James "Jimmy" Walker oral history interview, 2005-11-22

PHILIP LAPORTE: -- of labor oral history project that is produced by the Georgia State University Library, The Southern Labor Archives, under the direction of Lauren Kata, archivist for the Southern Labor Archives. My name is Philip Laporte. I am the Director of the Labor Studies Program at Georgia State University, and I will be conducting the interview today of Mr. Jimmy Walker. Mr. Walker is President Emeritus of the Service Employees International Union-National Conference of Firemen and Oilers. Mr. Walker, I'd like to start by just asking you a few questions about your background. Were you born here in the state of Georgia?

JAMES WALKER: I was, yes.

LAPORTE: And where were you born, Jimmy?

WALKER: Dahlonega, Georgia.

LAPORTE And your mother and father could you tell us a little bit about them?

WALKER: Well, they were farmers. And they were also born in Dahlonega, Georgia.

LAPORTE: And I understand that you began your working career at a young age, that you came to Atlanta to begin your working career. Is that correct?

WALKER: That's correct.

LAPORTE: And, Jimmy, can you tell us where you got your first job and where you signed up, and how that came to be?

WALKER: Well, I came to Atlanta in 1945, to the old Peachtree Arcade building, which is in this area, in the area of Georgia State University. And I joined the U.S. Maritime Service. I was sent to St. Petersburg, Florida for my training and I studied seamanship and basic fundamentals of Marine engineering. When I left 00:02:00St. Petersburg, Florida, I was sent to San Francisco, California and was assigned to the U.S. Army Transportation Service. I shipped out of Fort Mason, California for several trips. I made trips to the Pacific: Okinawa, Japan, Korea, and the Philippine Islands.

LAPORTE: Mmm Hmm.

WALKER: We carried troops and supplies for the army. I then transferred to New York, the Port of New York and sailed out of the Port of New York for the Army 00:03:00Transport also. And we made trips to Europe, carrying supplies and troops back and forth as needed for replacements and so forth. About that time I went back to school to Sheep's Head Bay, New York, I think that was 1947, I went back to Sheep's Head Bay and took courses to prepare myself for the marine engineer's license. It took quite a while because I was going to sea at the same time as I was taking correspondence courses at the facility at Sheep's Head Bay. When I finished, I took a test for third assistant engineer in 1951. The license was 00:04:00issued by the U.S Coast Guard, and it was for third assistant engineer, unlimited horse power. And then I went back to sea and served on various ships, one was the ship [the Carrol victory] bringing war dead back from Antwerp, Belgium, back to New York Port of embarkation. And then I sailed on other ships that we were carrying DP's, displaced persons, out of Russia and Europe. Used to, we would take those displaced persons down to Sydney, Australia for resettlement. Did that for several trips. Then during the Korean War, I went 00:05:00back to the Pacific

LAPROTE: Mmm Hmm.

WALKER: And stayed over there almost a year carrying troops into Japan and supplies into Korea, and I was involved in the Inchon invasion, got to see that, and--

LAPORTE: And your observations there and seeing the world with the U.S. army Transport Services, you also, as I understand it, got to see the invasion at Inchon under the command of General Douglas McArthur. Is that correct?

WALKER: That's correct.

LAPORTE: And you saw the U.S.S. Missouri in operation.

WALKER: Yes, shelling the coast before the invasion.

LAPORTE: And so you saw the world through your work training with the U.S. 00:06:00Maritime Service and then working with the U.S. Army Transport Service.

WALKER: That's correct.

LAPORTE: Could you describe for us some of the specific job duties you carried out, particularly as the third assistant engineer, and then some of those duties, when you earned your license with the unlimited horsepower designation?

WALKER: Well, as a watch engineer, I would be in charge of the watch in the engine room for my period of time, which is usually four hours on and eight hours off. We would, I would be in charge of the engine room that involved all the main propulsion, the boilers, and the main engines, all of the refrigeration equipment, the electrical equipment, and the electrical generators because we, of course, supplied our own electricity for the ship. And we also had to take 00:07:00care of all the water systems and the oil, keep the oil evenly distributed and make sure that we didn't have lists with the ship, and keep the ship trim. And we would do that, I would do that for an eight-hour period--a four-hour period, and be off for eight and go back. It's a constant shift arrangement.

LAPORTE: Mmm hmm. And what was the source of the fuel that powered the boat that you had to regulate and maintain?

WALKER: Well, we, before leaving port, we would refuel and take on all the fuel that we would need for the voyage. If possible, sometimes, we had to stop and get fuel on the way or on the way back, it depended on the length of the trip. But, we had fuel tanks lining each side of the ship, port and starboard, and in 00:08:00the bow and some in the stern to keep it balanced. Course we had to keep close tabs on the amount of fuel that was using, see how much we had left for the remainder of the trip, and so we kept, I had to keep record of that. But now, also, we had other engineers on board just like me, we had a chief engineer and a first assistant engineer, and together we kept it together.

LAPORTE: Was it primarily diesel fuel?

WALKER: No, it was fuel oil.

LAPORTE: Mmm hmm.

WALKER: Some was called as Bunker C. and others, NAVY special. It depended on where we picked it up.

LAPORTE: Mmm hmm.

WALKER: But with diesel, we did use diesel oil, but that was for cleaning purposes and minor things.

LAPORTE: I see. Right. And so you completed 13 years of service with U.S. Army Transport? Is that correct?

WALKER: No, It wasn't all Army Transport. Some of it was regular Merchant Marines. So it was split.

LAPORTE: All right. So, merchant marine, as well as U.S. Army Transport. And then you left and returned to Atlanta. What year was that?

WALKER: 1958.

LAPORTE: And so, what was the process, were you---I understand that you got married and wanted to come back from sea and settle down and so you returned to your home state, your home area. Is that correct?

WALKER: That's correct.

LAPORTE: Well, tell us a little bit about that transition, and coming back to the state of Georgia and where you looked for a job and the job that you got.

WALKER: Well, I was visiting Atlanta, and I seen that they were building a brewery, Carling Brewing Company over in Hapeville. I applied for the job as the 00:10:00operating engineer, and I was given the senior operating engineer's job at the brewery. And my duties there were similar, but not as extensive as shipboard, you know, equipment was concerned. We had boilers, we had pasteurizers, we had CO2 systems, Freon refrigeration systems. Mainly, the main coolant that we worked with at Carling was ammonia refrigeration. Ammonia.

LAPORTE: Ammonia.

WALKER: Yeah. NH3.

LAPORTE: I see.

WALKER: And I stayed there until--when I became employed with Carling, I found 00:11:00they had a union, and I decided to join the union, of course. And a short while after I joined I became shop steward.

LAPORTE: And what union was it?

WALKER: The International Brotherhood of Firemen and Oilers.

LAPORTE: I see. And did the International Brotherhood of Firemen and Oilers represent all of the production and maintenance employees at Carling Brewing or was it just one specific unit?

WALKER: The International Brotherhood of Firemen and Oilers represented the engineering department, which included the maintenance work. We also had a machinists' union and the brewery workers union at that time.

LAPORTE: Mmm hmm. And how many people were in the engineering department, including the maintenance personnel?

WALKER: Oh, it was only about 12.

LAPORTE: And so you became the shop steward. You were elected shop steward?

WALKER: Right.

LAPORTE: For the firemen and oilers, representing the 12 employees in that bargaining unit.

WALKER: Right. And I was also on the negotiating committee, along with the other two unions, negotiating agreements. So, we worked together.

LAPORTE: So, were there three contracts?

WALKER: Three contracts.

LAPORTE: And the three unions had a council of unions that they coordinated their bargaining with Carling Brewing?

WALKER: Sometimes, but not all the time.

LAPORTE: Mmm hmm.

WALKER: Whatever was in our best interest, of course, we did it that way.

LAPORTE: All right. And so, in 1958, you joined the union, and, shortly thereafter, you were elected as steward and then you served on the Negotiating Committee and the Council of Unions. How long did you work at Carling Brewing in Hapeville?

WALKER: Let's see. I left in 1971.

LAPORTE: Mmm hmm.

WALKER: The reason I left was because I was elected business agent of Local 288 00:13:00of the International Brotherhood of Firemen and oilers.

LAPORTE: And in that job, as business agent for Local 288, what were your job responsibilities?

WALKER: Well, I had an office in downtown Atlanta at the Hartford building, on Edgewood Avenue, and I was responsible for 15 contracts, covering 900 members.

LAPORTE: And who were some of the companies that you had contracts with?

WALKER: The largest one was, well at that time it was named Warren Sherer, it was over on--in this general area, I don't know [inaudible]. We had about four, five hundred members there, and there were that many in that bargaining unit. 00:14:00Not all of them were in the union, of course. And then we also had Carling--

LAPORTE: Well, Warren Sherer, what did they do there?

WALKER: They manufactured refrigeration equipment for the grocery people.

LAPORTE: Mmm hmm.

WALKER: Kroger and Winn Dixie. Most all of them used that equipment.

LAPORTE: Mmm hmm.

WALKER: It was later bought out by Kaiser Warren, they call it Kaiser now. Another company I had was Kearney National out in Tucker, Georgia it was an electrical company, manufactured electrical parts for the industry.

LAPORTE: Okay.

WALKER: We had a chemical company, several chemical companies: Dettlebach, 00:15:00Seitzinger, Wyndotte Chemical Company.

LAPORTE: And so you had 15 contracts, and you were responsible as business agent for negotiating the contract and administering the contracts?

WALKER: That's correct. Yes.

LAPORTE: So, you primarily were the servicing agent. And can you tell us about any of the negotiations that stand out in your mind when you were business agent for local 288?

WALKER: (laughter) Yeah, they were all hard.

LAPORTE: (laughter)

WALKER: Well, we had one strike that comes to mind. That was at Warren Sherer. We had reached agreement, and then we had interference from outside sources, by 00:16:00a group called the October league. They were trying to take over local unions, and they were trying to take over the Firemen and Oilers Local 288. And so, we thought we had the contract settled, but it went back out on the street and that lasted about two, three weeks, and it was a little violent. We had a few incidents where the police were involved and all that. The Federal Mediation Conciliation Service was very helpful. We appealed directly to Bill Usery for assistance-- the International did, from Washington. And he provided us with a good agent: Bob Baker was his name. And we finally got it resolved and moved on. But that's the one that comes to mind. Another tough negotiation, was 00:17:00International Bakerage. I had that plant organized, that plant out in Forest Park. They hired local police to harass the pickets, and so we finally resolved that one. Another one that comes to mind, one of the most violent I guess you'd say, was with Our Way Company. They made refrigerator-- overhauled refrigeration equipment, they were located over behind Georgia Baptist Hospital. They had five hundred employees. As--when I started the organizing campaign, we had trouble from the start: you know, firing, wholesale firing [inaudible]. Ford, Bill Ford was their attorney, and, but we won the election, and we started negotiating the 00:18:00contract, we got a contract, but they wouldn't give us a check off. So, we struck, held a strike to get the check off and that lasted several weeks. Then the company closed down and moved to Tucker, Georgia, and we continued after them. But, we were never successful in getting the check off. And once you don't have the check off, you don't have too much because you'll lose your members eventually. That's the one that comes to mind as being the toughest. Kearney National and some of those others we had, you know, shut down briefly, but we were, we had pretty good relations with the rest of the companies.

LAPORTE: Mmm hmm.

WALKER: Monarch Wine Company was one of the best.

LAPORTE: Mmm hmm. Well, Carling Brewing, there is word that has been handed down through the years that management at Carling Brewing depended upon your ability to mediate, motivate, and inspire workers to ensure that they were performing their job, performing it well, that you held workers up to a high standard to ensure that they were performing the jobs they were supposed to, and management would contact you and rely upon you to ensure that things were getting done. Can you confirm that and speak a little bit about it and your role there at Carling Brewing?

WALKER: Well, we did have a good relation with Carling Brewing Company. The 00:20:00General Manager of Carling Brewing Company was General Bowling. In the course of conversation when I first started to work there, I discovered that he was on a ship that I was on that came back from Europe. It was called the General Patch. And so he trusted me because of that, I guess. I don't know, but we always tried to do the right thing. We demanded respect and good wages and good working conditions, but at the same time, I felt that we were supposed to respond in kind and he recognized that, and we didn't have too many problems with General Bowling. In fact, he would bring some of the soldiers over from Fort Mac [McPherson] and take them on tours, and, of course, the contract for the beer at 00:21:00Fort Mac was largely Carling Brewing made. So we tried, and we did a good job, I think, from both sides, because of the fact that General Bowling was a real decent person.

LAPORTE: Mmm hmm.

WALKER: Easy to deal with. If he had someone that didn't follow our company policy the way he seen it, and that meant fair play for all the employees, he would take care of it. So, that's why I respected him.

LAPORTE: Mmm hmm. And so, you had been employed there for some 13 years, and then you were the business agent administering, negotiating that contract after that.

WALKER: Right.

LAPORTE: So, how long was your relationship with the Carling Brewing Company?

WALKER: Well, you know, the Carling Brewing Company moved out of the Atlanta area after that, I believe they left around '74. I'm not quite sure.

LAPORTE: Mmm hmm. So, the better part of 16 years.

WALKER: Mmm Hmm.

LAPORTE: Yeah. So, how long did you remain in the position as business agent for the local union?

WALKER: Oh, let's see. I have to think...of course when I was business agent, handling the contracts and the negotiations and all the business part of the local, I also became involved in organizing.

LAPORTE: Mmm hmm.

WALKER: I started organizing campaigns. In 1972, I organized the Monarch Wine Company here in Atlanta.

LAPORTE: And so, soon after taking the job as business agent, in 1971 you...

WALKER: Excuse me, I have that--- in 1972, I organized Clowes Ceramics Plant in Chattanooga, Tennessee.

LAPORTE: Mmm hmm.

WALKER: Then I organized Monarch Wine Company in 1973. Clowes manufactured electrical equipment--televisions and various electrical equipment. Of course later, something was invented to take the place of ceramics, so that eliminated that plant. But, getting back to your question, I'm sorry--

LAPORTE: Well, let's talk about a little bit about your career in organizing. 00:24:001972, you had success organizing Clowes Ceramics, 1973 Monarch Wine Company. Can you tell us a little bit more about your efforts in organizing in this area of Atlanta and North Georgia?

WALKER: Well, in March of 1973, the International Union promoted me to International representative, and at the same time we were able to hire a business agent for Local 288 that helped organize and helped with some of the service work. The next campaign I was involved in was at the Swirl Craft Company in Atlanta, Georgia. That was in April, 1975 (break in tape) the campaign was 00:25:00successful. The company committed a lot of unfair practices during the campaign, and I presented the case after filing the charges and pursued the case through the Labor Board and was successful. Seventeen employees that had been dismissed were reinstated with back pay. And then I signed a three-year agreement with them, covering 115 bargaining unit employees. In 1976, I won four elections. The first election was Colony Distilleries Incorporated, that was a new distillery in Atlanta that produced vodka and gin. The second election was with Chemical Sealing Corporation of Tucker, Georgia. They made sealing products for the automotive industry, as well as caulking tape for all types of industries. Then 00:26:00the third election in '76 was at the Hartford Building in Atlanta on Edgewood Avenue, that was the building where I had my office. I didn't stay very long after that. (laughter)

LAPORTE: And who did you organize there at the Hartford Building?

WALKER: All the maintenance and the housekeeping employees.

LAPORTE: Okay.

WALKER: The Fourth election was the one that I mentioned earlier. That was in 1976, that was Our way incorporated. Course we had charges, hearings, strikes and everything else there, but I mentioned that earlier. Then in 1977, I won an election at International Bakerage Company in Atlanta. I Negotiated a three-year agreement for 60 employees, following a five-week strike. In 1977, I was 00:27:00certified as bargaining agent at Pillow Tech Company after an NLRB election. That covered 150 bargaining unit employees. Then in 1977, I was appointed to the position of International Vice President by the International Union and stayed in the same area doing basically the same job.

LAPORTE: But do you think that your success between 1973 and 1977 in organizing more workers led to your promotion from International Representative to International Vice President?

WALKER: Oh definitely. I found that that was the way to get ahead, was through organizing. Of course, that was for the benefit of the Local. And I failed to mention I also had a local in Griffin, Georgia, Local 286.

LAPORTE: Well--

WALKER: Ohio Brass Company. 236 employees there.

LAPORTE: Did you service Local 286, Ohio Brass Company, as part of your job as the International Rep?

WALKER: Yes.

LAPORTE: Yeah. All right. And so, now in 1977, you're promoted to International Vice President of the Firemen and Oilers Union.

WALKER: Yeah.

LAPORTE: And did -- you said that you were--

WALKER: That covered the whole southeast, you know, including Florida, Georgia, North Carolina had a plant, South Carolina we had [inaudible]

LAPORTE: Mmm hmm. All right. And so Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Tennessee?

WALKER: Tennessee. George Dickel.

LAPORTE: There's a theme here, Jimmy, which you seem to have great success at organizing companies that make liquor or beer. And so I don't know if you had inside, insight into those particular facilities --

WALKER: (laughter)

LAPORTE: -- but the record is clear that you had tremendous success in those facilities. So, you're now International Vice President. You're responsible for the southeastern states. In 1977, did the International Brotherhood of Firemen and Oilers begin to expand the scope of their organizing? Not only maintenance workers and industrial facilities, but did you begin to organize workers in different sectors of our economy?

WALKER: Well, it was just whoever I thought we could organize is the way I went about it. And also I left out Kentucky, I had Kentucky, I had three plants in Kentucky.

LAPORTE: Mmm Hmm

WALKER: Parker Seal Company that made o-rings for astronauts

LAPORTE: For the space shuttle and...?

WALKER: Yes, the space shuttle. And Gibson Card, yeah Gibson Card company. In 1979, the National Association of Government Employees Union raided our large local in Philadelphia. We represented all the non-instructional employees of the Philadelphia school district and that was local 1201. The International President assigned me to work on the campaign, along with other representatives, 00:31:00and we defeated NAGE soundly. We received over 70% of the vote, in an election that was conducted by the Pennsylvania Labor Relations Board. In that unit, we had 4600 members.

LAPORTE: So, Firemen and Oilers were now representing public sector employees in the state of Pennsylvania, employed by the city of Philadelphia.

WALKER: Right, and we also had the Scranton, Pennsylvania school system. But we were raided by NAGE, and we had to beat back the raid and were very successful in doing so.

LAPORTE: And did you represent or seek to organize other public employees in other states?

WALKER: Oh yeah. At that time, we had a lot of activity in Florida. In St. 00:32:00Petersburg, Florida, we represented all the city employees, and we represented the non-instructional school employees of Pinellas County. And we had a fairly large local over in Palm Beach County School employees.

LAPORTE: And were they bus drivers, cafeteria workers, custodial employees?

WALKER: All of them.

LAPORTE: All of those job titles?

WALKER: Yeah.

LAPORTE: All right. And so, successful primarily in Florida. Now, was there a public sector bargaining law in Florida that provided recognition rights and mandatory bargaining once the union had won a representative election? Could you speak to that a little bit?

WALKER: Yeah. They had an agency [Public Employees Relations Committee (PERC)] that handled all those matters. And, similar to organizing in any other sector, 00:33:00we would have to get the necessary signatures, and submit an application for an election, seeking representation rights. And so, not that much difference. We couldn't strike, of course. That was one of the rules, and we usually worked out the agreement. If we were unable to reach an agreement, we would call in a third party, you know, to help us in the mediation and see if we could get it resolved. So, we had very little trouble in Florida, we didn't have a lot.

LAPORTE: And was there an interest arbitration procedure if meditation wasn't successful, that the arbitrator would determine the terms and conditions?

WALKER: Yeah, the arbitration decision was final and binding.

LAPORTE: And so, you had the opportunity to organize public sector employees in 00:34:00Florida. Did you -- were you able to organize public sector workers, school district employees, etcetera in other states in the southeast?

WALKER: No, none other than Florida.

LAPORTE: Georgia does not have a public sector bargaining law. Unions that are here representing workers in the public sector are primarily lobbyists. So, was that your experience in the other states that you worked in? Tennessee, Kentucky, North Carolina, South Carolina?

WALKER: It's basically the same as Georgia. It was very difficult, and we didn't get good results. So, we just concentrated on Florida. We didn't [inaudible] the other southern states.

LAPORTE: Yeah, well [inaudible]. There is public sector bargaining for the 00:35:00teachers in Tennessee. But, as you say, you had a success in Florida and concentrated your sources there. Now, you're now an International Vice President for the Firemen and Oilers Union. You've had demonstrated success in organizing workers. It is now the mid-70s. Do the Firemen and Oilers continue to grow at this point?

WALKER: Yes. We were holding our own, gaining a few members. But because of the changes on the railroad, for example, they switched, you know it had been in progress for quite a while, but they completely eliminated steam engines by that time and they switched to diesel. So, that eliminated a lot of jobs and we had to organize just to maintain what we had. We was fairly successful in doing 00:36:00that. And of course they were combining jobs also during this period on the railroad, taking firemen, all their work and assigning it to electricians. You do that or to some other craft, the machinists. So, we had to organize in order to survive, but we didn't make a lot of progress but it looks like there was a lot of progress, which there were in the organizing field. Otherwise, we would have went down very rapidly, so we held our own. (break in tape)

LAPORTE: The change in the way work was done in the railroad industry. And one of the things that I think people would like to realize or understand is the work that was performed by Firemen and Oilers on the railroads and how that change affected jobs. Could you speak a little more about that?

WALKER: Well, a fireman on the railroad used to use a shovel, shovel coal into the boilers that creates the steam that runs the engine. When diesel engines came along and it required several, you know, employees to do that work [shovel coal] because its hard work and it needed more than one person. And when the diesel engine came along that eliminated the need for that, they just--so they'd eliminate like 3 or 4 jobs [inaudible] when they switched over to diesel. And all the railroad were doing that as quickly as possible. So that's the way we lost a lot and then the railroads started tightening the screws, and in some cases for good reason, they had more people than they really needed to perform 00:38:00the job but like a [inaudible] might be doing some of the electricians work. And the electricians complained about that, said "that's out work, keep away from it" and so we were eliminated from doing any more of that. At the same time, they would turn around and give our work to the electricians or to the machinists. They were thoroughly eliminating jobs. So, we were faced with a pretty trying time in trying to keep our members. So they eliminated quite a few. We dropped a large number of railroad. So, to make up for that, then we had to organize. That was what saved us up until that point was organizing in the public sector and the private industry, which was still fairly easy at that 00:39:00time. To me it seemed easy. I didn't see a lot of problems with it. The labor board was always the pain. They had given us hard times, you know, but you could work things out still, at that time, if you were persistent and kept going back. But, that was about the way it was in the 70s and 80s, just constant battle to keep your head above water.

LAPORTE: You've attributed your rise in the Firemen and Oilers organization from being a member, to being elected Steward, to being a business agent, to being an international representative to being a Vice President of the organization to your ability to organize workers. And you've said that you thought organizing 00:40:00was relatively easy. Well, Jimmy Walker, can you give us some insights as to what it was about you and your personality, and perhaps your ability to relate to working people that allowed you to achieve this success in organizing?

WALKER: Well, I approached it, organizing, in the same manner, to the employees--approached the employees in the same manner that I would have liked to be approached if they were trying to get me to join an organization. I was always well prepared in presenting my program to the non-union employees, showing the benefits of the union. And, to me, that is, that's easy to do. If you're working in a plant or for any employer, in my opinion, without a union, you don't have a say on the job, and you might be making good money, you might have good working conditions, but all that could be wiped out by a stroke of the 00:41:00pen or if a new boss comes in and says, "Well, I don't like you." You're out of there, you're gone. But with a union, you have that protection, and that's the way I always presented it to non-union people. You have to have a union, and I think unions are needed for balance. You know, you can't have it one way. I think we experienced that during the depression when all the money went to the corporations and the employees didn't make enough to purchase the product they were producing. So, I believe in the union, and I think in order to organize people and tell them about the union, you have to believe it yourself 100%, and I do. And that's why I think I was successful in that area because I didn't try 00:42:00to give them a snow job. I just told them the facts. And then told them how we did the work. When I had a union meeting, I would go through the procedures that I would take if they voted union, and that was to negotiate an agreement that they could live with, give them protection under the contract, and give them the right to file a grievance, which was the legal right by law, but a lot of them didn't know that, didn't realize. So, that's the way I approached it, and I think it was the successful way. I didn't go out and start a demonstration right away, passing out handbills and things at the worksite. I approached it differently. I made contacts with the key people working in the plant and then 00:43:00set up meetings and discussed unionism with them. And that was successful for me, a successful way to do it.

LAPORTE: So, you brought 13 years of experience working in the Merchant Marines, U.S. Army Transport. You had a license. You had technical skills in operating boilers and making sure propulsion systems remained on an even keel. Initially, you used that knowledge to relate to workers performing similar tasks and were able to organize those workers working in maintenance facilities, maintenance jobs. Then, as a business agent with the Firemen and Oilers, you expanded your organizing efforts to a variety of different employers. Do you think that your 00:44:00ability to relate to workers, to relate to people enabled you to have that success where you may not have had any direct experience in the industry that you were organizing workers in?

WALKER: Well, I would go back to my shipboard experiences. I had to work aboard ship with people from about every nation there is, you know. So I've learned to get along with people from different backgrounds than my own, you know. We had people that would be working like in the engine rooms in the stewards' department and the deck force and all of those different categories. And, I learned early on to get along with people. We just...well, I like people. I like to talk with them and find out what they're doing and their experiences, and how 00:45:00they did things in their countries. And I met with a lot of displaced persons who were going to Australia from Europe and talked with them about their plans and "why are you doing this." And, of course, they were seeking a better life. So, I picked up a lot of experience in my shipboard time. And also at Carling. We had different categories and I served on the different boards for different organizations, so I learned to mingle. And like I say, I loved the job, and I loved organizing and I loved the people, thought I was contributing something to working people as a whole. And...

LAPORTE: Well, one of your organizing efforts was in downtown Atlanta at a facility that welcomes people from every walk of life and all over in the 00:46:00hospitality industry and that's Hilton Hotel in downtown Atlanta. Can you tell us about your efforts and the attempts by the Firemen and Oilers to organize the Hilton Hotel?

WALKER: In March of 1980, well even before that, a couple of months before that, I met people at a café-- some of the employees from the Hilton at a little café next door to the Hilton. And they were talking about their work at the Hilton Hotel, and I overheard one of them talking about the refrigeration equipment that they used and the boiler equipment, heating systems, and so forth. So, I began a conversation with him, and of course I had knowledge of those different jobs that they were talking about. And through the course of 00:47:00conversation I asked if they had a union, and one person said, "No but we need one." (break in tape) So, they're in the hotel and we would meet like once a week and discuss the issues. They would tell me what was happening, what they thought was wrong, and why they would like a union. "What do you expect the union to do for you?" was my question to them, and so I seen that we could help them and get their affairs straightened out. I started the card signing after the committee, I got their cards signed. And I got the--after we got over 50% of the cards signed I petitioned for an election. I demanded recognition, of course it was denied, and then I petitioned NLRB for an election. And we had the election, I was successful in the campaign, we won it. I notified the hotel that 00:48:00I'd like to begin negotiations. But a lot of people said, "Oh, they'll never agree to negotiate a contract with you. You won an election, but you won't get a contract." Well, I met with the company and with my committee and we reached agreement. We got a two-year agreement with the hotel, and had fairly good relations with them. But following this election, people from housekeeping approached me. There was 185 employees in housekeeping -- and by the way, there was 30 to 40 employees in the engineering department. 185 in the housekeeping. They approached me and wanted to know if they could organize, so I said, "Sure." We went through the same procedure and had the election. We won the election and 00:49:00were certified as bargaining agent by the NLRB. The company appealed it to their attorney saying that that was an inappropriate unit because we should have included the other group, food and service workers, and they were successful in getting the certification set aside for the housekeeping. So while all of this was pending, I started an organizing drive with the food and beverage along with the housekeepers, and it went very well, and I'm sure we would have won, if the ballots were counted. However, the day of the election, we were supposed to count the ballots at 5:00, but five minutes til 5:00, a representative from the 00:50:00labor movement came in with a message from Curtis Mack, who was the NLRB Regional Director, to hold the ballots and not to count the ballots. And that was it, but the reason I knew we had it won is because the company had two observers, and they were both helping me with the campaign. And so when I saw them sitting over on the company side as the observers I realized, we had the thing won big time because they were happy and they had gotten a lot of cards signed for me. So, they didn't do a good job in selecting observers. Then, but they held it and we pursued that case for several months without results.

LAPORTE: Curtis Mack was the Regional Director for the National Labor Relations Board, Region 10 office here in Atlanta.

WALKER: That's correct. And he had received word from Washington to not count the ballots, and we didn't count them.

LAPORTE: Were the ballots ever counted?

WALKER: Never.

LAPORTE: Were the ballots ever revealed?

WALKER: Never. I can't understand what happened because I was told by the International, "Oh, don't worry about it. We've gone over to the AFL-CIO office in D.C., and their legal counsel assured us that it's going to be reversed and everything's going to work out fine." But it never did work out fine. Of course, at that time in the 80s, that's when the Reagan years began and things got tougher and tougher as we went along for the labor movement. So, I never did 00:52:00find the results. I never got the results.

LAPORTE: What was the rationale that was provided to you and the Firemen and Oilers international as to why the NLRB in Washington would order the Regional Director not to count the ballots in a representation election?

WALKER: They never gave an explanation. They just said it's pending and we'll keep you advised of what's happening.

LAPORTE: Well, that's one of the mysteries of history, of labor history, I guess, is the...

WALKER: And that was a total of 800 employees. We still have the engineering department.

LAPORTE: So, the Firemen and Oilers, now SEIU National Conference of Firemen and Oilers, still has a contract with the Hilton Hotel representing the employees in the engineering department.

WALKER: That's right.

LAPORTE: Now, I believe that the Hilton Hotel played another role in terms of the Democratic National Convention that was held in Atlanta in 1988. And what position did you hold at that time with the Firemen and Oilers?

WALKER: At the time, I was President, and I had my office in Washington, D.C. And we were having difficulty with the Hilton Hotel at that time. They were ignoring our contract.

LAPORTE: And what year did you become president of the --

WALKER: 1985. January 1985.

LAPORTE: All right. And so, this person who came and got a job at Carling 00:54:00Brewery when he came to Atlanta in 1958, by 1985, had gone all the way up the ladder to become International President of the Firemen and Oilers Union. And so you were president in 1988 when there was difficulty with the Hilton Hotel living up to the terms and conditions of the contract?

WALKER: That's correct.

LAPORTE: And you had negotiated that contract originally, hadn't you, Jimmy?

WALKER: Originally, Yes, I did.

LAPORTE: All right. And so, tell us about what was happening in 1988 when the Democrats were coming to hold their convention in Atlanta.

WALKER: I received a phone call from the chairman of the Democratic Party, which was Paul Kirk, and an assistant from South Carolina, Fowlers. And they wanted to 00:55:00have lunch with me, and at the luncheon they mentioned that they were having difficulty with the delegates from California and Louisiana because they didn't want to come to the Hilton Hotel because they understood that I was having labor problems there. And they were not going to use the hotel. And the problem was they had-- all the other hotels in the Atlanta area were booked. So, they had a real problem. And I realized that would be an opportunity for me to get the contract straightened out. So, they wanted me to say it was okay and to send a letter to the delegations from California and Louisiana that, to go ahead, that it was a very important event and just forget about my labor problem and all that, but I wouldn't do it. And then the next call I got was from the mayor. I 00:56:00guess the mayor was Andrew Young at the time?

LAPORTE: Mmm hmm. That's correct.

WALKER: And he tried to talk me into doing the same thing. But, I said, "Well, if I had a contract, I would find it very easy to do that because the president being Carter being from Georgia, you know I take pride in that and I would like to see everything going successful, but at the same time, my members in the hotel are suffering because they don't have a contract." So, well to make a long story short, we eventually worked all of that out. I came back to Atlanta, personally, and negotiated the agreement, got it updated and got a pretty good raise, and kept everything intact. And then I agreed that we didn't have a labor 00:57:00problem and the delegation from California and Louisiana. They said, "Okay, since there is no labor problem we're coming to Atlanta." And that's the way I got the contract cleaned up.

LAPORTE: And so, it was the efforts of the delegates to the democratic Convention in 1988 from the State of California and the State of Louisiana, who insisted that the Hilton Hotel pay attention to the needs of the union, the workers represented by the union, to update the agreement and engage in good faith negotiations, that ultimately led to your negotiating an up-to-date current agreement that is still in place at the Hilton Hotel.

WALKER: That's exactly what happened. In fact, those delegates from those two 00:58:00states stated that they would not use the Hilton Hotel if I said we had a labor problem, and I said we had a labor problem. So, they'd made that commitment. They would not use it. But, fortunately, everything worked out okay. We kept our contract, and they kept their commitment to the hotel and came as delegates, elected Jimmy Carter

LAPORTE: Of course 1988, democratic convention, the nominee was Michael Dukakis of Massachusetts. Carter of course elected in 1976. [break in audio] So, you 00:59:00mentioned the importance of the delegates from California and Louisiana, how you had officials, including the mayor of Atlanta, Andrew Young, the chairman of the Democratic National Committee, Paul Kirk, all calling you. Labor today is attempting to use community activists, the clergy, and customers to try to help in efforts to organize and negotiate fair wages and a good contract with employers. Can you comment on the role played by those delegates as customers that led to your getting a contract with the Hilton Hotel, and the importance of including community leaders, clergy, and other coalition members, to allow labor to achieve success today?

WALKER: Well, the delegates from California, Louisiana, by refusing to come to the Hilton Hotel had a very big impact on the outcome of getting a contract. They had stated that they would not use the facility. And the mayor of Atlanta getting involved in it had -- I'm sure it had a very positive effect with the management of the hotel. And he spoke to me several times about the problem we were having. And, without his help, I might not have been successful. And the community leaders that were involved in the Hilton organizing campaign originally, without their help, I probably couldn't have made it. But we had the Reverend Lowery and James Orange and several others, several civil rights 01:01:00leaders and activists involved in the campaign, and we would ask them to come to the meeting and address the people that were involved in organizing the union. And without their help, it would have been very difficult. So, I think it's really important to have their support. In campaigns today, we need more of that. preachers and priests. And I've had some of both: a priest helped me with a problem I was having with a packaging company here in Atlanta. A lot of people went to his church and I found that out, I asked him to talk to the people to make sure that they understand the true issues, not just what the company was saying, and they were good enough to do that. And also, I've had ministers to 01:02:00speak at some of my meetings. And I believe in that very firmly. I think it's absolutely necessary to get the community people involved, get their support, and to show them that you're doing the right thing trying to get the better condition and better wages for the working people. And once they realize that, I found that most of them aren't shy about speaking up and saying what they think. So, it is important.

LAPORTE: Yeah. All right. We're looking now towards some of the other organizing campaigns. You were president of an international union. You're looking at maintaining a level of membership. You've commented the Firemen and Oilers reached out to different sectors of the economy, the public sector employees. Can you tell us about some of the other organizing efforts that you engaged in?

WALKER: Well, in 1981 during the Hilton campaign and it was winding down, I started another organizing drive at Great Recipe Corporation in Atlanta. They had 275 bargaining unit employees, and I was successful in organizing that group, getting certified, and getting a contract. In June of 1981, at the international convention that was held in Miami, I was elected by the membership for a five-year term as vice president, and then the following summer, in 1982, I assisted our local 1227 in an organizing drive in the Palm Beach area. We filed a petition with the Florida public employees relations commission requesting an election, for 630 instructional aides and won that election by a 01:04:0012 to one margin. Then in November 1983, I started an organizing campaign at Almark Mills in Dawson, Georgia. Assisting me on that organizing drive was Ernest Webb, who was vice president of the Albany Labor Council at the time, and a person by the name of James Willoughby. He was part of the drive. Now during the campaign we had a lot of harsh words between the union and the company officials trying to get us arrested for being on company property and I always made a point to stay on this side of the telephone poles so I was safe, but there was a lot of animosity built up during the campaign. On, three days before 01:05:00the election we were holding an organizing meeting at the Elks club, it was a big block building out in a open field with a small hill above the building. And, let's see, we'd go into the front entrance, the front of the building, walk back, that was the, like a recreation area with pool tables and so forth, and we walked through another room and then go into the main room where the meeting is. And we had about I would say 350 at least, employees from Almark Mills at the meeting and we were talking about the union, had a little music, and kinda celebrating a little bit. And then suddenly, there's always a group that wants to harass you, and it wasn't that I were trying to start trouble or anything, I 01:06:00was trying to hear what they were saying. I have a little hearing problem sometimes. So me and Willoughby and another employee from the plant were walking towards the group to address them, answer their questions. And as we started walking towards them they said "no no no we don't want any trouble." And then suddenly bullets start [inaudible} it was 12 shots fired into the building, and some of it was aimed at the automobiles in front of the entrance, and at that time they had those little Pintos if you hit the gas tank they would explode. If they had done that, we would've been in terrible shape. I found out later they didn't have an exit door. I got the crowd calmed down, you know panic at first but, reassured them that those people had probably already left the area, and 01:07:00they stood by me and three days later we had the election and won by a big majority. We had representation rights for 385 employees after the finish and kept them for a lot of years. Eventually, just recently I think, the plant moved the operation to South American some place. But, we got them good wages, and after that surprisingly, we had a good relationship with the company.

LAPORTE: Even in the face of gunfire you still were able to organize workers in Albany, Georgia. [Dawson, Georgia]

WALKER: (laughter) Right, it was fun.

LAPORTE: Well, James Willoughby has been a leader in Albany, Georgia for many years and --

WALKER: He got shot by the way in the rear end. And the other guy that was on the other side of me, he got shot in the stomach and he was in intensive care 01:08:00for several days, but Willoughby stuck by me, he said, "Don't tell my wife, she won't let me get involved in any more organizing." (laughter)

LAPORTE: Well --

WALKER: But it turned out well; it's all well that ends well, I guess.

LAPORTE: Yes, yes. Well, you had these achievements in organizing, and you also participated as a representative on a number of boards, commissions, of councils, can you tell us a little bit about some of that service, as president of the Firemen and Oilers you also were a member of several other commissions.

WALKER: I was vice president of the Metal Trades Council, Food and Allied Service Trades, in RLEA Executive Department, Public Employees Department, the 01:09:00IUD [Industrial Union Department], and probably a couple of others, they don't come to mind at the moment.

LAPORTE: So the Metal Traders Council, where was that located, where did they meet and who did they represent, who made up that council?

WALKER: That was made up of several of the larger unions, like IBEW, the Boilermakers, the CNE's, and the sheet metal workers, Firemen and Oilers, the Painters and Allied Trades, operating engineers. And we would meet periodically, like once a month, in Washington DC to discuss the problems we were having in shipyards and things of that nature.

LAPORTE: And so it would be Newport News, Virginia would be one of the shipyards where the Building Trades Council would have the members...?

WALKER: Yes. And then one in Washington DC -- we had a small group there in 01:10:00Washington DC.

LAPORTE: You mentioned the railroad labor executive associate.

WALKER: Well, that was the one that all the rail unions were involved in, and of course we were very active in that one, we would try to settle problems that involved the industry, have meetings once a month, sometimes more often if necessary and...

LAPORTE: And that would consist of Brotherhood of locomotive engineers, the brotherhood of maintenance of way workers...

WALKER: The Boilermakers again, the IBEW, Machinists and all of the people who had members on the railroad. So we would resolve a lot of problems that way, and 01:11:00get our ducks in a row on how to approach negotiations in the future, and how to approach different things that came up in the interim between contracts.

LAPORTE: And you also were involved with some presidential deliberations, I understand that during the first Bush administration that you were invited to the White House to meet a special international guest, can you tell us something about that?

WALKER: Well, several of the international presidents attended the function at the White House, it was when Bush gave, President Bush gave Lech Walenza the Medal of Freedom, and we had a reception following that. And we all got to talk to someone that we had something in common with, which was Lech Walenza, the 01:12:00electrician from Poland, and he was there to thank us for the support that he'd received from the AFL-CIO, and his efforts to get solidarity and unions in -- Poland. And so Bush praised him very highly during the evening, and then we had a reception with the President and his wife. It was a very interesting evening, and the next day, after that meeting -- or shortly after that -- I think the next day, we had the AFL-CIO convention and President Bush was a guest, and I found out he had a sense of humor when he came to the convention. Lech Walenza was there and he'd received a thunderous ovation, you know, from the delegates and following him a little bit later, President Bush rose to speak, and he got a 01:13:00nice round of applause, but he made light of it. He said "I really appreciate being here, and I really appreciate the applause from that five group member there in the corner." (laughter) So, it went over well, he was well received after that. And so that was a very enjoyable experience that I had, and then I got to lead the [inaudible] delegation when we were bringing Lech Walenza into the hall, it was a very, very good occasion, I'll always remember it. And the occasion when I met President Clinton, that was when we were talking about NAFTA, and, of course, all the international unions at that time were opposed to it, including myself. I thought that we were going to be real successful in 01:14:00getting things reversed somewhat, but I found that that wasn't the way it was going to be. He was very nice and very diplomatic, the President I'm speaking of, Clinton, but the final word was "We've been together in a lot of issues, and I supported you in a lot of programs, but this is one thing that I can't do it." And that's about the way it went. And we kidded around with him somewhat and, you know, had our picture taken with him, and then we left, and then you know the rest of the story.

LAPORTE: Well, as I understand it Jimmy, all the international presidents were in the Oval Office, and the President came in and made his remarks, and then there was a receiving line on the way out, and the president was shaking hands 01:15:00with all the international presidents, and you had the occasion in which to make a comment to President Clinton on your way out. Could you set that scene for us and share what you said to the President?

WALKER: Well, he was talking before this, and then he asked me how I enjoyed the meeting, and I said, very, very well, I enjoyed it very well." And I said, "I found out one important thing, I found out who's the boss." (laughter) So he laughed at that, (laughter) of course, then he sent me an autographed picture. (laughter) Of him and Hillary.

LAPORTE: So the President enjoyed your confirming that he was in charge.

WALKER: (laughter) I'm sure he did. I'm sure he didn't have any doubts before that.

LAPORTE: So you, as President of the international, then your union, of course 01:16:00you've described it as struggling, there were changes going on in many of the industries that you represented workers, and you began exploring the future of the International Brotherhood of Firemen and Oilers and so by the mid 1980's the Firemen and Oilers had seen their membership level plateau, and then discussions began about the future of the Firemen and Oilers. Can you give us some insights there what those discussions were?

WALKER: Well, I realized that when I became president in 1985, but I seen the situation, observed it before I became president. We were organizing, working, trying our best to keep going, but we weren't making a lot of headway to be honest. So I brought it up at the international convention in 1986, at the time that I was elected president. I was appointed before that but I was elected in 01:17:00'86. I pointed out that I thought there was a need, maybe, to explore the possibilities of affiliating, or merging with other unions, and talked about the strength in numbers, and so forth. And the delegates agreed at this convention that I should do that and that I had the authority to proceed. So I started looking around, I first started with the smaller unions, and then after meeting with a lot of the smaller unions of the same size that we had, you know, in the 30,000 bracket, I realized that that wasn't the way to go because all we were doing would be just pulling each other down further, and if I was going to make a move it should be with a larger union. And so I started talking with larger 01:18:00unions, operating engineers, Boilermakers, IBEW, and the teamsters. I was interested in the teamsters because of the low dues structure, and they represented people all over the map, you know, in all categories similar to us on a much broader scale. And I had several negotiation sessions with Ron Carey when he was president of the teamsters. He had a representative named Vicky Saporta, her and Judith Scott (Judith Scott was the attorney, and you know the history of Judy Scott they wrote the book "Organizing and the Law." So after several meetings with them I personally didn't see anything wrong with the 01:19:00teamsters but at that time they'd been getting a lot of bad publicity, it was in the papers, you know, about their affiliations with the undesirables and all this stuff, and my membership became nervous, and the executive board said "Maybe we ought not to pursue this, maybe we ought to look at some other organization." So after realizing that it might not be successful I advised the teamsters that I was going to put it on hold for the time being, I didn't think we were making progress, and a lot of the questions that I asked had not been answered to the satisfaction of the members. So I ran into John Sweeny of SEIU, and we talked briefly, and he said well he would be interested in talking to me if I wanted to talk. So we arranged a meeting and I realized that would be a good fit, for the Firemen Oilers. I felt it would not be difficult to work out 01:20:00an agreement. So I met several times with John Sweeny and his assistant, Andrew Stern, and Andy was also the organizing director at that time. We had meetings in Atlanta, and we had meetings in Washington. And it just happened that Judith Scott, who had been with the teamsters when I was negotiating with them, had moved over to SEIU, so they already had some understanding of what I was looking for and what I thought the membership would accept. So we took it from there and we did work out a affiliation agreement, and in 1994 I notified the members that I had worked out the agreement, and the executive board approved it, and we were going to set a special convention to vote whether to affiliate with the SEIU, 01:21:00and of course we did, we had like 95% of the delegates vote for it. In my opinion, that was one of the best moves we ever made for the Firemen and Oilers, right away we had the backing of one of the largest unions in the AFL CIO, they were very helpful, we were involved in a campaign in Cooks Food in Kentucky which we would've-- I don't believe we would have won because the company was putting a lot of pressure and a lot of opposition from other organizations that felt that they should be the one organizing and not us. When the SEIU got involved things started turning around, and Sweeny agreed to bring a lot of the members, potential members, up to Washington and show them how to organize, 01:22:00spent a considerable amount of money. And that was the reason we won that thing eventually. Eventually, we got a good contract. And they had a big law firm, if we had questions in the past we got by, you we had a law firm that we would rely on, on a case by case basis, whereas the SEIU had eight or ten lawyers, if you had a questions "give me a call" they would give you the answer and in my opinion unions need this legal backup today, maybe I shouldn't go on record with this -- but in my opinion, if we'd had that kind of backing at the Atlanta Hilton Hotel we would have been representing the Hilton Hotel employees at this time. (laughter) So we gained and that was the best thing that has happened to Firemen and Oilers since 1898, in my opinion. It was very successful and very helpful. SEIU has a terrific organizing program, that if I had been younger I 01:23:00would've loved to get involved in, and they know how to do it. (laughter)

LAPORTE: So the --

WALKER: --How to get results, and so I think that was the most successful thing that I did as president of the Firemen and Oilers, was steering them in the right direction to get with a big organization like SEIU.

WALKER: (overlapping voices; inaudible) Today, even with the split, I regret that there's a split between the AFL CIO and other organizations, but I still feel that SEIU has got a lot of good ideas in that area of organizing. I think back and I wonder what would've happened to the Firemen and Oilers if I hadn't taken the problem and invested and moved, and if I'd just kept letting it 01:24:00go--they'd probably have been out of business by now, been out of existence. Especially with all this anti-union problems that we're facing today. So, sometimes that can work against your viewpoints and see that in some cases a little pressure should be applied and that each union should represent the craft and the people they're supposed to be representing because that is one of the problems in my opinion [inaudible] public employees, government employees, private sector, you know just so strung out that they just couldn't do anything but represent the people. And when you don't organize of course you're going to go out of business. So in some cases I think [inaudible] I think the AFL CIO 01:25:00should have put more pressure to some of these unions and said look, we'll take care of you but you're going to have to make some changes. And I think eventually that's how it's going to work out.

LAPORTE: The merger took place in 1994, the National Brotherhood of Firemen and Oilers became part of the Service Employees International Union, and today is known as the National Conference of Firemen and Oilers.

WALKER: That's correct. National Conference of Firemen and Oilers, well SEIU first, the SEIU-NFCO.

LAPORTE: And you personally negotiated the merger document that resulted in the Firemen and Oilers becoming part of SEIU directly with John Sweeny, it that correct?

WALKER: That's correct. John Sweeny would usually have people with him, and a 01:26:00lot of times I would have someone with me, but we negotiated face to face, yes.

LAPORTE: So, now, Jimmy, you've got to tell us, was John Sweeny a tough negotiator, or did you --- were you able to get a contract that was favorable to both sides, or how was that experience?

WALKER: He was very fair-minded, John Sweeny was a very fair-minded person, and a very likable person, I think everyone likes John Sweeny. And we hit it off right away, we didn't have any problems. Now when it became an issue that he couldn't give on he didn't hesitate to tell me right away: "Jimmy, I can't do this" and that was it. (laughter) But all in all, if you were patient he would give you basically what you wanted, if it was fair and reasonable of course, I mean he's a very skilled negotiator, and I'm sure he could probably have 01:27:00out-negotiated me if he had wanted to, but he wasn't the type of person that wanted to do that, he wanted to get it settled and he wanted us to be friends, He wanted to help the firemen and oilers and he did everything possible. And so did Stern, and so did [inaudible] was secretary treasurer, they were all very good, and Judith Scott, their law firm, their whole group. I don't see how you could refuse not to go with them once we set out with them and worked things out.

LAPORTE: So you've described probably the best thing that happened to the Firemen and Oilers since their founding in 1898 was your decision and leadership to have them merge with the Service Employees International Union. Now my question is how do you reconcile the base union principle of self-determination 01:28:00for workers with Andy Stern's efforts to make it mandatory that smaller international unions merge into larger unions that Andy Stern chooses for them to go in?

WALKER: Well, fortunately, we didn't have to face that issue because we negotiated the agreement by consent of the membership, and then it was voted on by the membership, by the delegates representing the membership, and so we never had to face that problem, but I could see some of Stern's ideas about -- suppose we represented--or you had a union represented all the transportation workers, 01:29:00it would be much simpler and more effective, in my opinion, if they concentrated just on that particular craft or group. And so there is a case where I agree with Andy Stern. Now, I don't know how it's going to work out with forcing them, but I think if the AFL- CIO will [inaudible] be a little bit more pushy I think they could make the smaller unions realize the necessity and the advantages of merging with larger unions, and concentrating on the areas of the workers they represent and the others. So, but, it was easy to show the workers "hey, we are broke almost, we got a little, but what's going to happen in the future?" We 01:30:00didn't know, we joined an organization with unlimited funds, almost, and organizers all over the place, attorneys to represent you in legal proceedings, and I can't see why anyone would want to make that change. It was tough for me, I was the International president, I wanted to keep my position, but it wasn't to be that way, and I realized that when I made the decision to merge. I stayed with the Firemen and Oilers division, until I retired in '98, and I was also on the executive board of the SEIU, and on the pension, I was a trustee with the pension funds for the employees. So, uh, I think the smaller unions could be convinced if they were approached probably and a little bit more forcefully. 01:31:00Because no one wants to give up their empire. And say [inaudible] It's pretty hard to do, I learned from experience. But you have to do what you have to do to take care of your membership. And the executive board went along with me, I had a lot of support from firemen and oiler executive board, so we didn't have any dissent or dissentions from any of those people. It went real smooth.

LAPORTE: And then what year did you take emeritus status as president?

WALKER: 1998. January 1st, 1998. The executive board of the National Conference of Firemen and Oilers gave me that honor as president emeritus, a lifetime 01:32:00member. I still attend a lot of the meetings and visit the SEIU headquarters occasionally, and sometimes I see Andrew Stern when he visits the executive board of the Firemen Oilers, so I still keep in touch. I hope to continue.

LAPORTE: And when did you decided to leave Washington DC and return to your hometown of Dahlonega, Georgia?

WALKER: Well, when I retired in 1998, I wanted to come back to Dahlonega; see what was going on up there, it's a nice little town. My wife was from New York we had three sons, and they all lived in Georgia. One is an IBEW electrician, and the other one is on the Railroad, locomotive engineers-- no UTU. And of 01:33:00course Wade, he was with Food and Commercial workers for a period of time. And they were all located here, so I decided to come back to Georgia, and I enjoy it. I love my state, so very happy, very happy. Of course, I hang around with Phil Laporte (laughter) National Labor College, trying to get a degree, and I