Mary Lynn Walker oral history interview, 2005-01-27

LAUREN KATA: Good morning. It's Thursday, January 27, 2005. My name is Lauren Kata. I'm here conducting an oral history interview with Mary Lynn Walker for the Voices of Labor Oral History Project for Georgia State University. And, Mary Lynn? Hello?

MARY LYNN WALKER: Good morning.

KATA: Can you introduce yourself for us?

WALKER: Yes, I will. I'm Mary Lynn Walker. I am a member of the American Federation of Government Employees, and I have been a member for many, many years. And we probably will get to that before it's over. But it's...this is about me and what I did in the 30 plus years that I worked for the union itself.

KATA: And we are here at the IBEW building, 501 Pulliam Street in Atlanta, GA. I'm conducting the interview, and I just wanted to start off by thanking you for participating in this.

WALKER: Certainly. It's my pleasure.

KATA: Can you start by talking about when and where you were born and a little bit of your family background?

WALKER: I was born on a farm in Fayette County, Georgia, in a little place called Brooks. And that was June the 2nd, 1937, which was a very rough time for not only people in Fayette County, but in the South, it was very rough during those years. It was the end of the recession and...the problems that people had with money, and the farm was the place to be because you had food, you had everything that you needed to survive. The people in the towns did not, and it was very rough. And we had to help those that lived in town that would come to our farm and get food. I remember those days, and it was very rough, but I had 00:02:00many siblings that--we had a wonderful time. My father and my mother were very loving and caring and my father taught us that we needed to get an education in order to go anywhere in life, so they made sure that we went to school every day and then what work that we could do on the farm after we got home, that's when we did that.

KATA: What were your parents' names?

WALKER: My dad's was Columbus Gordon Morris, and my mother was Emma Wore Morris and...that was my father's second wife because his first wife passed away, and they had had five children, and he and my mother had ten. And I am the first 00:03:00girl. I'm number six in my mother's ten, and I'm the first girl, so I'm, I'm kind of spoiled. A little. But a lot of the work fell on me because I was the first girl, you know. I had, uh, five brothers older than me, and two of those were killed in wars, um, World War II and Korea, so other than those two and the first five, all the rest of us are alive and well and still very good friends, and we call each other every day and make sure that everyone is OK. And we have a lot of family get-togethers that, that is very good for not only the people that lived back then and were born back then, but it is also good for the young ones coming up to see that. And we make sure that our young ones, uh, who are 00:04:00older now, their young ones continue this ritual that we have of loving and c aring for your family.

KATA: And you spend your childhood growing up on the farm?

WALKER: On the farm, in Fayette County, Georgia.

KATA: Can you talk a little bit about farm, farm work and that experience?

WALKER: Why sure. We had, uh...we truck-farmed, I guess you could say. And then we did cotton and corn and, um, most of my brothers would do the heavy work like the plowing and gathering--we helped to gather, but--the crops--but, um, the heavy work like moving it from the truck--I mean the wagons--to the bins in the barns, uh, that was their job to do, you know. And the girls had to help in the house, so, you know, that was, uh, that was just something we did. We did a lot 00:05:00of canning. We made our own winter crop of food in the summertime. When the crops came in we did a lot of canning and preparing the food for the winter.

KATA: For example, what would you, what would you be canning?

WALKER: Well, we canned, uh...we canned sausage. Ribs. We canned all vegetables that you could name. We canned those. Those that, the crops that would be in bins and kept either in pits outside covered with straw or hay or something, like potatoes and turnips and things like that. That...you know, we canned everything else. But we put away, in those pits, where we...uh, put them away 00:06:00for the winter. We put a lot of effort in there, so we would have potatoes of every kind that we needed. We not only did cotton and corn, um, but we did watermelons and we did things to take to the market or sell, for those to take to the market. We did some truck farming, this is what they call truck farming. Back then. And then we also had our gardens so that we could pick peas and things like that on the farm and keep it for ourselves for the winter.

KATA: So any of that, do you still do any of that type of thing today?

WALKER: Yes, I do. Once you learn to do that, and you want to save your crop--I don't like, uh...throwing food away. So when I grow food, and I still grow it. My garden is still there and I still have the real desire to can my fruits and 00:07:00vegetables that are left over, and certainly I do a lot of that. I don't like frozen foods that much. There are some frozen foods that, you know, that are good, but the canning is much better, it tastes better, and it's more wonderful. And I, I like to do that.

KATA: Is that farm, I mean, is that farm still there?

WALKER: The farm's--no, they're broken up and sold for building houses on. And it's gone.

KATA: Right.

WALKER: But I have 15 acres that I live on, and I, I have, uh, a lot of wildlife, and I love my wildlife. I have chickens. I don't have any other animals on the farm. Yet. No telling what I'm liable to do.

KATA: OK. Well, you had a work experience working on the farm, but when you 00:08:00were in your later years, what was your first work experience outside of that?

WALKER: My first, uh, real job--well, I did get paid for picking cotton, you know, when I was about eight years old. 50 cents a--

KATA: Can you talk about that a little bit?

WALKER: 50 cents a week! I was a little girl. But I could pick a lot of cotton, you know? KATA: Did everyone in your family do that?

WALKER: Oh, yeah. We did a lot. I picked cotton, I did everything that you do on a farm. We didn't have tractors, and if you saw a tractor then, it was an oddity, you know. We did have a, a, car in the '40s, but--about '48. '46, '48, we had a car. And, and we could get into town to buy our...groceries or whatever we needed, like coffee or sugar or something like that, which wasn't often. But we didn't have to ride in the wagon. So, you know, uh...it was very, 00:09:00um....very difficult to come home every day and either pick cotton or gather the corn off the stalks and get the fodder for the animals on the farm, you know. We had to make sure that the animals were fed, so we not only had to save food for us, but we had to save food for the animals, too, for the winter. So, you know, we were all very busy. How we did it and went to school and maintained a good grade average...you know, it was a--it was a miracle.

KATA: Where did you go to school?

WALKER: I went to school at Fayette County High School. And uh, then we moved into Fairburn, Georgia, and, into the city a little bit. On the edges of it. We didn't really move into the city. We don't like the city. But, I went to 00:10:00Campbell High School then, and then I, I finished my last year of high school at Smith-Hughes Vocational School.

KATA: OK.

WALKER: So, that--I finished my last year there. So my education is sparse because I have no degree from college, even though I been to college, even though I've taken Spanish in college. I probably have enough college, uh, from all around the country from being busy working, and not being able to afford college because, back then, you didn't get much money, and you certainly couldn't afford to pay for college. And my father had all those boys, and if he could have afforded college, he would have put them through first. So, you know, that was--it was just difficult. So a lot of my college is gotten from colleges around the country from Washington, DC, Pennsylvania, and other parts of the 00:11:00country that--and Maryland, and Virginia--that, uh, if I put it all together, I could probably get a degree.

KATA: A degree or two.

WALKER: Or two. Yeah, but, uh, I haven't done that because I have never needed it. I studied law. I was a magistrate in the courts of Virginia and I went to the...I had to go to the law schools to study criminal law for a number of years, so you know that, that probably helped me too.

KATA: My goodness.

WALKER: It probably did help me.

KATA: Why did you finish your last year of high school at the Smith Vocational, Smith-Hughes Vocational School?

WALKER: Uh, because I got married.

KATA: OK.

WALKER: And uh, you know, when you get married, they don't allow you to go to 00:12:00school anymore. They didn't back then. And you couldn't go to school and finish school. So I had to go to Smith-Hughes.

KATA: And what year was that?

WALKER: Jesus. '55.

KATA: '55.

WALKER: Yeah.

KATA: How did you first get involved with the Labor Movement?

WALKER: Actually, I worked at the Atlanta Army Depot.

KATA: When did you start working there?

WALKER: The latter part of the '60s. Right? And I got involved in the union there, because of a problem that started there with the way men talked to women. I didn't like it and I didn't have to put up with that from my father, or my brothers, or anybody else, so it was something new to me when they'd start yelling at you and tell you that you were stupid and all of this. And I was working with a group of girls, and we were--ladies. Some of them were older. And, um, you know, I just didn't appreciate the way that the men talked to--the 00:13:00bosses, they were all men--and I didn't appreciate the way they talked to us, so I stood up in the middle of the floor and told them not to talk to me that way. So--

KATA: Was this just during a regular work day that this happened?

WALKER: Yeah. Oh, it happened every day. I just kind of got tired of it. I wasn't used to it.

KATA: And how did they react?

WALKER: The women?

KATA: Both.

WALKER: The boss was flabbergasted. Though, the women were, um, still shy and didn't want to say anything. So I had to take it myself. But I didn't take it very long, because I went to the, to the uh...commanding officer of depot, and I told him that I didn't appreciate it. And that, this is the way it occurred. Well, we never, we never had anybody talk to us that way again. Hah.

KATA: So it wasn't like there was a formal grievance process or anything.

WALKER: Didn't have to be. I made the noise--I made enough noise that it worked 00:14:00that time.

KATA: What type of work were you doing when you started working?

WALKER: The only work you could get. Clerical.

KATA: That's right. OK.

WALKER: Uh, they wouldn't promote women into jobs because they saved those jobs for men who, who, as they said, were heads of household. And they needed it worse than women did. What they didn't ask you was, were you head of your own household?

KATA: Right.

WALKER: And you didn't talk about it, because it was a no-no to talk about it. You were a bad girl if you were divorced, you know. You were nothing, back then in the South, if you were divorced. I mean, this come from the churches, and it came from everyplace. I think all the women thought that you were out after another man or something. Theirs particularly. But, and you know, it was very hard for women who were divorced.

KATA: Were there other women in that you worked with, who had that kind of background, or different from what the society expected?

WALKER: If there were, they didn't tell it.

KATA: Yeah, OK.

WALKER: Um, so--and I didn't pry. I'm not one of those that...I just listen. I don't pry, I listen. And, and that helped me through the years.

KATA: So would you say then that your first experience with, I guess labor relations, was about women's rights?

WALKER: Exactly. And, and, and it was a large portion of my formative years in the union, you know, itself. In the union movement, because the only way that I could get anything, get...a job that meant anything, that would pay anything, was when I went to work for the union.

KATA: And when did you go to work for the union?

WALKER: 1968.

KATA: And before that...let's just go from the Atlanta Army Depot. That was mid '60s you said?

WALKER: Latter part of '60 on through, until, in 1968 I went to Washington, DC to work for the union.

KATA: OK.

WALKER: I was promised a job in labor relations, as a labor relations specialist, and when I got there, the Director of that, uh, division within the union, did not want a woman in there. So I didn't, I didn't get that job. I, I--they put me up as a secretary to uh...some of the other specialists in there who were men. Um, and uh, I told them that I didn't want that job. So the National Vice President from the 14th District would come down to the office, 00:17:00and one day he asked me if I wanted a job as a National Representative. That was in 1969. The first part of '69. (inaudible).

KATA: That was Ralph Feiser?

WALKER: Feiser. He was a very progressive National Vice President. He had a black National Representative, and he had, had hired other ethnic, uh, National Reps, and he wanted a female. So I was it. And I enjoyed it very much.

KATA: Well I definitely want to talk about that, but lets...can we step back a little bit and talk more about your experience between the working at the Atlanta Army Depot and then the National Office.

WALKER: OK. I can tell you that. At the time that I went--within the local, 00:18:00local 81 at the Depot--

KATA: So that's local--AFGE Local 81.

WALKER: That's the--yeah. Local 81. And I'm still a member of that local, by the way, after all these years. Anyway, I started doing a lot of the work of writing the newsletter, I did representing employees on the Depot, and then I belonged--we belonged to the Greater Atlanta Council of Locals, which was in existence then, and all the locals would come together and get what we could from each other regarding the interpretation and application of all the rules and regulations of the federal government, where it pertained to federal employees. And well, even pertaining to federal employees, you had to go beyond that in order to really get what you could get for federal employees. So it 00:19:00wasn't just rules and regulations of federal employees, it was certainly rules and regulations that affected a lot of private individuals out here in the workplace, you know. So, uh--because the laws that affected them did not affect the federal employees unless, you know, like the Taft-Hartley Act and things like that, certainly did affect federal employees, and the Social Security Act, all of that. But, it was different. The application was different for federal employees than it was for the private sector individuals. So, you had to really know the difference. Well, it was a very complicated, very intense and complicated matter to do all of this, and you had to be very, very smart and 00:20:00astute to really know the rules and regulations, so, um, I used to study those, rather...I poured, and poured, and poured over those things, many, many nights, you know. Trying to find out how it applied to the federal employees.

KATA: Did the union or the Depot, did they provide any training for you at all?

WALKER: Yes, they did, as a matter of fact. The Depot itself gave me a lot supervisory training, but it was not labor relations.

KATA: Right.

WALKER: Nothing in labor relations. I don't think they wanted you to know, at that time. But subsequent to the '60s and early '70s, um, they did, uh, come out and do a lot of training in labor relations. But it was employee relations at that time. It didn't become labor relations until about 1978. Truly labor 00:21:00relations. But, it was at that time that, um, I was in the Greater Atlanta Council. Well, because of my representing other employees, locals wanted me to help them to represent their employees. Because, you know, officers then, they didn't know the rules and regulations, no more than anybody else.

KATA: And at that time, was, was the Executive Order, was that, I mean was that the major set of regulations? President Kennedy's Executive Order.

WALKER: President Kennedy's Executive Order gave us the right to bargain. First time--it's, uh, 10-988, that's the number of it, I can tell you right now. I remember that, and I'll never forget it. I was working when it came out. We had nothing before then. We couldn't negotiate anything. Except an agreement to--on 00:22:00a grievance or something. I mean, that was our negotiations, um...

KATA: Were you working at the Army Depot when that--

WALKER: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I was at the Depot when it, it came out. And actually, one of the first contracts under that order, I negotiated.

KATA: Can you talk about that?

WALKER: Well, you know, it's been so long ago now. There was very little that you could negotiate. I mean, they limited your ability to negotiate. You could not negotiate anything beyond what the law allowed. So they were wondering why in the world would you want to negotiate. But it was easy to know why to negotiate because the rules could be negotiated in a very readable manner, and a manner where it made it much easier to get from one point to another in the process. At that time, and still today, if you do it under the...uh, proceedings 00:23:00of the government. The process to do that is not only exceedingly long, but it is so difficult to really read those rules and interpret those rules and where you have to go next and what do you have to do, and how you have to do it to get there. And that was our complication in the first place. So we didn't like that, so when we negotiated, a grievance procedure was one of the best things to negotiate, even though we couldn't have collective--I mean arbitration, binding arbitration, we could have, uh, advisory arbitration, which was really, uh, nothing, but it was a stepping stone to get where we wanted to go in binding arbitration. So a lot of people didn't understand why we had to go through this procedure. But those procedures must have been applied first in order to get 00:24:00where you wanted to go. And we wanted binding arbitration. So we had to go through that advisory part. But 10-988 really gave us the opportunity to do a lot of things that we had never done before, and then we could sit and agree on something that might occur. During the year they would make new laws. Well, when they made a new law, that part of your agreement was out of affect, you know? It was no longer in affect, so you couldn't use that. And so you had to go negotiate, and the evolution of negotiations in the federal government was about every day, every week, because there was changes in everything before the Executive Order. And then after the Executive Order, it was the same thing, but it was better. I mean, it was easier to do it after the Executive Order came out. And then, until 1978, when we got our Civil Service Reform. And then, at 00:25:00that time, then the laws couldn't change for a contract that was in full force and effect. Unless, you know--and then they have all those unlesses, you know. Codicils that they put into the acts that, certainly, uh, would change the context of the agreements. But it was, it, it was really fun doing that, but after I got involved with the Greater Atlanta Council--getting back on that--and how I got involved into the National Office, um, a lot of those went to the National Office and, and then they got--my name got up there, you know, in the National Office. And then they wanted me to come to work up there. And so the National President had come down to visit our Local a couple of years before I went, and he wanted to know if I wanted to come to work up there.

KATA: That was John Griner?

WALKER: John Griner. And, uh, I told him no. That I, I was happy where I was. And, uh, two years later, he asked me again. And so I changed my mind and, uh, by that time, I knew I wasn't going anywhere or getting any more money. Getting a job. And so I went to Washington, DC, where I could. And that's...I was the head of my household. So, certainly, I went to Washington, DC, and that's how I got involved with meeting Ralph Feiser, the National Vice President in that district, and I went to work up there as a National Representative in 1969.

KATA: At that time, what was your involvement at the district level? Because...is--the way that AFGE...you talked about the Greater Atlanta Council and then going to the National. But was there any kind of work in the District office?'

WALKER: I never did any work within the district except around locals in, in the greater Atlanta area. Um, I, I helped every local that I could, and I was very busy all the time, you know? Um, I didn't get involved with the district, although I knew the National Vice President, who was Dennis Garrison. I knew all the National Reps because they would come out to--every once in a while. They didn't have to come very much anymore because I did it, you know? Uh, so, but they would come to see us and visit us. And, uh, I didn't really get involved in a district office. I would go to the meetings of course, and do the votings or whatever if I was a delegate. I would do votings of the local. But other than that, I wasn't really involved in the district work until they wanted me to do 00:28:00some training for the locals, and I did do that.

KATA: Training on getting to understand the different rules and regulations?

WALKER: Right.

KATA: And was that going around a lot to military bases?

WALKER: Yes.

KATA: What was that, how was that experience?

WALKER: Well, you know, there again, most of the people that were involved were men. The experience was, uh, I was young, I was young. I was not ugly, either. So, uh, we had to put up with a lot of that. But you just smile and go on. And uh, and after a while, they didn't bother you anymore. You know, you didn't, you didn't banter words with them and tell them that you didn't appreciate that, uh, 00:29:00statement that you were not, you know, you were not involved in extra-curricular activities, and that you were--as you were. You were--I was busy. And I was concentrating on my work. I was, I had a, I had a prize at the end of my tunnel, and I was working for that. So, um...you know, yes, the military bases were, uh...a lot of the military officers were condescending, smart, and thought that they were God, some of them. Um, once in a while you would meet one that was very nice. Um...particularly if you met a captain or a colonel or somebody like that. They were nicer than the generals, and they were certainly nicer than the lieutenants and, uh, the majors and others that were coming up not so very nice. 00:30:00They were trying to make their point, in, uh, promotions in the military. So, you know, you had to put up with a lot of that. You had to put up with a lot of, of disdain from the men. Because they didn't like to see women around the table, and I'm the only one there, you know. So you had to put up with a lot of a, almost hatred looks.

KATA: How were you able to put up with it?

WALKER: Smile. Laugh. To yourself.

KATA: I imagine it could have been really frustrating.

WALKER: It could have been if I was a different person. But I wasn't. I grew up with a lot of brothers and, uh, and I knew how men were. So. (laughter). It 00:31:00didn't bother me. It was just funny to me. So in later years, I took care of that.

KATA: Was there anyone that you felt was kind of like a mentor to you...while you were in the Atlanta Council doing this work?

WALKER: Actually, no. It was, I was out there alone. I wish that I had had someone. There was one National Representative that...when I did see him, he was very, uh, good, he was very kind, uh, and he was very, uh, patient with my learning different things about how it worked. And, uh, he was, I guess you could say, the mentor. But as far as the work was concerned, I had to do it all 00:32:00myself. And then, other people started asking me for that help. So, um, across the years, I've been mentors to even some of our National Presidents.

KATA: Interesting. Are you good? Can you keep going?

WALKER: Sure.

KATA: OK, so let's talk more about you joining the National Staff in Washington, DC.

WALKER: Well, in 1968, I did go up to Washington, DC, and I accepted a job as a--I thought I was going to be a labor relations specialist or employee relations specialist at that time. In the federal government, you didn't talk about labor. You talked about employee relations. Um, and uh, when I got there, I...the Director didn't really want a woman there, so he--I took a job--because I had already moved up there--I, I did take the job as a secretary. I was very 00:33:00unhappy about it, and I went to Mr. Griner, and, uh, I told him so. I was not happy. So, um, he wanted me to come to work in there. For him. And I said, doing what? And he said, well, um, I would like for you to be in the, in the legislative department. And, um, that was not what I wanted to do.

KATA: Why not?

WALKER: Um, in the legislative department, most of everything that you wanted was walking all over Capitol Hill visiting everyone. And I did not think that I would be happy seeing all these condescending National Senators and, uh, Congressmen. And I had met enough of them to know that that's the way they were. So I didn't feel like, at that time in my life that I wanted to do that. And I 00:34:00wanted to be a National Rep because you did the full gamut of employee relations or labor relations. And I could foresee over the horizon the interest in where we were going from employee relations into labor relations and that's what we were working for. And I could see that, and I wanted to be in on that, in the labor relations part in the federal government. And I subsequently was. So that was marvelous to me. But I did a lot of different things. Being a National Rep in the 14th District, I, um, negotiated some of the first contracts for most of the agencies and did the first arbitration case, which was advisory arbitration. And, uh, I did a lot of first things. I negotiated a training program for 00:35:00workers in DC--they were under the federal government at that time. And, uh, I negotiated for them, um...it was a training program where they could come out of being a laborer to go into a mechanic's field, carpenter's field, this and that. And that was for the federal--that was for the district government employees. And, uh, I, I did that. And I thought that that was one, one of the most wonderful things that I had ever done for the laborers, because most of them were all, um, all black. You know? And I didn't thing that they should remain as laborers. They could, they should be given the opportunity, because some of them 00:36:00already knew carpentry, mechanics. They knew a lot of things, so there were things that they could do, and they should be given the opportunity, and that was in--way back in the early '70s that I did that. And, uh, it was very...you know, that was one of my greatest accomplishments, that I thought, in district government.

KATA: And was this something that you negotiated as part of the agreements? Or was it just something that the union provided?

WALKER: It was something that, actually, it wasn't the union that...well, it was the union's idea. Because I went out to, uh, some of the offices, climbing up and down in sewers, and, and uh, getting under trucks and looking and seeing what, uh, you know, that they had to do. Uh, getting involved in this and that and climbing up on scaffolding, and everything else, you know. Working heavy 00:37:00equipment. I wanted them to know that I knew about as much as they did about these jobs. So I wanted to make sure that I knew what I was talking about when I went to the table. And I had my eye on that table when I was going around and doing this. Now I had my eye on that table. And getting those jobs open for everyone that came into the labor's pool. And...so that's what I did. And when we went to the table, I could negotiate about all the jobs and what they could do in the beginning, of what they could do in the training part of the program, and, you know, on the job training. So...in steps of that on the job training and for them to get promoted, and then apprentice, and then going into the full-fledged journeyman grade, um, grades, I wanted to make sure that that's 00:38:00what we did. So, I had to, as I said, climb down in sewers and do a lot of things. Which I did. But they didn't think that a woman would do that. So I just put on my coveralls and climbed right up in there. It was fun.

KATA: And some of these workers then did move on to different positions?

WALKER: Indeed, they did. Almost all of the laborers that were in that that were not too old. Some of those that were ready to retire did not want to do that because it would take too much of their time and they didn't, they wouldn't use it for the government, so they wouldn't do it. But the younger ones did, and that was good. Some of those became very good union leaders, too, after that. It was good.

KATA: Can you talk about getting your start with AFGE during the Nixon administration? And AFGE's relationship with that administration a little bit? Or what was your role in--how did you feel about that?

WALKER: Well, in the first place, we supported Nixon. The union did. We supported him because he'd made a lot of promises to the workers of America. And it wasn't necessarily just federal employees, but he had, he had a lot to do with federal employees. Because after the Kennedy administration, Nixon certainly thought the world of federal employees. And they did an excellent job, 00:40:00and he was happy with the Executive Order, and he came out and, and, and uh, I think it was 11491, I think that he, uh, signed that Executive Order. And a few others giving us a little bit more bargaining rights, um, and negotiating rights for, uh, appeals system. And, uh, for the wage grade employees. So, you know, Nixon was a friend of the working people of America. Whatever else you can say about him, he was really good for the federal employees and also the workers of America. And he showed it by helping them in the workplace. And, um, that year, the first year he was in office, the union got an invitation to go to the White House and celebrate Labor Day. It was the only time that we've ever done that. 00:41:00And that was my first visit to the White House as an invited guest. As a Labor person. And I thought that that was right special because...I, you know, they'd never been so treated before.

KATA: And did you have a good time?

WALKER: I enjoyed it all. Even though the Secret Service people were all under the benches and the tiers where we were sitting, you know. And everything. I enjoyed it immensely.

KATA: It was just AFGE that was invited?

WALKER: No, the, the AFL-CIO Headquarters got their invitations, you know, and they, a lot of the other union people went, too. But I was privileged to have that because I had worked with a lot of people on different things in the 00:42:00government by that time, you know. Being the only woman. And they wanted to have some show up there for a little diversity, you know. So that's how I got it. It wasn't--it certainly wasn't, I don't know...I would say, it was because I was a woman.

KATA: Would you say that that worked to your advantage?

WALKER: Indeed it did. Because, you know, you could go in and, every once in a while, I would say a little naughty word, maybe hell or damn or something, in our--my negotiations, and the guys, uh, they were not used to, uh, any women at the bargaining table. But after I got through talking, and I did talk a lot, after I finished my spiels on everything, they decide they didn't want to listen to me anymore and they would agree to do this and do that, and you know, I think that that was probably a part of it. But it worked out fine. I, I wasn't stupid. 00:43:00I knew how it would work when I first presented everything, you know. And, uh, some of the guys were smart enough to realize it, and some of them weren't.

KATA: Well, you also knew your stuff.

WALKER: Yeah, that's true.

KATA: I mean, you said earlier you would stay up nights pouring over all the regulations.

WALKER: Pouring, and pouring, and pouring. My mother got really flabbergasted with me occasionally, but I did it anyway, and burned the midnight oil, so to speak.

KATA: Yeah.

WALKER: A lot of nights.

KATA: Was it challenging for you to balance your personal life with this job working for the National Staff?

WALKER: Yes. I always remembered that what time that I could spend on my personal life had to be very quality, good, time. And, um, a part of that was maintaining a household, and taking care of my two children. Who came first? My 00:44:00children came first, and I always made sure that they did what they needed to do for school, always made sure that if they wanted to do--go to a movie, or they wanted to do this, or we'd go to the park. We always did that first. And I didn't care if their clothes were on the floor, I didn't care if the dishes were not washed at that moment. But of course, they came back and helped me, you know. But they were first. And I always maintained that.

KATA: Well, let's take a break.

[Silence] 00:45:00[Silence]

WALKER: All right.

KATA: [When you were in] DC, working for AFGE. You talked about how you handled 00:47:00an advisory arbitration case; I want to make sure that we don't skip over that. Can you tell us that story?

WALKER: Well the, um, Labor Department at that time, Local 12, had um, case that they wanted to take to arbitration and it dealt with an ac -- actual interpretation and application of the rules and regulations concerning, uh, promotions in government. And, uh --

KATA: When you say Labor Department, the employees within the Labor Department --

WALKER: Correct.

KATA: Part of Local 12.

WALKER: Correct. Um, I don't know. But I think it was all the locals out in the field other than Local 12 out of the national office -- headquarters. Yeah I 00:48:00think it was, uh, Field Labor Council rather than Local 12. Anyway, um, it dealt with, um, that issue of promotion, and, um, since I was the national representative in that district, uh, representing, uh, the area, I, um, it was left up to me to do, uh, the arbitration, uh -- actually I was assigned to it by my national vice-president -- to do the arbitration. So I did. And, um, one of the attorneys from the national office, who was a new attorney in the field, he, uh -- field of labor relations -- he came and, uh, assisted me and, um, well we did, uh, our, uh, case and, um, we won. The arbitrator gave us a good decision. 00:49:00But since it was advisory, the, uh, Secretary of Labor did not accept that opinion. So we were back where we started from. But we knew that we had that, um -- that that would be part of our, um, progress. And we did not know if any of the agencies would (accepted by the re-arbitration?) even though we won it. But you could always take it to court, if you wanted to. If the issue was strong enough, you would -- we would -- have. But this issue was not that, uh, strong... to take it there. It was strong enough to go to arbitration, but within the workplace it might been devastating to have, uh, a court opinion and rule. So we did not want to do that.

KATA: The Secretary of Labor at that time was...

WALKER: It was the one before Ray Marshall. Do you know Ray Marshall? [W.J.Usery, Jr.?]

WALKER: See, I know all these people. (laughter) Can't -- uh, I can't remember -- who was it? Assistant Secretary of Labor is the one that I knew more --

KATA: Right.

WALKER: It was a man, I can tell you that. It wasn't -- certainly wasn't a woman. (laughter) Um, anyway. It was -- it was in that early field. '70. '71, '70.

KATA: OK. OK.

WALKER: And, uh, from there, we just went ahead and did, um, a lot of advisory arbitration as well. Because we, uh, did that, we were able to, uh, convince, uh, the lawmakers that we needed binding arbitration because we didn't get, uh -- advisory arbitration was costly to the union and, uh, they would take us to 00:51:00that nth degree -- the agencies would -- just to make us, uh, have to spend money.

KATA: Right.

WALKER: And they had bottomless pits when, um, we had, you know -- the Labor Movement is not, uh, that well funded. So -- and certainly not in the federal sector, where you have the right to work no matter where you are. What state you're in. So. Now, if you are, um, uh -- now that they're contracting out and we have private sector, we can do that. Where the right to work state (inaudible) with the contractors, not then --

KATA: Was contracting out much of an issue when, uh, when you were --

WALKER: Contracting out has always been an issue. Closing down depots or closing, um, military installations, closing offices. It's always been -- that issue's always been there, but not so -- not so prevalent as it is in the last 00:52:004 years and -- and, uh, you know, you wanna -- I have my opinions about this administration. Um, they want to get rid of the unions; they say they have no place in the workplace. And if you will listen to the people that are in authority in Washington, D.C., that's all you hear. And they're certainly going to get after you about, um, you know, being a union person. I mean, uh, a lot of people won't even tell you they belong to the union. I mean, I -- I don't know why. Because I'm proud. As a matter of fact, on my checkbook, I have -- I'm a union member. And that bill's paid by a union member. So, you ought to be proud of being a union member, because that's where the working folk come in. And if you work for a living, and I know 99% do, um, you ought to 00:53:00be proud to be a union member. I am. I'll be a union member 'til I die. Should be.

KATA: So you enjoyed that experience? The arbitration experience?

WALKER: Oh I enjoyed it very much. It was my first, uh, arbitration case, but I had held a lot of hearings before, um, in the process of, uh, the government rules and regulations of the hearings -- you know, hearings and appeals that you could have in the government. Uh, even though it was such a complicated bru-ha-ha, uh, gobble-de-gook, uh, you know, people that wrote those things, uh, had to, uh, impress their bosses that they had the knowledge of the written word, even though it didn't mean anything, you know? You had to take out half 00:54:00of the stuff in order to get to where you were going. Beause it didn't mean anything. But it -- it would -- it would confuse you if you led, uh, if you were those easily led to confusion with the written word. And, so you had to, uh, mark out those words that didn't mean anything and go on.

KATA: Mmm hmm.

WALKER: And then you could -- you could do that. Um, a lot of people never got to that point, because they were so, uh, engrained in the federal government's writings and everything that, you know, it had to be done this way and it has to be written this way or they won't accept it. Well that's a lot of bologna. All you have to do is write something the working man can understand.

KATA: Straightforward.

WALKER: Straightforward. You have to get up and speak to them that way, too. Uh, you know, you don't get up there and speak all these little, uh, words like Spiro Agnew did about "effete", uh, people, you know? How -- um, snobs and all of that, you know? What does "effete" mean? You have to carry a dictionary 00:55:00with you when you go to a federal government meeting so you can figure out all that gobble-de-goop before you can get to where you're going. If you believe in all that stuff, but I never do. Get rid of it and then you can find out where you're going.

KATA: So you almost need to bring, like, a translator with you?

WALKER: Just about, everywhere you go. I mean, the management had that translated, let me tell you. All of them did. So you had to know how to do -- you had to argue with the translator. 'No, that's not what it means.' It doesn't mean a damn thing, you know? And I didn't hesitate to tell them. You tell me what it means. What does it have to do with this? You know, and you explain it to your boss, what it has to do with this, and if you can explain it, then maybe I will try to consider what you're saying. (Most times I couldn't. So. I had fun -- being the only female, really, you, um -- it was 00:56:00really, uh -- I could put up with a lot of remarks, smart remarks. I have dumb blondes where -- you know, I was a blonde then -- and, uh, how smart, uh, they thought they were and... oh,just all these catty remarks and I just sat there and giggled to myself, you know? It was not, uh, who the dumb blonde was, but what the dumb blonde was going to do.

KATA: Are you talking about the men that you were negotiating with or the men at the union?

WALKER: Men I was negotiating with. Men at -- the men at the union, at first, um, even my bosses told me that the men out there wouldn't accept me. Particularly the wage-grade employees. And that they wouldn't accept a woman coming out there and representing them because, uh, they didn't know what they were talking about. Ha ha. Well --

KATA: But would the wage-grade employees be -- like, the laborers who you said you provided training for --

WALKER: And mechanics and carpenters and --

KATA: So, "blue collar workers?"

WALKER: Blue collar. Mmm hmm. And there were a lot of them back then, you know? Now they're almost all contracted out and gone. But there were a lot of them then. Um, as a matter of fact, the majority of our, uh, union members then were blue collar. The, uh, class act employees with general schedules, as they called them in the government, they, um, they thought that they were smarter than anybody else -- a lot of them did -- and they didn't need, uh, union representation. And 'til they got in the workplace an engrained in the workplace for a while, and then they found out they did. Because if you negotiate anything for them --because they didn't have any recognition -- they were upset about that. So they would help you be getting recognition so they 00:58:00could negotiate their own contract. That's how that really started working (inaudible) for those employees.

KATA: Mmm hmm. Was your home still in Georgia at that time, or were you --?

WALKER: I moved to, to Virginia. I lived in Virginia. And, uh, it was -- I represented Lorton Reformatory, that big jail that was always a mess. That was my local--Lord, have mercy.

KATA: Why, "Lord have mercy?"

WALKER: Uh, that was one of the worst experiences of my life, I suppose. The DC jail, the Women's Detention Center, and, um, Lorton, it was just, uh, you could escape. You could walk out the wire anytime you wanted to, except for maximum security. And if you went in maximum security, it was just awful. Um, it was some of the most atrocious things I've ever seen -- was the D.C. Jail and 00:59:00the Reformatory and um, the Women's Detention Center. It's under the federal jurisdiction now, so it's better. They no longer have the Reformatory out there because, uh, they moved all of the inmates to federal prisons around the country.

KATA: And who were you representing there?

WALKER: Local 1550 AFGE Them, which were the correctional offices and all the employees of them. All the employees. We had them all.

KATA: Male and female?

WALKER: Mmm hmm. There were very few female offices -- they have the female institution -- but they still had to have men up there in positions of, of, uh, security. Well they men in the positions of security. A woman could only go so 01:00:00far. You know, in the beginning. Same way with me. I was a female. I didn't make as much money as my, uh, male counterparts. At first. But I did later on. Because I did more work than the men did. And then, uh, everybody wanted Mary Lynn, so, you know, it was because I -- I was a woman, and women, I think, care more for the person instead of just the problem the person has. I cared for the person and I was always a mother-like, you know, in my feelings towards the people that I represented.

KATA: Mmm hmm.

WALKER: And I believed in them. Uh, I believed in them so much so that I would go to extra lengths to represent them, you know? As -- for example, getting a handwriting expert to make sure that that person that they've accused of writing threatening letters to their commanding officer, um, I got a handwriting expert to look at that -- to see that that woman did write it. And I told her, I said, 'If you did, I'm not representing you. But after this comes back, I'll believe you. But you've got to understand, I don't know what this person's going to say.' And, um, but they came back and said she didn't write it. And I went back to that commander and, uh, he then wanted me to help him find out who did it. I said, 'No. That's not my world. I'm not going to do that.' Because I proved that she didn't do it, because I wasn't going to prove that somebody else did it either, because I didn't know -- I 01:02:00wasn't going that extreme. Wasn't my job. But she was very grateful. She was the only female and they wouldn't let her out on the ships to do -- to take data. You know, you had to go collect data off the ships. And these employees, that's what they were doing. And this was in the early '70s, too. And, uh, she wasn't allowed to go aboard the ships to collect the data. Not only was she a female, but she was a black female. She could sit there in the office and write it all up and collect data that came into the office and do an analysis on it, but she couldn't go out on the ship. So, I told her commander that, uh, he was going to have a discrimination complaint. Because I was going to file it after I got through with this, and, um, by the time we got through with it, she was already promoted to a 14 and was, uh, assigned jobs to go to the ship to 01:03:00collect data. You know, so you do -- you don't ever threaten anybody that you're going to do something unless you know you're going to do it, then you can do it. Um, and management really came to understand me and, uh, I think that they respected me and my word other than that I was a union representative, you know. They uh, whenever they had some problems, sometimes they would call me up and say, 'I've got a problem. Can you come help me?' And, uh, if I decided that I wanted to, I would. If I decided that the local president could do it, I told them that they could do it. And I would talk to the local president. And the long-range affect of how this would affect the people, so. Those are the kind of working relationships that I have. You know? An admiral ran me out of 01:04:00his office one time, and, uh, I went back to my office and, uh, I got a call from my national president wanting to know what the hell I was doing. Uh, stirring up so much hate and discontent. And, um, so I told him the story and he laughed about it and he called the Pentagon back, and then I got a call from that admiral, and he said, uh, 'Can you meet me this afternoon?' I said -- I made him wait twenty minutes on the phone before I answered the phone. (laughter) Now that's nasty, ain't it? That I made him wait. Uh, I was busy. And after twenty minutes, I got on the phone, and uh, he said, 'Can you come back this afternoon?' I said, 'No. I can't. I don't have, uh, a way to get there today.' He said, 'Oh, I'll send a car for you.' Um, well I said, 'Well if you'll send a car, uh, just send the car on. I'll come.' So he sent the car for me and we sat down and we worked out every problem that 01:05:00we had there that I had -- this personnel officer's the one that took me in there to see him --I, I didn't ask to go in there; I didn't care whether I saw him or not. And then when I got in there, he said, 'Well I don't want to see you.' I said, 'Well I don't want to see you either; I didn't ask to. Goodbye.' So I walked out of the office. Well, then he called the Pentagon and the Pentagon called my national president and said that I was down there stirring up hate and discontent. So after that, we became very good friends and he would smoke my cigarettes and I would drink his coffee and we would settle the problems of the agency. And when he moved on to, uh, write (Pad Afro, with Afro Space?) to DOA, which, was, at that time, it was, um, some kind of something. It was moving household goods for soldiers and --

KATA: Oh, OK.

WALKER: -- other people come back -- uh, anywhere in the world. And that's what that was. But, anyway. He, uh, he would always ask the AFGE people up there if they had heard from me, they'd seen me, and was I doing all right. And that worked out fine.

KATA: What was his name?

WALKER: Admiral Martin, I'll never forget it. Then I went to the Pentagon one day and met with a general. Because he didn't know -- I signed my name, M.L. Walker, so I'd get my mail back -- 'Mr. Walker, right?' -- 'That's fine.' I didn't care. But I'd always say 'M.L. Walker,' because if you said Mary Lynn Walker, they didn't care whether they answered your correspondence or not. And for many years there, I put up with that crap, so I just decided I'd fix them with "M.L. Walker." So I did that, you know? So, um, that's the way I, I lived until they saw me. They didn't know who I was; they thought I was Mr. Walker, for example, at Andrews Air Force Base. I went 01:07:00to, um, a hearing. Um, they had an explosion at the jet fuel farm out there, and a tanker blew up and killed, uh, one of the airmen and almost killed the civilian that I was representing. And, uh, they charged the civilian and then they charged the major, they charged, uh, the sergeant, and on down the line of the military and they only charged one, uh, civilian, and I represented that civilian. So, we had a Board of Inquiry and, uh, this colonel who worked at the air force base -- I mean, he was assigned to the air force base -- he was head of the, uh, the board. And that Board of Inquiry was to find out what caused the 01:08:00explosion. So we -- I had already been out there on that farm and looked, and I'd already been through the whole thing, and uh, I knew pretty well what I was talking about. And I went to talk to some fire fighters and, uh, explosive technicians and all that. So I knew what I was talking about. But I went out there the first day to represent my person --

KATA: Mmm hmm.

WALKER: -- and, uh, this colonel was up there, he was just busy around, you know, trying to do this and do that. And he had put out, uh, water pitchers all across the podium up there and none out there for the people who were to represent the others, you know. Uh, the military on the other side and the civilians on this side. And, uh, the military attorney I knew already,because we had been, uh, collaborating on, on uh, the problem. You could do that then, you know. Even now, I guess you can. I know I would. I don't know about them. But 01:09:00um, anyway. He was up there, he said, um, 'Are you the secretary?' I said, 'No.' He said, 'Uh, well, um, are -- are you going to be the court reporter?' I said, 'Nope.' He said, 'Oh I know, you came in here to get water. OK.' So I said, 'You mean fill up the water pitchers?' He said, 'Yeah.' I said, 'OK.' So I went in there and got the water pitchers and I took them out there, outside. The secretary of the attorneys back there, she said, 'Give me those things.' So, I gave them to her. I said, 'Well, hell. He just said -- asked me if I came to fill up the water pitchers. I said oh, OK. So, I would do it.' Well, we -- the meeting was supposed to start at 10 o'clock. I was there, Mr. Frier, who I was representing, that got fried, literally, was sitting there, military was all over there, and the board was all 01:10:00up there. The court reporter was there. 10:30 comes by and he looks over to, uh, the attorney and he said, um, 'Is Mr. Walker going to come?' He said, 'Well, for your information, it's not Mr. Walker, it's Mrs. Walker, and she's sitting right there.' He never asked me if I was a representative. He didn't ask me who I was. And I didn't bother to tell the little smart-ass. (laughter) Excuse me. So, you know, it was those kind of things. And then, years later, I met him at the marshal service and um, I was going up there to have a meeting with the U.S. Marshal, and, um, some of the deputies in the union, and, um, here he comes ditty-bopping out, you know? He had gone to work -- he had gotten out of the military and gone to work for the Marshal service. Uh, and he 01:11:00stopped when he saw me, but he couldn't recognize where he had seen me before. But he knew that he had seen me before. So I said, 'Well how you doing, Colonel?' He said, 'Oh, I'm just doing fine, but you know, this union is just worrying me to death." He said "I wish they'd go away.' He said, 'What are you doing here?' I said, "I'm with the union.' (laughter) So he never learned anything, you know?

KATA: Some people never do.

WALKER: Never do learn. So, those are the kind of stories that I could tell you about. All -- over the years, you know? That happened to me when there were no women around except me. But after that, they saw that a woman could do something. Then, um, Mr. Feiser hired another female, Julie Herst. She came to work in our office. She was a female national rep.

KATA: And you're -- you're pointing to a picture of her that's in the government standard.

WALKER: Right.

KATA: OK.

WALKER: Then we hired quite a few women across the country, then.

KATA: And I had wanted to ask you about working with Ester Johnson, AFGE's National Secretary Treasurer. For you as a woman, was she a role model or – [could you] just even to talk about your relationship with her.

WALKER: She and I used to have a lot of discussions, probably meeting in the ladies' lounge probably the most that we ever had the opportunity. Everyone was so busy doing their thing that, you know, it's very difficult to have time to sit and talk unless you went to lunch or dinner. And, um, that was very difficult, because you were so busy at night doing other things for the locals that, uh, you know, it was very difficult. But, uh, for Ester, she was, um, she was one of those that took no crap off of anybody either. And, uh, she and I, 01:13:00um, had another friend who was Dorothy Dogan, who was head of the service department at AFGE, and she took no crap off of nobody either. Not even the national president, so Ester didn't, and I didn't, and Dorothy didn't, so, you know, we were, uh, kind of three peas in a pod. And we, uh, had a lot in common and we talked about a lot of that, um, at times. Uh, but Dorothy's job was so different from mine that we didn't cross paths in jobs. Ester's was certainly a lot different than mine, that we didn't cross paths in jobs, so it was um, chance meeting and chatting with each other that we did that. But we did that a lot over the years. And, uh, it was fun doing so. But I enjoyed Ester; 01:14:00she was, uh, she was right up my alley, and so was Dorothy, so. We got along real great, all three of us. It was really fun. But since we didn't do the same work, we -- they knew a bit about my work, I knew a bit about their work, but um, if they had any problems, we'd discuss it. If I had problems, we'd discuss it. But uh, as far as our work was concerned, we didn't -- we didn't have that much. And to tell you the truth, um, the -- I made my own decisions in my work, because most people didn't even know what you were doing out there. And how you were doing it and all of that. So if you found something that worked, it worked. I found something that worked. Worked good. For a long time.

KATA: And of course, this was the time that the, uh, the women's movement -- the second wave women's movement -- and the ERA movement was happening. How -- how did that affect you? Or did it?

WALKER: Well, I belong to, um, CLUW. I belong to a lot of the women's organizations. But as far as having time to participate in the organizational meetings, et cetera, I had no time to do that. Very little. Um, but if they had some meetings and things that needed, um, assistance, as far as the women's concerns were, then I certainly helped in that. But, um.

KATA: Can you think of an example?

WALKER: Well, we did a few marches in D.C. And I did do that. Um, we did a lot of legislative activity; I did do that. Uh, had a lot of teas with the women at 01:16:00-- in the legislative, uh, offices.

KATA: What was that like --?

WALKER: Bella Abzug. It was fun. We had our little garden teas to meet and see what we were going to do about the women's movement and things like that, and it was -- it was fun doing that, but, you know, I was so geared to, uh, my work, that idle chat was not something that I, uh, had patience for.

KATA: Mmm hmm.

WALKER: But I tolerated it, because I was sent there by my national president.

KATA: Mmm hmm.

WALKER: So I would have to give him a written report, so I had to sit there and tolerate it. I was not, um -- they didn't impress me a whole lot, so. It was very difficult to find somebody. When you get out there and you have to do your own work, and you find no one to help you. That you've got to squirm and you've got to do this yourself, you learn that it's very difficult for 01:17:00someone to impress you about what they might know.

KATA: Right.

WALKER: And, uh, I'm sorry that I got to that point, but because there were a lot of people -- that I am sure that if we had gotten involved in conversations about my work, that we could have, um -- I could have learned something. From them. But we never got there. Because they had a hard time talking with me, uh, about my work, because they thought that I was smarter than they were. While I thought they were smarter than I was. You know, and it was very difficult for them to do that. And if anybody needed to know anything, they called me, you know. So, uh, well, it got to be where a lot of them -- after that, they had to start learning all this stuff. And then when I went to work at the national 01:18:00office, rather than the district office -- the 14th district -- um, then there were smart people in there.

KATA: When did you do that? When did you move from working for Ralph Feiser to working for the national office?

WALKER: In 1976 I think. Uh, two years before the executive order--I helped write some of that and teach it after it was, uh, written.

KATA: Were -- um, with Carter being from Georgia, did you have any political affinities with that administration because of that? Other people have said that. That's why I ask.

WALKER: No. Wasn't because of that, because I've been involved with it before that.

KATA: Mmm hmm.

WALKER: So, once you're on that list, you know, you're listed. And I was, uh, and still am, um, a lobbyist. You know, a certified lobbyist. So I was then 01:19:00and when you are and your name is up there -- and everybody over in Congress knew who I was anyway -- so, you know, your name's there. And after it gets there, it stays there as long as the people stay in. Um, but time and people change. So, you know, when you get away from it, then you're no longer known there. And uh, sometimes I have to call somebody in Washington and, uh, talk with them, you know? But I know who to call now. I'm still the -- you don't call those that you knew then, but you talk to those -- some of those that you know now.

KATA: Mmm hmm. Well, so the -- let's go back to the executive order and -- it sounds really exciting that you were part of that. You were talking about Nixon's speech --

WALKER: Oh, yeah. The Wage-Grade bill.

KATA: Yeah, the Wage-Grade bill.

WALKER: I was a part of that and I did, uh -- I never went out on any of the 01:20:00wage surveys, because you couldn't do that. It had to be the local people who did that. You couldn't go out on the wage surveys and so after that, there was only meeting at, um, the federal pay council. Federal pay council. And I was not a member of that federal pay council. There was a guy that was appointed from the national office who, um, was, um, a guy, and he was -- um, he went over there and did that. They didn't have any women on the pay council for a long time.

KATA: Mmm hmm.

WALKER: So, you know, that was their thing. Unions had a hard time with women anyway, because the first time John Griner introduced me to George Meany, he wanted to know what I was doing in a job like that. When John told him I was the first one -- female -- he said, 'You ain't got none. None of the other unions got any.' And he said -- he asked me, he said, 'Well, what are you doing in a job like this?' I said, 'Same reason you are, I guess. To get 01:21:00paid. I need the work. And I'm not going to do clerical work, so. I like my job. And I'm good at it.' That's what I told him. He just laughed.

KATA: How -- How much interaction with the AFL-CIO did you have?

WALKER: At the headquarters level, quite a lot. I worked with, our national secretary treasurer in the AFL-CIO. I worked with him when he was doing the mine workers. And, on, uh, the Mine Safety Act. Him and some of his -- Mr. Griner assigned me to that with them over there. And then with the congressman Barney Frank was on it. And, uh, senators, you know? So, um, I worked with that whole group on the Mine Safety and that -- we had some people who were the safety 01:22:00inspectors and we did not want them to, um, uh, be at odds with our mine people and our mine workers. So, we worked together and that's how I got to know Trumka first. He doesn't remember that. He's gotten so many things and so much that he has to do, he doesn't remember all those and -- but my mind might wondering, but -- wandering, not wondering -- but I can remember everything that I've done and, uh, who I worked with and all of that. At times it comes back and times I don't even think about it.

KATA: Mmm hmm. That's fantastic.

WALKER: I've had a -- I have had a lot of memories in this union. A lot of work, and I probably killed myself working day and night for so many years that, 01:23:00um, I didn't have time for myself. But I had time for my children. And that was the important thing. And then all of the other people that I represented are the ones who were important to me.

KATA: Mmm hmm.

WALKER: Other than -- they were secondary. But it's been fun. I even got the award from the AFL-CIO. Labor leader of the year back in 2000. Was it 2000? 2001.

KATA: 2001?

WALKER: Yeah, something like that.

KATA: How did you feel about that?

WALKER: Well I knew that I had worked in the labor movement for many, many years, but I never knew that the AFL-CIO out of Washington -- other than Washington, D.C. --knew how much I worked with the AFL-CIO, um, for states all over the country. You know? Within. I never knew that they knew that here. But 01:24:00they did.

KATA: Did you have -- I mean, were you able to work with the AFL-CIO in Georgia at all?

WALKER: Mmm hmm. Oh, indeed. But --

KATA: In what ways?

WALKER: -- when I came back as the national vice-president for the district here, um, back in '99 or whatever year it was.

KATA: Well, let's go back and trace the move between working in the national office and then getting to national vice-president.

WALKER: I worked in the national office, um, 1976 I think I went there. Clyde Webber, who was the national president at that time, told me that he wanted me to move to the labor relations department, because we -- it was really building up, and we were having a lot of, uh, issues coming in, and we were working 01:25:00toward that, uh, Civil Service Reform Act.

KATA: Mmm hmm.

WALKER: And, uh, he wanted me to come over there and work. So I, uh, did; I went over there and worked for John Mulhulland, who was the director of that department, who was the smartest man in the world about federal labor relations. Uh, he was my boss. Um, and at that time, uh, after the Civil Service Act was signed into effect, and that was through Carter, the national president -- I mean, President Carter. Uh, after that, uh, it was fast-moving, because the federal labor relations authority was structured, the federal service impasse panel was structured, the appeals process through that was structured, um, and, um, case law was not established. So the object was for AFGE to get in a lot of 01:26:00the case law first. Because we were the ones who, uh, that really pushed that law and got that law and worked on that law, uh, in the beginning.

KATA: As opposed to...

WALKER: Other unions that represented federal employees.

KATA: Like NFFE?

WALKER: Like NFFE and NAGE and others. Now, the one union that we did work with was, uh, with the IRS. You know, whatever the name of that union is. Anyway, so I was on board during that process, and writing, uh, appeals on issues that were decided in the federal sector and I filed briefs and wrote briefs, uh, 01:27:00establishing precedent for, uh, a lot of the federal labor relations authority case law that issues today.

KATA: No kidding.

WALKER: And my name is in some of those books that were published by the FLRA.

KATA: But, is it M.L. Walker?

WALKER: No, it's Mary Lynn Walker. Mary L. Walker or something. (laughter) No, by that time, I had gotten through the -- the M.L.s. After a lot of women came aboard, then I took off my M.L. And put Mary Lynn. Um, but it was necessary to use M.L.

KATA: I've heard that before.

WALKER: And I, let me tell you. There was a lot of things it was necessary to do. Uh, back then, you know, you wore your suit and your nice little dress-up things, but when you went out into the areas where the wage-grade people worked, you wore your slacks. And, you know, you could climb up and down anything, you could move, and you could get under something, and uh, the guys didn't, you 01:28:00know, they didn't whistle at you or anything like that. They liked legs. So, you know, if you dressed appropriately, if you acted appropriately, uh, you were treated appropriately after a while. So, um, that was the way that I, went through all mine. Even though I had to giggle to myself a lot. You know? It was funny to me. I didn't -- I knew I was going to get somewhere with all this. And, uh, that was to, uh, help women along. But you were asking me a while ago about what did I do for the women? Well, you know, there were, at one time, nurses in all the agencies where they had little medical rooms and, and they hired nurses and, uh, they worked for all branches of government. Well their pay was so low that they never had nothing. I mean, they -- GS5, you know? Was their 01:29:00top grade. So, I had met with all of the nurses in Washington, D.C. at the Treasury Department one night, and my goodness, the newspaper people were there, and they, uh, they were talking about what were we going to do for the nurses? And I said, 'Well, tonight, we're going to gather information. Tomorrow morning, we're going to present this information, uh, to the government, that these people are seriously underpaid. You know, and they need money to work here.' Well I got them up to GS9, but then they went on to 12. But, you know, I got them up to GS9. From five to nine, hey, that's pretty darn good, right?

KATA: That is pretty good. (laughter)

WALKER: Yeah. I thought so at the time. And they were not unhappy. So, uh, it 01:30:00took a month or so, but we got it done. And then, uh, there was another incident that, uh -- not just those workers and the district government, but there were other incidents that occurred that, uh, we did things that were abnormal at the time, you know? They said it couldn't be done, but we did it anyway. And, uh, I thought that that was really great. And, uh, many many things that, uh, that I've done that -- that I'm very proud of doing for the people. Some of them may not even remember. By now they don't, because they've already retired. And the people coming along don't know what I had to do in order for them to -- I worked day and night, negotiating and everything else, to get this through. So, you know. They don't know that. It's gone. That history's gone. And 01:31:00people will say, 'Oh, you did that?' You know, I certainly did. Oh look. My name's in the book.

KATA: And this history right here that we're doing.

WALKER: Yeah. I don't know if they'll read it or not, but certainly, I had fun making history, and, um, it was, uh, trying at times; very trying. Because, uh, they didn't want to listen to women, and, um, I guess that's why I learned to talk so much. Is making sure that they were listening to me and not just humoring me for the benefit of themselves and certainly I wanted to benefit 01:32:00all of those people I was representing. It was very important to me.

KATA: This is a good time to stop, I think, and take a break.

KATA: This is tape 2, side 1 of our interview with Mary Lynn Walker on Thursday, January 27, 2005. Lauren Kata interviewing Mary Lynn Walker for the voices of labor oral history project in Atlanta, Georgia. OK. When we were getting the tape ready, you started talking about a story of an individual that you helped. That was a good story, so why don't we start.

WALKER: I was still a national representative then. I worked out in Hyattsville, Maryland in the 14th district office, and I received a telephone call from either the Coast Guard or a boat out in the ocean, the Atlantic Ocean, 01:33:00wanting me to represent a person down on Swan Island. And that if I could go to a ham radio operator and use the ham equipment to call him on Swan Island at a certain, on a frequency on a certain date. So my husband worked for the Federal Aviation Administration and his boss had a radio, so that radio, he had asked his boss if I could do that on that particular night and he said certainly. So we go to visit the boss and we get on the radio at the time and finally get this man off of Swan Island on the radio, ham radio, and talked to him about his 01:34:00problem. And while he relayed it to me, and the only way I could communicate with him was through boats that came up the Atlantic and it would give me a telephone call and a message that he had written or he would call me on the ham radio or I would call him on the frequency and at the time he asked me to call. So I did that, and I worked with him for about two months doing that, and I got him his request for a station change from Swan Island to Alaska. I don't know why he wanted to change, but I didn't ask him. It wasn't my, it wasn't my business.

KATA: It's just so amazing to me that, the variety in the different agencies, 01:35:00of the employees that you were working with and advocating for.

WALKER: Mmm hmm. We uh, you know, in Alabama, they have a local there that is uh, has people at Couer D'Alene Island way over in the Marshall Islands, you know, and Couer D'Alene is, well they're most all, with civilians and military people that work there. Certainly a U.S. owned island, but we represented the people there, and now today, you can call them by telephone. You can call Swan Island by telephone. But back then you couldn't. So the only way of communicating was through that ham radio. And it's just um, we represented people all over the world, and they could have come from our district, they could have come from our local, and that's just the way it is with federal 01:36:00employees and uh, you have to be mindful of that and do the best you can to represent them.

KATA: Is it your, was it district 14 who represents Puerto Rico? Or is that district 5?

WALKER: No, it was five. I had Puerto Rico, well, that's another on down the road assignment of mine.

KATA: Mmm hmm.

WALKER: When I was vice president. It was certainly… It was in the fifteenth district that Puerto Rico and all of the non-contiguous states were in the fifteenth district. In, back in the 79, 80, 81 timeframe, 82, in that era, AFGE had to reorganize. They were losing a lot of members; we were really having 01:37:00a lot of financial problems in the organization. And in 1980, I became the director of organizing in AFGE, at the headquarters office, and my job was to organize and we'd been losing members for a period of five years. Well, the first year that I was in there, we had a gain of membership and since that time, we've continued to gain.

KATA: Mmm hmm.

WALKER: And then I got very sick and the doctors told me that I wouldn't live, and so I was debating on whether to get myself well or continue working, and get 01:38:00myself well, so I figured that I must decide that I couldn't work anymore and that I needed to get myself well if I could. And so I spent a couple of years trying to get well. Well, from 1981 to 1983, 3 I guess or 4, uh, 85. I didn't work. It was 1985. I didn't work because I was, I went back to, they assigned me back, after I got sick, assigned me back to the labor relations department.

KATA: OK.

WALKER: But at that time I had moved out of the bargaining unit into a management position and so when I moved back into bargaining unit, I was the low man on the totem pole, even though I had seniority over everybody else.

KATA: Right.

WALKER: As far as working for the AFGE, but I, seniority, seniority, in the 01:39:00bargaining unit, so. When the, when they were riffing employees, I was among the first to go because I'd just gone back into the bargaining unit. So in 1981, I was riffed and I stayed out until 1985. I went back to work in Virginia as a magistrate for the Supreme Court of Virginia, and I worked there until 91 and then I came back to AFGE in the fifth district.

KATA: Wow. I didn't know that you worked as a magistrate.

WALKER: I worked, six years, I, six and a half years, I worked as a magistrate for the Supreme Court of Virginia. And it was, it was another exciting period of my life, although I still helped a lot of people in AFGE, you know, too. And I 01:40:00was an arbitrator and I got hearing assignments in the private sector and did some of that while I was off, and I still kept up with my AFGE function. You know, then I got a call from Ken Blalock wanting me to come work with fifth district.

KATA: Did you have a, did you work with Ken Blalock prior to leaving AFGE when you left?

WALKER: Mmm hmm. He was the national president when I left AFGE. And John Sturtevant--

KATA: He's from this district?

WALKER: Yeah. But he came back to work down here as the national vice president after he left as president of AFGE. And --

KATA: Is that usual?

WALKER: No, but they didn't have anybody that wanted it, so that was, you 01:41:00know, and no one that really knew what they were doing, so he took it. And he ran for the job, and took it, but certainly then after I came down here, the locals pulled my heartstrings and asked me to run for MVP. So I did.

KATA: Succeeding Ken Blalock?

WALKER: Yep. And it's time for me to retire, so I'm retired. It's been a long, it's been a long, long, long hard job, but it's been a rewarding job. I can't tell you the number of awards I received from different organizations including about my magistrate's work. You know being a magistrate and you, you have to 01:42:00release people and back into the community. You have to think of something for them to do during that time until they're, they go to court again, right? Well, I would think of all these things that I could get them to do, and keep them busy, and --

KATA: Such as?

WALKER: Such as, well, I would have them going to meetings, coming to the jail and talking to deputies or someone else, the sheriff, or the commonwealth attorney, or somebody, about being, what you should do and when you get into trouble, what you should do to stay out of trouble, all of those things, to help them to get over alcohol, or whatever else they needed to do, you know. In everything, except the meanies who kill somebody, then I didn't do that. I 01:43:00didn't let them out. Or somebody that raped somebody. Uh, raping is a violent act, so I wouldn't let them out. Those are just--You know. SO I got an award for doing that. I thought that, you know, that was my job, and it's just like doing all this other stuff. I thought that was my job. I didn't really need an award for doing my job. And so I never really liked to blow my own horn, so to speak. But it's been, I chuckle at it every once in a while. Well, I have a lot of friends across the country and overseas that call me often to make sure that I'm 01:44:00still around, and then sometimes asking me what would you do if you were me and you were offered this. And I said well, you have to think of this, and think of this, and think of this, and then, what would occur if this occurred, what do you think in the future would occur if you got this. You have to think about all of those and then which one you want to do. So they would call me back and tell me that I helped them make the right decision. I didn't help them make the decision; they made it themselves. So you have to tell them, you know, you made your own decision. I don't like to do that, but I get a call every once in a while from people that I helped in jail and out of jail. I get cards from them every year. I get telephone calls from people that I mentored in the union movement to learn to be good representatives, caring -- good, caring 01:45:00representatives. You can be a good representative and you're not worth a darn personally, you know, and they don't' care. Some of them don't care, well, if that's what the union sends out here, you know, even though I won, they were an asshole, you know. So you have to teach them how to be a caring person and representative. They know. They know the difference. But today, I brought you a lot of papers that in some way represent some of my work as I did collective bargaining. Some of the first contracts where we had the right to bargain collectively on any issues, establishing case law for AFGE under the civil service reform act. All of, most of that work is, re-interpreted some now 01:46:00lately, and they've changed some of it, but not very much of it. They haven't changed that.

KATA: Can you talk about the passing of the Civil Service Reform Act? How, how you were involved in that, and then its impact on the union, but then how you felt about it.

WALKER: Well, you have to understand federal employees and how they feel about different facets of the laws that are passed effecting them.

KATA: Mmm hmm.

WALKER: Is it good? Most of them that are passed, our people say no, it is no good, you know. It will change everything and we don't, you know, we have so many changes now that all this change is just, is just not good. Well, you have to think about that. And you have to figure out ways that you're going to train them on how these changes are going to affect them and help them and not hurt them.

KATA: Mmm hmm.

WALKER: But at the same time, if you're going to get something, you got to give a little, you know, and not be a hog and get it all at one time. So -- excuse me for just a moment.

KATA: That's OK.

WALKER: My lips are dry.

KATA: Mm.

WALKER: Anyway, the Civil Service Reform Act was going to be the greatest change that had occurred in AFGE since 10, the executive order 10988 was passed. Remember Kennedy. And at that time, when we were, when 10988 passed, they said the only thing that we could negotiate was the rules and regulations, and well, there they were. They were there; why did we want to negotiate anything, you 01:48:00know. But we knew that negotiations on a, at that level, would help us in the negotiations when we finally got the law passed where we could bargain and they couldn't wipe it away with just an executive order, you know. It had to be, back on the hill, and everybody vote for it in order to enact it again, to change it. So it was very difficult. The 11491 expanded the ability to negotiate, but only just a little. I mean as it was, it was minute. But it was an extension of 10988 and did add a few things onto it. But when we were on the verge of getting the 01:49:00Civil Service Reform Act, there was a new President coming in, and he was for the working poor, and you know. The working man and woman out there. Carter was, he might not have been so polished as a politician in Washington, D.C., listening to everybody get after you about everything, you know, the way you smiled when you got up in the morning, the way you one hair might have been sticking out under your hat or a hair on your lapel or something. Under very much scrutiny, I mean they noticed everything, everything, and the reporters are 01:50:00a greedy bunch. And they're so greedy that they want a story that they will write it on anything, just to be the first to get the story. So he wasn't polished in that way, but he was honest, and if he told you something, he would do it. You don't ever get that from many politicians.

KATA: Right.

WALKER: And it was a new thing from Carter. You know, it's just new to us. We were flabbergasted. So anyway, when we got that signed, we had a lot of work to do. We had to take what was developed as the Bill itself, which we had a lot of input into, a lot of the employees in the national office would write something on this and something on that and whatever subject matter and then, you know, 01:51:00certainly. Mine was in the arbitration collective bargaining. So anyway, after this bill was signed into law, then we knew that we had to train all the representatives across the country into what this law meant, how it affected Federal employees, and what we were going to do about it within the local unions. We did not want local unions going out there, taking every case in the world before the Federal Labor Relations Authority and arguing that to set a precedent on issues that would hurt you and harm you, harm the Federal employees and harm our ability to really get some good work done under the Civil Service Reform Act. So a part of my job was working, with a group, in the headquarters 01:52:00office establishing case law on any and every subject matter that went to the authority. In bargaining, that's every subject matter, you know, before the impasses panel, and that's another issue where you have to set precedents, you know, under the impasse panel because we had no bargaining under either one of them. And so we had to work very hard and really scrutinize the work --

KATA: Mmm hmm. I was going to say, I mean, how did that selection process take place?

WALKER: Yeah, it came to the headquarters office, and we would sit around the table and cuss and discuss and how it would affect Federal employees if we did this or do that and then we'd argue the issues, and then went from there, and 01:53:00established good case law. And then the locals then, some of them started doing their own thing, and some was bad case law.

KATA: Hmm.

WALKER: But it was a year or so later before they did that because the policy was that we did it at the Headquarters Office. We did the, all appeals to the Authority, and the Impasses Panel, and, ourselves at Headquarters. So we were a really busy office establishing that case law, but working with John Garner was one of the nicest things in the world because he was so smart. And anybody and everybody in Washington, D.C. would call John Mulholland for an interpretation and application of that law because he knew what it was. It was just amazing at times; he was so smart. Very, very smart. He was a hard person to work with, but 01:54:00ooh, he was good. Very good. He'd get on your case if you didn't argue right, you know.

KATA: Do you, I mean, did you have to have, did people have to have a formal legal education or was it a mix of self-educating and --

WALKER: What was it? What it was was we had, we went to the George Meany Center, and maybe our own people, like Mulholland, would do the training, but we stayed in this training -- Blalock believed in training. And we stayed in this training to learn how to do a lot of things, you know. And I expect that we went to the George Meany Center enough to have attended college for two or three years. That's how much training we got at that Center out there. And how much 01:55:00participation that we were in that Center by doing training for others and helping them, too, because nobody out there understood the Federal sector, what we did, so they would always come to us, and I, that's how I got involved in doing a lot of the training at the Center myself, including in arbitration, collective bargaining. Everything and anything that had to do with the Federal government because all the rules and regulations despite the fact that you've got a contract, and despite the fact that you've, that you know there might be a precedent decision out there, they're not going to just apply it across the board just because you've got precedent, you see. You have to go out and win your others just like you do those.

KATA: Mmm.

WALKER: So, you know, in the Federal government, it's a lot different.

KATA: Because you're really lobbying for enforcement of laws?

WALKER: Damn right. That's right. And laws change. And if you don't have it spelled out in your contract, you don't have any coverage, so you have to negotiate it again. So you might have a contract that lasts for three years or five years, and then you might have negotiations that go on all the time, and you have agreements that add to that contract. And they go under the grievance procedure that you, you can have a lot of additions to an agreement in the Federal sector.

KATA: Mmm. And then of course wages are approved by Congress.

WALKER: Yeah. You have to lobby Congress in order to get the money. Now on the pay council for the wage grade, that's not true.

KATA: OK.

WALKER: It's the pay council that makes that decision. That's on the general schedule, employees, maybe non appropriated fund. The non appropriated fund, 01:57:00don't get paid out of general schedule, or wages, Federal wages. They get paid out of whatever they make on the job, and whatever the sales are, like in the exchanges, places like that. Those are non appropriated funds.

KATA: So it's a very different labor movement experience in the Federal sector.

WALKER: Yes, because you have, you have all the laws that affect non appropriated fund employees. You have the laws that are different for wage grade. You have laws that are different for the general schedule employees. And you have just any law that the government wants to pass today and have affect you tomorrow on anything new or novel or change a law, those kind of things. Now 01:58:00of course, you're protected by the law and whether they can change it under the collective bargaining agreement. It's according to what you've got in there. It's according to what you have, the language you have in your agreement. So that protection is, sometimes when a local would negotiate their own contract, they didn't negotiate those protections in there, so every time a change, they're bargaining unit, bargaining agreement changed. But now I think they've learned enough that they don't do that anymore. They hadn't when I left.

KATA: It doesn't sound simple.

WALKER: It isn't. It is not a simple. We have many other employees. We have special, special schedules. You know, just everything. Everything that it covers. Private sector and everything that covers the Federal employee. And a rule, you know, a law. You have to know what it is.

KATA: But through, I mean, through your time in the labor movement, you personally, how did you feel solidarity with a non-Federal sector worker?

WALKER: They were union.

KATA: What does that mean to you?

WALKER: It means that all workers of America, no matter who you work for, it means that you're union brothers and sisters, and your issues are mine, and my issues are yours. Sometimes my issues cross yours, and I have to explain to you something about why these changes might affect you differently than you might want it to, but how it affects our people that work for the Federal employees, Federal sector, how it affects them in their jobs because they could lose their jobs, they could get paid much less than what they get paid now, and to tell you the truth, that's what they're doing. Now. Today. For the Federal employees. 02:00:00They're hurting Federal employees. Well, they're hurting private sector too, but not as much as they are Federal employees because they're changing everything, and this little law is still in effect. Well, it's up there.

KATA: Yeah. Is that in the name of --

WALKER: In the name of George Bush and company.

KATA: I was going to say homeland security, but it's all the same.

WALKER: There is no homeland security because all of the agencies that are supposed to be in homeland security, and I don't care if you print it, are not, they're still where they were and they don't know what they're supposed to do if all hell breaks loose out here. What are they supposed to do? Well, I don't know. It's just like, many years ago, they wrote no rules for our emergency, 02:01:00Federal Emergency Management, FEMA --

KATA: FEMA, right.

WALKER: FEMA. And when they had an emergency, nobody knew what to move, when to move, and how to get there quick enough. Because of the rules and regulations, right? Well, many years later they finally found out that you got to get out there and you've got to move and you've got to do this, and you've got to do that, and your job description says you do this, and you don't worry about what your boss says. You don't worry about what anyone else says. You don't worry about nothing. You go out there and you do your job. You get there quick as you can. They know the teams now; they know the teams that they're 02:02:00going to be assigned to. They know what they have to do. Every person. It wasn't like that a few years ago. It's like, what, CDC, at one time they didn't know what to do either.

KATA: Really?

WALKER: Well, it's because the rules and the regulations, and management not making a decision unless you were the director or the head of the agency or something, you know. You had to wait for all of that. Well, now you almost have to wait for all of that. That's OK. That's OK, but you can't do your job. It might be OK, but they've stopped that many years ago. I think the Civil Service Reform Act stopped that. A lot of it. And everybody didn't learn what their job description was, what they had to do and then they got teams up together and this is the way we're going to work. And you know, it's, it's been hard for the 02:03:00Federal employee because you don't know one will tell you this, and one will tell you that, and that's the way it's been going for years and years and years, but it's not, it's not that bad any more, but it still goes on.

KATA: Did you want to talk about --

WALKER: No, I brought that, I wanted to talk to this. Because this is a tribute to our National President regarding John Griner as the leader of AFGE and how much he made develop, the union, labor relations and all of that, and I brought this because you can learn a lot about AFGE through this right here.

KATA: This is a copy of the Congressional Record from the 93rd Congress.

WALKER: Correct.

KATA: OK. I read some of the [older copies of the] Government Standard and 02:04:00some of the documents that AFGE has put up to pay tribute to John Griner and Clyde Webber and Esther Johnson.

WALKER: Is that with national offices?

KATA: Mmm hmm.

WALKER: Well, I was the national Vice President, but I don't think that they would ever contribute anything to, but you know. That's fine too. But I want to pay tribute where tribute's due. And a lot of them did not deserve tribute that's gotten tribute. But this man did. This man made AFGE. He had a wisdom far beyond what a lot of people thought in the Federal sector. And you know, he worked with George Meany real well, George Meany, and they had a public employee department in the AFL CIO, and I guess they still do. And ---I used to work with 02:05:00them a lot on issues within the PED because they, you know, had all the unions that were affiliated as a part of that office too. You could go up there and get some help, but most of the time I helped them. You know. So I worked with them real well in AFL CIO, and then when I got, I got to be the Director of Organizing in AFGE, I worked with the AFL CIO and at that time I was the only female Director of Organizing within the AFL CIO. Shortly thereafter, Vicky Porter became the Director of Organizing with the Teamsters I think. Wasn't that her name?

KATA: Mm.

WALKER: Supporter or something, I don't know what her name is. But anyway, it was, those guys, they just treated me like one of them, you know. They just 02:06:00talked to me like I was one of them.

KATA: Mmm hmm.

WALKER: In the AFL CIO. They didn't care. They were OK. They didn't make any unkind remarks, but it was, it was a very difficult at times, going to a meeting, being the only female there, and watching each one of the men sitting at the table as to whether they were hearing you or just being passive. So I always concentrated on the one who made the decision, and that was the one that I talked with. And if somebody else, you know, spoke up and said something, then I always got in their grits and then I went back to talking to the person that was going to make the decision. I learned that in the beginning, to talk to that person, and then find out if there was any one on the, around the table, that 02:07:00had influence, and I talked to that person. But very few had influence, making decisions, and you could tell that in the beginning, and I always talked to the person that (inaudible). And I got good decisions. Most of the time. I was disappointed occasionally, but like I say, it was one of those things. You know, you can't win them all. That was my goal, win them all. But you learn soon enough not to do that. And I did train a lot of females, and I had a lot of female national representatives, lot of female labor relations officers, and a lot of secretaries in the office of labor relations who wanted to go beyond 02:08:00being a secretary and into the field of labor relations in AFGE. So I have quite a few of those that I taught that are still out there working; some of them are retired now. And they thank me every day because they, you know, they are doing things they love and they make more money doing it too. So, I'm proud of that, but I don't, I feel real uneasy for them to say that I was their mentor. I really do feel uneasy about that and I am not one that can take accolades very easily. You know, it's just not me. So, but I didn't list in my thing over here 02:09:00a lot of things because there is no space to do so, and I've forgotten more than I know.

KATA: That's all right.

WALKER: A lot of the stuff that is there, but the years that I worked in the union, and I'm still, I'm one of the Vice Presidents on the Board of the AFL CIO in Georgia, and I still have my hands in that. Once a union mover and shaker, I doubt if you ever grow out of it. You have to learn that your time is gone, and others who are young and put more into it can come in and do that, and that's what I have done now. Occasionally I might get involved in it if they call me and ask me to; I am involved in the AFL CIO, but I would rather someone else now 02:10:00take over and see what they can do in the Federal and, Federal labor relations movement, and also the union movement as a whole. We have no issues that are different. All of our issues are different. We're working people. It's just according to where you work. Those issues are different, but you have to understand, but a lot of people don't understand Federal employees. There are, there's the Hatch Act that prohibits a lot of activity that you can do in the private sector.

KATA: Such as striking?

WALKER: Such as going on strike. We can picket, but we cannot strike, and that's the law of the land, and so we don't, we don't break the laws. We try to 02:11:00see that everybody obey the laws, like our border patrol, and immigration, and martial, used to be martial service, used to be DEA, until an Executive Order exempted them from being able to join a union. And then we lost two councils, a lot of membership, by doing that, so. It's been very difficult. And the martial service was one of those that I organized, when I was Director of Organizing.

KATA: You did?

WALKER: So, there were a few of them. HUD, Housing and Urban Development was one. And I did the martial service. I worked with them quite a bit because I didn't have enough staff in the Headquarters office to do all of that, so I had to do a lot of it myself. That was a time that we were on the margin of being 02:12:00very poor, you know, out the door kind of thing. But when I came back into AFGE in 1991, yeah, I came back to the fifth district office where I left because I moved back home. I moved back from Virginia to Georgia, to be with my family, and so, in my retirement years, and then I got this telephone call that I really didn't want to retire, and so I went back to work for AFGE as the Executive Assistant to the National Vice President in the fifth district. And because it was Ken Blalock, Ken, you run the office, so I ran the office, and the meetings 02:13:00and everything else out there I was involved in. Doing all of it, so -- I helped all the locals, I went to Puerto Rico and negotiated contracts in Puerto Rico. That had never been done before, and it was just a miracle that I was back and the locals wanted me to run for National Vice President when Mr. Blalock wanted to go, so I did, and I was the National Vice President of the district and the first female Vice President in this district. They didn't know that, they didn't know that they wanted a female until I came along I guess. And then they decided they did, and then, it was a big job because we added Puerto Rico, the Virgin 02:14:00Islands, and Bermuda onto, cause we don't have now, we now have no locals in Bermuda, but we have a recognition in Bermuda. The local doesn't do that anymore, but we have some union members down there and recognition, in the Navy. But anyway, it was a big, big district.

KATA: For sure.

WALKER: And it was a huge responsibility and I wanted to make it grow and we did. By about 6,000 people by the time I got out in three years. And that's not bad, in the South where you have not one right to work state.

KATA: Right. Can you talk about that?

WALKER: I mean, all of them are right to work.

KATA: Right. The South. Organizing in the South.

WALKER: It's easier than organizing in the North.

KATA: Why do you say that?

WALKER: Well, because I been all over. See I was the Director of Organizing and a lot of people have different ideas about unions. Across this country. Today the people in the South see what they didn't see before because they were in one way, the pride in the South was really, really something for all the workers. They felt like that they were being recognized for the work that they did, finally. After all these years. Well, the country got so small that you 02:16:00could work in Georgia and live in New York, or you could move to Georgia and Florida and South Carolina and North Carolina and Tennessee and Alabama, and find a good job because the people were moving to the South. So then we got all of these people from all over the world that moved to the South and changed the tide of the work of the South. Changed the tide also of the politics of the South. And it changed everything that we had ever known before, including the workplace. That, those changes have in a lot of cases hurt the workers in the 02:17:00South that were here before.

[Silence]

KATA: OK. This is the second side of Tape 2. Mary Lynn, you were talking about workers in the South.

WALKER: I think that the workers in the South felt like that they were being 02:19:00pushed aside. Making room for all of these people that were moving in. And they still feel like that today. And a lot of these people that feel like that are not, not doing anything to -- the majority are not doing anything to help themselves to get around that. So they're very unhappy in their work. And where they didn't use to be. But a lot of the work is changing. A lot of the buildings, they're being closed up. A lot of the work is being sent overseas. And they continue with -- this administration continues with their trade agreements, the majority of the work is going. Right now you can call regarding your health problem, and you talking to someone in India or someone in Singapore. Do they know you? Do they know your doctor? Do they know what your 02:20:00diagnosis is and what kind of medicine is over here in the United States of America? No. But yet they're making decisions on your insurance. Those are the kind of things that's hurting American people in their job. I don't know what we're going to do to stem the flow of -- but one day the employees are going to wake up, and they're going to say maybe I should have been very active in the union. Maybe I should have had my say on Capitol Hill. Maybe I should have been picketing. Maybe I should have let my voice be heard to my representative. Because there's nothing going to be left here to work, except just very few jobs. People are not going to have any money to spend on all these goods that 02:21:00are coming back. And you don't have a job to spend it on. They're not going to be able to buy cars and all of these new homes out here. If you go to the courthouse today, any courthouse, any courthouse, during the week, you will find many, many houses that are being repossessed. That's not good. That's not good. But it's every day. Or the scheduled days that the court has for them to do that. On the courthouse steps somebody's getting your house. Day after day, not on the courthouse steps but on the steps of what used to be your workplace, people are being told that their job is not going to last but another month 02:22:00maybe. Or tomorrow goodbye. We're closing up and we're moving to China. Or Thailand or somewhere in South America. Somebody up there is not thinking for tomorrow. They're only thinking about their pockets today. Well today is not going to be your happiness. It's all of your tomorrows. And if you have no tomorrows that you can be happy in, you're not going to stay around very long. That's what worries me, and I can see it. Of course I might be gone, but I can see it coming. And it's going to come. But it's going to be too late for us to wake up and see all of this. If you go back in these -- in any of these, you 02:23:00look, see what issues that were affecting the government back then are some of the same issues that are still affecting the government today, but it is not with great urgency like it is today. Because of contracting out all federal employee work, they tell you that contracting out gives all of this to the federal -- I mean the private sector, which will decrease the need for government sector. No it doesn't. This new security agency, Homeland Security, so-called, my home is my own and my land is my own and I'm going to take care of 02:24:00my own security. And that's what everybody's going to have to do, because there is no way -- think about this.

KATA: Right.

WALKER: How can anybody save you when you're way down here in Georgia and they're not even worried about you, they're worried about Washington, DC. That's all. Well, you got to think -- you've got to think beyond the thinking that they want you to think. But today the urgency is, they're not only getting rid of the federal sector unions by doing all of this, they're getting rid of the private sector union by contracting out also. Not only just contracting out but outsourcing. What do they call it? There are several other issues of 02:25:00outsourcing. They take a job and they will give it to a temporary talent agency, and that temporary talent agency, they don't have to pay you anything except what they want to pay you, and you don't have any protection for health insurance. The ability to have some sort of retirement in your future. The civil service -- I mean the federal government today and the civil service on all this Social Security, if they change that to having a person save their own money, this is not going to work with people who are working people who have to spend that money on their children and help their children through school and to save a lot of money so that they can go to college and save a lot of money so that 02:26:00they can have a retirement. They're not going to have any. And changing Social Security is going to take it away from them too. So they're not going to have anything. So guess who is going to have to pay for all of this? When it's our children's children's children that are going to have to pay for all of this. By the way of taxes. Well, what kind of job are they going to have? None. That's what I worry about.

KATA: It's scary.

WALKER: Very frightening. Very, very frightening, and I'm sure that you hear this all the time but it is something that's really true.

KATA: Well, it needs to be said.

WALKER: Very true. And the average Joe Bloke out there does not understand this 02:27:00because they're only thinking about their today. How am I going to get through today? Well, you got many tomorrows still and if you don't plan for your tomorrows you're not going to have any. I don't know. You don't want this. I'm going to --

KATA: What do you have here? Let me see. Society of Federal Labor Relations Professionals. Nice.

WALKER: 1973.

KATA: Wow. You have been accepted as a member in good standing.

WALKER: Well.

KATA: And how many women that time?

WALKER: Very few. Very few. Fortunately the FLRA did have somebody -- I mean not the FLRA but the federal government had -- well, you had -- not the FLRA, was it? Federal Mediation Conciliation Service. Some of their people were 02:28:00affiliated and the federal employee management people were affiliated then. They began calling it labor. We did back in the early '70s. We wanted everybody to get used to this labor relations thing, federal sector. So thank goodness the members of the society that worked in agencies wanted it to be so because a lot of their education was labor relations and you know so. And a lot of them I taught, how about that?

KATA: That's amazing.

WALKER: Yeah. Yeah, one time I had an interview with the Federal Mediation Service because they wanted me to come to work for the Federal Mediation Service. And so I had to go to New York for the interview. And there were no 02:29:00women on the interview board. That was in early days and I was -- they didn't have any women in DC. So anyway the men said I was too aggressive. You know, I'm just talking like men are talking. Said I was too aggressive to be a mediator. And that was the way it was for women back then.

KATA: You think it's different now?

WALKER: Yes. It is different. Men's thoughts are changing. If they hadn't changed, they wouldn't still be around. You know? So they've changed a lot. I mean and I'd like to think that in my own way even by myself at the table with all those men changed a lot of that and their way of thinking, because they 02:30:00began hiring females for the positions of employee relations and employee negotiations and all of that. So I'd like to think that I had a lot to do with that in my own way. I think I did. But being a woman was very, very difficult many, many years. Many years. But it was fun. And I have so many awards that I just really don't know which ones to give you.

KATA: That's all right. You can think about it.

WALKER: I must think about this. Let me give you this. But I really do.

KATA: Wait. Do you feel like talking a little bit more about your time in the '80s and '90s working here in the district, working with Ken Blalock and then 02:31:00actually work done with the state fed here?

WALKER: Oh yeah, I can do that. When I came back, we were involved -- well, we rented space for our office in Fifth District, we rented space and then we bought a space. And I was a part of that movement to purchase space for our union office, and certainly to run the leasing of the offices that were onto the building that we bought.

KATA: Here in -- is it Atlanta?

WALKER: It's in Riverdale.

KATA: Riverdale.

WALKER: So we not only -- you not only had the national office, you had a business to run for our rental leasing business as far as that building was concerned and to run the building.

KATA: Oh my goodness.

WALKER: And you also had the Fifth District Council of Locals. You know that district council of locals is a meeting. It was chartered and operated by itself. It had to operate by itself.

KATA: Annual?

WALKER: Annual meetings, yeah, two a year. And so you had all of these things that you had to do plus all of your locals. And everything. So you had a very busy busy time, and it took a lot of people working together to put all of these pieces together to make sure that it ran like soup, you know? So you had to make 02:33:00sure that all of this was done. So when I became national Vice President, it was certainly easy for me to know what to do and when I had to do it and everything. And know my responsibilities under the laws, which because we are under the same laws and much more stringent laws than the private sector as far as being a union is concerned. So you have to watch your Ps and Qs here as a union person, or you can get in a lot of trouble. So running those three businesses, that's what it is, a business. And you know it's supposed to be a union at the same time. But you have to make sure that your business part gets done and that your 02:34:00union part comes along with that. So this district was the largest district in the entire federation. And no woman had ever held that job before. So I had a lot of questions from a lot of people outside the district, how is she going to run that job, you know, they've never had a woman before, and you know those people from the South, they don't like women giving them orders or anything. And you know so it was still difficult when I first became the Vice President. But luckily I had quite a number of guys that were very supportive and would take care of any problems that came up on the floor, you know, if I thought that it 02:35:00was going to bother me, I'd just let one of them know and I didn't have to worry about it. But it was still a problem because you still have a lot of people down here who think that women shouldn't even be in the workplace. And isn't that amazing when all of those generations are gone?

KATA: Right.

WALKER: When their wife has to work. And they still feel that way. It's amazing to me that we have anyone, anyone with that attitude today. Knowing what it is to try to work and take care of your family and have something that you can relax in and enjoy sometime in your life, you know? So but it's amazing, you still find them. You still find them in the local unions. And some of them are 02:36:00younger. Younger than you are. And why they have that feeling I'll never know. Some of these younger fellows out here have those kind of feelings. If you ever talk to them. You ought to talk to some of them. Some of them are in high school. Talk to them, because they do. And then you have to talk to them and tell them why. You know, that that's not really true. You know, if you get married, when you get married, what do you think that you're going to do? Are you going to tell your wife what she can do and can't do? I don't think so. And another thing, are you going to be able to make enough money to support her in the way she wants to be supported and not just you? And I know you going to want 02:37:00to some goodies, you know? But I'm afraid that they're getting back, a lot of them are still of that same opinion. They probably got it from their father, their father's father, or some jackass down the street, you know, that -- that's a big redneck.

KATA: Yeah. Do you feel that the work and all the efforts that you've put in the labor movement you've been able to spread that throughout your own family?

WALKER: Yes. My sister is a big labor movement person.

KATA: Your sister Sarah?

WALKER: Sarah. My sister Elizabeth didn't work, so she didn't join a union, you know?

KATA: Well, not even necessarily participating in it, just --

WALKER: But she loves the union.

KATA: Yeah.

WALKER: Now I have some brothers that don't. Why? They don't like it because women went to work in the first place. Very true. Very true. I got some brothers 02:38:00that you know they didn't think that women should go to work. But they're proud of me. You know, why are they proud of me if they don't want their own wife to do something? I don't understand that. I may not ever. I may go to my grave never understanding that part of my family. But they laugh about it. It's a laughable thing. And we can get through this discussion. We get through a lot of discussions about their disagreements by you have the right to disagree, OK, fine, that's great, now let's discuss it. Let me tell you why I like it, and you tell me why you don't. So we have our discussions, but we can -- you know, we don't get -- now I get angry with my husband. If he disagrees with something and 02:39:00then tells me that it's the union's fault that I feel that way, he just does that to me to get an angry response I think. He wants to debate something. Well, I love debates, so come on. That's what I tell him anyway. But during my work at that, I enjoyed my work as a national Vice President, a lot of the duties and responsibilities are more than one person can handle because it is such a large district, but if you don't do anything you can't handle -- you know, you don't have to worry about handling it. But unfortunately some things I let go this month that I had to do next month, you know, and I would try to cover all bases 02:40:00and make sure that I got everything around what everybody needed and everybody wanted, and if their wants were not beyond their means. I don't know. It is a large, large district, and I think that some of the small districts need to either take over some of that or what, you know? I don't know. Now the vice presidents who have the largest district think they have more power on the National Executive Council. You have more votes. That's some power. But I can tell you right now, you got to get all of those others to agree with you to vote for you. Or you're not going nowhere. So you know you have to make sure that the 02:41:00National Executive Council was OK with you when you needed a vote. There's a lot of things you have to do there, and it takes every minute every day of work, and I don't want to do that anymore now. I am at the age that I can let somebody else take over and work this. I don't mind helping them. I don't mind doing anything for the union, because this country needs the union. There is no other body that can speak for the working man but the union, because there's nobody up on the Hill, there's nobody in the statehouse, there's nobody in the White House. And there's nobody in nobody else's house that's going to help you but the union. And if you don't wake up, your job is going. KATA: What do you think 02:42:00your greatest contribution to the union was?

WALKER: Probably coming in as the first female and making it very easy for others to be hired. Not by my aggressive tone but by aggressive activities that showed that a woman was capable, a woman was capable of doing the work, not -- I don't know if I should say this or not, but a lot of people at that time when I first went in were still looking at a woman as a toy, and you could toy with 02:43:00her, you know, and get her to see everything your way, and all this stuff. Well, you can't play those games in -- you could not play those games in Washington, DC and do the work that we did. You cannot play those games. There's absolutely no way. If you meant business. Because you would lose everything you have. Just it's an absolute loss. And I did see that a couple of times. And the people had to quit work. My boss wouldn't put up with it because when he hired me he says I'm going to sign this job over to you as a national rep, but he said I'm going to tell you right now, whatever you do in this job is going to have an effect on whether we hire any more women in it, you know. So you know that was a big chip 02:44:00that I had to get off my shoulder in order to help everybody. But I knew what he meant. I wasn't stupid. He come from Georgia just like I did, you know, south of the Mason-Dixon Line. I could read his mind. He didn't have to tell me anything else. I know what he was doing. Do a good job, you'll get rewarded, and no hanky-panky. But anyway, he was a good boss, and a good man, and Ralph Feiser was too. And let me tell you right now, that man right there would not put up with hanky-panky either.

KATA: Who's that?

WALKER: Ralph.

KATA: Feiser.

WALKER: Uh huh. So --

KATA: Well, is there anything that you think that you would do differently? That's kind of my final question to you.

WALKER: Anything that I would do differently? Probably the only thing that I regret -- and I'm not sure that I really regret that, was when I was ripped from AFGE, and didn't take the job back when they called me and called me back, but I was a magistrate then, and I was really enjoying that. So you know and then I came back down here, moved back down South, and went back in to work with the district. Which was something that I'd always wanted to do. So I was able to do that, you know. Now it mattered little to me whether or not I became national Vice President. I mean that was not one of my goals or my dreams. I was the 02:46:00person who was doing the work, helping all those people out there, and I enjoyed doing that. Every aspect of the labor relations, I did it. Organizing, climbing down in sewers, and by the way, climbing down in that sewer was one of the most popular issues. It made the New York Times.

KATA: Do you still have a copy of that?

WALKER: Yeah, somewhere, at home, yeah. I don't know if it's in here or not. I didn't look through all of them, so I don't know if it's in here.

KATA: We have time.

WALKER: But I can certainly get that for you. It was in the New York Times and they didn't exactly portray it right, but the people that worked in those sewers in DC, they had to eat down in there in the sewers, eat their lunch, and there was water all over the place, and sewage and all that stuff.

KATA: You just don't think about those things.

WALKER: You know, and they never -- they had to eat down there. So I got a contingent one day. We were talking about that at the table. And I said all right, we're going to go to eat in the sewer next week with these people here. 02:47:00So if you all can get a table that won't float away, you know, I want you to have a big enough one now, and I'm buying. I want you all to know that I'm buying this lunch. And so the head of labor relations, who was Don Weinberg at that time, he said Mary Lynn, he said I don't know what you're going to get us into. I said I'm going to tell you what I'm going to get you into, Don. You going to find a place up topside for those people to come out of that damn sewer and have a nice place to eat. They're going to have a stove, a refrigerator, a glassed in place so they don't smell all this crap out here, and they're going to have a place to be nice and put up their feet and enjoy their lunch. But first, we're going down in that damn sewer and I'm going to show you where they 02:48:00eat. So we went down in the sewer. I showed them where they ate. And we came up topside and right in the middle of that huge floor they had this glassed in place that they had started to build this lunchroom up there so they could come up and eat. And that was reported in the New York Times.

KATA: That's a great story.

WALKER: And I got it. And I wanted to do that. So you see there's just things that you can do. Just things you can do. Make sure that people are represented right. And they're treated right. But I enjoyed that.

KATA: Do you have any final words to say?

WALKER: You know, over a 30-year period plus, it is very difficult to think of final words to say when you're not final in your work.

KATA: Absolutely. You're right.

WALKER: So I'm still working with the AFL-CIO and I plan to work with Charlie on some issues that I have within the Greater Atlanta Council.

KATA: Good, Charlie Fleming?

WALKER: Yes. And see if we can't get the South Side interested in doing something, finding us a place to meet and seeing who can chair that meeting and meet with our union brothers and sisters down there, because there's plenty of them that live there. I get a lot of their mail.

KATA: Well, absolutely. And in final words, I meant final to our time today.

WALKER: Well, I certainly appreciate the opportunity that you've given me to remember some of the things. But those are just maybe some highlights.

KATA: Highlights, right.

WALKER: The other is the hard work that went with some of the highlights, you 02:50:00know, and believe me, it wasn't easy, but I have made it easier for a lot of people who came after me today. And I know that for a fact, and they know that, but those people are being -- you know, they're leaving. And so nobody knows what you do after you leave.

KATA: That's right.

WALKER: Now my employment was very irrelevant except my union. That was my work, my life. Anything that happened before that was just incidental.

KATA: OK.

WALKER: My education, I finished high school, and I've got a lot of work done in colleges, but I didn't go to a four-year college and graduate. My awards are too numerous to add here. And I really didn't know that until I got to looking 02:51:00at them, and --

KATA: That's all right.

WALKER: They're just --

KATA: It's really the stories that count.

WALKER: Yeah, I want to write something down, what did I do with my purse, here it is.

KATA: Here's a pen.

WALKER: Ar War Celt.

KATA: OK.

WALKER: My Irish Welsh French from my mother.

KATA: Good.

WALKER: And my daddy is English, Welsh, and Irish. I got something of everything.

KATA: Well, the way that it's going to work is we're going to -- I'll have you look over the release form and then we'll take this back and we'll make a copy 02:52:00for you, and then we'll make a copy to get transcribed. And it's really the transcription that becomes the historical record of your interview, because you're going to have an opportunity to read through it and edit through anything that you know you want changed or --

WALKER: Added to.

KATA: Added to, absolutely.

WALKER: OK.

KATA: And there's also the opportunity if you're interested, after you listen to the tape and read through the transcript, if you wanted to do a follow-up interview. Because like you said, these were just highlights of a 30-year career. So and then of course the work that you're doing now, maybe down the line you'd be interested in coming back and doing another interview.

WALKER: I can do that.

KATA: But thank you so much for your time.

WALKER: I hope you've enjoyed it.

KATA: Oh absolutely I can't even tell you. There aren't any words. But, we're just very happy that your story is here because it absolutely needs to 02:53:00be part of the record and it needs to be told.

WALKER: Well, at some point somebody kept telling me that I was going have to do something because being the first woman national representative, being the first woman to do this, being the first woman that, you know, all of this over a period of time that they would want that

KATA: Mhmm

WALKER: I was like "oh, Lord." I don't know…

KATA: Is this something that you might be interested in if we shared this with AFGE, this interview?

WALKER: I don't mind. It's public knowledge, right

KATA: Well, I think they deserve to know. Alright, well I'm going to stop the tape. Thank you.