the time, I didn't know that at the time. He come over to me, one time on pay day. He says, 'Mike, I have to let you go. I'm sorry. He says I got so many relations I don't know what to do with myself.' I says, 'Okay, Mr. Rocktell.' But I worked for him later on, and I felt good with him. You know, I stayed with him for awhile. But I took it graciously, see? I was…I was thankful I got the two weeks. The wages then was about $60 a week.

LUTZ: Yeah, so that was a lot better than caddying, wasn't it?

VILLANO: You darn right.

LUTZ: Yeah? So you'd never do the Depression over again, well --

VILLANO: No, I never

LUTZ: Nope?

VILLANO: I don't want to…I never want to see that again, no way.

LUTZ: What were some memorable people from your union and working life? Who sticks in your mind. Not famous necessarily. Who sticks in your mind?

VILLANO: I liked Mike Fox. I liked George Meany. I liked Johnny Flood.

LUTZ: Who is Johnny Flood.

VILLANO: He was one of our delegates later on, you know. Archie Heckler, I grew to like. I liked Archie Heckler a lot.

LUTZ: What was so good about him. Why did you like him?

VILLANO: Well, [inaudible]. I liked Archie Heckler a lot. Archie . . . we got 01:36:00very friendly, but I never knew he had picked me out as a good friend. You know what I mean? I was working on the job – oh, Museum of Art or something like that, we used to alternate the job -- and there was a fellow by the name of Roy Health who was taking charge. He was an out-of-towner taking charge of the job. So, I didn't know it was a percentage job. [inaudible] I had no idea. So, I worked hard. And they used to ridicule me, but never told me. [inaudible] But I don't think it would stop me anyway, because I worked more to console 01:37:00myself, and to console my feelings for my life itself. You know?

LUTZ: Yeah, yeah.

VILLANO: It came to the test, the plumbing test. I worked on galvanized pipe. We were doing a lot of that, more than anything else. That was the worst. And he put down the test. You have to put on the test in any job in New York. If it's not occupied, if it's a new building, you got to put it on a water test, see? More or less, to see if everything is not clogged up. You know, [inaudible] You don't mind the leaks unless it's a split. If there's a split pipe, then you'd have to repair. Seemed that everything I did there on 01:38:00galvanized [inaudible]. Wasn't a split. Leaked like the devil. Archie Heckler was taking the test. See? He was one of the delegates, and he has to. So, Archie Heckler wouldn't pass the test. So he says…he says, 'Blame it on him. He's the one that did this job.' See?

LUTZ: Meaning you?

VILLANO: Yeah, me. Yeah, I ignored him, see? It seemed that Roy Health formed a dislike to me because I refused to go and bring the water…the…the water 01:39:00supply to the roof tank, up above the steel beams. See? 'Cause I was afraid of heights

LUTZ: Oh, no, for real?

VILLANO: And I refused to go up there and work a bit chain tong up there? You're crazy! So, in order to get even with me, because he's afraid to fire me – [inaudible] this I find out afterwards -- that after working hours, he went around hitting the pipes with…with a hammer, to cause them to leak. I found out off one guy that was working with me on the same thing. See?

LUTZ: Son of a gun!

VILLANO: He told me because he was riding with Roy. That's when I got mad at him. When Archie Heckler found out this happened, he passed my job, he passed the job. Which…a leak like that . . . unless it's a split, you know what I mean? [inaudible] cause it was only gravity feed, see. And there was nothing on the vents. It was just air. Wouldn't…wouldn't harm anything afterwards. [inaudible] He says to Roy Health . . . He gave Roy Health hell about it. This Roy Health turned around and said, 'You let all these guinea so-and-so's do this, and all these [inaudible] bastards do that. You let them pass this test.' He says, 'No, I passed it only because you blamed Mike for something 01:41:00that you . I got a good mind to chase you back home to Chicago where you come from.' The irony of that is, few years afterwards, there was a young Health working on my job. He was a helper, and he was afraid of heights.

LUTZ: Oh, no!

VILLANO: And I wouldn't let him go up there. I wouldn't let him go up there. So, he must have gone home and told his father about it. I hated this man. I really hated him, the only man I ever really hated in the business. I went to a meeting one time . . . He must have told his father . . . I went to a meeting 01:42:00one time and Roy Health comes over to me and says, 'Mike, thanks for what you done for my son.' I says, 'That's something that you, I don't think, would ever do. Would change in all your life. You're still that way.' He says, 'No, Mike. No, Mike, I learned a lesson from this.' But I still . . . not that I hate him. I don't hate anybody. 'cause… I just couldn't take to the man. That kid, when he got his tools and he worked on my job, he did everything right. He worked like the devil.

LUTZ: His father must have said something to him.

VILLANO: So he come here from Chicago. He was just sent here because he happened to know the boss. I think it was McGovern that was the boss. Another thing I remember one time on Riker's Island. We were working one time on Riker's Island. My father was alive at that time. We used to take a . . .instead of going….instead of giving us the privilege of riding the ferry to the Riker's Island -- we were making some cells and new water mains and everything else in here. Anyway, we had to take a old…old…low paddle boat, 01:44:00whatever you want to call them, [inaudible]

LUTZ: Yeah, I know what you mean. Like a [inaudible]

VILLANO: One of these day liner boats. [inaudible] It was an old dilapidated boat. We used to stand alongside the smokestacks to keep warm, see? So one time, yeah…well…we were working on Riker's. Were there a good stretch. And all of a sudden, the union finds out that they had a fellow, a non-union fellow, as the time keeper there, for this here McGovern. So they closed the 01:45:00place down, so he got out of there. You know. They…they were going to persecute some of our foremen that were there. But they didn't know anything about it. They didn't know. He was just a timekeeper. They never give it a thought that the time keeper wouldn't be allowed, that a nonunion man wasn't allowed as a time keeper. So we were laid off for awhile. But there was a couple of men left to show that there's somebody there working, you know, otherwise, there's no money coming in for McGovern. So, while we were laid 01:46:00off, one day, the fellows went across this boat. There was an explosion on the boat. Of the…the smokestack blew up. It killed Charlie Jerome, Bill…Jim Bennett, and Johnny . . .oh, I forget his name, but he was related to McGovern. See? They were killed. They were the ones left on the job, they were killed outright. So, Tommy Graziano and I were working on that job before…before we 01:47:00were laid off . . . he says, 'Mike let's go back and see McGovern.' We went back to McGovern and, first thing out of Tommy, he had a squeaky voice -- he says, 'Thanks for laying us off.' He says…I says…McGovern says to us, 'I wish I would have laid them all off.'

LUTZ: Yeah.

VILLANO: Johnny something, I forget his name . . . these guys were all beautiful people.

LUTZ: Where they from Fort Lee?

VILLANO: Huh?

LUTZ: Were they from Fort Lee?

VILLANO: No, these were all New York men. Charlie Jerome was related to Tony Jerome that Pop was in cahoots with. Charlie Jerome weighed about 300 pounds, about 250 pounds.

LUTZ: Huh. Um, would you say it's been a good life?

VILLANO: Good life?

LUTZ: Good life for you?

VILLANO: Yes. I'll tell you why. Cause. The hardship I've overcome.

LUTZ: Yeah?

VILLANO: The good times, I've overcome! It all combined, and it came to good.

LUTZ: Huh.

VILLANO: If I had it to live over again, I wouldn't want it no other way. I wouldn't want it no other way. I wouldn't understand it any other way.

LUTZ: Mmhmm. When did you retire?

VILLANO: I retired in '71.

LUTZ: Uh huh. Are you glad you retired? Or do you miss it.

VILLANO: Yes, because I made up my mind, 'That's it! No more!' The kids kept me busy.

LUTZ: [laughter] What did you do to stay busy after you retired? I know, but tell the people.

VILLANO: I think I helped all the children

LUTZ: Uh huh.

VILLANO: With their homes…build their homes, whatever.

LUTZ: Yeah. You didn't really retire, did you? Just kinda switched over to not doing any work [inaudible]

VILLANO: [inaudible] Keep your hand occupied.

LUTZ: Yeah, of course. And you also started painting, right? And you started painting, too?

VILLANO: No, I didn't get no pension.

LUTZ: No, your painting. Your painting. You started painting.

VILLANO: I started painting…yeah, shortly after I retired. I had a place 01:50:00down in my basement, temporarily. You remember my basement.

LUTZ: Of course.

VILLANO: Fifteen feet by 25 feet long, or wide, whatever you want to call it. So, I used to do my painting down there. And I started painting . . . see…my mother had won a number set at a Foresters' meeting one time. She brought it home and thought give it to one of her great-grandchildren. I says, 'Mom, I'm not doing anything. Let me try it.' I started on this number set. It taught me how to mix colors. You know, and I finally got away from that, 01:51:00started to paint for myself. Sketching in rough first. That's what I always done when I was young. I always liked to sketch but I never did any painting then. I learned to love it. I learned to like it. You know, many times it was one, two, four o'clock in the morning and Nina used to say, 'Please, come up and go to bed. You got plenty of time.'

LUTZ: Let me ask you this, Grandpa. You were telling me how much you loved the labor movement. Why didn't you tell the…the people why you loved the labor movement? Why did you love the labor movement? Why was it so good?

VILLANO: The…the main reason was because they pulled us out of the sweatshops, 01:52:00first. Secondly, the benefits that they accumulated afterwards, that they…through their progressive way of moving towards, you know, the good of union members, has done more good to me than any other way of living. First, the Social Security. [inaudible] Through unionism, the Social Security come in, whether we pinpoint it and say whether it was Franklin D. Roosevelt or not. Still, without the union help, I don't think he would have ever agreed to it. Secondly, the pension fund was through them. And without that pension fund and 01:53:00Medicare and everything else, I would have been in some pickle when my wife got sick. Or for when anybody got sick. And if anybody don't have that kind of forethought, they better come out of it. Otherwise they'll go nuts when they get older. Even if you paid in…that you know that you paid into it…even if you paid into it and never derived, never received any of those benefits -- in other words, died before you…you could receive them – you know, [inaudible] you still benefit mankind in general. Without unionism, you still would be back in the sweatshop days. You can't tell me otherwise. Because human nature is 01:54:00full of greed. Human…I won't say nature itself, but there are people so full of greed that they will sweat your brows to the…to hell, you know, they sweat you dry, and all to gain a penny. Unionism, good unionism, -- you don't…you can't have that because there's too many people involved at the governing boards, the examining boards. You got about 72 members that you have to watch if they're stealing. You know what I mean?

LUTZ: Mmhmm.

VILLANO: If you got one person that's honest, you can always find out who the crooks are. Even if you were greedy yourself and tempted to…tempted to, um, steal, put your hand in that purse all the time, you say to yourself, 'No, there's too many eyes here.' You know what I mean?

LUTZ: Mmhmm.

VILLANO: Your temptation almost dissolves.

LUTZ: Yeah.

VILLANO: Without Unionism -- you take a string, and you can break it just in half, like that. But if you take a bunch of strings, you can't do that so easy. You have strength. So, unionism is the base of all strength. This, I 01:56:00truly believe, I really do.